Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: DanielMcIntyre on November 01, 2001, 09:40:00 AM
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We'll I finally think i've figured out the P38.
I tried to fly the P38 a couple of days ago, 2 sorties, both ended up no kills finished by embarrassing augers. P38 story of my life.
Happened again today, dive on con, lock, auger. So I mapped my Elev up and Elev down keys to my joystick and started flying without combat trim. Result: 18 kills, 5 deaths, only 2 deaths from combat, 2 from lack of fuel and some tree's, and 1 I forgot to disable combat trim and augered.
So am I right in assuming combat trim porks the P38 to death? Or am I missing something here?
couple of other questions:
1. what are the autotrim modes i've heard about.
2. After a coalt merge with a La7 or Yak can P38 escape by outclimbing and what would be suggested climbrate?
3. When in a slow turnfight with say a G6 vs P38, when do I deploy flaps, how much up trim should I use and how many notches of flap?
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I think you may be on to somehting with the P-38. I found the P-38 to be nice now. Still compresses worse than most imo but m,anageable. Yet others said it was still a squeak in compression. I think they use CT also.
auto trim level = X
auto trim angle - shift X
Those are the only two I use. I maunally trim my planes for the most part. And I trim to keep the "ball" centered in the slip guage. That way my shots are on target. I may use extra trim to help move my plane in any specific direction; more up trim to climb, left trim for roll or turn left, etc etc. Only experience with doing it yourself willshow what I mean.
As for LA7? I can easily out turn most I encounter when low and slow. I use one, maybe two at most, notches of flaps. Same with any other plane but an N1K2 or Spit. I also will use the speed flap/break to help turn when I'm going too fast and want to make a lead turn into a bogy. I release it 1/2 way thru the turn or just before I start to level out so it does not conitnue to slow me down more. It's a good working last ditch maneuver and not one I would advise using in a multi-con environment.
Westy
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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p38 can eat up an la7
p38 is an awesome plane
dont use combat trim it takes away the feeling of flight. in fact i would advise against using even auto level angle etcera, but i use them but i shouldnt, they also take away the feeling of flight.
in the p38 being slow is a good thing with anything but a niki or a spit or a zeke. it accelerates pretty welll and has good flaps for turning.
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with a g6 you can kill it easily using flaps, start out with 2 notches and dump em all to scoot over the top then nail him. against the la7 you can do well also. the yak is much tougher i really hate fighting yaks. it is fast and accelerates like a crack monkey and small and turns well. i would stay away from yaks.
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combat trim makes you lose E on the vertical, dont use CTrim with the 38. Lately ive been using C-Trim BUT always disabling it before going into a vertical fight.
The only sure way you have to defeat a yak or an la7 in a 38 is to get them in the deck and stall fight them. Yak is always the hardest, but if you play the E game and wait until you get a true firing solution, you'll win...if you keep trying to go for a shot, leading the yak on your sights, you will lose.
The thing you have to be extremely careful in the 38 is the bs flap-induced spin and of course, compression and getting hit in your glass tail ;).
"After a coalt merge with a La7 or Yak can P38 escape by outclimbing and what would be suggested climbrate"
Not possible. they outclimb you. They can turn 180 and get ya. Once you merge with them, you're commited.
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]
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I dont see how you guys fly this AC, as ive stated in a few other p38 lightening post.. But you guys that do it, do it damn well.
I sit down in this thing, in every turn i stall out, cant turn with anyone, cant out loop anything. normaly dieing a quick painless 1 ping 2 engine dead death.
im used to the jug, i take it these 2 birds dont fly the same.
I think i might try the manual trim tips here out in my jug though, see how she like it. I use it now to avoid compression but not to manuever .
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Let me clarify what combat trim does, and when you should and should not use it.
Combat trim, as I understand it, is basically a table of trim conditions that map to various airspeeds, but it's not a large table, so most of the time it doesn't trim you exactly right. These trim conditions are for a clean airframe well within the normal flight envelope. What I mean by that is, it seems that combat trim doesn't have trim settings for very slow or very fast speeds, only the more middle range. For example in the P-38, I would say to disable CT and use manual trim under 200MPH or over 400MPH. Luckily, the second you hit the manual trim key, the CT is disengaged, and you can re-engage it again by using any of the three auto trim modes. You can have the best of both worlds. :) The P38 is probably the plane that will use CT the least, since it's "normal flight envelope" is pretty small between high speed for it and when you start deploying combat flaps. Other planes like the Jug have a much wider range where you want to use CT... I use CT from about 180 to almost 500 in the Jug. In most planes, in most situations, you can just leave CT on all the time and be competitive, but the Fork Tailed Devil seems to be more sensitive than most.
CT is useful for BnZ type fighting where you are rapidly changing speeds within your normal flight envelope with a clean airframe. If you have drop tanks, it won't trim you properly. If you use flaps, it won't trim you properly. If you are flying too slowly, it won't trim you properly. Etc. So what I would do is as I get to the top of a loop as I engage and my speed is dropping below 200, I would pop a notch of flap and dial in a bit of nose-up trim to compensate. That disables my CT and I manual trim for the rest of the fight, or unless I'm in a situation where I use my auto-trim modes.
Now, the question was, how do you figure out how much to trim at a given speed, altitude, and flap position? The best way is to use the auto trim modes to do it for you!
Take a look at this article I wrote a while back. It has not been updated for combat trim, but the basics still apply for using the auto trim modes and manual trim settings: http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/trim.htm (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/trim.htm)
The bottom line is that you will have to learn your aircraft so that you have a rough idea how much manual trim you need to dial in as you slow to low speed, and deploy varying degrees of flap. The only way to do this is to test. What you do is pick an altitude and fuel state, and get yourself there in your plane. Now decide on a speed... say 150 IAS if that is your sustained turning speed. Now you figure in a turn fight you'll have 3 notches of flap out at this speed... deploy that. Next type in ".speed 150" into the radio. Engage your auto-trim for speed mode (the one you use to climb) and let the plane stabilize... it is now perfectly trimmed for that altitude, speed, weight, and flap condition. Next you disengage the auto-trim mode and pull in your flaps, but try to keep the plane at the same speed by climbing a bit and/or cutting throttle. Once you have stabilized, use your manual trim to trim the plane out to fly at that speed... record how much trim you had to use. So if you were clean at 150 and dropped the same amount of flaps, you would need to put in that amount of trim in the opposite direction to compensate. Next let the plane speed up to your normal cruising speed, say 250. You'll have to hold it level, because as you speed up your trim state will get out of whack. Once you are at your cruise speed, trim the plane for level flight again manually, and again record how much trim you had to dial in. You now know roughly how much trim you have to use as you change from 150 to 250 MPH at that altitude, flap condition... etc. When you are doing this, don't worry about anything but elevator trim at first, and don't get too exact... just get close. You can also judge it by looking at your trim indicators instead of counting keystrokes if you like.
The point of all of that is not to know EXACTLY how many keystrokes of trim you need for every situation, but just to learn roughly how much you are going to need to adjust when using manual trim when you change speeds or deploy flaps. A key point is knowing which direction to trim when you deploy flaps, and roughly how much. Each plane is going to work a bit differently, so the best way to figure this out is to test it in your favourite ride.
Personally, I just leave CT on all the time, and disable it by using manual trim when I am extremely slow and using flaps, or when I am diving to INSANE SPEED (TM). Actually I'll normally use auto-trim angle or auto-trim for speed to get perfectly trimmed INSANE SPEED (TM) dives.
Does that make sense? Questions?
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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The only way for a 38 to beat a Yak-9U or a La7 by speed or climb is to either be very high, ie 25k+ (even then, good luck) or to get them very slow and turning with you.
Like someone else said earlier in the thread, once you merge, its turn or die.
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Thanx for responses guys, very helpful.
:D
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Originally posted by Aamon:
I dont see how you guys fly this AC, as ive stated in a few other p38 lightening post.. But you guys that do it, do it damn well.
My thoughts exactly b4 I disabled CTrim. I'm P38 newbie and don't really know what i'm doing but I'm flying it like a Tiffie and it seems to be working okay. Except P38 suprisingly seems to be superior to the typhoon in lots of ways.
Tac I havn't noticed the glass tail thing yet, I got hit by N1K yesterday from my 6, 2 pings, no damage, got flak hit, only oil damage one engine, spit got me in turnfight with G10, took lots of mg hits b4 my tail came off? Tiffie has glass tail as well, I think worse then P38.
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what does combat trim do???? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
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IMO the old days of a p38 icon = free lunch sign are gone.
A low one vs a La7 with speed is still toast.
But a high one is a MUCH larger threat IMO than it used to be. Plus it seems to take a lot more damage to put one down.
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dont use combat trim in the p38.
trust me ive been around the block in the p38 a few times :)
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Originally posted by bruce:
what does combat trim do???? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Read up the post some, lephturn explains it.
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mmmm +) a slow 38 is dead vs any slow Yak, pilots being equal of course. The Yak will outturn it, out accelerate it, outclimb it, outroll it...
SKurj
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Anyone else think CT is a little less accurate in 1.08? My hellcat seemed to wanna roll to the left with CT on at almost all speeds. might have just been me and the joystick calibration tho... *shrugs* Haven't played much so I don't know for sure.
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Auto trim working well but you have to know what it do... Auto trim working only when you are very slow/stall.... so many 109 and other elites pilots turn very well with manual trim at high speeds.
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at what speeds do you deploy your flaps at? In Air Warrior I was used to using 1 notch of flaps at 200-175knots and 2 notches if I got around 150knots. Same in here?
Originally posted by Westy MOL:
I think you may be on to somehting with the P-38. I found the P-38 to be nice now. Still compresses worse than most imo but m,anageable. Yet others said it was still a squeak in compression. I think they use CT also.
auto trim level = X
auto trim angle - shift X
Those are the only two I use. I maunally trim my planes for the most part. And I trim to keep the "ball" centered in the slip guage. That way my shots are on target. I may use extra trim to help move my plane in any specific direction; more up trim to climb, left trim for roll or turn left, etc etc. Only experience with doing it yourself willshow what I mean.
As for LA7? I can easily out turn most I encounter when low and slow. I use one, maybe two at most, notches of flaps. Same with any other plane but an N1K2 or Spit. I also will use the speed flap/break to help turn when I'm going too fast and want to make a lead turn into a bogy. I release it 1/2 way thru the turn or just before I start to level out so it does not conitnue to slow me down more. It's a good working last ditch maneuver and not one I would advise using in a multi-con environment.
Westy
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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stall loops possible in a P-38 in here or hammerheads?
Originally posted by Zigrat:
with a g6 you can kill it easily using flaps, start out with 2 notches and dump em all to scoot over the top then nail him. against the la7 you can do well also. the yak is much tougher i really hate fighting yaks. it is fast and accelerates like a crack monkey and small and turns well. i would stay away from yaks.
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Hi Ack-ack. What speed? I'm not sure as I most often never take my eyes off the bogy. I have a good feel for when the plane is slow by how it handles and also in relation to the external world - other planes, trees, clouds or landscape going by. The stall buzzer comes in handy too :) Soon as I hear that one notch, maybe two go out, then I try and finish my manuever or if it's goiong off bad enough I hurry and try to recover airspeed.
About the only time I consciously look at my airspeed in combat is when I go verticle and I'm thinking of doing a hammer head on the guy climbing up my "6." I use a sudden push of rudder (either direction depending on the other planes engine torque direction) at about 90mph.
Westy
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How much flaps do you have dialed in when you do the hammerhead?
Originally posted by O'Westy:
Hi Ack-ack. What speed? I'm not sure as I most often never take my eyes off the bogy. I have a good feel for when the plane is slow by how it handles and also in relation to the external world - other planes, trees, clouds or landscape going by. The stall buzzer comes in handy too :) Soon as I hear that one notch, maybe two go out, then I try and finish my manuever or if it's goiong off bad enough I hurry and try to recover airspeed.
About the only time I consciously look at my airspeed in combat is when I go verticle and I'm thinking of doing a hammer head on the guy climbing up my "6." I use a sudden push of rudder (either direction depending on the other planes engine torque direction) at about 90mph.
Westy
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I use none. I just quickly turn the nose back around around on one side, versus flipping backwards (as in a loop), over onto them. If it's a "flip over" I'll start the flipp/loop and emmediatly pop one notch and by the time I'm inverted I'll have two, maybe three notches out. Coming around and pointing down I dial those back in as fast as I can. Not a lot different from AW actually.
Westy
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so stall loops are also possible in here? you use rudders to yaw nose down on hammerhead or just let gravity do the work?
Originally posted by O'Westy:
I use none. I just quickly turn the nose back around around on one side, versus flipping backwards (as in a loop), over onto them. If it's a "flip over" I'll start the flipp/loop and emmediatly pop one notch and by the time I'm inverted I'll have two, maybe three notches out. Coming around and pointing down I dial those back in as fast as I can. Not a lot different from AW actually.
Westy
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You can do both ack-ack. You can nose the plane up until it reaches 10 mph, the plane will, all by itself, drop the nose for you. Pulling lightly on stick with a few flaps helps you flip the plane faster.
You may also use rudders to flip the plane sideways. Its a bit trickier, but its faster than flipping plane by pulling the nose up or down in many occasions. I particularly like to cut 1 engine and rudder to that side, pulling nose up or down to prevent a spin (you must have at least 2 notchs of flaps down or you WILL enter a flat spin). It makes the 38 turn almost instantly.
You like P-38? We the only (so far) P-38/Twin engined squad in AH. We suck, we whine, we LOVE the P38. ;)
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Well geez after reading all this about the P38 and doing the hammerheads and the like I have to really try those out tonight after work :D
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Tried the P38 again for a long time, first time 2 days ago. Never use combat trim in any plane, only legitimate in some planes IMO, better to trim it your self, allways gives you more controll aswell. P38 Extremely good IMO, started out with 4 sorties, died once without kills. Landed 3 of them with 3, 3, 6, kill sorties, no vulching.
It can outclimb most things and it can hang a long time on the props. Very poor in high speed though, specially at high alt, locks up at 420Mph TAS at 30k (atleast mine did).
Allso, glass tail thing seem to be gone, it was there before for sure. I took lots of hits in some of those sorties, RTB:ed a few times with plane all shot up but 5+ 20mm. Great plane for sure, turns on a dime :)
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Oh yeah I like the P-38. Flew the P-38J in Air Warrior for 8 years. It doesn't feel right sitting in any other planes, unless it's a Me110C.
Will ammo load effect things when doing either a stall loop or the hammerhead?
What is the best internal fuel load for the P-38L? 50% and two drop tanks?
Originally posted by Tac:
You can do both ack-ack. You can nose the plane up until it reaches 10 mph, the plane will, all by itself, drop the nose for you. Pulling lightly on stick with a few flaps helps you flip the plane faster.
You may also use rudders to flip the plane sideways. Its a bit trickier, but its faster than flipping plane by pulling the nose up or down in many occasions. I particularly like to cut 1 engine and rudder to that side, pulling nose up or down to prevent a spin (you must have at least 2 notchs of flaps down or you WILL enter a flat spin). It makes the 38 turn almost instantly.
You like P-38? We the only (so far) P-38/Twin engined squad in AH. We suck, we whine, we LOVE the P38. ;)
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thanks for the tip. got my first rope-a-dope this morning on a 190 but got waxed by Edbert on my 2nd rope attempt. It's nice to see that the P-38 behaves just as good in the vertical as it did in AW. I think I just have to get used to the flight model some more and then I'll be back to my former self in the P-38 :)
<S>
Originally posted by O'Westy:
I use none. I just quickly turn the nose back around around on one side, versus flipping backwards (as in a loop), over onto them. If it's a "flip over" I'll start the flipp/loop and emmediatly pop one notch and by the time I'm inverted I'll have two, maybe three notches out. Coming around and pointing down I dial those back in as fast as I can. Not a lot different from AW actually.
Westy
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I guess i am flying p38 the hard way and will keep doing so.. always use combat trim.. but still seem to kill spits/la7's. Not using combat trim may the way too go but i've learned to much about the plane while using it to switch to not using it.... I do not know if you guys know but i fly with mouse.. and does not make it easy to find trim/gun/ flaps all at the same time. I am planning on buying stick as soon as i find a good one.. Then MAYBE i will fly without combat trim.. and might make me a lot better p38 flier.. which i need to become deparately :)
=Lazer= :mad: :mad:
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Combat Trim was added because trim tabs are NOT primary flight controls. Period. Pure Fact. No counter argument.
However, this FM makes trim tabs very powerful control surfaces. Thus, to maximize aircraft performance in AH, you need to stay in trim as best you can.
The manual trim mode is the most effective way to trim. Used well, it gives optimal performance. However, it is not the easiest to become proficient at nor is it the easiest to use, particularly if you do not have programmable stick/throttle stuff.
CT was added to provide a simpler way of trimming to adequate but not optimal standards and to give the guys with simpler flight input devices a bit of help.
IMO, and IMO only, I think it was programmed in as an admission that trimming had become significantly more important in the FM than it should be due to the fact that TRIM IS NOT A PRIMARY FLIGHT CONTROL. ;)
Read this thread for a detailed discussion. Andy Bush KNOWS what he is talking about.
How Trim Works (or Should) (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000345)
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Toad: I agree with you. I also think the way trim is implemented in AH has something to say.
I don't know whether trim would help control a plane like say the 109G10 at high speed, when normal controls are locked up. Not sure if this happened in real life.
Having said that, being a 190 pilot, it is exceedingly rare for me to use trim to control my aircraft. . However, getting the trim reasonably right is vital for living and killing.
CT takes away the edge, makes the plane seem dull and bland. It makes you unable to ride the edge, and when you're doing a suicide dive/pullup to save a squaddie where only inches separate you and the ground, that isn't good enough.
I suppose some planes are better with CT on than others. With 190's, it feels like you've neutered them.