Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Naudet on January 09, 2002, 02:34:00 AM
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Soon i will finish my 1st year of AH and i have learned a lot, but there is still a situation that gets me most of the times killed.
As you already migh know, my plane of choice is the D9, and everything in here will be based on me flying a D9.
If attacked, i can handle high speed attackers, low speed attackers, but what i really cant handle are those situation were i got someone on my 6 and he is closing slowly and he is already within 800 yrds.
I tried everything, scissors, rolling scissors, skids, barrelrolls etc.
The only time i really got a change against those folks, is when i got lots (8K+) vertikal room below me, than i use my acceleration and rollig to get away.
But if i dont have so much room nothing works.
Now i wonder if its me, or just the charateristics of the D9 that make those situations so dangerous.
I know i cant outturn my hunter and when scissoring against someone with only a minor speed advantage, there is a dam god chance for him to light me up with a long burst.
What can or should i do in such a situation?
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I`ve got the same prob,,,and you are a better pilot than I (so far) ;).I also fly
the dora strickly,,well almost,,,,,sometimes the a5.But I try to make some big waving from side to side,make him get closer,,then a hard turn,chop throttle,go into barrelroll and hope he`ll overshoot,which he normally dosn`t.I guess sometimes you end up like dead meat,,,,,,somebody has to ;)
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Hi Naudet,
I have less experience than you so I wont pretend to know any secret stuff to get you out of this. But think about that from the attackers perspective.. thats pretty much the ideal position to be in as the attacker. If you are flying that D9 and closing on say.. a P47 like that I bet you are already drooling, finger on the trigger and planning where to fit the next the kill mark on your rudder. I would at least :D
If I'm in a better turner I usually just try to flat out turn inside the attacker with a flat break, split s or the like. This occasionally works but usually an attacker who has heard about lag pursuit and yoyos can hang back there and wax me. If I'd be in the D9, there are two things I could try to use. One is the same you mentioned-just trying to outrun him. I know it, you know it, everyone in the arena knows it.. a D9/LA7/P51 jinking and running away on the deck is a fixture of any AH furball scene. If it looks like I won't be able to outrun, then I start with a break/scissors or whatever and when he gets a bit closer I'll try a desperate overshoot move, maybe even spin the plane and just hope that he is a bad shot. If he is not, then I pull out the silk evasion device.
In short, if you get in that situation you will probably get shot down no matter what you try. If some ace has a reliable way to get out of those kinds of situations, sign me up for the training :)
Lapa
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Same is true when flyin the P51.
The problem lies in you having an inferior sustained turning plane than your opponent, if you didnt, you can simply out-turn em. As a general rule (and this aint allways true), but if it can out-turn you, then you stand a good chance of having a sustained speed advantage. This gives rise to two points:
1, You should have used your speed adantage in the first place to have never allowed this to happen.
2, you can simply out-run him. If he has a significant temporary speed advantage over you then you can sissor or barrell roll him. If he holds no significant speed advantage you can jink and 'extend'.
If all else fails, remember that that 190 may well have an acceleration advatange over your opponent, so try slowing him down and using your acceleration advantage to build seperation/E/Speed.
If your not on the deck (which you prolly should avoid) then you can spiral dive in relative saftey, and if your good enuf, and your opponent is stoopid enough you may even cause an overshoot :D
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I must get more presice.
The situation i mean, is were an enemy is already in gunrange, so i cant simply accel away, but not so close that i can force him to overshoot.
If this distance factor is combined with a minor speed advantage of the guy behind, it is almost everytime my death, except in the cases were i got alt to work with.
So an example would be the following.
I am in a D9 at 3k, with speed of 280-300 mph, with a P51, Spit IX etc. hanging 650yrds behind me.
And he is closing with about 10yrds per second.
To me this seems to be the point were i can only die with honor unless i would change my plane.
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In that case im normally dead,,,,,,but pull up hard,stall your plane (pulling the brake)
it`s a desperate manouver,but sometimes you force your opponent to overshot,,,maybe.
When I hear the first pings,and the guy is at 500 yards and closing,I tend to turn to desperate means.
But again Naudet sometimes you can`t do anything about it,,,,
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Well the problem here is that you have pretty much lost the fight at this point. It's almost like saying he's D300 on your 6 with you right in his sights. The situation you describe is mere seconds from enemy guns ripping into your plane, so no matter what you do at this point, you will die most of the time. Hope the other guy is not a good shot or a good pilot, because if he is either you are doomed.
First off, don't get in this situation. In the D9, you can avoid it in most cases if you have good SA and you work at it. Even if it was VS. a P-51 or an La7, you have options before it gets to this point. Say a 0G dive to get both of you to high speed before he's in guns range, then hard maneuvering to drop speed very quickly would have avoided the situation you describe. Basically, if a guy is going to catch you in this situation and you can't run, you'd better make sure his closure rate is high. Often a good way to do this is to take the chase to high speed, then chop throttle and use hard barrel rolls, scissors, or whatever to increase closure and go for an overshoot. One thing the FW has always done well is dump speed in hard maneuvers. :)
Assuming we are already in the situation you describe, there is really only two things you can do.
1. If you have some kind of a sustained speed advantage, you can try to dive and jink away. Hope he's not a good shot and/or doesn't get lucky. If you don't have a speed advantage to escape, all that's left is an overshoot. One good idea is to use hard breaks to prevent being shot, and when he breaks to avoid the overshoot use that for maximum separation to make your escape.
I'm assuming here that you won't have a sustained turn advantage over anything in the D9. :)
2. Force an overshoot. Now at this point, you better hope he isn't a great shot, and he isn't smart enough to sit back and wait you out. If you don't think you can escape, say vs. an La7, this is what you are going to have to do. It's bad odds, but you MUST try and force the overshoot. Chop throttle and maneuver HARD. On the edge of stall. Watch your speed, and get throttled back up as your speed drops close to your stall speed. If you have flaps, use 'em to get you slowed down. You can do a barrel roll underneath, or some kind of scissors. Try not to do a move that goes upward at all, as this will allow your attacker an easy shot. Watch him carefully, and if he overshoots, be ready to nail him for it right then. If he's smart and drops to lag or goes vertical to stay behind you, use the separation to 0G dive and gain some E before he comes back again.
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I think its not a shame to die in that situation. ( I mean Naudet) I have some experience of fight vs you and if someone gets in to ur 6 he must be a good pilot. :D
Those "battles" vs Naudet are like this:
Nice beautiful sky and everything seems to be clear. Suddenly my plane blows up and I see a message : you were shot down by Naudet
:rolleyes:
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IMO scissors and rolls are about your last option. If you go verticle at all in the D9, with a bogy that close, you're dead. Unless that bogies pilot is a total newby.
About all you can do is go for the overshoot, maybe even get off a snap shot during a scicoser and roll out on in unexpected direction to get more seperation.
Westy
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In this situation, I have a move I always like to use and it is incredibly effective. Ideally you will have about 1K between you and the attack, 800 works if it has to sometimes.
What I like to do is go into a gentle turn, getting the attacker to commit to lead pursuit. This is crucial. If the attacker chooses lag pursuit, nose down as much as you can and try to get some more separation and set up another attack. Ok, so you have the attacker in lead pursuit trying to get guns on and you are in a gentle turn. As the attacker begins to close, pull the turn tighter and tighter as he gets closer and closer. JUST when U feel the attacker has a guns solution, reverse hard and UP at about 45 (or more). I like to do this around 300 yards or so, depending on how tight yer turning. What should happen is this ... the attacker will reverse back with you looking for flat scissor. You are up above him, wait, and roll down on him (or use this opportunity to extend).
And I agree that rolling and flat scissors especially in the D9 are quite effective in this situation as well ... possibly even some vertical scissor if you are comfortable with it. The key as Lephturn stated is getting that overshoot so that you can gain guns or the opportunity to extend. Use all the tricks you can to get that overshoot, throttle chop, flaps and even eng kill if the situation calls for it.
If you want to work on that move I described, give me a shout anytime I am in the MA (or any other arena) and we'll head to TA to work on it.
Hope this helps...
Nim
PS
I have this on film as well if you would like to watch it (I think). Shoot me an email, nimitz@huckabay.net if yer interested and I'll dig 'em up.
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I'm interested nimitz. bob.lefevre@shlgroup.com
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LOL Nim, that sounds awfully similar to what I do in that situation.
Against a P51, it is actually pretty easy to get away, even if they are closing slowly within 800 yards or so.
I usually do almost exactly what Nimitiz jsut said, at least I think. I'll describe it just in case I read it wrong.
I'm screaming along on the deck at 350 mph or so with a P51 on my 6. He dove down as I was running away from a Spit, but I want to run to put some distance between us and the Spit before I kill him. (And yea, that is actually how I think in that situation, too :D).
I'll run until either A. The P51 closes to within 600 yards, or B. The Spit is out of icon range. At that point, I normally do a gentle (1-2 G) turn to the right, and watch to see what he does. If he tries to pull LEAD on me, I tighten the turn up to 4-5G or so (not quite a blackout). This is the point where feel plays a big role. You can pull this on Spits also, but it is quite a bit harder since they decelerate and accelerate about as well as a Dora does. Once I think the Bandit is about to hit his trigger (usually 450-600 yards on my end, farther if it has been real laggy), I roll level (or at least closer to level), and then do a barrel roll around where the bandit *should* be if he has gone for the kill. In most cases for me, it is a "left" barrel roll.
At this point you have 4 options, which depend on what the bandit has done. Option 1: If the Bandit has missed his shot, but it real persistant (or not to bright), he will attempt to follow you through the roll. This will lead to you being on his tail in anywhere from 1 to 3 rolls, depending on how much faster he was *** OR: if you opponent is a Spit, F6F, P38, Zeke, or some other good turning but rather slow plane, you MAY not get on his tail at all. Instead he will slow down rapidly as you both roll. At the point where he has gone from being beside you to beginning to drift behind you (i.e. you will get your bellybutton shot down if you keep rolling), it is time to break off the fight. Roll like you normally would, but instead of continuining to roll after you and the bandit "pass" eachother, keep pulling until you are headed 180 degrees AWAY from the bandit and run like hell.***
Option 2- If the Bandit didn't bite, but instead went high (instead of going for the kill), you can follow him up if you think you can make it.
Option 3- Or, if the bandit went high, you can roll to a new heading and get your speed back up, to do it all over again.
Generally, most people that try to BnZ get a little careless. If after you start your turn, they immediately go high, you are probably facing either a newbie, or someone that is new to BnZ. I usually let them go high, and come back down again 2 or 3 times. After they have gotten careless (i.e. they "know" what you are going to do), instead of levelling out after they go up, I'll simply go into a gentle zoom after them out of the gentle turn. Usually they will either lose you completely (which means a really easy kill), or they will panic and do stupid things (which is only a slightly harder kill).
Creating an overshoot is really all about timing. It helps to have a good roll rate and a decent turn rate, but a good sense of timing is absolutely critical.
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...Or you can disregard all this complicated stuff and do what most 190 pilots really do in this situation -- start yanking the stick side-to-side as fast as humanly possible until the other guy runs out of ammo or gets bored and leaves. :)
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Well said Urchin ... that is exactly what I do except I am a bit more aggressive and tease them into thinkin' I am going for flat scissor so they will whip around as I roll up and then back down on them. Excellent description tho ...
NIm
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Naudet
Depending on your relative performance capability compared to the attacker, your choices are:
1. A hard turn, either in-plane or out of plane.
2. A rolling maneuver.
3. A jink out.
4. An in-plane weave.
5. Or one of several "last ditch" maneuvers.
Please note that a scissors is not mentioned. This is because a scissors is a "reactive" maneuver. not a "proactive" maneuver. This means that a scissors is something that you do as the result of a bandit overshoot. It is NOT something you do to cause an overshoot.
1. Hard turn. An in-plane turn, commonly referred to as a "break", is good when you can generate a turn radius that is smaller than the attacker can. Note...this is only a function of the speed that the attacker is at, not the type of aircraft that the attacker is. A Zero at 350mph will overshoot a hard turning blivot at 250mph if they can both generate the same G!
The out of plane hard turn is often the Split S in a guns defense.
2. Rolling maneuver. What makes a rolling maneuver "work" well is that the attacker must pull lead to successfully track the target. When that target is rolling with considerable G, the attacker will have a difficult time getting "inside" that roll.
You may roll either into or opposite the direction of turn. Note that once you are in the defensive turn, there is seldom the excess G available to allow you to perform a rolling maneuver into the attacker as most see it.
3. Jink out. In your situation, this is often your best bet, particularly if you are slow. A jink out is a series of rapid rolls followed by hard pulls. The idea is to not allow a steady target for the attacker to aim at. If done unloaded, the jink may also allow you to gain some speed.
4. In-plane weave. Sometimes called the Level S Defense. Difficult to perform without getting shot. This is a "timing" maneuver that is based on getting the attacker "out of phase" with the defender. Usually initiated from a hard break that is not working...the defender suddenly unloads while maintaining his bank. He shoves negative G and watches the attacker's nose. He hopes to surprise the attacker...the result is that the attacker will either bunt or roll to follow the unload. When the defender sees the bunt or the roll, he then pulls hard into the attacher attempting to force an overshoot. This drill may be repeated more than once.
5. "Last ditch" maneuver. Typical of these are the High G Rolls, either "over the top" or " underneath". Both are very rapid energy depleters and intend to force a longitudinal overshoot rather than an angular overshoot. A throttle chop can acccentuate the increase in closure. The reason for the "last ditch" term is that if the maneuver doesn't "work", then you've had the course.
Andy
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]
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Ask Apar or NathBDP
$@#$#@ 190 basterds.
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Andy,
Please explain why scissors cannot be used to force an overshoot. I regularly use the rolling, flat and vertical scissor with a bandit on my 6, closing, to facilitate an overshoot.
Nim
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what nimitz describes is what I have always called a break turn. in the situation you describe naudet, I believe this is your best bet. It is really effective if both of you have a considerable amount of spped, say 300+. You have to start the turn gentle, gettting him to commit to a shot. as he gets closer gradually increase your rate of turn till hes right at the 600 yard mark and then pull hard enough for him to miss. Then immediately rool your AC upright and in the same movement pull up slightly and roll it inverted. This should allow you to keep vis on him and your canopies should be next to each other. Continue your roll with a little rudder and you should be able to get under and behind him. He will likely try to roll with you and both of you will go into a rolling scissors. If the enemy pilot sees the bait early on and does not commit to your turn, then this is more trouble. Hopefully you have some altitude to play with.
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aknimitz
The point here is terminology...specifically, BFM definitions.
A scissors of any type is a maneuver flown to counter a bandit angular or longitudinal overshoot. By definition.
The maneuver(s) that you describe to force an overshoot have other names...rolling maneuver, hard turn, break turn, etc.
Misuse of BFM terminology is common on these forums and happens when enthusiastic simmers try to describe something they've seen or done. A good example is the term "snap roll". This is an aerobatic maneuver, not BFM. If flown as BFM, it should be called a High G Roll Over the Top (or Underneath).
It's more than just a confusion of terms. A snap roll is not flown like a High G Roll, although the two maneuvers superficially resemble each other.
And that's where the problem lies. Folks are familiar with the snap roll term, and try to replicate it as a BFM maneuver and then use that term in conversations with others.
To begin with, not all sims will permit the maneuver to be flown...their flight model just won't hack it. Second, their description of the term may well cause confusion when someone knows the difference. That person is left wondering, "Did he really mean "snap roll"...or something else...because a snap roll wouldn't do diddley in that situation".
It's tough to ask for, but we all need to be on the same sheet of music when we talk BFM. How does someone get there? Not very easily. Read Shaw for starters...but that only goes so far since that book really is intended for folks that already have a pretty good background in the basics.
Outside of that, all I can suggest is that folks keep an open mind, ask questions, and don't make this an ego thing. (Not that anyone has here...but it's happened elsewhere!)
Andy
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Andy are you implying that flight sim pilots hjave large ego's? where in the world would you get that idea...? ;)
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Hiyas,
Thanks for the clarification, I certainly was unaware of that. I have Shaw's book but honestly at times it is a bit overwhelming for me. I certainly do not claim to be an expert, hell I'm no where near one. I'll try to readh back through Shaw's book some and see if I cannot get a better handle on some of the terminology.
Nim
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Both the answers of Nimitz and Urchin sound very interesting.
The actually problem i have with them is the "timing" aspect.
I tried them couple of times, but what was very astonishing to me, that very often i was killed around that 600 yrds mark, when i already gave my hunter a 60-80 degree def angle.
Might this be a connection issue? Cause from time to time my latency changes from day to day in a range of 200ms-400ms.
And one big question to urchin about barrel rolls in the FW190.
As we both know the bird rolls like hell, especially between 300-360mph. So how much roll input you give into the barrel roll?
To me it seems i often give to much, and so due to the incredible roll rate of the FW the diameter of the barrel is really really small, what makes it easier for the hunter to get a good amount of hits bye simple spray&pray.
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Naudet
As a guns defense, the barrel roll is a slow roll as compared to an aileron roll. Use more G than aileron when doing the barrel roll. Use rudder only to offset adverse yaw.
The objective is to move the a/c laterally as well as in pitch. In this slower roll, your flight path is constantly changing. The attacker has to match that roll rate and establish a lead point in your flight path as well. As a simple "stick and rudder" exercise, this is not easy, and is why the maneuver is effective as a guns defense.
The main problem is that the maneuver doesn't do anything for getting you out of trouble...it only keeps you from getting hit at that moment.
It is possible to perform this maneuver very aggressively...possibly throw in a throttle chop for good measure...and cause an unwary attacker to overshoot. Most experienced attackers, however, when they see the roll beginning, will just hang back and wait for the airshow to end before they reinitiate their attack.
When performed in an aggressive manner, the barrel roll defense starts getting close to becoming the High G Roll defense...a maneuver flown to defeat a gun attack by causing an overshoot...whereas the barrel roll is intended to deny the attacker an effective aiming opportunity.
Andy
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What Nimitz said on his first post is one of the best ways to increase your probability of defeating his gun solution, and to put you into a position to kill him. I would also add, try doing your break turn with your nose going below the horizon. Your lift vector should still be on the bandit. This will increase the difficulty of his shot.
Another tip. When you are rolling back into the bandit you will lose sight of him briefly. Switch to your top view and you will see his tracers(if he has them on) this will give you a good indication on his flight path.
Drex
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Lift vector control brings up an important distinction. We need to be careful about exactly what we are talking about.
In the example that started this thread, the defender is using a guns break as a defense.
This defense has two parts...one part is the attempt to defeat the attacker's flight path...in other words, to cause him to overshoot. The second part is the attempt to defeat his gun attack...in other words to maneuver out of his bullet stream.
To a certain extent, these objectives can conflict with each other. Here's why:
When we break into the bandit for the purpose of forcing an overshoot, we do it in the attacker's plane of motion. This means putting your lift vector on the attacker. As Drex pointed out, you may bias your lift vector position slightly by orienting it below the horizon. This tends to preserve energy while you are pulling G.
Try to remain as close to the attacker's plane of motion as possible. Any out of plane maneuvering will give the attacker additional turning room that he might use to minimize his tendency to overshoot.
So, to cause the attacker to overshoot, we maneuver hard in his plane of motion.
But what about the second objective...making him miss?
We begin by remembering that the attacker's bullet stream in essentially in his plane of motion (assuming he maintains a constant attitude/bank angle). The longer we stay in that plane of motion, the more chance there is that we may get hit if he is firing. That's a very big "if".
If the attacker is firing, we want to get out of the bullet stream ASAP...and that means getting out of his plane of motion. I suggest visualizing his wingtips as the area that you want to point your lift vector at (if the attacker is in a bank, orient your lift vector, altitude permitting, at his low wing). Roll until your lift vector is pointing at his wingtip and then break hard. Maintain this G for a good 3 seconds or so...long enough to move your position away from the bullet stream. Then unload and reassess your position. Be ready to repeat this maneuver if the attacker is counter-maneuvering for another shot.
So where are we? The real issue is one of whether or not the attacker is firing. Often this is related to range and attacker nose position. If the attacker is at a longer range...or his nose is not in lead...then I break hard in-plane to work an overshoot.
If the bandit is at close range or anytime I see his nose in lead, I break out of plane to defeat the bullet stream.
Andy
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Holy Jesus. TRANSLATOR PLEASE! :D
Andy, you a real pilot? Please tell me I just didnt ask a ridiculously stupid question, your not like Shaw incognito are you? :eek:
Nim
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Andy, i think i just (maybe like nimitz) got half the vocabulary you are using. Seems you are a pro in respects of flying.
So i need a couple of definitions to clearly understand what you mean, i am just a sim pilot and so i may have used some of the terms, but not in the right way.
"lift vector" - when i use top view (90 degree up) i look along my lift vector, cause its the vector generated by the lift of my wings, is that right? In a sideview drawing, the liftvector would be shown as an up arrow, roughly 90 degree up to the wing and fuselage axis.
"putting my lift vector on the enemy" - this means i try to bring my lift vector (top view) on the nme. i.e. i attack a lower plane, that breaks, i go UP, roll in the vertikal, so that when he comes out of the break, i just need to pull back on the stick to fall in behind him, right?
and what you exactly mean by this
I suggest visualizing his wingtips as the area that you want to point your lift vector at (if the attacker is in a bank, orient your lift vector, altitude permitting, at his low wing). Roll until your lift vector is pointing at his wingtip and then break hard.
i tried to visualize that but couldnt really get it, lets say we both fly a turn with 25 degree bank, so too evade his shot (when he opens up with his guns) i roll till my lift vector points 25 degree below the horzion and than pull hard to move it on the lower wingtip of my hunter?
For you that might look like stupid questions, but i should add that english is not my native language, i am from germany and so i might misunderstand some terms.
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hmmm....think I've been on the recieving end of nim and urchin more thsn once :).
Naudet, I usually end up in the exact situation you describe on a regular basis...it happens one of two ways:
1) I've been T&Bing and am low and reloading E and a con has crept in toward the fight during the end game...I may pick him up early but if he's low he'll often get in close before I see him
2) I break off an attack due to a new threat and have 1 or more cons in pursuit...usually an la-7 or 190 with a nikki(s) or spit in tow.
The 1st key here is your initial SA isnt right on...you know he's there...but you've misjudged his E level...any evasive designed to exploit a negative E situation simply increases his shot opportunity and selection...If I see a con inside a thousand I imediately drop the nose hard...a little neg G never hurts anything...I then zero G out and see if he's any closer...if so you go to break moves...if not dump the nose again and see if you can extend...going back to your question...I like to "porpoise" a bit...quick vertical moves...if con is slowly closing but inside the outer guns envelope (say 1.0 to 800)...on the 2nd or 3rd "dive" I'll chop throttle and go up and down quickly...ideally I'll get him focused on a shot as he closes...my key here is to create a neg E state relative to him...now I'll go to the above mentioned break turn as he prepares to shoot...Ideally he'll pull hard to chase the shot and my out of plane reverse will set up the situation that nim and urchin described.
I've found the better pilots will sit on the flat turn a little better without a distraction. Ideally the initial vertical will get thinking with their gunsight....course if you cut it to close you feel (and look) like a total dweeb as your tail gets chopped off at 500 or so :(.
snaphook
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For those who dont know Andy is the real deal...in addition to sheparding around an overgrown cigar tube for a living he's flown ACM were they played for keeps and taught it as well (MD-80 and thuds if I remember correctly).
If you bear with him he'll eventually boil it down to where even us sim heads can figure it out...almost :).
Anyway glad to see you back on the BBS.
All the Best
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I can try to explain some stuff as I see it.
Andy is saying that when we "break" into an enemy (i.e he is coming slightly from the left, so we roll left and then pull hard for the "break turn") we actually INCREASE our chances of getting hit because we are presenting a bigger target to his guns, which lie in his plane of motion.
To avoid that, I only use the break to "set up" my real evasive move, which I usually just call a barrel roll, but Andy described as a High G defensive roll (I think).
I think what he is saying is that we really have two problems- 1. We have to get out of the bandits way so we don't get shot, and 2. We have to avoid getting shot while performing #1.
For me in a Dora or a G10, I look at it as a matter of equalizing energy states. If a bandit is closing on my 6 by a little bit, but is co-alt with me, he has a little bit more E than I do. I know that if my plane can accelerate faster, I can regain E faster than my opponent. So if a P51 is closing on my 6, I'm not particularly worried, but if it is an La7 I'm close to messing my pants.
If you have a slow accelerating plane like a P51 closing on you, it is to your advantage to lower both of your E states (i.e speed), because you will get yours back faster than he will.
I used to do a flat turn, followed by another flat turn back into the bandit, but that doesn't work real well in my opinion. First of all, you are staying in the same plane relative to your attacker, and secondly you are just burning speed (and therefore energy) and not getting anything back for it. I've tried a few other variations (including a high turn (relative to the attacker), followed by a quick 180 roll and a "low turn" (again relative to the attacker, this one back into him). This is a good move for getting away from people, but its offensive potential is limited in my opinion. So I have settled on the barrel roll defense for now as the 'best' solution.
Oh, and for my barrel roll, it is actually mostly elevator, with a little aileron or rudder thrown in for the "roll" part. The goal is to "move" your plane in a big a circle as possible, to make it hard for the enemy to kill you. Of course, the larger the circle, the more speed you lose, which can make it tough to go for the kill if they do overshoot. I actually never look straight ahead while I'm doing it, I am looking at the bandit and using him as a point of reference on whether my roll is to large or to small. If he doesn't go after me at all, I make a pretty small circle, turn to a slightly different heading (to put him behind me again), and level out for speed. It is very important to ALWAYS be at at LEAST 300 mph (True, not indicated) before you start the evasive, any slower and you will be to slow from the flat turn to make a decent roll.
On the other hand, if I see him rolling to try to get back in-plane with me, I just widen the roll some (make it bigger from his POV).
[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Sorry, guys!
I didn't mean to confuse the issue. If you get the chance, stop by SimHQ's Air Combat Corner and take a look at my "It's All A Matter of Perspective" and "A2A Gunnery" articles for an in-depth discussion of these concepts.
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml)
For now, here are a couple of pictures that might help. I think you all have got the basics pretty much right...let's just fine tune it a bit!
Here's the concept of the lift vector. Most folks visualize it as coming out of the top of the canopy...or use the rudder as a lift vector pointer. You can use the lift vector as an approximate indication of your flight path when turning.
An attacker's gun line is also in his flight path, so his lift vector is a good indication of where his bullet stream will be.
(http://webpages.charter.net/alfakilo/13.gif)
Next, here's an external view of the defender and attacker. The defender's lift vector is aligned with the attacker's. If the defender pulls G now, his flight path will remain in the attacker's flight path (gun line).
But if the defender rolls to move his lift vector, then pulling G will fly the defender out of the attacker's flight path (gun line).
(http://webpages.charter.net/alfakilo/12.jpg)
If this is still not clear, let's keep the thread going and I'll try harder to explain the concepts.
Andy
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aknimitz
"Shaw incognito?"
Naw...I'm a real pilot! He's just an aviator!
Just kidding!! :D
Shaw is a Navy pilot and I'm a USAF pilot. We have similar backgrounds. His book is the best source for A2A info on the civilian market, and I strongly recommend it.
Andy
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Hiyas Andy,
That certainly helps clear things up for me...and thanks for the link, I'll go do some reading.
Ok, now that I know what a lift vector is, will this help me kill Drex?? :rolleyes:
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Andy, there seems to be a prob with ur pics, i cant see em.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Andy, there seems to be a prob with ur pics, i cant see em.
Yep...I goofed up my webspace. I think it's OK now.
Andy
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Andy were you not Airforce and if so is there any airforce books or info available for us all to get and read.:cool:
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
His book is the best source for A2A info on the civilian market, and I strongly recommend it.
Andy
Yeah, what indian said! Any good post WWII official reading available on the net?
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Indian and Vector
Unfortunately, Shaw's book is the only book that I know of that covers A2A in that level of detail.
There are other books available, but nothing that comes close to Shaw.
Tray Amazon or Barnes and Noble on-line for other titles.
Andy
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Ok Andy take all the stuff you wrote on the SMHQ web site and make the book Your explanations were very good, more down to earth then shaws. Dont know if you saw DocDooms books but be nice to have your stuf so it can be carried around and read when time permits.