Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Red Tail 444 on January 17, 2005, 04:22:09 PM
-
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144561,00.html
Line him up and shoot him, bleeding heart liberal :rolleyes:
-
Is it possible to enjoy war? ... To be pro-war? Pro-death?
"War is t3h w1n! I <3 D&D!"
Unless you've been killing and judo chopping since birth, hardened beyond belief, and have lost any and all semblence to humanity or human beings, then I would expect the answer to be a simple no.
If this particular Sgt refuses to deploy, then fine, let him face the consequences of his decision. He volunteered for this.
But to insult or degrade someone for not not enjoying, not being pro-war, pro-death, is sick. Soldiers follow orders - whether they enjoy it, or are for, or against it, is beside the point.
-
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144561,00.html
Line him up and shoot him, bleeding heart liberal :rolleyes:
No problem.
For everyone of these guys there is a hero like yourself to take there place.
When do you ship out?
-
Alvin York was a conscientious objector...
-
Benderman's unit, the 3rd Forward Support Battalion, was leaving for Kuwait on Jan. 5. When commanders ordered him to deploy while they processed his objector application, he refused to show up for his flight.
....
"You should have had the moral fortitude to deploy with us and see me here in Kuwait to begin your CO application," Army Chaplain Matt Temple said in a recent e-mail to Benderman. "You should be ashamed of the way you have conducted yourself. I certainly am ashamed of you."
I couldnt agree with the chaplin more. He "missed a movement" wich is worse than AWOL. I don't have any problem with this guy being a CO be he should have followed proper procedures and he shouldnt have waited for deployment to file it.
-
I commend him for actually 'being' the change he wants to see in the world instead of saying, "well that's just the way the world is"..
I say right on dude, because as we all know, as long as there are militaries there will be war..
-
Gunslinger,
I agree, he blew the proper process. He doesn't get the choice to only serve when it's convenient. He should face the consequences of his choice.
-
Holden McGroin has a huge point. But then again, York's chaplain sat him down and told him that they were fighting the good fight.
While he didn't necessarily call him a *****, York went to fight.
-
Isn't a 10-year old too young anyway? :o
-
Tough call.
On the one hand he had decided by his own choice to stay in the armed forces for 10 years and had already been in a combat zone prior
And this is not a case like the one where the guy resigned and after a couple years the military wants him back. In that case I have to side with the guy who resigned
On the other hand its not hard to understand how or why someone wouldn't want to go back or couldn't.
Question is what do you do with him?
Who would be willing to serve with him?
But you cant just let him off either.
He was clearly wrong for not showing up and deploying while the request was processed
His major mistake was in waiting till the last minute to submit that request.
Had he done so as soon as he got back he would have my sympathy?
Now I cant say he does.
I think the folks here who have actually served would better be able to say what they think should be done with him. Certainly with more legitimacy then whose of us who haven't.
I'll go along with whatever the general concessus of those folk think
-
It's really simple, Some people don't discover there a coward until the time comes to enter combat. When they discover their own cowardace they attempt to redeem themselves by claiming some type of moral superiority, in this case CO. Before anyone jumps on me about the Military. USN Retired 1962-1992 Master Chief E9.
Sargent Yorks objections where genuine and based on religious principles. He sorted them out and the rest is History.
-
I find it funnay that his chaplain is ashamed of him.
-
If he feels that strongly about going to Iraq and war, then he shouldn't go.
-
Originally posted by Furious
I find it funnay that his chaplain is ashamed of him.
the chaplin is a soldier and knows that soldiers are required to follow orders. He was ordered to return to Iraq while his CO request was processed. He refused to follow those orders. Failure to go and missing a movement are shamfull acts. I'd feel sorry for the guy if he'd come back from Iraq the first time and decided THEN that he'd had enough.
Also keep in mind this. This guy has 10 years in....he's no private....there's no excuse here. He KNOWS what's expected of him.
I just ticked over 9 years in service two weeks ago. At this point in the game I cannot get away with playing dumb.
-
Originally posted by Swager
If he feels that strongly about going to Iraq and war, then he shouldn't go.
Fine.... as long as he repays the US taxpayers 10 years salary.
You see when the time came to earn that pay, he claims he's unqualified,
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Fine.... as long as he repays the US taxpayers 10 years salary.
You see when the time came to earn that pay, he claims he's unqualified,
USN Retired 1962-1992 Master Chief E9
Hush words. And what did you do, operate the potato peeling machine?
So many BS guys claiming BS.
Would love to see how many of you runs off when the draft comes along.....
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I cannot get away with playing dumb.
Holden's SC Resolution 1542
Noting that you left yourself open for a quick sacrcastic comeback,
Resolves that the opportunity will pass without comment.
-
Originally posted by Swager
If he feels that strongly about going to Iraq and war, then he shouldn't go.
See thats where I differ.
If he were drafted I'd agree. I am whole heatedly against a draft.
Then you are forced to serve and fight even if you never wanted to
But he volunteered for the service.
And if he was in for 10 years he did so more then once
and there lies the difference
If you volunteer you know the score going in that there is a chance you may have to go to war or a war you dont like. Thats the chance you take.
You dont just say all of a sudden Im against it or in this case "Im not going" when it doesnt suit you.
Now I can understand someone may loose their nerve or be against the war but.
If he feels that way. He should have put in the request long ago and not at the last minute. .
-
Points have already been made but seperately. Maybe it will help to make them together.
First, he is a 10 year vet so he knows the system and how it works. If he had any questions he would have known how and where to find the answers.
Second, he has already served one hitch in Iraq. He certainly has had the oportunity to see what that situation is like.
Third, he waited until shortly before his unit was ordered to deploy BEFORE declaring CO status. Given the unit rotations he had knowledge ahead of time before deployment to file instead of waiting until deployment date to decide not to comply with orders. If he was really serious he should have filed as soon as his unit returned from Iraq from his first hitch there.
Fourth, Even if he has applied he still has to continue to serve. It is normal to place a CO status claimant in a non combat position. It doesn't mean that he can't be expected to be in the line of fire, he just wouldn't be expected to bear arms. There are other duties (example Medics) that are in the line of fire but do not bear arms and many in the past were in CO status. A CO does not make it impossible to serve, just that you are not expected to carry arms in combat. Every unit, especially battalion and above level, has admin positions he could serve in out of combat duty status.
Fifth, He failed to apear for duty. This places him in a deserter status and certainly will not help his case for CO. It will likely end up costing him jail as well as dishonorable discharge.
-
He has abandoned his brothers and sisters in unirform.
Poor bastard.....at least he is alive and in one peace, eh?
-
He was already in a non-combat unit and says he has never fired a gun in anger.
He should be allowed his conscience, but he has to accept his responsibility too.
-
He has every right to the choice he made and he must pay the appropriate consequences.
Sargent Yorks objections where genuine and based on religious principles.
weaselsan.. you have no idea how genuine this guy's objections are. Nothing but speculation chief. Maybe he looks like Gary Cooper and ain't afeared 'o nuthin.
-
WTF is the matter with some of you guys?
First of all, Patrone- STFU. You have no idea what Weaselsan did for thirty years in the military, although we can assume he did much more than peel potatos or he wouldn't have made E-9. You have absolutely no right to denegrate this man's service to his country nor do you have the right to classify him a "chickenhawk" unless you have proof he refused orders into a combat zone-just like the arse you are defending did. :rolleyes:
<> Weaselsan, I appreciate what you have done for me and my country.
Now here's the way it is when you "join" the military-
They own you. They tell you where to go and what to do- and sometimes where you go and what you do is dangerous, So dangerous, in fact, they give you guns and you dress in camoflague. There is no surprise here- it's not like the Devil tricking you into a deal. You know the potential concequinces but when you take that oath defend the Constitution
Once you take the oath to serve and protect you are honorbound to fulfill that oath. To take ten years of the benefits, then to refuse to deply now, is unconcionable. I can have respect for those who fled the draft but I can't respect a person who sucks up all the bennies then refuses to go.
We have an all volunteer military and he has no excuse- the bottom line is this guy is a coward and a disgrace. I'd say Court Martial him but it's probably best to discharge him and forget the POS.
-
white feather
-
Originally posted by wombatt
No problem.
For everyone of these guys there is a hero like yourself to take there place.
When do you ship out?
Put some sarcasm goggles on, and don't take things so seriously.
Frankly, since God gave us all the ability to engage in Free Will, I respect his decision to change his mind.
As far as my shipping out is concerned:
I ship out every day my taxes are paid to fund this war.
And, since the Army says so, since my relatives and loved ones serving in the military are over there, therefore, so am I.
And the weather sucks, BTW
-
This guy is not a conscientious objector hes a coward. Throw his bellybutton in jail.
There have been thousands of conscientious objectors who have served bravely in war for their country. In fact there has been two who received the medal of honor. You can read about them here:
Tom Bennett
http://www.thehistorynet.com/vn/bltombennett/index.html
Desomond Doss
http://www.medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss.htm
-
Once you take the oath to serve and protect you are honorbound to fulfill that oath. To take ten years of the benefits, then to refuse to deply now, is unconcionable. I can have respect for those who fled the draft but I can't respect a person who sucks up all the bennies then refuses to go.
Well considering the fact this guy did a tour saw some things that in his opinion weren't right and now doesn't want to participate in it I dont blame him.. In fact its borderline simian to say during his ten years of service he didn't pull his weight.. (bradley mechcanics get worked plenty even in peacetime let alone war hours...)
review his current contract make him payback any bonuses and dishonorable discharge him... with minimal jail time say 30 days..
to example him and scapegoat him for the failed campaign in Iraq is pathetic.. (you should be looking at the extended tours 2 tours and 3 tour soldiers (morale busters) when if rumsfield committed the troops in the first place we would have only 1 tour.. but who counting the military blunder factor)
I too think the chaplains comments were amusing also but considering that Bradley mechcanics are few and far between they most likely needed him for unit readiness.. then he springs the CO status on them (last minute) and they get a mouthful from their higher ups for allowing this to happen.. (crap rolls downhill)
to the comments about potatoe peeling its clear you have no time in service as said earlier E-9's dont get there for being ROAD... given the time frame he got out he most likely had a full college edu + war college just to make Sgt Major (E-9) so with respect stfu..
In response why dont you post some reup papers and get over there yourself.. that way you can see first hand what war is all about.. (deafening silence anyone)
I ship out every day my taxes are paid to fund this war.
this is copout and lily livered..
if thats the case some 200 million of my fellow americans also are in the war zone along with you.. what a laugh..
DoctorYo
-
Ill tell you what. The guy knew what he was doing...plain and simple.
As for some that think he should be forced to just pay back the money well it goes deeper than that.
How about the buddies he screwed by not showing up? Hmmmm..
How about the "buddy" that now had to take his place? Hmmmm..
How about having some intestinal fortitude to state how he felt upon return from his first stint? Unsure on when he found out he was a CO but bailing like that is pretty piss poor if you ask me.
I could care less about his convictions or his beliefs to be honest....what I do care about is he let his fellow soldiers down...no if's, and's, or but's about it.
-
Originally posted by Airhead
WTF is the matter with some of you guys?
First of all, Patrone- STFU. You have no idea what Weaselsan did for thirty years in the military, although we can assume he did much more than peel potatos or he wouldn't have made E-9. You have absolutely no right to denegrate this man's service to his country nor do you have the right to classify him a "chickenhawk" unless you have proof he refused orders into a combat zone-just like the arse you are defending did. :rolleyes:
<> Weaselsan, I appreciate what you have done for me and my country.
Now here's the way it is when you "join" the military-
They own you. They tell you where to go and what to do- and sometimes where you go and what you do is dangerous, So dangerous, in fact, they give you guns and you dress in camoflague. There is no surprise here- it's not like the Devil tricking you into a deal. You know the potential concequinces but when you take that oath defend the Constitution
Once you take the oath to serve and protect you are honorbound to fulfill that oath. To take ten years of the benefits, then to refuse to deply now, is unconcionable. I can have respect for those who fled the draft but I can't respect a person who sucks up all the bennies then refuses to go.
We have an all volunteer military and he has no excuse- the bottom line is this guy is a coward and a disgrace. I'd say Court Martial him but it's probably best to discharge him and forget the POS.
I receive a nice retirement from the Navy...I'm a multi Million dollar lottery winner...and have been informed by letter from the Soc. Sec. Admin that I am now eligible for benifits. You needn't thank me for anything, but thanks for the thought. I served in the Navy because I liked the life. I stayed in the extra time to train crews on Gearing class Destroyers as they where sold to Allied Countries.
-
Originally posted by Nuke33
I say right on dude, because as we all know, as long as there are militaries there will be war..
Militaries have nothing to do with starting wars. As long as humans remain human there will always be war. It's an ugly side of human nature.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Frankly, since God gave us all the ability to engage in Free Will, I respect his decision to change his mind.
...And change his mind he DID, once the bullets started flying.
You can't just quit the military, dude- you sign a contract and they train you, feed you, clothe you and tell you what to do until your contract is over. He's a friggin volunteer, for Christ's Sakes. He benefited when the PX ran specials on Marlboros and now he's refusing to deply- And you "respect" his decision to change his mind?
I'll tell you what- my tax money paid for his training and his ten year free ride during peacetime, and now when the spit hits the fan it's OK for this POS to beg off? OK, then pay the Government back the money WE invested in you and live the rest of your life with the stigma of being the POS you are- it's all good.
You know what's wrong with America today? It's too damn easy to quit. If life gets too tough you just quit....SOMEONE will pick up your slack. The only thing that kept this 10 year Vet from being the quitters we see panhandling on streetcorners was the military- we all rise or sink to our own levels, he has sunk to his.
The same attitude of acceptance and pity for those who quit is evidenced by the number of apparently able bodied males holding cardboard signs begging on streetcorners. Today I saw two panhandlers on the same corner, each one trying to look more pathetic than the other- the other three corners were occupied by bigger, and tougher looking, panhandlers.
So I called my Legislator to complain about the fact there were so many panhandlers at the streetcorners that they had to share them, and my Legislator said they were introducing legislation to build more streetcorners so it would no longer be a problem.
:rolleyes:
Don't quit and don't condone those who quit. Life is about responsibilites, and don't enable those who have abandoned theirs.
-
Originally posted by wombatt
No problem.
For everyone of these guys there is a hero like yourself to take there place.
When do you ship out?
My thoughts exactly, always a laugh to hear comments from those who have probably never done anything more adventurous then Boy Scouts.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
I receive a nice retirement from the Navy...I'm a multi Million dollar lottery winner...and have been informed by letter from the Soc. Sec. Admin that I am now eligible for benifits. You needn't thank me for anything, but thanks for the thought. I served in the Navy because I liked the life. I stayed in the extra time to train crews on Gearing class Destroyers as they where sold to Allied Countries.
Man I have been trying to win the lottery for years LOL.
Good for you man I mean that now you and your family are secure
and your kids can have a great education.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
My thoughts exactly, always a laugh to hear comments from those who have probably never done anything more adventurous then Boy Scouts.
...-Gixer
Well Gixer I meant to say that although I might not agree with what this guy did I can in some way understand it.
We only have this one life on earth and really how many of us here would be willing to die for some Iraqi?
Frankly I would not .
I served my country and was lucky enough to be in during peace time but I would have followed orders just the same.
But If I was in now and was told I had to go back and do a second tour in the chithole of a country I don't think I would be real happy about it would you?
I mean what do we really owe these freekin people anyways?
Have we not given enough young lives?
I guess I am saying I would not judge any man for what ever decision he makes about his own life it is simply his choice his life not mine.
If he can live whith himself then so be it.
Personaly I would have a hard time knowing my buds where over there and I was here safe and warm.
You bond with people in your platoon or company they become like family and It would be very hard to turn away from them in a time of war.
-
I think he has shamed himself and his unit by this action.
in military terms its a disgrace, but humanitarianism might argue that point.
on the other hand, its not like his country is in much danger of being overthrown....
i would have gone to the first and second world wars gladly.
but something like vietnam/iraq/bosnia i wouldnt because all i would do is kill people that wernt a threat to my family or friends.
and give them the chance to kill me...
-
Originally posted by Gixer
My thoughts exactly, always a laugh to hear comments from those who have probably never done anything more adventurous then Boy Scouts.
...-Gixer
LOL Whereas your buddy here, Wombatt, got kicked out of the service for being a drunk- by his own admission, BTW, so don't start up with that personal attack BS. ;)
And actually the people critisizing his choice to not deploy are vets, many retired- hardly boy scouts.
If you wish to coddle this copout POS then sponsor his immigration to New Zealand- Land of the Boy Scouts.
-
Originally posted by Airhead
And actually the people critisizing his choice to not deploy are vets, many retired- hardly boy scouts.
Coming from Vets is one thing but coming from those who have never served and would rather sit at home and call coward while comfortably letting someone else serve is another.
...-Gixer
-
I uncomfortably and without my choice send $520 to the United States every 2 weeks Gixer. If that man does not want to serve, fine, no benefits, and jail him for the remainder of his service. ***** should start a webpage with polls on how many times Weaselsan mentions he's a lottery winer, and if wombatt will actually blow him just because he did, lol.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Fine.... as long as he repays the US taxpayers 10 years salary.
You see when the time came to earn that pay, he claims he's unqualified,
The guy was a mechanic. I would imagine that in the last 10 years, he was working pretty hard at what he does.
No other job would expect you to hand your salary back if you left them, especially after 10 years service.
He was a non-combatant in the first place, so basically he just carried on doing the job he had been doing for the last 10 years, but in a different place.
He didnt like that place. He seen stuff that he had never quite expected, and basically he doesnt want to see them again.
Call him what you wish, but imo the guy is brave for standing up and speaking out. It would have been so much easier to just shut up and get on the flight, only to then cause problems for your fellow soldiers over there, cos you didnt want to be there in the first place. Ask any soldier, I bet they would rather have no one beside them, than only a half commited person. At least you know exactly who you ca rely on when your on your own.
And about waiting for the call-up to come before calling off sick (or claiming CO) - perfectly understandable imo, if you believe the rest of his story. Had he came right out and said it as soon as he had come back, people would have told him to sit on it for a while anyway. So he did just that - he sat on it, tried to fight the objections he was having, discovered he couldnt, and said he wanted out.
Yeah, the timing is f*cked up. But his train of thought seems perfectly reasonable to me.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Coming from Vets is one thing but coming from those who have never served and would rather sit at home and call coward while comfortably letting someone else serve is another.
...-Gixer
Gixer, I see this sentiment alot here, and frankly I don't buy it. Personal history has little to do with our opinions, and military service should not be a prerequesite for expressing an opinion about a deserter. And before anyone asks, yes, I'm a Vet, and although I gained experience from my service it didn't make me any wiser necessarily.
-
I'll vouch for Airhead not being wise.
:p
-
Originally posted by Maverick
I'll vouch for Airhead not being wise.
:p
LOL Exactly my point, Mav. :aok
-
It's a volunteer army. When my military profession became a dead end job that precluded me from being a soldier I walked into my commander's office and asked for my walking papers. The Army paid me what they owed me, and I paid the army what I owed her, and we were square. I left with a sense of gratefullness for the privledge of being allowed to serve among the warrior class.
He should've chosen a way to get out that wouldn't have thrown a wrench in the works for his unit. The manner he chose displays disrespect for his colleagues. He got out because the Army called him on his pledge to be a soldier. The Army is better without him. This is a case of extreme malingering.