Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on January 14, 2005, 03:12:09 PM
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I noticed AOL was running a poll for the Discovery Channel to be aired in May, Titled "The Greatest American".
They are taking nominations for who you think best fills this role. I was just curious who you think is "The Greatest American".
Who, to you, best represents what it means to be American?
He may not have done the most for us. He wasnt a great leader, didnt write novels or have works of art hanging in museums. He was just a football player who was living his dream, but gave it up to serve his country in what he felt was a more significant role.
My vote goes to Pat Tillman.
Because I believe that for all the bickering and fighting we do amongst ourselves, when push comes to shove every man and woman in this country will gladly stand together in its defense, and do so proudly. Pat has come to be the icon for all the men and women in the US armed forces who had to give up their lives here to go fight over there.
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George Washington.
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Jenna Jameson
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Thomas jefferson
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Jefferson is a great nominee, but I'd have to say Franklin Roosevelt. They had to amend the constitution because of him.
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Michael Moore!
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Depends North or South America? As for North America, USA in particular
18th cent. (tie) James Madison / George Washington
19th cent. (tie)John Marshall/ Abraham Lincoln
20th cent. (tie) Winston Churchill (recieved honorary American citizenship)/Ronald Reagan
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Benjamin Franklin
:aok
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Ben Franklin has my vote. Inventor and a pimp!
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Lincoln. He sacrificed everything to keep this country and the ideals for which it stood intact.
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As for the Pat Tillman nomination....honestly he was a very brave man and deserves much of his accolades but Ted Williams postponed his hall of fame career twice (WWII and Korea)--thus under the criteria of famous people that go to war I say Williams wins hands down.
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The Rev Martin Luther King.
This man was trying to bring us all together the right way thru
the love of ones self and God.
If he had of lived the world would be better I am sure of that.
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Thomas Jefferson edges out Teddy Roosevelt.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Thomas Jefferson edges out Teddy Roosevelt.
TJ was a slave owner and for that I can't consider him.
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wombatt, he was a owner. BUT, he treated them well. I believe he even had a relationship with one of his slaves. Im NOT condoning slavery. But compared to how they were treated by plantation owners he was a better one.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
wombatt, he was a owner. BUT, he treated them well. I believe he even had a relationship with one of his slaves. Im NOT condoning slavery. But compared to how they were treated by plantation owners he was a better one.
Thats is true but ownership only encouraged the slave trade by fueling the need for more slaves.
And the fact that he screwed one of his slaves hardly makes him
man of the year LOL.
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Originally posted by wombatt
TJ was a slave owner and for that I can't consider him.
He was also a slave lover.
A scientist
A humanist
A theologian of sorts
A politician
A writer of great tomes
An Architect
and so much more...
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(http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/november2004/221104bilboard1.jpg)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
He was also a slave lover.
A scientist
A humanist
A theologian of sorts
A politician
A writer of great tomes
An Architect
and so much more...
Thats great Midnight but many good deed's do not erase the sin of slavery.
I am not saying that he did not contribute to this great country ofcoures he did but I cringe at calling him the greatest American.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
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Originally posted by JB73
Nathan Bedford Forrest
WTF!!!
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Originally posted by wombatt
Thats great Midnight but many good deed's do not erase the sin of slavery.
I am not saying that he did not contribute to this great country ofcoures he did but I cringe at calling him the greatest American.
Well, he was a man of his time, but.....
Jefferson was one of the remarkable group of Virginia liberal slaveholders who hoped to free the slaves and colonize them in Africa. In Notes on Virginia, first published in 1782 shortly after his term of office as governor, Jefferson explained his legislative program for the emancipation of all -slaves born after the passage of his law, providing for education at public expense "according to their geniuses," and thereafter to be colonized in a distant area under the protection of this country.
link (http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/slav_i.htm)
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Jefferson's Notes makes it clear that he shared the contemporary beliefs about the biological dangers of race mixture, the innate cultural differences, and the impression of undesirable physical characteristics. However, like William Byrd II, the enlightened planter of early eighteenth century Virginia, he believed that present environmental factors might, to some extent at least, account for the limited achievements of the Negro. Moreover, Jefferson urged caution and scientific investigation before anyone reached final conclusions on racial potentialities.
Indeed Midnight his heart may have been in the right place
and given the ignorance of the times he was ahead of his time in some of his thinking.
thanks for the link good read.
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Back then slavery was thought as like owning a cell phone now. You dont think twice of it, you just wish you can have one so it would make life easier. They were not thought as humans then. Trying to judge someone hundreds of years ago on their customs and traditons is like accusing Aztecs of mass human sacrifices of being wrong. Then it was ok. Now its not. His owning of slaves could have possibly been thinking towards keeping them out of the hands of bad owners.
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i don't know about "greatest american" but Benjamin Franklin is my personal hero, he was old,fat. bald,and drank too much but the french women loved him. go ben.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Back then slavery was thought as like owning a cell phone now. You dont think twice of it, you just wish you can have one so it would make life easier. They were not thought as humans then. Trying to judge someone hundreds of years ago on their customs and traditons is like accusing Aztecs of mass human sacrifices of being wrong. Then it was ok. Now its not. His owning of slaves could have possibly been thinking towards keeping them out of the hands of bad owners.
Well I just hope 400 years from now they don't look back to 1940s and say it's ok to kill the jews because they must have not known any better.
I'm sorry wrong is wrong weather it's in the 1700s or now.
God did not put a timeline on sin.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
(http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/november2004/221104bilboard1.jpg)
pull!
(you know that ol geo is thier hilary dont you? dont you?)
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The dreamers, the risk takers, the entrepreneurs.
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Originally posted by JB88
pull!
(you know that ol geo is thier hilary dont you? dont you?)
Pull? Is that a reference to the shooting arts? Is so sir expect a call from the SS!!!
;)
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Dr. Jonas Salk and crew
They kinda came up with a vaccine for polio. Saved millions of lives
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Pull? Is that a reference to the shooting arts? Is so sir expect a call from the SS!!!
;)
george bush couldnt dream his way out of a wet paper bag.
always nice to take the risk when its thier life.
oh and arbusto (which means shrub) was a wash. entrepreneur?
man, you gotta stop drinkin your wash water.
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wombatt- Never said we look back on slavery as being good now. I mean that at that time, it was though better of. Now a days we see it as bad, Which it is.
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Originally posted by JB88
george bush couldnt dream his way out of a wet paper bag.
always nice to take the risk when its thier life.
oh and arbusto (which means shrub) was a wash. entrepreneur?
man, you gotta stop drinkin your wash water.
I know ur obsesesed with Bush, but you dont need assume my comment was about him.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
wombatt- Never said we look back on slavery as being good now. I mean that at that time, it was though better of. Now a days we see it as bad, Which it is.
Oh I know I was just on my soap box for awhile I'm better now.
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Geoge W. Bush (I lost a bet) :D
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My soap box broke...:(
Dont poeple stand on soap boxes in Britian, something to do with they can not be arrested for speaking what they please when their not standing on the actual land ?
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Lt. Howard Reason Burnett, U.S.N.
(And all like him)
Why?
August 24, 1942 - The Battle of the Eastern Solomons: Douglas SBD Dauntless (Scout/Dive Bomber) - on patrol when the Japanese air attack materialized flew out of range of our antiaircraft fire and waited until the action was over before returning to land. However, several of these planes took part in the air fighting. Ens. Howard R. Burnett, observing the direction of the enemy planes' dives, flew his SBD into the path of their retirement, and attacked several with his two fixed guns. At 1715 he shot down an Aichi type 99 dive bomber."
Next came the Battle of Santa Cruz on August 26. Having been informed that there were several carriers in the vicinity, Burnett was sent on a 200 mile search at dawn. Sighting the ships that had been shelling Guadalcanal during the night, two battleships, three heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and seven destroyers, he flew about fifty feet over the water about two miles from the force until it was definitely established as enemy. A report of the enemy was sent in by radio and Burnett and his wing man, who were alone, tracked for about an hour, when they climbed to 14,000 feet, as they had not seen the carriers. While diving on one of the cruisers the wing man was thrown into a spin and forced to return to the carrier. Burnett dropped his bomb and an hour later another pilot reported the stern of the cruiser in flames.
Returning the carrier was found under attack, Burnett's attention being attracted by a Jap plane burning on the water. The sky was covered by black smoke from five inch anti aircraft fire. Seeing a burst of flame on the Hornet, he was soon in the midst of enemy planes, and several dog fights. One plane got on his tail and shot out his hydraulic system, one cylinder in the engine and the cockpit was filled with holes. His gas system had been punctured so that there was eight inches of gas in the cockpit. However, seeing an enemy twin engine torpedo plane fifty feet off the water, made a pass and shot it down. The crew got into its rubber boat and Burnett's rear seat man strafed them, deflating the boat. He had just enough gas to get back on the carrier, and was aboard for two hours of continuous bombing by the enemy.
Go here to see more
http://www.rootsweb.com/~kscomanc/burnett_howard_lt.html
but alas:
United States Pacific Fleet
Fighting Squadron Nineteen
15 August 1944
Dear Mrs. Burnett;
While the Navy Department will have told you that Howard's missing in action it will not tell you of the void left in this squadron nor the deep personal loss I feel. I only wish there were some chance of his return but any such hope is too remote to even be considered. His plane ( F6F Hellcat ) was seen to catch on fire in the midst of intense anti aircraft fire 4,000 feet over a Jap base within 600 miles of Tokyo, and it is believe to have crashed.
Redbird as we knew him, was one of the most colorful pilots in the war. He was an outstanding leader that the Navy and our country will sorely miss him. He is well known throughout the fleet for his general aggressive spirit, and in particular for his excellent work during the occupation of the Solomons. A recent citation for this work has just been received and is being forwarded to you.
Please accept my heartfelt sympathy and write me if there is anything further that I can do or say.
Sincerely yours,
T. H. WINTERS, JR.
Commander, U. S. Navy.
Commanding Officer.
Not bad for a Kansas farmboy
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only one nibble....
LOL thought that would have added "friday fire" onto the thread hehehehhee
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Originally posted by JB73
only one nibble....
LOL thought that would have added "friday fire" onto the thread hehehehhee
a bit obscure for most i think.
david duke may have been a more acceptable modern alternative.
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what's funny about him is that he has helped bring the country together more than "stomp out the inferior races" or whatever.
how many time have you seen white, black, yellow, red, and whatever people come out and join together in protesting the KKK?
not that that is any reason he is a good person, i just find it ironic that the KKK rallies usually bring out 10 times more protesters AGAINST the KKK than they ever have show up.
that movie with sandra bullock, samuel jackson, and mathew mc... however you spell it was a great example.
i have yet to meet in person someone who doesn't hate the KKK and i mean hate.. not just "think they are mis-guided"
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Oh, it's ok if TJ owned slaves, everyone did!
Oh, It's ok if Hans Strudel pushed the Jews into Brick ovens. Everyone did!
Either neither of them are bad, or they are both bad. Pick.
Greatest American ever **IS** Abraham Lincoln. He went from dirt poor to **FREEING AN ENTIRE RACE!**
Btw, Nathan Bedford Forrest might have founded the KKK, however he broke from it when he believed it to be too radical.
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laser-
It was believed ok by other Nazi Germans to kill millions. Now its viewed wrong, Which it most definatly is.
Slavery was viewed ok during its times. Now its viewed bad and is.
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Gunnery Sergenat John "Manila John" Basilone
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Originally posted by Rafe35
Gunnery Sergenat John "Manila John" Basilone
I don't see how military service automatically makes you the greatest American.
But in that vain I would go with Gen George Smith Patton.
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George Washington. Without his leadership during the war there wouldn't have been a US for us to have this discussion about.
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BlueJ, so you excuse the Slaveowners for all the lives they ruined? You excuse the germans for all the lives they ruined?
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Originally posted by JB73
what's funny about him is that he has helped bring the country together more than "stomp out the inferior races" or whatever.
how many time have you seen white, black, yellow, red, and whatever people come out and join together in protesting the KKK?
not that that is any reason he is a good person, i just find it ironic that the KKK rallies usually bring out 10 times more protesters AGAINST the KKK than they ever have show up.
that movie with sandra bullock, samuel jackson, and mathew mc... however you spell it was a great example.
i have yet to meet in person someone who doesn't hate the KKK and i mean hate.. not just "think they are mis-guided"
i know how THAT works....lol
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laser-can you read ?
Originally posted by BlueJ1
Im NOT condoning slavery.
Now a days we see it as bad, Which it is.
It was believed ok by other Nazi Germans to kill millions.Now its viewed wrong, Which it most definatly is.
Slavery was viewed ok during its times. Now its viewed bad and is.
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Originally posted by wombatt
I don't see how military service automatically makes you the greatest American.
But in that vain I would go with Gen George Smith Patton.
http://www.sgtjohnbasilone.com/SGT%20JOHN%20BASILONE%20FOUNDATION/WEBSITE/home.htm
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From context, we know the answer must be one of the Wright Bros., Eddie Rickenbacker, Lindberg, Bob Hoover, Dick Bong or Staiga.
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Originally posted by wombatt
The Rev Martin Luther King.
This man was trying to bring us all together the right way thru
the love of ones self and God.
If he had of lived the world would be better I am sure of that.
Amen.
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Oh, I can read. The question is, do you read what you type out?
Because you're perfectly condoning what was done to slaves and jews. And I'm not twisting your words to make it sound like you are.
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Easy.
John Wayne
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I must not be able to read then. Bucause I thought by stating, NOT condoning and believing slavery and the death of millions is wrong, to mean just that. Guess not...
And it was thought by people of those times that it was ok. Those were other people's belief of those time periods.
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Originally posted by wombatt
Thats is true but ownership only encouraged the slave trade by fueling the need for more slaves.
And the fact that he screwed one of his slaves hardly makes him
man of the year LOL.
Would you rather he gave them to another not so kind slave owner?
Given the circumstances and the attitude of the times when most didnt see anything wrong with it. Being owned by Jefferson was probably the best possible situation for them at the time.
They were certainly better off with him then alot of other places they could have been. When even Free blacks werent exactly treated with kindess
and wasnt it Jefferson one of the first to speak out against slavery?
Then someone mentioned Lincoln.
I remember him being quoted as saying "If I could win this war by freeing all the slaves I'll do that. I'f I can win this was by freeing some of the slaves I will do that. And if I could win this war by not freeing a single slave, I will also do that"
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dude. they didnt screw.
they made sweet love.
bigot.
:cool:
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for me it is jefferson because he was the one who drafted the document that ultimately broke the chains of slavery.
we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.
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John Marshall
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Speaking of Slavery.
I am curious about somthing.
Slavery and Slave Trading was big buisness.
Who owned the companies and the ships that went and got the slaves?
Is there a list somewhere?
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JB88, not even close.
When he said that, he meant all ****WHITE LAND OWNING CHRISTIANS**** but had to trim it down to fit on the paper...
You can give all the excuses you want, it doesn't excuse the Fact that Jefferson owned slaves.
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not excusing it.
but im not holding a modern standard to a colonial man either.
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i can understand the arguemfent, but for me it has most to do with his many interests and inventions. i would certainly rank him as one of the greatest founding fathers none the less. i happen to feel that his spirit lies deep in the foundation of this land.
he was an idea man and many of his ideas were implimented.
i have just always appreciated jefferson.
sue me.
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Yea but since John Wayne Gacy thought it was OK to kill little boys then it was OK? HUH? Right? HUh?
Jeeeez laser, yer makin me look downright moderate.
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Exactly JB88. Slaver is still wrong.
Judging him for modern day beliefs is not right. If you judge him, you should judge him in his time period.
Laser- Heres an example of my point. You have a beer every once in awhile. Maybe, in 200 years you may have lead to something great, or are looked upon by family members in the future. Then drinking is illegal and aganst the beliefs of humankind. They judge you based upon their beleifs at that time, not of the beliefs of your time, and your personel history is scarred by it. Get it ?
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Cleavon Little
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Desi Arnaz
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Exactly JB88. Slaver is still wonrg.
i have been wonrg about many things.
slavery as a principle is WRONG.
george had slaves to.
so did twelve other presidents.
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Unlike throwing Jews into Ovens, or whipping slaves, drinking a beer responsibly can only hurt the person who does it.
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(shakes head)
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what do you mean blueness?
anal about what?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Desi Arnaz
no way desi arnaz was a greater american than cleavon little. I don't care how much lucy poosie he got. :D
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Unlike throwing Jews into Ovens, or whipping slaves, drinking a beer responsibly can only hurt the person who does it.
That wasnt his point :)
The idea that slavery is wrong is a relatively new idea to mankind. Slavery existed as an institution for thousands and thousands of years. Caesar, after his campaign in Gaul, bragged that there were a million dead and a million more enslaved. Rome is looked upon as the greatest empire in human history. No one says, Well, Rome had slaves, so their entire civilization doesnt count.
His example with alcohol is just that, an example.
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okay. let me rethink this.
okay. founding fathers,..defnatley jeffy boy.
all of american history>
kenned when he spoke. it could move mountains, i think he defined the dream of america in a way that i havent seen anywhere else.
teddy roosevelt for environmental and rugged individualism.
fdr, for the war and a depression.
?
hmmmmm.....which.
oh screw it.
mickey mouse.
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laser-Your trying to argue that Slavery is wrong and the Nazi killing of millions is wrong.
I agree completly. No question about it. IT IS WRONG, SHOULD NOT BE DONE.
Your also saying Jefferson was wrong in owning slaves.
Judging him through the modern day view, Yes he was.
Judging him through the time period he existed in, which is the way we should judge his accomplishments.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
laser-Your trying to argue that Slavery is wrong and the Nazi killing of millions is wrong.
I agree completly. No question about it. IT IS WRONG, SHOULD NOT BE DONE.
Your also saying Jefferson was wrong in owning slaves.
Judging him through the modern day view, Yes he was.
Judging him through the time period he existed in, which is the way we should judge his accomplishments.
exactly. besides, jefferson didnt invent the evil, it was resident.
it took catholics and nazis to invent new forms of wicked bad.
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(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a53000/3a53200/3a53289r.jpg)
and
(http://pepper.cpb.fsu.edu/library/fdr/e28.jpg)
eskimo
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But we judge others in our modern day views and they far outshine Jefferson.
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Originally posted by JB88
not excusing it.
but im not holding a modern standard to a colonial man either.
Nor should you.
If we held everyone form the past to our current standards fully 90% of the population everywhere would be deemed terrible.
As an example just look and the dicipline of children.
There was a time when it was common for a child to be beaten with any number of assorted things. Hell it was common place for Teachers to do it And nobody batted an eye over it.
Now you so much as threaten to hit your kid and you can damn near be crucified.
Sweatshops were also considered norm
Now lets take current times.
Good guess that most of us eat meat and think nothing of it.
Who knows what the standards will be 100 200 years form now.
IF PETA has its way we wont be. Adn then WE will be the ones that look terrible in hindsight
There is a flipside to this also.
How about if we were held to the same standards as those before us.
My Grandfather was arrested for indecent exposure for wearing a swimsuit that looked alot like this back in 1919
(http://www.uen.org/utahlink/tours/admin/tour/13227/13227dressmaleswim.jpg)
Few hundred years ago if you even spoke out against the church you could be tortured. or worse. and back then YOU would have been considered the one who was wrong by everyone.
Imagine how we would be viewed if we were held to the same standards of those before us.
You cant fairly hold those in history to the same standards we hold today.
The standards are entirely different.
Reminds me of an old saying I once heard
"there is no real right or wrong really.
It is only a common way of thinking that makes it so"
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There are some of us who still believe in corporal punishment for children though...
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
There are some of us who still believe in corporal punishment for children though...
And you can just rot in jail with DREDIOCK's grandpa, Thomas Jefferson and Hitler!
eskimo
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Jefferson.....
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Leonardo Da Vinci.
He was a TRUE american before his time, encapsulating all the virtues still held eseemed today:
Pioneering.
Inventiveness.
A clear picture of what others couldn't see.
See this:
If our president was anywhere in the neighborhood, or block, of what Da Vinci could do, things might seem a little different.
And as you all know, Our president represents the greatest American, ipso facto.
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My vote goes to Alfred E. Newman.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
There are some of us who still believe in corporal punishment for children though...
i spank my plants.
BAD plant! BAD BAD!
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Originally posted by Jackal1
My vote goes to Alfred E. Newman.
What, me worry?
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Originally posted by Arcon
Leonardo Da Vinci.
He was a TRUE american before his time, encapsulating all the virtues still held eseemed today:
Pioneering.
Inventiveness.
A clear picture of what others couldn't see.
See this:
If our president was anywhere in the neighborhood, or block, of what Da Vinci could do, things might seem a little different.
And as you all know, Our president represents the greatest American, ipso facto.
This just In !!! Leo was Not an American.
In fact there was no America when Leo was alive:rofl :rofl
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Mr. Black, re-read the post. He knows that, you missed the point completely.
:p
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(http://www.tvdance.com/peewee/4a.gif)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
(http://pepper.cpb.fsu.edu/library/fdr/e28.jpg)
He's got my vote. :aok
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Unlike throwing Jews into Ovens, or whipping slaves, drinking a beer responsibly can only hurt the person who does it.
not if you take an alcoholics last brewski
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good pick vudak. the guy that put us in hock for 6 generations and gave 1/2 of europe to uncle joe for free. it took us 40 years set the world (more or less) right after his passing.
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Because he failed in his ultimate quest, it does not diminish his greatness.(http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/images/sittingbull.jpg)
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Originally posted by storch
good pick vudak. the guy that put us in hock for 6 generations and gave 1/2 of europe to uncle joe for free. it took us 40 years set the world (more or less) right after his passing.
Care to explain this?
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Bill Gates. A bloodless conquering of the world through ideas and economics.
Tom
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Care to explain this?
guess you don't read much huh?
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I vote STORCH!:aok
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Originally posted by storch
guess you don't read much huh?
How did he put us in hock?
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Yes, Mr. Da Vinci was born before any "americans".
If you look at his works, he was truly a genius,
Any he was not trying to make mega bucks.
He is almost an archetype for the modern day scientists.
Of course, he probably would never take the job if it had been around in those days.
As it has been said elsewhere, those most qualified for leadership are the one least likely to accept the position.
As for bill gates: sorry. No soul.
Flame away again....
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As for presidents, Lincoln gets my vote.
Churchill gets my second vote.
Both had character, Churchill had some personal problems, But was DEFINITELY the man for the time.
Lincoln had more character than all other presidents before and after him, especially considering his upbringing.
Lincoln:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html
Churchill:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRchurchill.htm
There are other, more informative links.
But still, If Leonardo Da Vinci had any characteristics of a politician (i.e misleading, saying what people want to hear, and generally appeasing the mostly ignorant masses) he would still be the best "american" for the job"
hehe, this outta kick off some debate, if anyone takes the idea of greatest american being the American Leader, i.e the president, seriously.
It just annoys me that our American representative tends to always be of low character. A politician.
If you read the biographies, I think you'll understand what I mean.
Hell, If Lincoln were around, I'd back him up all the way.
As far as the Current greatest american:
I'd have to go with Paris Hilton. or her sister.
Just trying to fit in :)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
And you can just rot in jail with DREDIOCK's grandpa, Thomas Jefferson and Hitler!
eskimo
:rofl
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Originally posted by JB73
Nathan Bedford Forrest
Hehe...good choice, although in that genre I woulda said T.J. "Stonewall" Jackson :)
Seriously, I think this question is impossible to answer definitively. There are too many, too much done. The best that can be done is to have a list of "Great Americans", IMO.
Many who qualify have been listed. Many deserve it. I'll add a few who I believe are great due to what they were willing to contribute, yet who I seldom hear mentioned in discussions like this.
Thomas Payne
Nathan Hale
Sequoyah
William Barret Travis
Juan Seguin
Thomas Edison
Alvin York
Jonathan Wainwright
James Doolittle
Tony McAuliffe
Muhammad Ali
Ross Perot
There are many more.
culero
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Me
Enough Said
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Joseph Gayetty
I mean, come on, who else cleaned up so much chit?
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Jimmy Doolittle.