Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mauser on May 19, 2000, 04:46:00 AM
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Hiya folks,
I was wondering if any of you have tips on getting the nose around in the 190. When fighting anything, I'll dive to gain speed till about 300 before I attempt to reverse. When I do reverse, I go vertical (from the well known advice on NOT to horizontal turn a 190) to immelman or wingover. I find that I have to extend till at least d2.4k before I feel comfortable enough to reverse. If I don't wait long enough, the con usually has a better ability to get his nose on me at the merge while I'm struggling to accelerate and get the nose pointed in his general direction. A lot of times, I get killed or badly damaged by snap shots this way. So what do you do when you reverse? Chop the throttle, use rudder, flaps? Extend till you're faster than 300?
Heh.. and no, I don't want to fly another plane (except for the 109 once in a while). I've gotten way too accustomed to that roll rate, and she's my fav. bird anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mauser
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The Fighting Meese
&
Provisional BVD - Bishopsverteidigung
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Sounds to me like you have the right idea already. Don't chop throttle, you will just wallow around. I drop a notch of flap to help bring it around, but other than that do exactly as you described.
From what you have described it seems you are in a general nose-to-nose situation. My advice is that if you are co-alt when you start, don't even reverse unless you have plenty of E- then zoom as high as you can after the merge. If you get a good shot on the second merge, great. If not, you better bug out for a little room or escape.
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Hi --not the expert on the 190 but heresz a few things you might use. First--having more altitude than your enemy is a must. Historically however the 190A wasnt a good perfromer above 15K. But However for AH I would suggest more alt. Use this plane for pure Boom and zoom. Out of all the fighters here I believe the 190 has the worst turn rate. picking your shot is important. setup your attack so that you are coming from the rear.If you have to turn out of plane very much get a good tracking shot then it is best to just zoom back up using ALL your built up energy to regain the alt you had. DONT SPEND ALL YOUR ENERGY MANUEVERING FOR A SHOT. Obviously this is a conservative approach, some good 190 pilots do it completely differently. Remember your plus's--you have an outstanding roll rate, you can split esse for an escape very fast (try not to use the split esse as an offensive manuever) you have great speed, perhaps only beaten by the P51. This works for me, I invariably make mistakes though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) You might speak with RAM as he flies the 190 alot.
hope this helps a little
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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I've seen Hristos outturn a Spit during a high speed snapshot.
Was amusing.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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I've found the nose gets around pretty quick when I blow the empennage off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh God I guess I'll give a serious answer. I don't fly it much but when I do, lots of planes die except mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Best way to reverse is by going straight up. Practice zooming as high as you can and reversing (hammerhead, flop, whatever works for you).
Flat turns in the 190 will get you out of energy in a hurry.
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Originally posted by funked:
I don't fly it much but when I do, lots of planes die except mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like .73 more of 1 death dies more than he, (1.73 K/D ratio) LOL!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maybe you should fly the FW more Funked! Join the "dark side"...you've been there, did that, we'll take ya back! No Barbie and Ken questions asked!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-19-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-19-2000).]
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I'm probably totally unqualified to comment on 190...but, hehe, that hasn't stopped me yet...so here goes...The key question i have is relative energy state on the zoom...the 190 drivers who I see doing well manage there E...Ideally they're topping out over the con...but within a close range...1.5-2.0...so that they're reversing right on top of con while he is still "wallowing"...the 190 is an ideal rope a dope ride...and if you can grasp the histro "slice back" it's capable of unreal vertical moves.
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Thanks for your tips guys... I'll have to work on remembering to hit the flaps and stuff when I attempt to reverse. My tendency right now is to get so caught up and excited when I get into a fight that I forget all the other controls and just use whatever I can grab immediately, i.e. the stick and throttle. From what I've read so far in previous posts and your replies, I shouldn't try to press the attack after a couple of passes. Generally I find that to be true. However, I remember one memorable (in my eyes anyway) fight I had when we were still in beta. And, LOL it was against funked in his spitIX, a low alt 1 on 1. I think I had a bit of alt advantage. We went at least 3 merges, one of them with both of us firing HO but missing. I would be diving at him and then zooming when he was in the middle of his reverse (don't remember exactly). I remember sweating to get the nose around to him after the reverse. Finally the fight was over when I had a joystick spike which gave the "Don't move your contols so rapidly" message and basically forced me to fly straight and level in his sights.
I've heard about the sliceback in reading a little article by DocDoom from AGW on flying the 190. Steep climb, opposite rudder to bleed speed. Then simultaneously roll into climb and kick rudder into the turn. That's how I remember it, haven't really done it successfully the few time's I've tried. Maybe I wait to long to get into the turn b/c I'm wallowing most of the time. I've never seen Hristos do it as I haven't seen him much when I'm on. One day maybe I will.
mauser
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RIght now I have not many time...but I'll be back in 1.5 hours and be glad to give you some tips.
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]
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Ok Back...
Lets start with some myths and facts:
Myth: the Fw190 cant turn a S$$t.
Fact: The Fw190 is the best turner over 300mph, but its very bad under 225 mph.
Myth: The Fw190 bleeds E like crazy.
Fact: The FW190 retains E well at hispeeds, very bad under 225mph.
Myth: The Fw190 cant fight a co-E engagement with hopes to escape alive.
Truth: The Fw190 can outmanouver anything that cant outrun, with the possible exception of the F4U.
Myth: The 190 has an awesome puch.
Fact: It has it, but NIki, Spitfire and Cannonhawgs have way more,as mausers are (wrong IMHO) the less powerful 20mm round here.
Myth: low speed 190 handling sucks.
Truth:low speed 190 handling is AWESOME...until you stall without warning (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).Few trimming is needed, and your rollrate rules at all speeds.Use it.
Ok...I could go on with this...but time to get the question: How to turn in Fw190?.
Answer:Loop if you have the E, High Yoyo if you havent. A low yoyo can help a lot if you are fast enough, and you **REALLY** need to turn tight (for example: a con is diving on you to kill you).
Fw190A is a killer under 15K and retains its own up to 22K or so. Over 23K it is a dead plane.
Fw190A dives like a dream, its hispeed handling is simply awesome,and its zooming is good, too. Boom and zoom tactics work well.
Lets give tips on Fw190 versus other planes, CoE at 10K:
Spitfire: Can kill it with E advantage. IF you lose it, run to home. He wont catch you.
Niki: Same with Spitfire, but more dangerous. Still you can run home if you lose your E situation.
C202:Like a SpitV, it turns on a dime. Simply deny him the turn, and zoom away. The bad thing in these planes is that when you come back, the guy is going for a HO (wise move in tactical disadvantage). But with its light weapons, C202 is not a problem in HO (Spits and nikis are other leage, tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
C205:Treat it as a SpitIX. It accelerates better, has slightly better speed, and turns a bit worse.
Me109F4: Same as SpitIX and C205...but this one climbs a bit better.
Me109G2: Dangerous. Packs a good turn, awesome acceleration and amusing climbrate, in a single pack. Still suffers of bad low speed rollrate...fw190 retains it until it stalls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). So, get him slow and outmanouver him.
La5: dangerous opponent, deck speed near that of Fw190. Still you can outmanouver it with rollrate alone, but with care, as it accelerates as a rocket.
Me109G10: This is one of the planes I most fear in Fw190. Doenst turn very well...but you turn worse than him. Its the exact opposite of the Fw190. Dives bad, has wonderful climbrate and bad rollrate. It is faster than you at all speeds so you must stay and fight. Get him slow and outmanouver it...or stay fast and try to catch him in one of those dreadful hammerheads...your choice but fights versus G10 are bad bad news for a Fw190.
P38: Its FAST...but not more than you low on the deck. turns quite well with flaps but its rollrate sucks under 250 mph...and it is a big target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
P51: faster than you at all altitudes...but I still dont fear it. low speed p51 handling is AWFUL!...you get the tip? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Typhoon: Careful with this one, its only flown by experts...runs a lot low on the deck...but bleeds E like crazy...all in all I dont fear it very much, if I handle it with care.
F4U: fw190 killer. Does all that 190 does, and does it better. It dives better, it rolls very fast, it is faster at all altitudes, it has 4 hispanos (AJJJ!!), climbs a bit better, turns way better, has combat flaps (I really miss that in a 190! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))...you cant run from it and you cant outmanouver it...Still you can fight it, F4U drivers use to go for the snapshot and the HO, and bleed E doing so...try to make him bleed E and he is dead.
Well these are some tips on fw190...it has been long but I hope this helps.
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]
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Hi All,
Darn nice reading this post, Ram your post has given me the inspiration to stay with the 109's until i feel confident in them
A great post to read from all
It sure seems to of helped me out for sure
(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/kip.jpg)
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[This message has been edited by Titanium (edited 05-20-2000).]
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Wow.. that's some great advice RAM, thank you! To tell you the truth I pretty much believed most the myths you mentioned. Especially about turning (horizontal turns). But I didn't really understand the fine print, which is the part about high speed handling. I guess that's one of the reasons why I've gotten used to the 190.. it feels more responsive to control input than most of the other aircraft. Your breakdown of plane vs. plane tips should be especially helpful. I've had similar experiences against some of the other aircraft, i.e. I'm not really affraid of spitfires (if it's a high-time pilot in it though, I'm usually dead anyway). I don't like Mustangs however, especially if they have alt on me. If I can force them to overshoot they usually have enough speed to run and keep running. Anyway, it's great to hear from you and the other pilots who have a lot more experience, I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge.
I just remembered RAM, one fight (not really a fight I guess) I had against you when we were still in free beta. I had just lifted off from F18 in a 190 to chase away a b26 when you came in with a lot more alt. Knowing I'd be toast I dove back towards the field into the shelter of the ack. I remember you didn't like that I dove into the ack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Then when I came back out you came down and stuck to my 6. I didn't know what else to do but go to guns defense. I knew I could change directions rapidly so I scissored, watching your moves and trying to break into you each time. Eventually you hit me and I had to bail, and you complimented me on my evasives (which I still appreciate coming from higher-time pilots). lol, I got compliments on my evasives from other pilots I considered a lot better than me, but I always wished I could be feared for my "kung fu", not for how I have to evade (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanx again everyone! See you up there
mauser
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Great tips, RAM.
As much as we wait for A-5, I think I am gonna stay with quad 20mm A-8. The plane is a challenge indeed. And it ain't a Quake plane too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If I have 10k alt or at least 300 IAS with me, I do not fear other planes in A-8.
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LOL Rip, my Fw 190 figure is more like 4:1. But I use that plane for air-superiority. However about 1/3 to 1/2 of my missions in the other birds are Jabo missions, so my overall K/D is kind of skewed by all the ack deaths, and getting shot down low and slow after a successful bomb run, etc.
But you have a good point - Fw 190 is a much easier plane to maintain a high K/D in than a Spitfire. However the ultimate IMHO remains the P-51D.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-22-2000).]
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Hehe, titanium (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) in fact IMHO 190 is an easier plane to fly that 109...but much harder to fight with it. As I didnt had rudder pedals until a couple of months ago, I had to go only with my hated 2-button-and-throttle yoke alone...and 109 needs a lot of rudder input only to fly it.
But yes, in a G10 you rule the engagement, when to disengage and when to re-engage. with a Fw190 your only chance to break a fight against faster planes in advantage is dive right to the deck and pray for help as you run...or stay and fight...and die (or not) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I usually do the last choice...thats why I use to die a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mauser, I was glad to give those tips. I love 190 a lot and Its good to see that people start to like it...until only 2-3 weeks it was a forgotten plane, even in JG2...most people flew G10, but when they discovered the 190 a lot of them changed their mind (but still not planes LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
I do remember that fight. Yes I do remember that ack "problem" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...but is not a serious problem for me any more, as nearly 33% of my current kills are diving through the ack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I do remember those wonderful evasive moves, so dont worry, keep flying the 190 and you'll learn its ways. Is a tough plane but a rewarding one, too.
Whenever you want gimme a call and we'll go into TA and fly some H2H and I'd be glad to give you some more tips on it.
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-22-2000).]
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RAM, one note about FW190 VS. F4U.
The Hog IS possibly the best FW killer there is, with the possible exception of the P47.
The FW has one advantage VS. the F4U, accelleration. The F4U is one of the WORST accellerating planes in AH, and the FW is one of the best. You can pull low-speed manuevers in the FW and if you can suck the F4U into slowing down, you can then use a flick-and-flee or some other manuever to gain a bit of separation and accellerate away in a shallow dive. You WILL out-run the F4U if you are both slow to start with.
I love finding FW's when I'm cruising in my F4U-1D... the one plane that can't out-turn me! Woohoo! <G>
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
RAM, one note about FW190 VS. F4U.
The Hog IS possibly the best FW killer there is, with the possible exception of the P47.
The FW has one advantage VS. the F4U, accelleration. The F4U is one of the WORST accellerating planes in AH, and the FW is one of the best
Lehpt I used to think just that...until I saw Bee's numbers on his test on acceleration...the only planes that really put their head over the rest were La5 and me109G10...F4U accelerates worse than a Fw190...but not enough to make the difference be noted.
And about P47...well...we'll see. I dont know very well P47D's speed numbers at altitudes and on the deck. I dont know its wingloading compared with Fw190. I know its rollrate was very good...but that doesnt make it a 190 killer in the moment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maybe is 190 the Jug killer, not the inverse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
hehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Posted by RAM..."low speed 51 handling is awful".
"Nothing outturns a 190 at speed (above 300)", or something like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Flown correctly, the 51 will not be slow(you must be fightin rookies RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
If you believe the 190 outturns a 51 above 300, come find me the next time your online and I'll disprove that theory quick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Love ya Man! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/p51drude.jpg)
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Due to the blackout code, all the planes in the game have the same turn rate and radius at 300 mph if you fly at the edge of blackout...
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Great post RAM,
I think I gonna stick to the Wuerger for a while - have to train for Dora if we ever get it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Still don't have the feeling for the 190 as I have for the G10 which I begin to fly outta the stomach - only die when I try stupid stuff (which sadly happens a lot of times)...
But still I am having a great time in the 190 - deliberatetly scissored for the first time in my life yesterday and it worked!!! against a P51 that is - you got the (manouver-) kill though but it was fun.
One note about the P51 - don't underestimate its low speed handling. If flown by a pro it's deadly at all speeds. I remember Hangtime (now that's a pro) to outturn me in a Nikki (flew it very much in Beta) in a low altitude, low speed fight. I even posted a thread on that subject loooong time ago. When using small yo-yo's a P51 can keep up with mostly anything out there. Even in a low level-flat-turn it can keep up with a G10. I discovered the use of flaps in that one... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Although I don't feel the slightest sympathy towards *any* allied plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) the P51 surprised me with its overall fighting abilites. The fact that mostly don't fear it is that a lot of below-ace-level pilot fly it nowadays - and then a pony is quickly brought into very bad (or good for the opponent) situation... ooooh - and I don't like them running away from my G10!!
Won't say a word about the cannon hog - tending to ingore it - I am really sorry for all those D-model drivers out there!
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~Kirin~
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/kirin.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/home.htm)
[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 05-24-2000).]
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As an F4U-1D driver RAM, I've had smart 190 pilots flick-and-flee on me many times in AH. I can't catch them if we start slow. If an FW gets the fight down under 200 with less than 5k of diving room under them, the FW can check out with even 2.0K separation in my experience.
I've not seen the accelleration figures you mention, but I've had to give up chasing FW's that bugged out on me many times.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Originally posted by Rude:
Posted by RAM..."low speed 51 handling is awful".
It is, rude... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) it rolls SLOW!, it turns BAD!...and it accelerates very bad.
Fw190 cant turn a toejam ,but the roll and acceleration gives it the upper hand over a P51 if both are slow.
"Nothing outturns a 190 at speed (above 300)", or something like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
CC, Fw190 high speed E retention is the best in AH...so at say 400mph I can start a 2G sustained turn and I'll make the enemy bleed E.
P51 is near 190 regarding that, yes...but still 190 is better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Flown correctly, the 51 will not be slow(you must be fightin rookies RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Agreed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but not-so-rookies still go down to 250 mph...and I can outmanouver a 51 at those speeds and win a snapshot. (other thing is that I can take it and fire...I usually have no hands to fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) This FUC"%ˇ$NG yoke has only 2 buttons).
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Ram,
Out of curiosity, do you use IAS ro TAS in all above comments?
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All speed references are in IAS speed. That is the "real" speed for your control surfaces, so I always do the numbers in IAS.
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Hi there and especially RAM!
Now this post was great! Im a n ewbie and id like to see some of these comparements for all the planes in AH. You know ive seen alot concerning War birds or whatéver, but in this thingie u are supposed to find out yourselfes.
I could really use it since i ran more than once into a fight choosing the completely wrong tactic - guess what happened :-))
So if some of the vets would please just set up a Page or whatever where the planes can be compared to each other?
`To me it would be great help, dont know what other newbies think.
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CU
Purzel
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HI, Purzel...
SO far the only page focused on aces HIgh's aircraft is Mandoble's...I was given the chance in do the comments on Me109s , and Mandoble has done a great work in the other planes. THere are a couple of them still to be commented, tho.
The bad thing is that the Page is in Spanish, as both Mandoble and I are spanish. I think he wanted to do the translation into english but he hasnt found anyone to do the translation...(our english really sucks so we arent able to do it)
Anyway I'll give you the URL. Hope this helps.
http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/ (http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/)
See you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-31-2000).]
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You for got La5, la5 is scary in the 190. and i dont think the f4u is a problem, i can whoop on it now. Oh an p51, i have more fear of it than you.
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La5----->nyam nyam (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you follow my advices you will kill it on first pass or run away. No fear here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
F4U----->does everything the Fw190 does,and it does better.
P51----->fast but you can outmaneouver it. If met coE I dont fear P51 in a Fw190.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) of course you may have your ways to combat them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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If Daniko is still hangind around the board, it'd be interesting to hear his tactics. Daniko and a couple of other guys (from WB, can't remember who they were - Rudu I think was one) are the only ones I've seen maneuver the 190 like noone else I've seen. I was flying a Nik in AH when I encountered Daniko. Although I won that encounter, it was damn close. The other encounters in WB were similar experiences where I was flying a spit9.
The maneuver goes something like this, although I've never been able to duplicate it:
1. nose-to-nose merge
2. quick zoom high, roll and head back down for another nose-to-nose merge.
3. repeat 2 until you kill 'em.
At least this was how it looked to me. Step 2 was amazingly fast. I've tried many times to do this without success.
If these guys hang around this board, it'd be cool to know how they do it.
Ex.