Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on January 14, 2005, 07:37:10 PM
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Make it more effective.
ALOT more effective.
Especially when large numbers of enemy aircraft are around
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hahahaha ur kidding right?
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by thebest1
hahahaha ur kidding right?
nope. not even a little bit
Besides. if the puffy ack haters are going to whine.
they should at least give them something to whine about
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It should be a little more effective though, I have actually seldom been hit by flak.
Just make it damage the plane (engine hit here and there) just don't make it kill you straight away (like the manned flak) nobody likes that.
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I'd like to see the puffy ack come more in mass, but be harder to fire. You'd have to set the timers on the shots...
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Been kilt maybe 3 times by ack and everytime I believed I deserved it. I like puffy ack specially when it plinks off my plane. Very realistic.
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Personally, I've never felt that there was enough ack around the bases in AH. There is puffy ack and manned ack. Puffy act is a noisy nuisance, and adds almost nothing to base defense.
Manned ack is 37mm exclusively, and there isn't enough of it. Some of the smaller bases have only two of these ack positions. One pass by a singly jabo can leave a base totally undefended by ack. There is no 20mm or 50caliber fire, period.
Not very realistic at all, if you ask me.
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Yeah Running to hide in ack doesnt work like it used to. :D
I think making Puffy ack a manned posistion would go a long way in improving bases defense though.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Make it more effective.
ALOT more effective.
Especially when large numbers of enemy aircraft are around
Funnily enough (being someone that hates puffy ack in AH) i agree.
make it MUCH more effective vs level flying bomber formations.
and MUCH less effective vs twisting, turning, fast, climbing, diving fighters.
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Originally posted by Furball
Funnily enough (being someone that hates puffy ack in AH) i agree.
make it MUCH more effective vs level flying bomber formations.
and MUCH less effective vs twisting, turning, fast, climbing, diving fighters.
I kinda agree with that.
More effective yes. Against the bombers in particular. but also against large masses of aircraft.
Perhaps leave it the ssame for say a lone aircraft or perhaps 2.
with large masses of AC I think the laws of probability would be there is a better chance of at least some of them getting shot down evenby random do to their large numbers
Kinda like throwing a spear at fish. you would be far more likely to hit one in a school of many then you probably would be to hit one by itself
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Simple rule with AA/AAA and aircraft, the big bomber, lumbering thru the air can take a near miss/hit and survive, the small twisting agile fighter is seriously damaged or destroyed by the same.
And until they model the actual concentration of AA/AAA around the fields and on the Battle Groups, I believe that the AAA as it is currently modeled is here to stay.
I wonder if the current settings are set to more readily duplicate a heavier concentration of 88's around the bases than is currently modeled.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I kinda agree with that.
More effective yes. Against the bombers in particular. but also against large masses of aircraft.
Perhaps leave it the ssame for say a lone aircraft or perhaps 2.
with large masses of AC I think the laws of probability would be there is a better chance of at least some of them getting shot down evenby random do to their large numbers
Kinda like throwing a spear at fish. you would be far more likely to hit one in a school of many then you probably would be to hit one by itself
What you are basically saying, is that is should be more effective vs. formations of aircraft.
How often do you see formations of aircraft (apart from bombers) in AH? Usually is is a lose stream of aircraft coming into a target, which i dont think would be too affected by the ack. If they were in a massed gaggle, then yes it would.
A swirling furball with friendly and unfriendly aircraft however... if you want realism... what gunners would shoot at their own aircraft???
One thing that pisses me off, puffy ack is there for defence.. i was once, defending my own cv, from bombers in F4U1-C, get onto a unawares B17 formation, friendly AI puffy ack shoots me down. B17 goes and sinks CV.
How does the AI puffy ack actually defend a CV AT ALL from bomber formations?
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I got shot by it once though...
I agree in making the flak more effective, but it should not destroy a plane immediately. Just make it damage something on the AC on impact.
Something I always wanted was that the AC would shake when flak bursts around them. Though this should not affect bomb-calibration.
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Watch how many times that groups of bomber flights will pass less than 800 feet above a field and still survive the encounter. This is with all AAA up. They can hammer fighters at alt racing around but do little damage to low level buffs right above a field.
Yes fighters being hit would surely cause a bit of damage but this is a bit retarded. Watch as the AAA zeros in on one fighter at 8k alt and almost 8k away then immediately reposition for another fighter in the complete opposite direction zooming around and the first bursts are right there next to them. Then it repeats the process and jumps to another con in the complete opposite direction.
It seems the whole AAA field concentrates on one target opposed to multiple targets. If the ai was smart enough it'd concentrate fire on the highest threats and not just one target. I don't know how many times the ack has zerod in on me then it all turns back to another con, then back to me, then back to the other con again. Opposed to the flak firing in every direction at targets it does this amazing about face movements and concentrates on one target.
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The trouble with this discussion is that everyone assumes that the 88's are modelled as a real gun that is tracking the aircraft around them. It does not. All it does is instantly start puffing into existence around the plane currently targeted by the AI at the field. There is no fire prediction, load times, nor any aiming, it just instantly appears around your aircraft with a randomiser deciding if you get hit or not. The drawback is that no matter how hard you maneuver, you never maneuver away from the ack, it just increases your chances of getting pinged. The side effect is that a bomber straight and level is much less likely to be pinged than a fighter (at least anecdotal evidence suggests this).
HTC please add some code to make the 88's act like a real AA gun:
- Make the AI guns fire shells like the manned fleet ack.
- Make the shells time fuzed.
- Add a delay between targeting a plane and firing the shells.
- Add a delay between the target maneuvering and the guns reaiming.
- Add a small randomiser to the aiming (like the osti gun) and timing settings so that bombers get a reasonable chance of survival.
The psychic insta ping flak that we have had until now is just a weak approximation of reality in a game that is meant to pride itself on high-fidelity models.
:cool:
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Yes, I'd like to see alot more ACK, but I think it should be hard to use.
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Originally posted by Furball
A swirling furball with friendly and unfriendly aircraft however... if you want realism... what gunners would shoot at their own aircraft???
American;)
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The problem in real life was that they couldn't see clearly if it was a friend or foe
(many gunners accidently shot down their own ac)
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
- Add a small randomiser to the aiming (like the osti gun) and timing settings so that bombers get a reasonable chance of survival.
No wonder you have to be able to stick an Osti muzzel in a pilots ear to get a hit, because it sure doesn't hit in the crosshairs.
The puffy ack doesn't seem to do much to wave after wave of bombers coming in on a field. The bombers get destroyed when they dive into the field.
We need something better for field defense, or what we have to be more effective. Polesti or Ruhr valley effective.
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Blue Mako:
It used to be the way you described you want it to be.
There are and were some major draw backs in doing it that way primarly do to the length of shots.
So we instead put a box around your plane and randomly shoot at points in the box.
This box then changes size with speed range and acceleration.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Blue Mako:
It used to be the way you described you want it to be.
There are and were some major draw backs in doing it that way primarly do to the length of shots.
So we instead put a box around your plane and randomly shoot at points in the box.
This box then changes size with speed range and acceleration.
HiTech
HiTech, is there a method to best avoid puffy ack, like evasives etc?
In RL it would be changing course / alt, but by the above rules, the best way to avoid it would be to be far away, going very fast, and accelerating?
What if you just added a time delay between bursts? keep the above rules you already have, but distance from cv = time variable.
The time variable is the time where the puffy ack gets your position, to where it explodes.
So say 8k from cv = 8 seconds time variable.
Ack takes your speed, acceleration, distance like before, but it explodes 8 seconds later where you will be if you do not alter speed/course/alt/distance, not instantly like it does now?
So if you alter course within that time variable then it will miss you and explode where you would have been, not where you are?
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Furball Acceleration is also turning/looping i.e. changing course so it is already taken into acount.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Blue Mako:
It used to be the way you described you want it to be.
There are and were some major draw backs in doing it that way primarly do to the length of shots.
So we instead put a box around your plane and randomly shoot at points in the box.
This box then changes size with speed range and acceleration.
HiTech
If you have a formation of three ac.....do you randomly fire three times as much ammo?
Is the total rate of fire proportional to the number of 88's shared amongst the number of targets
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Originally posted by hitech
Furball Acceleration is also turning/looping i.e. changing course so it is already taken into acount.
HiTech
I seem to get hit very often no matter what i am doing, is that just bad luck?
i bet there is a .spite furball command i am unaware of... :D
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Originally posted by hitech
Blue Mako:
It used to be the way you described you want it to be.
There are and were some major draw backs in doing it that way primarly do to the length of shots.
So we instead put a box around your plane and randomly shoot at points in the box.
This box then changes size with speed range and acceleration.
HiTech
HT Thanks for the reply.
What were the drawbacks? Just curious because I would have thought that it would be more historically accurate to have long fire times for large calibre AA guns. This would make fighter types almost invunerable to ack but bombers very susceptible. Seems to remind me of real life a little...
Does the box get larger with higher speed or smaller? Does positive acceleration increase the size of the box or make it smaller? The reason I ask is that presently bombers appear to sail along without any accelerations at low speed and remain untouched. Fighters seem to attract ack hits much faster than bombers even though they are changing speed and direction almost constantly. eg. I had my engine killed last night by heavy field ack while in the middle of a dogfight near a base. I had reversed direction using an immelman and was accelerating away at 180 deg from my previous track and yet I still took a hit...
Would it be possible to have the position of the imaginary box you are shooting into lag behing the targets velocity/acceleration changes by a small amount? ie. it will still be centred on you if you are not maneuvering but dragged behind you by a small amount if you are?
:cool:
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If they are shooting randomly in the box then your location in the box does not make a difference.
However, probability would say that it is safer or as safe to stay put. Don't turn don't change speed don;t dive.
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!amazed
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Originally posted by dedalos
If they are shooting randomly in the box then your location in the box does not make a difference.
I think you're always in the center of that box since it forms around the AC?
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Originally posted by frank3
I think you're always in the center of that box since it forms around the AC?
Yes, I was responding to someone asking for the box to drag behind you if you are fast or turning. As long as you are in the box and the firing is random it would not make any difference if you are in the center or not.
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Puffy ack is okay as it is. I think it's tough but there have been times I've flown through an alley of ack and not taken a single ping for 100 miles.
However, what I'd really like to see implemented is MUCH stronger AAA!!!!
Like was said, a single plane in a single pass can take out half the guns on a field, and it almost never takes any damage. Hell I as in a weak japanese plane over an enemy field and I took about 7-9 AAA pings at different times before anything fell off (and what finally fell off was my radiator).
That's absurd. I was low level, low speed, less than 200 feet over an enemy field, and I was there for 3-5 minutes (dogfight with enemy plane). Then when I do finally get hits, waiting for my teammates to show up, they do nothing.
I propose that there are MANY more ack guns per field. And I propose this is done by clustering ack. So in the same location, where we now have 1 AAA gun, I suggest there be 3 smaller nests. All shoot at the same target, so AI stays the same. Only all three fire. This makes 3x the rounds being shot at a plane (tougher), it makes strafing any one position dangerous (as all 3 positions will be shooting at the strafer) and would make small bombs much more useful for taking out entire clusters (forcing people to actually carry ord once in a while).
So basically this tripples the number of rounds being shot at low level planes, it tripples the task of any strafer, and it tripples the threat any single AAA battery is to a strafer as the strafer aims at that battery.
I might suggest faster firing for each AAA as well, but this is a good start.
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Just to clarify my position (as if anyone really cares, :lol ).
Fly slow and straight in a big plane and the CV or base puffy sould have you for lanch. Twist and turn or have "ack friendlies" around you it should either not fire at you, or be a threat to the friendly also.
Maned 5", again be a treat to friendlys or enable kill shooter. (maybe a slower rate of fire when the gun has to move to simulate distance recalculations?)
Same for base ack. I can deack a base using 2 or 3 20mm rounds without taking a hit (except of a port on the fester map). Why even have it? Who knows? maybe if the base is not very easy to vulch we may see fights around them last a little longer.
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I think ALL guns at an airfield should be mannable. Let them be automatic if not taken by a player.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'd like to see the puffy ack come more in mass, but be harder to fire. You'd have to set the timers on the shots...
I agree totally.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Make it more effective.
ALOT more effective.
Especially when large numbers of enemy aircraft are around
I agree, 100%, IF:
1) Puffy ack only appears in LOS shots. No puffy ack over mountain ridges, etc.
2) Puffy ack affects all in the area--NME and friendlies. Why? Ack runners. Avoid this lameness and keep a little (just a little) "historical accuracy". German intercepts avoided buffs in ack zones. USN pilots risked life and limb pursuing kamikazies diving on ships.
I'd go a little further even...don't limit #2 to just the puffy ack. All ground fire should work like this (occasional stray shots on friendlies---err, lame-o ack runners). Heck, make the manned ack get kill-shootered (destroyed and booted) if they plink a friendly.
From the HTC website:
The P-51D in Aces High carries the markings of Major George Preddy, Commanding Officer of the 328th Fighter Squadron. Major Preddy was the highest scoring Mustang ace with 26.83 air victories, including 6 Bf 109s in a single mission. On Christmas Day 1944, Major Preddy flew his last mission, shooting down two more 109s. He then encountered a Fw 190 and along with two other P-51s, gave chase at tree top level. An M-16 of the 12th Anti-Aircraft Group was defending the area but did not receive word of the P-51s operating in the area. As the P-51s crossed a treeline while pursuing the Focke Wulf, they came under American anti-aircraft fire. Major Preddy was hit by two rounds. He managed to crash-land his plane, but he had been mortally wounded and was found dead in his cockpit by the crew that shot him down. His wingman also took a bullet through the cockpit but escaped injury. The other P-51 was hit so badly that its pilot was forced to bail out. Thus was the tragic ending to the life of one of America's greatest fighter aces.
Just my 2 cents, err, $14.99/month worth.
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Originally posted by XrightyX
Major Preddy was hit by two rounds. He managed to crash-land his plane, but he had been mortally wounded and was found dead in his cockpit by the crew that shot him down. His wingman also took a bullet through the cockpit but escaped injury. The other P-51 was hit so badly that its pilot was forced to bail out.
Hmmm....Two fighters shot down and one hit all in one pass. I assume that they didn't keep making pass after pass. It would appear we need better ground fire in AH.
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This is a very interesting thread to say the least, one that has been brought up many times.
I have stated since the begining {2yrs ago in the AH1 days} that air fields, vehicle bases, Carriers and HQ should all have in place several types of defense systems.
AI controlled when players are not present, but manable if needed.
GV bases and small air fields:
1. No less than 4 twin mount 20mm AA guns
2. No less than 3 37mm AA guns
3. No less than 2 40mm Bofors mounts
Medium size air fields:
1. No less than 4 twin mount 20mm AA guns
2. No less than 4 37mm AA guns
3. No less than 3 40mm Bofors mounts single & twin
Large air fields and HQ
1. No less than 8 twin mount 20mm AA guns
2. No less than 6 37mm AA guns
3. No less than 6 40mm Bofors mounts twin & quad
4. Nice addition would be 3 or 4 88's or equivalent
Carrier groups:
1. No less than 10 20mm AA guns
2. No less than 20 40mm Bofors twin and quad mount
3. No less than 4 5" guns
4. The larger calibur left to HTC to deceide
Some or all of the guns can be AI controlled when not manned, that would be left up to HTC.
But ALL gun stations should be manable once a crew is avail.
If you wanna bump up the realism, make the bigger guns require a crew of two or more. Just like when you join someone as a tailgunner, you join a gun mount as a loader or spotter. {which ALL of these types of weapons had IRL} and yes, I know this isn't real life, so don't go there.
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