Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: tapakeg on January 15, 2005, 12:39:15 PM
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FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Army Spc. Charles Graner Jr., the reputed ringleader of a band of rogue guards at Abu Ghraib, may tell his story about what went on inside the notorious Baghdad prison after all.
I'm sorry, but a spc.4 is a RINGLEADER? This sounds fishy.
Where were the NCO's? Where were the Officers? Who is in charge, an E-4?
Someone is being setup, so others with rank don't lose a career.
If anything this sounds like a total failure of the leadership chain of command.
If you are dumb enough to have friends photograph you doing things that will get you courtmartialed for 15 years you get what you deserve.
On top of that, I think he has other issues..........
Graner was accused of stacking naked prisoners in a human pyramid and later ordering them to masturbate while other soldiers took photographs
Tapakeg
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The officer responsible of these guys must've been on a loooong vacation.
Which makes me wonder why the officer responsible of the prison and the guards, didn't get court martialed.
Would be quite hard for the officer to explain how he didn't have any idea about such stuff going on...
Fishy indeed...
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Originally posted by tapakeg
I'm sorry, but a spc.4 is a RINGLEADER? This sounds fishy.
Where were the NCO's? Where were the Officers? Who is in charge, an E-4?
Someone is being setup, so others with rank don't lose a career.
If anything this sounds like a total failure of the leadership chain of command.
If you are dumb enough to have friends photograph you doing things that will get you courtmartialed for 15 years you get what you deserve.
On top of that, I think he has other issues..........
Tapakeg
Charles Graner seems to be a little Ghey.
Karaya
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I have to agree here. There was an OIC of this institution as well as other officers. I fail to see where there was anything approaching adequate supervision or leadership here. There is a massive void in the chain of comand given the courts actions so far.
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Its so political. If you care about this stuff in the context of life in America, this investigation isn't very satisfying. It would need to go up the chain to reach a level of integrity.
I choose to look at this in the context of war. In that context, this ain't nothing but a thang.
Remember when that army officer, feeling his responsibilty, fired his side arm next to the head of a suspected terrorist to elicit info to protect his people?
They hanged him out to dry. As far as I'm concerned, none of this stuff belongs in the news, and our military better get thier sh*t together on how to conduct war in the "information age."
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Originally posted by Gunthr
They hanged him out to dry. As far as I'm concerned, none of this stuff belongs in the news, and our military better get thier sh*t together on how to conduct war in the "information age."
As far as I'm concerned, the freedom fighters, the american ones, shouldn't be the ones doing this stuff.
Otherwise americans can just as well forget all their rants about muslim terrorists doing it, russians doing it....
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Yeah fishu, all those kidnappings with video behedings, execution style back of the head shootings and beatings really pale in comparison to abu graib don't they. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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You forgot executing wounded enemies and POWs... ooops it was US troops doing those... sorry.
Maverick; do you have a bit "selective" memory?
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Originally posted by Staga
You forgot executing wounded enemies and POWs... ooops it was US troops doing those... sorry.
Maverick; do you have a bit "selective" memory?
Staga, even if that was true....why don't you ever mention any other war crimes by the other side....or war crimes in other conflics?
Is it because you love to hate the US?
The executions of people by the Iraqis is plain for all to see.....on VIDEO....and you never say anything about it.
Then you claim the US is doing something worse.....with no evidense.
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Staga there are 2 examples of what you are talking about that I am aware of. One on video and the other as a possible drowning related to abu graib. In both cases the military is conducting prosecutions. Exactly how many prosecutions are the opposition cunducting for the beheadings? Please inform me.
My memory is not selective but you certainly seem to be. Please not in my posts that I did not make an excuse for what went on in abu graib or elswhere. There certainly seems to be different ways for each side to handle these situations however. I don't doubt that you won't see the differences between them.
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Are abused Iraqi allowed to travell to US and make accusation agains US millitary ?
During the last case, iraqi who arrived to US to speak about how they were abused by judged soldiers werent even allowed to join the trail. muhehehe ... ohh well..
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Originally posted by lada
Are abused Iraqi allowed to travell to US and make accusation agains US millitary ?
During the last case, iraqi who arrived to US to speak about how they were abused by judged soldiers werent even allowed to join the trail. muhehehe ... ohh well..
are abused and beheaded people's families allowed to travel to Iraq speak out in the Iraqi insurgent's courts? Oh well.
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Originally posted by NUKE
are abused and beheaded people's families allowed to travel to Iraq speak out in the Iraqi insurgent's courts? Oh well.
They have no buisness being there to start with and, whenwas the last case of a "beheading"?
Not thoose 23 US soldiers they found in fallujha a couple of days ago, was it? Thats not official stuff......
Oh, you mean thoose CIA produced snuff videos? Hate to tell you this NUKE: they are not for real, sorry.
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"I don't recall" how many obvious scandles there have been in my lifetime, where some "scapegoat" gets the blame for the corruption of a great many. Or some crazy obvious B.S. cover-up story.
Watergate
JFK
Iran-contra
Savings and Loan
Enron
Those just flew off the top of my head
I trust my government sooooooo much, a part of me still thinks 911 was permitted to happen so we the people, would be compelled to accept the likes of the patriot act. I hope for humanities sake, that I am just paranoid.
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Lets put the appropriate "SPIN" on this...
Let the World see the US Military beheading terrorist and playing it on World Wide television.
Lets show the World that American soldiers can as well shoot terrorist in the back of the heads....and show it proudly on television....
Makes it sound different now doesn't it?
For you Anti~American Euro ultra melons...get real. See the WHOLE picture. Otherwise STFU!
With Love,
Mac
U.S. Army Retired
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Oh, you mean thoose CIA produced snuff videos? Hate to tell you this NUKE: they are not for real, sorry.
WTF planet are you from??
Crumpp
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lol @ Patrone and his CIA videos. We can play that game too. All prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison are actually being watched over by KGB agents. They've been hired on to teach our forces how to properly conduct interrogations and get immediate results. All those videos on television of American hardware rolling through Iraq were taped in the deserts in California. We hired people from around the US to film a movie of what it would be like if we ever went into Iraq.
Should we reincarnate your world leaders from the past to give you communists another chance at taking over the world? Maybe this time you guys will get it right and be happy.
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Why did those fools take pictures.... That's the dumbest thing you could do...
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Yeah Maverick. GS has personal experience and first hand knowledge of what's going on in Iraq. Even though he's probably never set foot out of his country let alone spent one day in a combat zone let alone in Iraq. But ofcourse he knows everything when it comes to what is going on and why it transpired. Hell he's probably got so much information he could probably run the war from his cozy little home on his pc.
He's not a sympathizer though of the terrorist organizations that have declared war on the western "world" and nor is he a SH sympathizer. You might want to change out your candles on that SH vigil you have going. Oh and I heard that you can get your Fedajeen heart with wings tattoo fairly cheep now GS. Might wanna take the time this weekend to stop by your local SH tattoo parlor and gift shop to pick up the latest pro-SH gear and get that tattoo put in the center of your forehead.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
WTF planet are you from??
Crumpp
wondering the same thing here Crump...
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ya the euro ultra melons are out in force per usual. Bottom line here for anyone with a thread of intelligent thought: War is immoral and if you are going to make war you had better be damned sure you win.
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Originally posted by Yeager
... if you are going to make war you had better be damned sure you win.
What ever it takes?
Bottomline is it's time for you Yanks to step down from your high horse and admit you're scum just like your opponents.
You torture prisoners and you also kill them (if you don't send them to prison without court hearing).
You are no better than a fanatic islamistic nutcases even if you try to claim otherwise.
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Originally posted by Staga
What ever it takes?
Bottomline is it's time for you Yanks to step down from your high horse and admit you're scum just like your opponents.
You torture prisoners and you also kill them (if you don't send them to prison without court hearing).
You are no better than a fanatic islamistic nutcases even if you try to claim otherwise.
any you, fit the Eurotrash US hater profile perfectly...
welcome to my ignore list
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Sometimes the truth can be hard to swallow.
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Lets see Finland. Axis nation during WWII. Staga you must have condoned the mass killing of Jews then huh? Yep you have a feet to stand on. You and your countries opinions can go sit their arses down now.
Lets see Norway. Neutral state during WWII. Yep must have really gave a watermelon about the mass killings of Jews too. Didn't have the balls then to stand up for what they supposedly really believe in. You can do the same as Finland now.
I'm seeing a very distinctive trend here. Where exactly would your countries stand if another Hitler rose to power? Oh that's right jump on the band wagon of the enemy or turn a blind eye and claim neutrality. Yep I'm sure your a real asset to the UN and all of it's allies. :aok
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Cobra in our army the Jews were fighting against Russians just like every other Finn and that was also something which made Germans bit "puzzled".
For example we had synagogues at the front; just like we had churches for Christians.
You might want to read a bit more before making assumptions like you did... Anyways you just strenghtened opinion that US folks are quite eager to judge without knowing facts... Nothing new in that.
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The comradeship-in-arms with Germany during the Continuation War did not alter the status of Jews in Finland or in its army. Jewish citizens served in the Finnish army, in women's voluntary defence services and in other duties alongside other Finns. The same was true with regard to all the ethnic minorities, Tatars, Russians, Gipsies, Lapps, without differentiation.
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014825.html
http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm
Sorry Cobra but you're just a stupid, uneducated American.
I'm sure you don't like the description but what can you do :)
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btw Finland had a treaty with Germany at WW2 but it wasn't a part of Axis nations. I'm sure you already knew this... uups you did not.
Well now you know :)
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Originally posted by Maverick
Yeah fishu, all those kidnappings with video behedings, execution style back of the head shootings and beatings really pale in comparison to abu graib don't they. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Do you mean that if a US bomb blows up someones house in the middle east, killing the guys family and has his baby die on his lap, gives him the right to kill couple americans and has the right make them suffer before dying ALMOST as much as his family suffered?
Try to think what you said from the insurgents/terrorists point of view.
Especially the insurgents are using exactly that excuse for their crimes.
Theres no excuse to what was done to the prisoners in guantanamo, abu ghraib, at the frontline.... etc.
Just as much as theres no right for the terrorists/insurgents to kill civilians or execute captured soldiers with cruel methods.
So think twice why american troops are there.
To show them americans are no better than the local dictators or to bring the freedom...?
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Lets see Finland. Axis nation during WWII. Staga you must have condoned the mass killing of Jews then huh? Yep you have a feet to stand on. You and your countries opinions can go sit their arses down now.
Lets see Norway. Neutral state during WWII. Yep must have really gave a watermelon about the mass killings of Jews too. Didn't have the balls then to stand up for what they supposedly really believe in. You can do the same as Finland now.
I'm seeing a very distinctive trend here. Where exactly would your countries stand if another Hitler rose to power? Oh that's right jump on the band wagon of the enemy or turn a blind eye and claim neutrality. Yep I'm sure your a real asset to the UN and all of it's allies. :aok
How can you expect to make a correct conclusion when using two false assertions ?.
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You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
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For starters Straffo who are you anyway. Like that sig by the way. "Land of the free". Wonder how that came about.
Why is it so many sites claim Norway claimed neutrality on 1 September 1939 then? Same time frame Poland was being invaded by Germany. Maybe that's just a misprint huh.
And oh I'm sorry Straga you sign a pact with a nation committing genocide and don't do anything once you learn of it. Much better than just flat out being part of the Axis powers. Atleast then you can claim you were forced to do so through threats of violence. Instead of growing a pair of balls and fighting for what you believe in. :aok
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Originally posted by Cobra412
For starters Straffo who are you anyway. Like that sig by the way. "Land of the free". Wonder how that came about.
I can help you ,look up this words :
"franc"/"frank"/"franque"/"francus"/" franci" and what do they mean ?
It's the translation of my country name.
Why is it so many sites claim Norway claimed neutrality on 1 September 1939 then? Same time frame Poland was being invaded by Germany. Maybe that's just a misprint huh.
Norway was neutral before september 1939.
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I thought really NUKE was the bigest blockhead here, posting only when his ****faced. But much to my suprise: Antoher star showed up!!! He´s so stupid that I am really enjoying his writting, a pure farse from start.... "Who are you Straffo?",,,,,,,hahahahahahaha....a real Gem!!
"Redneck Rumpage"
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*ROFL* Cobra you unimaginable twit. Norway was fighting the Germans one and a half years before the USA ... oh yes, that's right; the United States of America was neutral until December 11th 1941 when Germany declared war on you. I guess you didn't care about the mass killings of Jews huh? Moron!
SOME of you were fighting the Germans and some of you were fighting the allies.
Your country was conquered so quickly by the much better prepared for war Germans that it had little time to make any kind of organized governmental alliance beyond it's pre-invasion neurality. It adopted more of a "save us" policy with the allies.
Gscholtz says:
Then Sir, you are not much aware.
Back your propaganda up with some facts.
Crumpp
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IIRC at least six prisoners have died in US custody in Afghanistan alone, and two US servicemen have been convicted of murder. One of the Abu Griab prison guards shot and killed an inmate. I'm not sure if his investigation is finished though.
I'm sure it is more than 6 but not by much. You want to claim torture and conspiracy.
Facts are less than 1 percent who did abuse prisoners still does not exceed prisoners who just died of natural causes or plain old accidents. Some of the "prisoners" never even make to the stockades. They die in the hospital because they were captured with mortal wounds. Usually there is a thing called a "firefight" that proceeds capture. Rarely do they just run up and jump in the handcuffs.
Of course accidents and natural causes
are never factors when it's the United States. Those things only apply in the reality not in media world or USAhaters land.
Facts are abusing prisoners is illegal and those responsible are made to pay the price. The US treats the accusation very seriously.
Where is the investigations into Nick Berg's torture and beheading by the terrorist? Who have they put on trial to answer for these crimes?
How about:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3756552.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/hostages.html
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB4CQLM03E.html
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HOSTAGES KILLED:
-Margaret Hassan, 59-year-old director of CARE international in Iraq and a citizen of Britain, Ireland and Iraq. Abducted Oct. 19 in Baghdad. Makes videotaped appeals for the withdrawal of British troops and the release of female Iraqi prisoners. On Nov. 15, her family in London and Al-Jazeera television say they believe she is the female hostage whose shooting death is shown in a videotape. The tape is not broadcast.
-Shosei Koda, 24, of Japan. Found decapitated, his body wrapped in an American flag, in Baghdad on Oct. 30. A video posted on the Internet had said he was kidnapped by followers of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who threatened his life unless Japan pulled its troops from Iraq. Japan rejected the demand.
-Three Macedonian contractors, Dalibor Lazarevski, Zoran Nastovski and Dragan Markovic. Abducted Aug. 21; Macedonian government confirms their deaths Oct. 22.
-Ramazan Elbu, a Turkish driver. A video posted Oct. 14 on the Web site of the Ansar al-Sunnah Army shows his beheading.
-Maher Kemal, a Turkish contractor. Internet posting Oct. 11 shows his beheading. A statement says he was captured by the Ansar al-Sunnah Army.
-British engineer Kenneth Bigley, 62. Kidnapped Sept. 16 with two American co-workers for Gulf Services Co. A video issued in al-Zarqawi's name threatens their lives unless the U.S. frees all Iraqi women in custody. The Americans are beheaded first; Bigley's decapitation is confirmed Oct. 10.
-Jack Hensley, 48, a civil engineer from Marietta, Ga. Seized Sept. 16; an Internet message posted Sept. 21 reports his killing by al-Zarqawi's followers.
-Eugene "Jack" Armstrong, 52, formerly of Hillsdale, Mich. Kidnapped Sept. 16; video made public Sept. 20 shows his beheading by al-Zarqawi.
-Akar Besir, a Turkish driver. Body found Sept. 21.
-Durmus Kumdereli, Turkish truck driver. Beheaded in video made public Sept. 13 but digitally dated Aug. 17. Video posted on a Web site that carries statements from al-Zarqawi's group.
-Twelve Nepalese construction workers. One beheaded and 11 shot in the head in a video posted on the Internet Aug. 31. Killings claimed by Ansar al-Sunnah Army.
-Enzo Baldoni, Italian journalist. Reported killed Aug. 26; Islamic Army in Iraq had threatened his life.
-Murat Yuce of Turkey. Shot dead in video made public Aug. 2 by followers of al-Zarqawi.
-Raja Azad, 49, engineer, and Sajad Naeem, 29, driver, both Pakistani. Slain July 28. The Islamic Army in Iraq said they were killed because Pakistan considering sending troops to Iraq.
-Georgi Lazov, 30, and Ivaylo Kepov, 32, Bulgarian truck drivers. Al-Zarqawi's followers suspected of decapitating both men.
-Kim Sun-il, 33, South Korea translator. Beheaded June 22 by al-Zarqawi's group.
-Hussein Ali Alyan, 26, Lebanese construction worker. Found shot to death June 12. Lebanon says killers sought ransom.
-Fabrizio Quattrocchi, 35, Italian security guard. Killed April 14. Unknown group, the Green Battalion, claimed responsibility.
-Nicholas Berg, 26, businessman from West Chester, Pa. Kidnapped in April and beheaded by al-Zarqawi's group.
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Crummp
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So as long as you kill/execute less hostages/woundeds/POWs than your enemy it's OK ?
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Hmm ... if I'm not mistaken, of all the nations Germany conquered during WWII Norway fought the longest.
I am sure Norwegian history books tell you that Gscholtz!
When was Norway invaded by Germany? 9th of April 1940? I am sure nobody from Poland bothered to fight back...
Just makes you want to start singing the national anthem right now doesn't it!
China fought the longest of any allied nation. Norway rates about average for the smaller European nations in terms of length of time in combat. On the lower end of the scale in terms of casualty numbers.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
Crumpp
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So as long as you kill/execute less hostages/woundeds/POWs than your enemy it's OK ?
Nice bait and switch? Do you see that in my post?
Staga says:
Bottomline is it's time for you Yanks to step down from your high horse and admit you're scum just like your opponents.
However it is most certainly a black and white assumption on your part.
Staga, you just hate the United States no matter what the facts are and will spread lies that suit your view.
Crumpp
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Crump he may be right.
China was not conquered by Germany, so it does not count.
Poland 4 weeks, France 6 weeks, Norway 8 weeks.
After the initial conquering, then resistance...
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I am sure Norwegian history books tell you that Gscholtz!
When was Norway invaded by Germany? 9th of April 1940? I am sure nobody from Poland bothered to fight back...
Just makes you want to start singing the national anthem right now doesn't it!
China fought the longest of any allied nation. Norway rates about average for the smaller European nations in terms of length of time in combat. On the lower end of the scale in terms of casualty numbers.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
Crumpp
/agree
The chinese showed an Extraordinary resistance to the German ...
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The chinese showed an Extraordinary resistance to the German ...
China refers to length of time in combat between an allied and axis nation. Not to fighting Germany.
It seems Norway does have a whole four day lead on the rest of the low countries. The German forces in Denmark and Holland surrendered on 4 May and Norway held out until the 8th!!
To characterize Norway as "fighting" though is very misleading.
Norway fought by a small resistance movement. So a small percentage of the Norwegien population fought and a greater percentage helped out in non-combat service support functions as member of the auxillery or underground. Risky but not combat. The underground being expecially risky.
At least as many just existed and some even actively helped the Axis.
Here is a quick overview of the different resistance movements and their contribution to the allied war effort.
http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/res/res-cou.html
http://www.feldgrau.com/a-norway.html
Crumpp
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Originally posted by GScholz
IIRC at least six prisoners have died in US custody in Afghanistan alone, and two US servicemen have been convicted of murder. One of the Abu Griab prison guards shot and killed an inmate. I'm not sure if his investigation is finished though.
You tell me Crumpp. How many prisoners have died in US custody in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo? I bet it's more than two.
FWIW, I believe Crump is pointing out that we, the US, are atleast the one combatant that is dealing with the problem of prisoner abuse, while the terrorists (pc named insurgents) fully condone their atrocities.
We made a mistake in our treatment of some prisoners, but I do not feel as a whole our whole military is abusing prisoners. I believe that when all is said and done, the cases of US abuse will be isolated incidents from the rest of the military policy, and that in the end, it will be the terrorists that are truly seen as the evil in the middle east that are prolonging the suffering of the middle eastern people for their own personal gains (contrary to what their propaganda spouts).
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Originally posted by Staga
What ever it takes?
Bottomline is it's time for you Yanks to step down from your high horse and admit you're scum just like your opponents.
You torture prisoners and you also kill them (if you don't send them to prison without court hearing).
You are no better than a fanatic islamistic nutcases even if you try to claim otherwise.
jeeze staga, I had respect for you up until this point here but thats really disgusting. I never realized you were such a bigot.
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Originally posted by GScholz
... so did some Americans.
I would like a link... I think it would be an interesting read.
I did a google for "American German Army" or several other iterations, and all I get is standard WWII history sites.
I type in anything with Nazi in it and I get facist hate discussion groups.
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Gscholtz says:
Why are you bringing torture and the terrorists into the discussion? I only commented that if Maverick only was aware of two instances of US prisoner deaths then he is not very aware. The rest of your argument is irrelevant since I am in no way comparing you to the terrorists.
Because several in this thread want to compare the treatment of some of the Abu Ghraib prisoners to the treatment of hostages taken by the terrorist. That comment was not directed at you.
As Holden pointed out I was only talking about the countries Germany actually conquered. Obviously the countries they didn't manage to conquer held out longer.
I am only putting your statement in perspective of the war and other resistance movements.
During the invasion of Norway we did not fight by "a small resistance movement". We fought with several infantry divisions.
Yes for the two weeks Norway held out. Hardly comparable with the other allied nations who took a stand against Nazi Germany from the beginning and were not "neutral until invaded".
During the occupation Norway fought on from Britain. The greatest contribution was probably the efforts of our merchant fleet, which carried one quarter of all goods transported to Britain during WWII. However Norwegians fought in other roles as well in the RAF, RN, and SOE.
Yes there was a small percentage of your population that fought elsewhere as well.
Norway had the largest resistance movement of all nations in WWII. At the end of the war the resistance had grown to more than 40.000 men and women under arms.
I am sure Norwegian History books tell you that.
No it did not have the largest or even the most active resistance. Greece had the most active and Russia had the largest IIRC.
This is not a very popular part of history and thus it has been largely forgotten, but during the late 1930s Hitler called for all ethnic Germans to return to the fatherland. Many German-Americans answered the call. If you have read Band of Brothers (or seen the TV series) you'll remember one of their German POWs was from New York (IIRC).
Sure I think there was a Battalion of former US citizens of German American descent. Just as you state, these people were immigrants from Germany to the United States and had the freedom of choice to return to their native country. They certainly lost their US citizenship.
Big difference though between a handful of immigrants and the standing Norwegian Army under the Quisling Government.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Staga, you just hate the United States no matter what the facts are and will spread lies that suit your view.
I doubt he hates it the way you're saying.
It is really time for some americans to get realistic about it.
There IS NO RIGHT to imprison people without any reason or lawyer for as long as you like - thats what happens in dictatorship.
There IS NO RIGHT to torture people - thats what happens in dictatorship.
There IS NO RIGHT to kill unarmed people, let alone captives, in cold blood - thats what happens in dictatorship.
Unfortunate part is that the current american goverment has done this and seems to still continue doing it in secret, which will sooner or later (again) become public in a way or another.
Meanwhile they're undergoing operations like 'Iraqi freedom' and highly critisizing the brutality by insurgents/terrorists.
Terrorists have killed people in cold blood, kept them in captivity, killed captives..
Unfortunately the US goverment seems to have been doing the same thing.
Maybe US goverment doesn't employ it in such a large scale, but the numbers do not give any right to be a lesser evil. Whether it was two or ten people, it doesn't make it any more right.
The americans, when conducting such operations, should show an example of how things are done, not just do what they're claiming to be stopping from happening.
Yes it might cost few more lives when you do it the proper way, but thats the price of freedom.
Have some of you americans forgot what the freedom is? Or what it is like without freedom?
Often in these forums I feel that alot of europeans are more american than many of the loudest americans here.
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Originally posted by Fishu
I doubt he hates it the way you're saying.
It is really time for some americans to get realistic about it.
There IS NO RIGHT to imprison people without any reason or lawyer for as long as you like - thats what happens in dictatorship.
There IS NO RIGHT to torture people - thats what happens in dictatorship.
There IS NO RIGHT to kill unarmed people, let alone captives, in cold blood - thats what happens in dictatorship.
Unfortunate part is that the current american goverment has done this and seems to still continue doing it in secret, which will sooner or later (again) become public in a way or another.
Meanwhile they're undergoing operations like 'Iraqi freedom' and highly critisizing the brutality by insurgents/terrorists.
Terrorists have killed people in cold blood, kept them in captivity, killed captives..
Unfortunately the US goverment seems to have been doing the same thing.
Maybe US goverment doesn't employ it in such a large scale, but the numbers do not give any right to be a lesser evil. Whether it was two or ten people, it doesn't make it any more right.
The americans, when conducting such operations, should show an example of how things are done, not just do what they're claiming to be stopping from happening.
Yes it might cost few more lives when you do it the proper way, but thats the price of freedom.
Have some of you americans forgot what the freedom is? Or what it is like without freedom?
Often in these forums I feel that alot of europeans are more american than many of the loudest americans here.
I get the impression that you don't know the difference between random events and deliberate systemic acts. Nor do you seem to understand that that collective judgement of the innocent based on the actions of the few is no better than the acts you judge so severely above. In short, you and a few others in this threads come across as hypocrits at best.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes for the two weeks Norway held out. Hardly comparable with the other allied nations who took a stand against Nazi Germany from the beginning and were not "neutral until invaded".
You mean just like USA? What did it take to get the USA into war against Nazi Germany?
And if you count 1 of sept. 1939 as the begining of the war, how long did it actully take USA to join in?
I would use the expession of staga: "Get of your high horses"
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Originally posted by patrone
You mean just like USA? What did it take to get the USA into war against Nazi Germany?
And if you count 1 of sept. 1939 as the begining of the war, how long did it actully take USA to join in?
I would use the expession of staga: "Get of your high horses"
learn to spell before lecturing doofus.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
learn to spell before lecturing doofus.
yeah, nice answer:lol
Du kanske hellre will ha alla kommentarer på Svenska?
i hellenika?
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You mean just like USA? What did it take to get the USA into war against Nazi Germany?
Quite a bit actually.
If you bother to read any of the thread instead of just attacking because I am an American you will see:
I would use the expession of staga: "Get of your high horses"
Is exactly why I replied to Gscholtz's arrogant and somewhat misinformed opinion of his own countries "high horse".
Especially since that is exactly what this whole thread comes down too. Europeans on their high horse making judgements about situations they have very little facts about.
Crumpp
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So the fact that Norway choose to be neutral in the conflict until they where attacked is wrong or not wrong?
And I make this question, because, USA was keeping themselfs out, until war was decleared. And the one saying this, is, if I recall correct, From USA:
Yes for the two weeks Norway held out. Hardly comparable with the other allied nations who took a stand against Nazi Germany from the beginning and were not "neutral until invaded".
What other nations? You mean the other "Allied nations" that where just a little behind on their own invasionplans of Norway?
In a choice between pleg and colera, I choose neither, if I could.
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What other nations?
England and France.
And I make this question, because, USA was keeping themselfs out, until war was decleared.
Exactly. And it was a Norwegian and a Fin in this thread that are tooting their countries own horn.
How can you expect to make a correct conclusion when using two false assertions ?.
He is correct Straffo.
Finland was an AXIS nation in WWII fully supporting the Nazi's and their ideals.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
The third war is called the "Lapland War" and was fought against Germany after the armistice with the Soviet Union. Finland didn't really want to fight the germans but the pressure from Allies (mainly Soviet Union) was so great that the "war" escalated into a real fighting between the former allies in the northern Finland (Lapland). Last german troops were out of Finnish borders on April 27, 1945.
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/finland/summary.html
So it is very much revisionist history to claim they were allied.
Norway was neutral until invaded and then a portion of the population resisted.
However a great many did not.
During World War II a great number of volunteers from Norway served within the ranks of the German Wehrmacht. Prior to 1940, there were few such volunteers, but after the invasion, their numbers increased dramatically totaling around 50,000 by wars end. Nowhere did Norwegians serve in greater numbers than in the ranks of the Waffen-SS, but equal mention should also be made of those who served in the Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe, Heer and in the various auxiliary forces such as Organization Todt and even the Reichsarbeitdients.
http://www.feldgrau.com/norway.html
Note: Only took 1 second on Google to find it.
By the standards of World War Two, the campaign in Norway was small.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/occupation_of_norway.htm
This was the final significant action for the control of Narvik and Norway. Hitler eventually stationed 3,000 men in Norway to guard against another Allied invasion that never came.
The vaunted Norwegian resistance managed to tie up a whole 3,000 troops in the entire country!
The British fought harder for Norway than the Norwegians did!
http://historynet.com/wwii/blconquest/index.html
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/occupation_of_norway.htm
The vaunted Norwegian resistance managed to tie up a whole 3,000 troops in the entire country!
The British fought harder for Norway than the Norwegians did!
http://historynet.com/wwii/blconquest/index.html
Crumpp
Sorry, Crumpp. but its really late here and I dont have the time or power to "google around" for selective url´s that would prove my saying.
There is history "facts" and there is history "facts".
3000 troops?? Look at a map, count naval bases, airfields, border to sweden, costline, roads, major citys.
Border to Soviet: I bet you didnt knew they had that, did you?
Ever been in norway, ever transported yourself on thoose mountainroads to the nothern parts? It is not very smooth, not even today.
Then you must understand that it is a typo or a very large missunderstanding from the writer of that text. 3000 troops in Narvik, yes, this I can belive, but never in the total of Norway.
I asume, the campaign must have considered over, when the King left the Country. Wich was sometime in the begining of June 1940.
The Attack started the 9th of April 1940. Thats about 8 weeks.
Or you might be counting from when the major cities where captured? I am sure, as long as the Army did´nt surrender, as long as it had a Superior Commander in the Country, the fighting was´nt over.
And talking about the Finns, No one put up a greater fight 39-40 and then they joining the attack on the Soviet? Do you blame them?
( I am pretty sure if someone can "bang their drum" they can. They kicked serious ***!)
Was Soviet sacret? After all the split Poland with the Nazis. Did you wage war on them (soviet), did England or France?
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Crump,
I stopped considering anything vidkun schulz has to say on the board. his antaginism and obvious trolling are beneath notice and certainly not worth responding to. He and fishu are blatant in their anti US bias and love to make statements designed to get a response. They simply are not worth dealing with. Both have shown themselves to be total tools.
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Was Soviet sacret? After all the split Poland with the Nazis. Did you wage war on them (soviet), did England or France?
Sure we did, for decades after WWII, and finally won it in the mid-90's!
So your argument is the Finns have the right to get in bed in with Nazi's because they were attacked by the Soviets?
Does the United States have the right to defend itself when it was attacked? To go to whatever country we believe is harbouring or aiding in anyway or enemies? Sure we do.
Sure we have some bad apples, everybody does. We do find and persecute them unlike our enemies. As the Iraqi Justice minister says, "Their legal system has convicted two presidents. Absolutely unheard of in the Arab world."
I stopped considering anything vidkun schulz has to say on the board. his antaginism and obvious trolling are beneath notice and certainly not worth responding to. He and fishu are blatant in their anti US bias and love to make statements designed to get a response. They simply are not worth dealing with. Both have shown themselves to be total tools.
Agreed.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Finland was an AXIS nation in WWII fully supporting the Nazi's and their ideals.
Eh.. in full support of the nazi ideals? Yeah right... please go study bit more of the history before making such stupid claims.
I don't recall having any extermination camps in Finland or having exported all the jews to germany.
The political system wasn't too appealing either.
Finns were allied with the nazis as far as it took to defend own country and regain back the lost territories. No further than that. Otherwise the history would been whole lot different. Where nazi leaders were being executed and same thing done in many other countries which were on the loosers side, Finland didn't have to execute one single person who was in the lead. With the nazi ideals it wouldn't been that nice outcome.
So your argument is the Finns have the right to get in bed in with Nazi's because they were attacked by the Soviets?
Does the United States have the right to defend itself when it was attacked? To go to whatever country we believe is harbouring or aiding in anyway or enemies? Sure we do."
[/B]
Did Finland go to whatever country? Finland didn't even advance much more further than the pre-winter war borders.
Too bad Iraq didn't have much to do with the enemies you're talking about. Didn't even have much to do with the WMD's.... laff.
Finns didn't have to lie about the reasons, it was all too obvious when the russians were coming from the east en masse.
Kind of like Pearl Harbour for americans, there was no doubt where to go. The war crashed right up your faces and there was nothing you could do for a year.
Today you're doing bit too much based on bad lies, just because you can and you don't have to think twice. They're all bad people in the middle east right...?
Maverick,
Again that anti-US wahwah... is that your only excuse nowadays, to instantly call people anti this and that when they're being more objective than you are?
You should take a good look at the mirror when saying such crap like that.
Haven't heard any good stuff from you yet, why? Can't you come up with anything more intelligent than the pre-school stuff?
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Eh.. in full support of the nazi ideals? Yeah right...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Improved_relations_with_Nazi_Germany
Race issues were sources of particular concern: the Finns were not viewed favorably by the Nazi race theorists. By active participation on Germany's side, Finnish leaders hoped for a more independent position in post-war Europe, through the removal of the Soviet threat and the incorporation of the akin Finnic peoples of neighbouring Soviet areas. This view gained increasing popularity in the Finnish leadership, and also in the press, during the spring 1941.
Finland most certainly did participate in the Holocaust and willingly. They were a full and willing partner of the Nazi's.
Finland even had their own SS Battalion.
http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html
I would say you need to study your own history.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Finland most certainly did participate in the Holocaust and willingly.
Crumpp
Not every foriegn volunteer in the Waffen-SS actively participated in the Holocaust or even joined for that purpose, and to suggest every member of the german armed forces was complicit (even the Waffen-SS) is rather naive.
Tronsky
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Not every foriegn volunteer in the Waffen-SS actively participated in the Holocaust or even joined for that purpose, and to suggest every member of the german armed forces was complicit (even the Waffen-SS) is rather naive.
Hardly. We all have a choice. Do I join the resistance? Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Hardly. We all have a choice. Do I join the resistance? Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?
Crumpp
A tad simplistic don't you think?
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Crumpp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Improved_relations_with_Nazi_Germany
Finland most certainly did participate in the Holocaust and willingly. They were a full and willing partner of the Nazi's.
Finland even had their own SS Battalion.
http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html
I would say you need to study your own history.
Crumpp
Crumpp you are making a fool of yourself; You really should read more about Finnish SS troops and what was the story behind them.
Tip: They were also known as pledge battaillon in here; Hitler demanded that Finns had to send troops to fight in SS and in barter we got military equipments, food and ammunitions.
I would say you need to study your own history.
I hope you understand how funny that sounds from your mouth; You think you know what happened in here and are willing to spread your assumptions as facts... I'd say it's you who should study some history.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
He is correct Straffo.
Finland was an AXIS nation in WWII fully supporting the Nazi's and their ideals.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
Depend of the time frame , you are speaking of the Continuation War when I'm thinking of the Winter war.
What do you mean by "supporting their ideal" ?
You mean they sided with the German wich is right and IMO just realpolitik
Or do you mean they applied the nazi doctrine in Finland wich is false ?
Originally posted by Crumpp
Hardly. We all have a choice. Do I join the resistance? Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?
Crumpp
Thinking of the Alsacians I can't agree with this assertion.
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Prisoner abuse my aching ass.
Most of what they have come up with so far is nearly laughable. Boot camp and advance training for our troops is more "tortuous" than what has been brought to life.
It`s war folks. These guys being "humiliated" and "embarrased" had one job and one job only before becoming prisoners. That job was to kill as many U.S. troops as possible.
Maybe we should take a stance of "no quarter" with the enemy. It would certainly solve a lot of problems.
IMHO, get the media out of the military when it comes to things like this and let the military do it`s job.
War is a bloody, dirty business. Our troops have enough to worry about when they enter a war zone without having to worry about some fat, jerkoff, money grubbing exec in a nice warm media office sipping scotch and trying to figure out how to put a spin on stories to milk as much as possible from the public.
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Wow, so little words, so many idiots.
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Crumpp is writing a book? I hope he writes from something he knows better than WW2 history :)
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Another note on the "prisoner abuse" BS.
Do you have any idea how slippery the footwear was that the VC wore?
Rumor has it :D that if you were trying to get info from a group of captured VC, and they were being totaly uncooperative, a little fresh air would usualy do the trick. Take 2, 3 or more on a little refreshing ride in a chopper. When questions were failed to be answered while in the air and one of them "slipped" and fell out it usualy made the remainder quite chatty.
War is hell , aint it?
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9.May At 0000 the German capitulation is officially declared. This is the first time that the Germans surrender with all forces still intact. The number of Germans in Norway is about 375 000.
It took them so long to surrender because the Germans must have been hoping for refuge!!
No it was an American tooting his country's own horn.
Talk about selective data!!
Gscholtz says:
*ROFL* Cobra you unimaginable twit. Norway was fighting the Germans one and a half years before the USA ... oh yes, that's right; the United States of America was neutral until December 11th 1941 when Germany declared war on you. I guess you didn't care about the mass killings of Jews huh? Moron!
We now know that is a gross misrepresentation of Norway's involvement in WWII.
I've decided against buying your upcoming Fw190 book. With your level of research and lack of integrity I don't think it will be worth a damn.
Not relevant and I am not interested if you buy it or not.
You really should read more about Finnish SS troops and what was the story behind them.
Yeah they sat around, toasted marshmallows, and sang edelweiss. Listen to yourselves! What is the next excuse and apologist statement going to be??
Or do you mean they applied the nazi doctrine in Finland wich is false ?
They did apply Nazi doctrine in Finland Straffo. Look down the page at the breakdown of jews killed by country in paragraph 4:
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/print.asp
This table comes from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/055334532X/002-8286239-7536836?v=glance
Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage. However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.
It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.
Why? They supported the Nazi's and played politics.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage. However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.
It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.
Why? They supported the Nazi's and played politics.
Crumpp
The Head Heeb World Tour: Northern Europe
Finland is a country very dear to my heart, both because of the warm welcome I was given during my 1997 visit and because of Finland's protection of its Jewish population during the Second World War. Finland was attacked by Stalin in 1939, which put it on the Axis side of the war by default; faced with the choice between allying with Hitler or being conquered by Stalin, the Finns can hardly be blamed for choosing Hitler. All the same, Finland never became a Nazi satellite; it remained a democracy through the war, and Jews continued to have all the rights of Finnish citizens. Some, in fact, served in the army alongside German soldiers:
The comradeship-in-arms with Germany during the Continuation War did not alter the status of Jews in Finland or in its army. Jewish citizens served in the Finnish army, in women's voluntary defence services and in other duties alongside other Finns. The same was true with regard to all the ethnic minorities, Tatars, Russians, Gipsies, Lapps, without differentiation.
In a quite unique photo, in a snowy forest there is a millboard tent with an iron heating stove, the chimney on the left-hand side - and a number of soldiers are posing outside the tent. The tent is a field synagogue, "Scholka's shul", set up for the Jewish soldiers at the front beside the River Svir in Eastern Karelia. A field synagogue with a Torah Scroll was, no doubt, a very exceptional event in an Army fighting on the German side during the War.
Several Jewish soldiers were cited for bravery in action; a number of them served as company commanders and one as a captain and battalion commander; Jewish army doctors were promoted to the same officer ranks as their colleagues, inclusive of ranks of major.
During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.
I met a number of Jewish war veterans in Helsinki and Turku in 1997, in the course of researching an article I never wrote. One of them, an army nurse, was awarded the Iron Cross for her work in a German field hospital; many others had surreal stories of friendships with German soldiers who would likely have killed them under other circumstances. Throughout the war, the Helsinki synagogue was down the street from the German army headquarters - and, as Jewish veteran Harry Matso told me, the only difference between then and now is that in those days, the synagogue didn't need a security guard.
The Jews of Finland particularly revere Carl Gustav Mannerheim, who led the Finnish armies through the war and briefly served as President. The story goes that Hitler demanded that the Finnish Jews be deported, and that Mannerheim answered "over my dead body." The story has been called into question, but every Finnish Jew I met swore to it, and it would be entirely in character for Mannerheim. What is certain is that on December 6, 1944, Mannerheim became the first Finnish head of state to visit the Helsinki synagogue and thank the Jewish community for its contribution to the war effort, and that every Jew in Finland considers him a great man.
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014825.html
1939 Jewish population of Finland was ~1700; from these 260 was called to arms and ~200 of them served at the front; suffering 8% losses in the war.
Jewish veteran seems to be characteristic: "The Winter War gave us a deeper consciousness of being Finnish and of belonging to Finland more than any earlier period in our history."
Crumpp;
Did you knew that Finnish Jew even got an Cross of Iron in WW2?
You're uneducated; arrogant idiot without any knowledge or even will to search information; How can you think about writing a book?
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Originally posted by Crumpp
They did apply Nazi doctrine in Finland Straffo. Look down the page at the breakdown of jews killed by country in paragraph 4:
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/print.asp
This table comes from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/055334532X/002-8286239-7536836?v=glance
Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage. However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.
It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.
Why? They supported the Nazi's and played politics.
Crumpp
I don't understand how with a lack of data you can have such a conclusion.
The only conclusion acceptable is IMO : it's undetermined.
Any other is just BS.
Why instead of using Norway don't you use Sweden to make a comparaison ?
It's as fair as it's also a nordic country not having been occuped by Germany ... like Finland.
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This guy "crumpp" is writting a book about FW 190??
I need to spread this on the other flightboards to warn them.
Better up, I will send them here to read this thread.
Is it a comic book?
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Lets see Finland. Axis nation during WWII. Staga you must have condoned the mass killing of Jews then huh? Yep you have a feet to stand on. You and your countries opinions can go sit their arses down now.
Lets see Norway. Neutral state during WWII. Yep must have really gave a watermelon about the mass killings of Jews too. Didn't have the balls then to stand up for what they supposedly really believe in. You can do the same as Finland now.
I'm seeing a very distinctive trend here. Where exactly would your countries stand if another Hitler rose to power? Oh that's right jump on the band wagon of the enemy or turn a blind eye and claim neutrality. Yep I'm sure your a real asset to the UN and all of it's allies. :aok
Read your history over again MR cobra. You know nothing about what norway suffered under WW2.
Yes we started as neutral, but was drawn in big time.
And we fought back big time, holding about 300000 german soldiers/airforcecrews in there for you to get the invasjon going.
So insulting my granpa like this, I for sure dont like he was one of the guys holding the German army back for 2 months. (wich was more weeks/months of most of Europe)
Alot of norwegians was killed in cases like the in the Rukjan heavywater assult, then most of the German battleships was sunk in Norway also and it costed lots of Norwegians lifes.
All of the northern part (Finnmark) was burnded down to the ground by the Germans, (no suffer) ?
Alot of people was shot down or tortured by Germans (no suffer)?
You Cobra is the looser here. read your books over you ignorant looser.
PS! I cant really belive somone is dumb enough to post without chekcing facts first, dohhhhhhhhhhhhh :(
and least but not last WE WAS NOT NEUTRAL WE DID FIGHT UNTIL WE LOST ( and after the surrender too, well most of the norwegians)
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Nice hijack. Duck the original threads subject with an irrelevant arguement about a conflict over 50 years before. That way you don't have to discuss the pertinant subject.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by straffo
Why instead of using Norway don't you use Sweden to make a comparaison ?
Shhhhh....................Str affo!!!
Dont mention to him that the "neutral" Sweden sat on its fat ***
during the whole WWII selling ore/ballbearings to both sides.
To tell you the truth, I am very grateful to our goverment during that time: They managed to keep us out of it. We would´nt been able to defend ourselfs, really.
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Ah, national ridicule.
Works for you?!? You have no problem misrepresenting the facts about my country!
There is no deception Gscholtz. I have listed sources with each claim. It's truth, albeit an unpalatable one to most Norweigens.
That was my reply to Cobra, and it was accurate to the letter.
It was hardly accurate Gscholtz as the facts have shown. Norway was a minor campaign at best. Once the short bout of fighting was finished the Norwegien population for the most part embraced the Germans and settled rather comfortably in their roles as subjects.
Only a small percentage joined the resistance. An even larger number joined the German Army!
like how the OSS practically liberated Norway.
Here is a great example Gscholtz! I said that OSS agents were involved in the early days of SOE operations in Norway against the Heavy Water plants. That was a true statement.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1105977820_soenorway.jpg)
http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/foxweb.exe/feedback/feedback?1005296
It's funny that I have used nothing but the truth in this thread. It's just the truth from another point of view.
You Europeans don't seem to like having your countries history attacked. My question is why do you do it to the US?
Pastrone...
You quote somebodies BLOG!! Great source!
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/
Crumpp
:rofl :rofl
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Crump; Would you say Simon Wiesenthal Center is credible source? You know that organization?
The countries of northern Europe tried to remain neutral. The fate of the Jews depended upon the country's degree of autonomy and its citizens' determination to rescue Jews. Denmark and Finland rejected German anti-Jewish orders and saved their Jews. In Norway, which was subject to direct German authority, about 50, (900), of its Jews were killed.
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and all this has what to do with the subject? Can't you guys take this to your own thread?
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Norway was indeed a minore campain, but the resistance in norway was good.
What you say about people embracing the Germans is pretty sick.
hehe this gets dumber to worst of historian knowledge.
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Crump; Would you say Simon Wiesenthal Center is credible source? You know that organization?
Post the link.
Race issues were sources of particular concern: the Finns were not viewed favorably by the Nazi race theorists. By active participation on Germany's side, Finnish leaders hoped for a more independent position in post-war Europe, through the removal of the Soviet threat and the incorporation of the akin Finnic peoples of neighbouring Soviet areas. This view gained increasing popularity in the Finnish leadership, and also in the press, during the spring 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Diplomatic_Activities
About 25% of the men got some form of decoration. No one was awarded the Knight's Cross or the German Cross during their service before the disbandment. Two men received the Iron Crosse and in addition, their names were mentioned in the bulletin "Ehrenblatt des Deutschen Heeres". They receieved diplomas signed by Adolf Hitler as well. After the disbandment in July 1943, some men continued service in the SS. It seems that at least one of them, Obersturmfuehrer Ulf-Ola Olin, received some form of higher decoration.
I would say the Finns fought for Hitler with zest.
http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html
Crumpp
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Well one thing is Norway but Finland had to choose from one bad or another.
Germany or The Soviet Union.
The choosed too fight against their huge neigbour wich was no less in madness than Germany, please dont use that against them now. That is just cruel and not fair, 10 years after the worldwar there was nothing more NATO wanted than getting finland in, but to late.
So basicly under the cold war the NATO wanted Finland in, but could not.
WW2 was lost for Finland and it dont matter who they woulda joined, it was lost from day one because of the huge red Soviet Union right beside them. And for the sorry bellybutton help they got vs them (just norway and sweden tried to help out) the rest of the world was sitting wathcing and waiting. that was in winter 1939/1940.
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What you say about people embracing the Germans is pretty sick.
No it's the truth. In most occupied countries there were more that supported or just sat on the sidelines than those that resisted. There are a few notable exceptions like Greece or in the case of the Holocaust, Denmark.
Gscholtz made the claim about a American SS battalion. Please provide the link and back up your ridiculus claim.
Lets check out a truely sick statement:
Staga says:
Oh, you mean thoose CIA produced snuff videos? Hate to tell you this NUKE: they are not for real, sorry.
Sometimes the truth can be hard to swallow.
As some citizens of Finland and Norway learn.
Crumpp
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Well one thing is Norway but Finland had to choose from one bad or another.
Guess England had to choose between Germany and destruction.
Your correct that Finland had some tough choices to make. I am sure it was comforting to the Jews being packed off to concentration camps that it was all in the name of Finlands independance.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Gscholtz made the claim about a American SS battalion. Please provide the link and back up your ridiculus claim.
No, he made the historically accurate claim that expatriot Germans from many countries, (some born abroad) returned to Germany to fight for the Fatherland. US, Canada, Argentina... lots of countries had ethnic Germans heed the Fuhrer's call.
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This is not a very popular part of history and thus it has been largely forgotten, but during the late 1930s Hitler called for all ethnic Germans to return to the fatherland. Many German-Americans answered the call. If you have read Band of Brothers (or seen the TV series) you'll remember one of their German POWs was from New York (IIRC).
Also the Britische Freikorps , also know as the Legion of St. George, is not something you'll find in many British history books.
The implication is that organized units comprised of AMERICAN's fought for the Germans.
A huge difference from ethnic Germans returning to Germany in the 30's.
Crumpp
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Lets check out a truely sick statement:
Staga says:
Oh, you mean thoose CIA produced snuff videos? Hate to tell you this NUKE: they are not for real, sorry.
Crump why are you intentionally lying? That's something I haven't ever said.
Oh and Wiesenthal Center's addy is http://www.wiesenthal.com
If you really want to know about Jews in Finland during WW2 do some researching yourself (you know what researching means?).
Sorry man but you're a fool; Take care and don't let that ruin your day :)
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That's something I haven't ever said.
No it was Patrone...
Nice link to the center. Now how about to the claims you say they are making?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Guess England had to choose between Germany and destruction.
Your correct that Finland had some tough choices to make. I am sure it was comforting to the Jews being packed off to concentration camps that it was all in the name of Finlands independance.
Crumpp
Just wanted to save this gem :)
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Originally posted by Crumpp
No it was your fellow countryman Patrone...
Same thing right then???
Crumpp
You truly are an idiot :aok
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The implication is that organized units comprised of AMERICAN's fought for the Germans.
A huge difference from ethnic Germans returning to Germany in the 30's.
Where do you guys all come from then? From eggs in the desert?
"Ethnic Germans"? I see, now all of a sudden, they where not "Americans" but "Ethnic Germans".......
Ok, I will call GRUN: "Ethnic Serb" from now on....
And Staga, that was my statement, about the CIA snuffvideos.
And crumpp, I am not Finish, I am Swedish.......We are not countrymen.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Guess England had to choose between Germany and destruction.
Your correct that Finland had some tough choices to make. I am sure it was comforting to the Jews being packed off to concentration camps that it was all in the name of Finlands independance.
Crumpp
Crump; I did some researching for you; you can thank me later :)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/pages/t021/t02183.html
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I retracted that part Staga. You were a little quick on the reply.
However the claims I am making are NO DIFFERENT from the ones you are making in this thread.
Facts are:
Finland was an Axis Nation.
Finland fought for the Nazi's in organized Finnish units under NAZI control.
Jews were deported out of Finland to the concentration camps.
It's all the truth. It's just how you wish to present it. It can be representative of your country and it's people or it can paint a warped picture using the facts.
There are a lot of folks who love to do the same exact thing to the United States over the actions of a few.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by GScholz
Guys, I see no reason why we should continue this "discussion". Crumpp has shown himself to be a liar. His words are worthless.
I totaly agree with you G.
But guys, make sure to tell people about the FW 190 book he is supposed to be writting, ok?
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FINLAND: Republic in Northern Europe. There were 2,000 Jews in Finland between the two world wars. During World War II, the Finns fought the Russians, alongside the Germans. Despite strong German pressure, the Finns refused to enforce anti-Jewish legislation. Jewish refugees were deported from Finland.
Nice. You just packed them off to be slaughtered in the concentration camps.
Finland did not enforce the laws in it's own territory when the Germans were not looking. Rather than stand up to the tyranny you just shipped them off.
Exactly what the sites I posted say.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
China refers to length of time in combat between an allied and axis nation. Not to fighting Germany.
It seems Norway does have a whole four day lead on the rest of the low countries. The German forces in Denmark and Holland surrendered on 4 May and Norway held out until the 8th!!
To characterize Norway as "fighting" though is very misleading.
Norway fought by a small resistance movement. So a small percentage of the Norwegien population fought and a greater percentage helped out in non-combat service support functions as member of the auxillery or underground. Risky but not combat. The underground being expecially risky.
At least as many just existed and some even actively helped the Axis.
Here is a quick overview of the different resistance movements and their contribution to the allied war effort.
http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/res/res-cou.html
http://www.feldgrau.com/a-norway.html
Crumpp
I dont think you have the clue just helping was risky enough, you got shot for that. The resistance was over 400 000 (active) 2.1 mill passive) but only 20 % had guns so they did their best the way they could making illegal papers etc... lots of other things too.
so what do you suggest ? (guerss you are the kinda guy starting trowing stones vs machineguns) ? they did the best they could, and youre talking about your allied as they should be morons, think otherwise.
And anyway the kept 300 000 Germans held up in Norway under the war that helps too.
beside you forgot this from your clip out:
Norway
The Norwegian resistance played an important role in disruoting the German atomic bomb program. Norway was an important source of heavy water. The Norwegian resistance also succeeded in saving most of the country's Jews from the Holocaust.
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Originally posted by patrone
Shhhhh....................Straffo!!!
Dont mention to him that the "neutral" Sweden sat on its fat ***
during the whole WWII selling ore/ballbearings to both sides.
That's not what I implied :)
To tell you the truth, I am very grateful to our goverment during that time: They managed to keep us out of it. We would´nt been able to defend ourselfs, really. [/B]
I agree.
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I dont think you have the clue just helping was risky enough, you got shot for that. The resistance was over 400 000 (active) 2.1 mill passive) but only 20 % had guns so they did their best the way they could making illegal papers etc... lots of other things too.
The Auxillery and Underground were included in my post.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Nice. You just packed them off to be slaughtered in the concentration camps.
Finland did not enforce the laws in it's own territory when the Germans were not looking. Rather than stand up to the tyranny you just shipped them off.
Exactly what the sites I posted say.
Crumpp
Wanna tell us about SS St.Louis? Do you know how many refugees were given Finnish citizenship? Do you know how many jews were dispossessed from Finland?
I don't think your hole is deep enough; better keep on digging :)
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The Auxillery and Underground were included in my post.
Crumpp
Are you a old nazi or a youngster ? :D
read your own stuff mate
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Norway did not save MOST of their Jewish population. Brave countries like Denmark saved 80 percent of their population. Norway managed to hide half. The other half were shipped off to death camps or executed in country.
The Norwegien resistance helped the SOE/OSS destroy the heavy water plants.
Those operations were NOT Norwegien resistance conducted. The allies directed the attacks, organized them, equipped them, and conducted them. Without that support and guidence, those attacks would have never occurred.
You guys think you have license to run rampant with the facts about anything the US does...How does it feel?
Crumpp
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Back to the original thread.
How come no one of this punks superior officers wasnt brought to justice?
Because the thread would be leading up, and up and up, hitting the very topman, the guy that rule your country.
And calling the beheadings "Cia snuffvideos", have you seen them? Now I ask you, where is the blood?
And is´nt it strange that it all accured at the same time as Abu Ghraib was in focus?
And what a coincident, that this "Nick berger" appears in the Moore movie?
Can anyone tell me his buisness in Iraq? Was he just a "backpacker" who wanted a closer look at the war?
I will never buy this "beheading" story, neither that or the ones after, sorry.
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good luck further in your life, I hope you try to educate youreselve better, and dont keep on standing on falling grounds.
not you patrone, but crumps
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Finland even had their own SS Battalion.
I've read couple books about it.
It was not Finland's "SS batallion", more accurate said there was no finnish SS batallion.
There was finnish Waffen-SS troops however. Theres a big difference between the activities of the SS and the Waffen-SS.
The finnish Waffen-SS soldiers fought just like the others and had no part in any of the attrocities.
I do have a respect for these guys, since they're nothing to be ashamed of. They fought against russians like any other finn in the finnish army and nothing more.
Might have something to do with the fact I do know more about it than you do, with your basic assumptions.
If you do think bad of these finnish troops, then you should be just as well think bad of your own army. They were soldiers like yours.
They did apply Nazi doctrine in Finland Straffo. Look down the page at the breakdown of jews killed by country in paragraph 4:
[/b]
Let's see.. it estimates there was about 2000 jews at the time and theres a "-" in the number indicating annihilated jews.
So what was your point again?
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Originally posted by airguard
not you patrone, but crumps
Jag vet, nu psykar vi han lite, du vet, så här. med lite "gott" språk.
Jag kan ju skriva FW 190, han kommer att leta sig fördärvad efter översättningen. Bok kan också vara ett bra ord att använda.
Jag är ju lite Norsk, min Morsa är från Kragerö och resten av min Norska släkt från Larvik, Porsgrun. Var där i somras: Kanonväder!
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holy spiteful hijacking post monkeys Batman!
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Crump he may be right.
China was not conquered by Germany, so it does not count.
Poland 4 weeks, France 6 weeks, Norway 8 weeks.
After the initial conquering, then resistance...
Nope, I think the answer is Egypt. Never was conquerered. Was invaded.
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Let's see.. it estimates there was about 2000 jews at the time and theres a "-" in the number indicating annihilated jews.
Yes, according to http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023
You had them deported to other countries to be killed.
So what was your point again?
My point is that the facts can be used to create a warped perception and still be the facts.
Facts are:
Finland was an Axis country. Did the Finnish people wholeheartily support the Nazi's, of course not. They did what they had to do to survive.
Norway saved 50 percent of her jewish population while under Nazi occupation. This means 50 percent were sent off to die. So were the Norwegiens actively persecuting jews? Probably not. In fact it is much more representative to say that a large portion of the Norwegien population took great risk to save a great number of their fellow citizens.
So why do so many choose to paint with broad strokes such ridiculus conclusions about the United States based on the actions of few miscreants. There is no conspiracy at the Abu Ghraib nor anywhere else in the US Government. Just a few misguided and mostly undertrained national guardsman who exceeded the boundries of allowable conduct. It's a very emotional event to be confronted with the enemy as a prisoner to be questioned. For both the captive and the capture. It takes appropriate training to deal with the situation. Some folks have let their emotions exceed their judgement.
They are being dealt with right now and we will always persecute those who commit such crimes.
Patrone, as for the CIA video theory, get help. That is just completely sick and not worthy of being entertained in a discussion.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes, according to http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023
You had them deported to other countries to be killed.
You picked my curiosity so I've searched a bit and made some phone call.
A grand total of 8 finnish jews (some sources say 11) were deported during WWII
There is a monument called Yad Hashmona near Jerusalem.
IMO Finland was a pretty safe place during WWII compared to a lot of other European countries.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes, according to http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023
So why do so many choose to paint with broad strokes such ridiculus conclusions about the United States based on the actions of few miscreants. There is no conspiracy at the Abu Ghraib nor anywhere else in the US Government. Just a few misguided and mostly undertrained national guardsman who exceeded the boundries of allowable conduct. It's a very emotional event to be confronted with the enemy as a prisoner to be questioned. For both the captive and the capture. It takes appropriate training to deal with the situation. Some folks have let their emotions exceed their judgement.
They are being dealt with right now and we will always persecute those who commit such crimes.
The officers responsible of these guards doesn't seem to be dealt with.
Interesting the guards were able to run amok in the prison, without the officer in charge having any suspicious thoughts.
The officer either a) severely failed in the duty he was put in charge of due to negligence, b) knew about it, but did not stop it, c) gave the command himself.
Some people have been wondering why the hell they took pictures and video of it, which was long long ago explained to be a scaring tactic. They'd show the films or photos to the persons they wanted to reveal their information about the insurgents/terrorists. Try to think of the poor zealous muslim having gay sex or be dominated by a woman. He'd find it rather disturbing and would think twice whether he wants to be a zealous muslim also in the future. They're quite proud folk you know.
Apparently there are also some memos around linking Bush to certain things which shouldnt have happened.
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The officers responsible of these guards doesn't seem to be dealt with.
I know the UCMJ pretty good. It is IMO the most fair justice system in the world. Especially if you are innocent.
There were criminal investigations into the proceedings at Abu Ghraib before the story was even given to the press. General Officers were relieved before this story went to press. I would guess that justice was served in that. These officers are responsible for everything their unit does or fails to do. However you can only take that so far. If the orders were put out correctly then the soldier has a duty to obey them. If he does not, while the officer is responsible for the result, the officer has fulfilled his duty and should not be held criminally responsible. The soldier is criminally responsible. The officer lost their job and will never command again.
Try to think of the poor zealous muslim having gay sex
Most of the devout Muslims I have worked with in the Middle East see no problem with premarital gay sex. As one Afghan told me, "Women are for having babies, boys are for fun."
It is the films of them being naked in front of a woman they are not married too that disturbs them.
Apparently there are also some memos around linking Bush to certain things which shouldnt have happened.
I highly doubt they are of any substance. The Commander and Chief does not usually get down in the weeds like that. He is busy with other things. Now there probably is broad general guidence such as "Interogate Captured Terrorist and obtain needed information as per US legal guidelines" type of memo. No conspiracy here.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Most of the devout Muslims I have worked with in the Middle East see no problem with premarital gay sex.
Crumpp
:rofl OK if you say so.
But I think the Koran says otherwise but please correct me if I'm wrong.
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OK if you say so.
Dude it will turn your Stomach. They threw a party for us as we were leaving the firebase to rotate home. No women, just young boys dressed up as women!!
Needless to say we did not attend.
We even had a "roving patrol" at night armed with batons. Their job was to roam the firebase at night and keep our AMF (Afghan Militia Force) from buggering one another just outside the wire. A couple almost got shot doing that. Since we did not want them doing that inside the Firebase the patrol was needed. Caught like 6 of them going at it in the chow hall one night. We kept seeing them sneak off. Heck, I thought they were stealing chow!! Never would have I thought what they were actually doing. :(
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Dude it will turn your Stomach. They threw a party for us as we were leaving the firebase to rotate home. No women, just young boys dressed up as women!!
Crumpp
Sounds like a prank...>
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Believe me it was not.
Crumpp
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I only wish it was.....
Crumpp
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Originally posted by patrone
Jag vet, nu psykar vi han lite, du vet, så här. med lite "gott" språk.
Jag kan ju skriva FW 190, han kommer att leta sig fördärvad efter översättningen. Bok kan också vara ett bra ord att använda.
Jag är ju lite Norsk, min Morsa är från Kragerö och resten av min Norska släkt från Larvik, Porsgrun. Var där i somras: Kanonväder!
HEHE klart det min venn, vi sees. :)
jævler finnes over alt, definitivt her. Alt for mange syke jævler her.