Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jamusta on January 12, 2005, 12:31:06 PM
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Im not sure if this has been brought up before, but I want to talk about suicide jabo nerds.... It has been brought up in the "something great" thread about penalties for suicide bombers and jabo's. Those that go straight down and follow their bombs into the intended targets. Is it possible to deduct perks for those that do this? Say like 5 perks charged if you auger a few seconds after you release bombs. Not if you are shot down but auger. I know I lose a wing here and there to ack while diving to target which is expected.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Im not sure if this has been brought up before, but I want to talk about suicide jabo nerds.... It has been brought up in the "something great" thread about penalties for suicide bombers and jabo's. Those that go straight down and follow their bombs into the intended targets. Is it possible to deduct perks for those that do this? Say like 5 perks charged if you auger a few seconds after you release bombs. Not if you are shot down but auger. I know I lose a wing here and there to ack while diving to target which is expected.
No problem except that we run a mission we call "Clown Cars". We all grab a ki-61, and go attack a CV. We dive to 500 mph or so, drop, and strike the CV deck. It's our tribute to all those 18-year-old Japanese kids who died doing the same thing in WW2.
Oh, yeah...we do type "banzai" on Ch 200 before tipping in...
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That would penalize a lot of newbies who do it unintentionally tho....
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Jam, I see what your trying to do, and as much as I admire what you're trying here it just wont work.
You can't make people care and you can't entice them into using their brains.
Regardless of the "rewards" felt when a great fight is won, or a mission accomplished, some just do not care for them.
Your always going to have people who suicide bomb, always going to have dive bombing 17's and alike, there will always be runners and HO'ers. Its the nature of the game. And there will always be the select few who value a dog fight and value the knowledge and graditude brought forth through practicing ACM.
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Originally posted by RacrX
That would penalize a lot of newbies who do it unintentionally tho....
That was my point in the 'something great' thread. Is there a way to determine that the plane has compressed and there is no way out of the dive. Thing is I've seen suicides that were no way a compression the angle is to shallow. As far as the newbies, we all were at one time and some kinda penalty, loss of perks, not letting them carry ord on their next sortie or something like that would force them to learn how to jabo. Right now they get all the payoff and none of the risk.
Oh, another thought, if you attempted to pull out of the dive and missed the target with your plane then that would not count. If you deliberatly dove into the target with no attempt to change your heading them yes, you get penalized!
Oh and another thing, you should also get this:
SYSTEM:{insert gameID} Is a scumbag suicide dweeb!
Or something a bit more PC. I couldn't think of anything myself.
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I kind of think the pork and auger thing is not as real as we would like to think. Sure some people end up hitting the grownd but I am sure it is not intentional. I can't see one reason to not pull back on the stick. Come to think of it, I don;t see it happen that often. I think it followes the same exageration about diving buffs. 2.5 years in the game and I have seen it twice maybe??? I am sure it happens but I don;t think it is that often as we like to tell ourselfs
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Originally posted by streetstang
Jam, I see what your trying to do, and as much as I admire what you're trying here it just wont work.
You can't make people care and you can't entice them into using their brains.
Regardless of the "rewards" felt when a great fight is won, or a mission accomplished, some just do not care for them.
Your always going to have people who suicide bomb, always going to have dive bombing 17's and alike, there will always be runners and HO'ers. Its the nature of the game. And there will always be the select few who value a dog fight and value the knowledge and graditude brought forth through practicing ACM.
Morph, I love ya man, but...
You're just going to have to realize that both sides of this argument can't be reduced to "I'm right, you're wrong". There really are different ways of looking at it. Not right, not wrong, just different. If we could take the absolutist value judgements out of the arguments, there might be progress. As it is, you are building a fence.
I hate fences, and try to tear them down, and love to yell "neener-neener" at the guys who build them.
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Originally posted by rshubert
No problem except that we run a mission we call "Clown Cars". We all grab a ki-61, and go attack a CV. We dive to 500 mph or so, drop, and strike the CV deck. It's our tribute to all those 18-year-old Japanese kids who died doing the same thing in WW2.
Oh, yeah...we do type "banzai" on Ch 200 before tipping in...
How appropriate.
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I am newbie
I am trying to JABO and ground strafe, I am getting better, but I still auger sometimes. I do not have perks anyway so IF they are taken it does not matter. So I cannot fly the Jet bomber
I have seen a lot of posts about making penalties for this and that. In the last game I played folks wanted those kind of things also.
Beware the law of unintended consequences when changing the rules. basiically the player base needs to police themselves. Peer pressure will do more to straighten things out than rules. If you do not like they way guys fly then do not fly with them. Do not fly against them either.
If they attack the base you are at go to another, it is not like there are not any others and if they up and do lame stuff at the base you are attacking, then attack another. Pretty soon they will get bored attacking bases with no fight or flying around bases with no attackers. Believe me it works. We use to just stop fighting the guys who were lame and and just let them shoot us down. They got bored real quick.
Maybe someone could post a list of the lame stuff ( with explinations) for us new guys. A lot new guys will do it cause they see vets do it. If you do not call them on it then they think it is buisness as usual.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I kind of think the pork and auger thing is not as real as we would like to think. Sure some people end up hitting the grownd but I am sure it is not intentional. I can't see one reason to not pull back on the stick. Come to think of it, I don;t see it happen that often. I think it followes the same exageration about diving buffs. 2.5 years in the game and I have seen it twice maybe??? I am sure it happens but I don;t think it is that often as we like to tell ourselfs
Well, I'm only in my 3rd months and I've seen it several times. I've seen the radar tower hit from a 20 degree angle. Your telling me that's just a screw up? Could be, maybe I'm to suspicious, but I didn't see any attempt to miss the thing.
I think one of the main issues we have is that death has no pain here. If there was some penalty for crashing your plane into ground targets (CV's too) then the newbies would spend a bit more time learning how to do it instead of just crashing and upping a new plane.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
How appropriate.
Well, we're doing it for the jollies. We get a big kick out of it.
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Originally posted by streetstang
Jam, I see what your trying to do, and as much as I admire what you're trying here it just wont work.
You can't make people care and you can't entice them into using their brains.
Regardless of the "rewards" felt when a great fight is won, or a mission accomplished, some just do not care for them.
Your always going to have people who suicide bomb, always going to have dive bombing 17's and alike, there will always be runners and HO'ers. Its the nature of the game. And there will always be the select few who value a dog fight and value the knowledge and graditude brought forth through practicing ACM.
The runners, HOers, dive bombing 17's don't bother me anywhere near as much as these guys do.
You are right reward is a poor insentive but penalty is a great insentive. I think it would make people more careful while dive bombing. I just don't know if the game could be made to do this.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Well, we're doing it for the jollies. We get a big kick out of it.
No doubt. Do you have to take meds when ya watch the grass grow to keep from overexerting yourself?
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Originally posted by Aubrey
I am newbie
I am trying to JABO and ground strafe, I am getting better, but I still auger sometimes. I do not have perks anyway so IF they are taken it does not matter. So I cannot fly the Jet bomber
I have seen a lot of posts about making penalties for this and that. In the last game I played folks wanted those kind of things also.
Beware the law of unintended consequences when changing the rules. basiically the player base needs to police themselves. Peer pressure will do more to straighten things out than rules. If you do not like they way guys fly then do not fly with them. Do not fly against them either.
If they attack the base you are at go to another, it is not like there are not any others and if they up and do lame stuff at the base you are attacking, then attack another. Pretty soon they will get bored attacking bases with no fight or flying around bases with no attackers. Believe me it works. We use to just stop fighting the guys who were lame and and just let them shoot us down. They got bored real quick.
Maybe someone could post a list of the lame stuff ( with explinations) for us new guys. A lot new guys will do it cause they see vets do it. If you do not call them on it then they think it is buisness as usual.
As one who complains about this I wouldn't want a change made for change sake. It would have to be something the community feels strongly about. We have seen the result of change already for good and ill.
Thing is if they wanted to shoot at us we wouldn't be complaning.
It's the guy who dives in at 500 MPH, fires a full savlo of rockets into the VH and then crashes his plane into the building that annoys us.
I'm sure the lame stuff has been posted here numerous times.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Well, I'm only in my 3rd months and I've seen it several times. I've seen the radar tower hit from a 20 degree angle. Your telling me that's just a screw up? Could be, maybe I'm to suspicious, but I didn't see any attempt to miss the thing.
I think one of the main issues we have is that death has no pain here. If there was some penalty for crashing your plane into ground targets (CV's too) then the newbies would spend a bit more time learning how to do it instead of just crashing and upping a new plane.
He he. Several times. Thats not enough to make it a problem that needs to be fixed. Crashing your plane on a target does not hurt the target. So, why would they do it on purpose? What if they hit the target and the clime out and away? Is it OK then? The resul is the same. Oh, wait, we will call them run dweebs then. The problem is not that they augered. The problem is that you (not personaly you) did not get a chance to kill them cause you were not fast enough, not high enough, or not at the right place. Its all about the kill message.
I hit the ground dog fihting more than they do. Should I be penalized also?
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I lawn dart quite often. Its not on purpose but sometimes I forget about p38's compression. Im sure a penalty would help remind me. As for the new guys it would show them that what they see some vets do is not appropriate. I have seen and heard plenty of folks intentionally follow their ord in just so they can hurry and up with more without having to fly back and rearm. As aubrey has pointed out as a new guy he follows the vets and thinks its a normal practice when the new guys see stuff like that. This is why I am trying to come up with solutions to change back to they way gameplay was. Maybe some will see these post and realize that this is not the way to go. Thats what I am hoping for.
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What they need to do is harden the towns and bases, making strafing down stuff impossible, set bomb arming to 5k alt minimum. Make it so CV sink only to torpedo fire, and bombing them only disables flight ops. And when it comes to gooning, if a guy captures a town, he is awarded alot of perks, and is given an option at despawn, where he would like them..fighter, bomber or gv points.
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I'd rather see a perk penalty applied to those that alt-F4 out of trouble.
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Originally posted by VWE
I'd rather see a perk penalty applied to those that alt-F4 out of trouble.
Getting to be the lastest fad, huh?
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You are right reward is a poor insentive but penalty is a great insentive
You really want to know why this would never happen? Why we wouldnt see players being penalized for doing the things Jamusta mentioned.
Because its bad business move. Atleast judging from how Hitech has handled/responded to these types of posts in the past, I can only ASSUME he would feel the same way here. IF I'm wong, and I very well could be I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pass judgment on Hitech or his business.
As far as i'm concerned, leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone.
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Originally posted by streetstang
As far as i'm concerned, leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone.
But...but...but can we still pick on ya and tell ya you are teh suck on the BBS? :D
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perk bombs 500Lbs and over.............
if they make it home no perks are lost............
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Originally posted by Jackal1
But...but...but can we still pick on ya and tell ya you are teh suck on the BBS? :D
Bahaha, you know the BB is da BB and AH is AH right?
Your answer lies within the question. :P
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Originally posted by Tilt
perk bombs 500Lbs and over.............
if they make it home no perks are lost............
Only problem I can see is what if you get zapped after a successful pullout, by someone who was just waiting for such an event and maybe was loitering around for just an opportunity.
It's happened to me a time or two and I was trying to get clear, but I was shot up trying to avoid the bounce...so under the above criterion I lose my perk points, even though I made a successful drop....hmm good reason not to bother with bombs at all, then if same rules applies to bombers and I am trying to drop on target while trying to shoot down the pesky fighters making multiple passes at me and the drones...I get flamed and lose more perk points,...hmm good reason not to bother flying bombers......
So that leaves one with furballing....hmmm not much reason to keep paying for a subscription......
Can you see where it might go?
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Originally posted by Aubrey
I am newbie
I am trying to JABO and ground strafe, I am getting better, but I still auger sometimes. I do not have perks anyway so IF they are taken it does not matter. So I cannot fly the Jet bomber
I have seen a lot of posts about making penalties for this and that. In the last game I played folks wanted those kind of things also.
Beware the law of unintended consequences when changing the rules. basiically the player base needs to police themselves. Peer pressure will do more to straighten things out than rules. If you do not like they way guys fly then do not fly with them. Do not fly against them either.
If they attack the base you are at go to another, it is not like there are not any others and if they up and do lame stuff at the base you are attacking, then attack another. Pretty soon they will get bored attacking bases with no fight or flying around bases with no attackers. Believe me it works. We use to just stop fighting the guys who were lame and and just let them shoot us down. They got bored real quick.
Maybe someone could post a list of the lame stuff ( with explinations) for us new guys. A lot new guys will do it cause they see vets do it. If you do not call them on it then they think it is buisness as usual.
Aubrey, the only lame thing done around here is all the whining
about the way other people fly or what they fly. Ignore it, this
kind of post starts every 15 minutes or so.
Mike
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Penalize a death with 1 perk but never drop total perks below zero. It will not prevent anybody from do what they want, just give them reason to stay alive.
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Originally posted by Leayme
so under the above criterion I lose my perk points, even though I made a successful drop....hmm good reason not to bother with bombs at all, then if same rules applies to bombers and I am trying to drop on target while trying to shoot down the pesky fighters making multiple passes at me and the drones...I get flamed and lose more perk points,...hmm good reason not to bother flying bombers......
So that leaves one with furballing....hmmm not much reason to keep paying for a subscription......
Can you see where it might go?
Suicide missions are as poor as suicide dive runs..........
the fact that the suicider is shot down cos he dived into a fighter swarm is as poor as the guy who slams it into the deck!
I would perk the bomb type not the bomb load.............eg if you chose 500's 1 perk, 1000's 2 perks, over 2000's 3 perks.
The way AH COADS load outs may not enable this easily (it refers to load outs as 0,1,2,3 and they may be all sorts of mixes of RL ordinance) in which case I would review the loadouts and perk all 3's to 1 perk or 4's to 2 perks.
The net result would be that suiciders would tend to choose
1)to use less effective ordinance to suicide with
2)to actually try to survive
This does have a bearing to historical circumstances (yeah I know its a game) ac rarely carried their max ordinance weights yet that is the rule in the MA rather than the exception.
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When you perk the loadout, you get the perks back when you bring home the bombs again?
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Perks Smerkz.
Perks won`t enter the picture one way or the other.
Amazes me that follks put any actual value to perks. If you play the game at all you are going to have more perks than could ever possibly be used.
10,000 perks and 50 cents will buy you a phone call.
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Appropriate penalties are already imposed.
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Originally posted by dedalos
He he. Several times. Thats not enough to make it a problem that needs to be fixed. Crashing your plane on a target does not hurt the target. So, why would they do it on purpose? What if they hit the target and the clime out and away? Is it OK then? The resul is the same. Oh, wait, we will call them run dweebs then. The problem is not that they augered. The problem is that you (not personaly you) did not get a chance to kill them cause you were not fast enough, not high enough, or not at the right place. Its all about the kill message.
I hit the ground dog fihting more than they do. Should I be penalized also?
Actually I've seen most of these from a distance. So the kill was not really the issue. If the actual crash causes no damage then I've been enlightened, wasn't aware of that being the newbee dweep that I am.:D But there is also the case where they drop ord just before they hit. As I said I wouldn't want any change put in unless it was fully vetted within the community and most agreed it was needed.
BTW, I hit the ground a lot too, and those trees, those FREEKIN' trees! I'm also a terrible jabo pilots, I need to spen some offline time and practice that.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
What they need to do is harden the towns and bases, making strafing down stuff impossible, set bomb arming to 5k alt minimum. Make it so CV sink only to torpedo fire, and bombing them only disables flight ops. And when it comes to gooning, if a guy captures a town, he is awarded alot of perks, and is given an option at despawn, where he would like them..fighter, bomber or gv points.
In the CV's, yes that would make it more realistic. At Coral Sea the Yorktown took multiple bomb hits to her flight deck but was able to limp back to pearl and even was able to take action at Midway. BUT, I doubt if we'd like it if we had to sail the CV all the was back to port to get the flight deck repaired before we could continue air ops from it. Once the flight deck is destroyed, sinking it is a way to get it to respawn and back in action.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Once the flight deck is destroyed, sinking it is a way to get it to respawn and back in action.
:D Since when can the flight deck be destroyed?
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Actually I've seen most of these from a distance. So the kill was not really the issue. If the actual crash causes no damage then I've been enlightened, wasn't aware of that being the newbee dweep that I am.:D But there is also the case where they drop ord just before they hit. As I said I wouldn't want any change put in unless it was fully vetted within the community and most agreed it was needed.
BTW, I hit the ground a lot too, and those trees, those FREEKIN' trees! I'm also a terrible jabo pilots, I need to spen some offline time and practice that.
I was not talking about you personally. The plane causes no damage and the bombs need 1K to arm, so releasing right before they hit does not help either.
The differences between exploding with their bombs and RTBing are two.
1. The guy that was not at the right position or plane (because he is cool and flies slow planes) to kill the Tiff before it dove in and was hoping to catch it on its way out, is denied the kill if he did not get close enough for the proxy.
2. The bad guy gets to up a new plane to bring more ord over. Given that pretty mach everything can be taken down in one or two passes, depending on your load, why would he come back?
The target is dead RTB or not. He already won his batle.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I was not talking about you personally. The plane causes no damage and the bombs need 1K to arm, so releasing right before they hit does not help either.
Didn't take it that way. Just how I've usually seen 'em.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Suicide missions are as poor as suicide dive runs..........
the fact that the suicider is shot down cos he dived into a fighter swarm is as poor as the guy who slams it into the deck!
Not to take the above as if it applies to myself, but I don't involve myself in suicide runs/missions, and diving into a fighter stream is something I avoid like the plague as do many others, but you still have high performance planes loitering about, looking for an easy or easier target or someone who is occupied by enemy action or trying to drop on the target and given how some bases have a quick defensive response, you are going to be facing opposition, which means either you try to accomplish your goals, which may result in you getting shot down (but you adhere to the mission parameters) or dump your ordinance and try and fight your way free, both of which initailly put you behind the eight ball against the incoming fighter(s). (No height, no speed advantage and the time it takes for you to decide and then jettison your ordinance)
I don't want to lose perk points or be penalized, because though I tried my best I was shot down by chance or by a better pilot or several pilots.
Just another perspective.