Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GreenCloud on January 18, 2005, 07:41:26 PM
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ok..so we dont help at all in ww2..
..well we sell weapons..
and we sell gas to both sides
but..so what...Hitler takes over...
Could he of won in Russia?..
IF he couldnt of won in russia maybe a truce?
But so he wins all western europe.......
Would he try for USA..or just be happy killing all the jews and who ever ....over there..
woops i guess in africa too..
So..what would of been our problems now?...60 years later..
Hitler with Nukes?..hmm maybe we wouldnt be alive...
btw..patty..is a rainbow warrior
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We're still alive and we also had Stalin & co. with nukes.
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personal attack
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?
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Originally posted by Fishu
We're still alive and we also had Stalin & co. with nukes.
Yeah, I wonder what would have happened if he had them before anyone else?
Hitler with nukes would have been a disaster.
The world is pretty lucky that the US was more advanced than the other nations and was able to produce the first atomic bombs.
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1943: The Japanese, having taken various islands in the pacific from the US followed by a series of skirmishes across the pacific, negotiate to end hostilities in the ever unpopular war with the US. Having decided against attacking Pearl Harbor, the japanese are spared the massive outcry in the USA and avoid sparking the massive mobilization many (like Yamamoto) believe would be inevitable.
By 1946, neither the soviets nor germans see any profit in continuing and new borders are drawn up with Stalin ceding Poland and Hitler generously restoring former Soviet border under a new non-aggression pact.
The British defeat in North Africa coupled with the inabillity to establish a beachead in Calais during the disastrous Operation Invincible in early 45 results in an uprising in england that pushes the Churchill government out of office. Communist sympathisers gain a narrow lead and England withdraws from the fighting. Germany now controls western europe. Mussolini declares allegiance to the Reich and becomes a senior nation-state in the new German empire. French partisans continue to strike at the Nazis whenever they can, but without supplies and under intense scrutiny, that movement fails.
1947, President Dewey, Stalin and Reichschancellor Himmler meet at a summit in Reyhkavik and sign peace agreements. Hitler has retired in victory to Austria and sits back to let his trusted Himmler take the reins and deal with the lengthy process of integrating the captures into Germany.
In 1949, an accident on a research campus in Germany results in widespread sickness of mysterious origin. Many die, and thousands lose all their hair before succumbing to the strange ailment. Some scientists note that the affected area seemed to be bathed in a similar effect as found in Radium accidents, but nobody can tell how this would affect so many people. German authorities denounce the sickness as coming from 'mongrel slavs' who inhabit neighboring Poland and begin expanding their efforts at 'relocating' the slavs somewhere else where they cannot injure citizens of the Reich.
By 1950, communist sympathies in other asian countries begin to mount as word of Japanese attrocities in Manchuria begin to filter out to surrounding countries. Before the end of the year, the Soviet Union has declared war on the Japanese empire.
Over the next year, the russian bull pushes the imperial army back to the shores of China, then back across to the islands.
Rumors begin spreading about mysterious lights in the skies above North Africa, but are disregarded as folk tales. German industrial products begins picking up and many suspect that the Reich is working to begin an expansion across the hot continent.
The next 5 years are filled with lengthy fights in the jungles as the Soviets work to take the islands, but the hot weather and strange tactics of lone japanese soldiers prevent them from winning with their historically succesful swarm engagements. The world is shocked on October 2nd, 1952 when radios around the world become staticky, then the strains of patriotic german music pour out for a few minutes. News reporters check the timing and realize that the disturbance traveled around the world, and as they prepare to announce their findings, Reichschancellor Himmler announces that Germany has launched the first artificial moon.
As the Soviet/Japanese conflict rages, the rest of the world forgets about the satellite (which re-enters a month later) and confines talk about the feat to the realm of 'interesting, but not immediately relevant'. People who draw attention to the fact that the Germans can place a bomb anywhere in the world are laughed at, because after all, who would bother to spend millions of reichsmarks to place a few hundred pounds of explosive somewhere near some place interesting?
By 1955, the Soviet war approaches the home islands of Japan. It has been a costly fight, and both sides are weary. A titanic explosion is witnessed in the water near Peenemunde, a new research facility in Germany, and the next day it is announced that the Reich has created a new type of bomb, known as a 'Heisenberg Device' after the dead scientist who perished bravely during the polish disease epidemic after developing a completely new type of science. The new bomb can destroy entire cities. The world suddenly remembers the Von Braun rockets of Africa and takes an immediate interest in events.
In the face of this new threat, First Party Secretary Zhukov declares the fight against Japan as 'complete' and withdraws the fighting forces to reinforce the european borders. Japan, having stared into the mouth of the Soviet machine, declares that it no longer has interest in the resource poor lands it fought with Russia over. The manchurian atoll becomes a government free area that nobody wants to deal with and is stricken with poverty and lawlessness.
A 'Winterkampf' (literally, 'winter fight' in german) begins to shape between the Reich and the Soviet Union. Neither side is in conflict, but both see each other as an immediate threat and plan accordingly.
By 1960, England is completely socialist. Soviet money and technology stiffens the communist resolve until the monarchy is formally deposed. In a ceremony televised around the world via the Reichssatellit system of orbiting transmitters, Queen Elizabeth steps down and formally releases any further claim of the throne over the Community Of England. The country quickly adopts many laws and policies from USSR intact and becomes a member of the USSR shortly therafter.
The United States, a strong ally of the Reich, has specialized in producing agricultural products for export. With industrialization limited to automotive and some electronics, the country is taken under the wing of their ultra conservative Canadian neighbor.
Canada has broken ties with England and begun developing an industrial base as their parent country switched to communism. As the only place for many British intellectuals to leave to as they found their world collapsing around them, it boasts an impressive powerhouse of industrial might by the mid 1960s.
Ok, gotta go make dinner. Started out with a smartass answer to the original post, then suddenly, BAM, I've lost something like a half hour. Maybe THIS is what happens to UFO abductees.
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Good read Chairboy.
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Dang, hes got an imagination. Im too stoopid to think of anything like that. :)
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Wow, Chairboy, got the makings of a great book. Couldn't stop reading and wanted more. Got blindsided by your dinner bell.
Protect the rights to the story and sell it to Hollywood, bet it would make a hell of a movie..
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Very interesting Chairboy, even if it was just a joke:) Can I hear the rest before bed tomorrow? Huh? Can I???:D
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, I wonder what would have happened if he had them before anyone else?
Hitler with nukes would have been a disaster.
The world is pretty lucky that the US was more advanced than the other nations and was able to produce the first atomic bombs.
Hitler might not have used nukes if he had been able to make them. He had Sarin gas iirc and didnt use that.
Alot of scientists in the manhatten project were Germans. The world is lucky they managed to make it out of Germany or Hitler just might have gotten The Bomb.
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Alright, here's how you can break it up from involvement of America in WW2.
1.) NO involvement at all.
We sell nothing to anybody, no lend lease, no rifles, parts ammunition go to britain or Russia. It was because of all the things we gave / sold to britain and russia, they were finally able to turn the tide of the war in 1942/43.
So if we had done nothing, the war would have been over by 43 at the latest, and europe would be speaking German (except for spain and italy).
2.) Only selling equipment / parts and doing Lend Lease Programs.
What we did over there took a major strain off of the russians in their fighting. So had we not done this and only sold / given them stuff, the war would have gone on many more years, but Russia would have finally won. It would have been at the cost of many millions more lives then had died in what we had.
3.) Selling equipment and joining the war.
Well, you obviously know how this turned out.
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Well, if the U.S. hadn't "joined" WWII, there'd have been a lot of pissed off Americans, at the very least. What with the attack on Pearl Harbour and Hitler's declaration of war on the U.S. and all.
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So I got lost and forgot to mention that the Reich launches the first human into space in 1955. By 1960, the entire Reichsatelitt network is in place and each one of the house sized stations is manned by 3-5 Raumpilot (literally 'Space pilot'). Germany has been establishing itself as a world superpower, and this only quickens with the rollout of the powerful transmitters.
Over the next few years, German produced television programming is beamed out across the world as and a cultural osmosis begins to take place. Hollywood slowly fades in relevance and the real action is soon taking place in Hamburg.
By 1965, tensions between Canada and the USSR are rising again. Canada's purchase of the Alaskan wastelands in the 1950s have put them right next to the Soviet juggernaut, and the discovery of oil deposits makes matters worse. The Royal Canadian Marines forward deploy along the Bering strait while the Canadian army fortifies polar approaches.
Meanwhile, Japan launches the world's first 'Supercarrier'. At over 350 meters long, the Yamamoto nuclear carrier deploys on a tour around the world. The Mitsubishi Samurai II carrier deployed fighter receives wide attention and is classed with the Canadian Avro Falcon and the Reich's vicious Messerschmitt Me-626.
1965 also marks the first test detonation of a large scale non-chemical explosive in the USSR. The soviet version, more accurately described as a 'Sakharov Device', uses a type of Heisenberg device as a detonator and the resulting fusion explosion is bigger by a factor of two from what the Germans have produced. Because of the extensive espionage efforts, the Russians are able to skip the original atomic bomb and develop straight into a hydrogen bomb. The sudden loss of their nuclear monopoly shocks the german government into authorizing a crash study to improve their atomic ordnance. Soon, the two countries are actively trying to outdevelop each other.
As 1966 comes around, the world is spinning in more ways then one. The soviet presence on the other side of the Bering strait has the Canadian people worried. Germany, while cool to Canada, is a strong ally of Canada's biggest trading partner, the USA. An uneasy alliance exists between the two superpowers because of the US's calming influence. On the other hand, the Reich is loathe to do anything that might unleash the soviet Bear on its eastern border. As tensions rise, people on both sides grow more anxious. The german produced movies and television shows begin working to sway global opinion against the USSR.
In February, a truck filled with explosives is detonated in Red Square, killing hundreds. The Red Army goes to full alert and mobilizes as they try desperately to figure out where the attack has come from. A Canadian Falcon and an Ilyushin Beagle II, each patrolling over the Bering Strait, both end up firing on each other. Nobody knows who fired first, but both Canadian and Soviet navies gather in the Arctic and begin jockeying for position. After a few days, a Chinese group claims credit for the bombing, and worldwide attention shifts back to the chaotic Manchuria area. Both Canada and the Reich condemn the attacks and tensions ease.
The Reich announces that it will deploy a mission to the moon by the end of the 1960s. The Falkenest space station is where the mission is built, and on July 16, 1969, the three ships leave earth orbit for the moon. They land four days later. The event is carried live on the Reichsnetwork and the whole world congratulates them on their achievement.
1970 comes with the world mostly intact. The MGB (or 'Manchurian Gerechtigkeit Bewegung' as the manchurian justice movement is nicknamed by the Bundesmedia) begins launching other attacks against the nations it holds responsible for the chaotic situation in China. In the years since the Soviet/Japanese war, millions have died and the lands are filled with refugees. Anger at both the USSR and the Japanese Empire fuel a generation of terrorists who strike anywhere they can. People begin dying in both countries.
Two years later, the german presence on the moon has grown to a base of over 100 Raumpilot. The newly formed Raumwaffe works to build this base as well as others in both low and geosynchronous earth orbit. The Soviets launch their first man into space, but he dies on reentry. Two weeks later, they succesfully launch and recover another Cosmonaut and the race is on.
In 1973, the Yamamoto carrier is attacked in port by MGB. The boats that ram it kill 50 and knock out the drive shafts, disabling it for 6 months during repair. In retalliation, three japanese destroyers launch cruise missiles into a refugee city on the Amur river. Hundreds are killed in the firestorm that rages through the shantytowns, and the world is outraged. For the first time, the whole world can see the carnage via the magic of the Bundesmedia's satellite television.
The USSR, Reich, Canada, Brazil, and even the USA issue formal condemnations, but the empire of Japan brushes them aside. Tensions rise again, and fighting breaks out in Korea and Vietnam as Japanese assisted troops fight the communist governments in place.
By 1975, a Soviet station is in earth orbit. Primitive by german standards, it houses 20 Cosmonauts. By 1976, it has grown to house over 100. Weekly close passes by Raumwaffe 'utility' ships raise fears of conflict, but nothing happens.
The Winterkampf holds steady, now with three major players. Canada, the USSR, and Der Reich watch each other closely. The canadian 'Project Toronto' demonstrates an atomic explosive in upper saskatchewan, and all three now hold the buttons to weapons of a scale never seen before in combat.
By 1980, the Soviets have many stations in orbit. A crisis breaks out as the Germans are able to secure proof that two of the polar stations are equipped with nuclear warheads, and the two nations go toe to toe. After a week filled with extreme world tension and forces at maximum alert status, the two super powers are able to negotiate a standdown. In exchange for removing its warheads from orbit, the Reich promises to demilitarize its moon station and agrees to a 100 kilometer 'sovereign territory' boundary around all major stations. This stops the aggressive close flybys.
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Also, if the US wasn't in WW2, then no Jug & no Hog in AH!
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Minus moved to the other side of the pond.
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So... germans and US becomes the US as we know the history and japanese begins to resemble the israelis trying to fight off manchuri... palestinians :D
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The USSR possibly saved the west. Hitler realized that the USSR was going to attack, and did the only smart thing by preempting with an offensive of his own.
If Germany did not have an eastern front she would've been strong enough to invade Britain. And in doing so would've came into possesion of much invaluable research and researchers which would've allowed Germany to produce nuclear weapons before the USA.
Of course had there not been the Polish airforce, Germany would've most likely won the battle of britain. And then even an eastern front wouldn't have mattered.
:D
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LoL Chairboy, seriously good stuff! I once read a book(I think it was called Stars and Stripes...?). In it the british accidentally united the US during the civil war by accidentally killing some confederate soldiers and the US teams up and attacks the UK. The neat thing is I find what your writing just as interesting as that book. I have to agree with doobs, add some depth to it, get copyright and publish the bad boy! All I need is 10% of profits due to moral support:D
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Threads like this demonstrate why the wwII flight sim community is without cerebral peer. Let us take a moment and bask in our superiority. :cool:
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i love the way the british and her empire are portrayed as incompetent and weak without the US's help.
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
Would he try for USA..or just be happy killing all the jews and who ever ....over there..
woops i guess in africa too..
Hitler tries for US, his bombers had to turn back 300 km from US coast(or so) or they couldnt make it home.
If they were kamikadze, US coast could be hit.
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Originally posted by Furball
i love the way the british and her empire are portrayed as incompetent and weak without the US's help.
I figured that no matter how brave and competent they were, they'd be hard pressed to keep up the fight without the extra shipping & resources. Fact is, the British army and navy were in poor condition at the beginning of hostilities. If US assistance was limited to Lend Lease through 1941-1942 and then petered out, I'd guess the British juggernaut would be hard pressed to keep the machine going.
At that point, allying with the Soviet Union would start to make a lot of sense if the alternative is falling under the Nazi grip.
And for the record, MY country (the US) turns into a big ol' agrarian breadbasket and fades in relevancy. I figured that the USA's successes in being a world superpower owe their roots directly to the disposition of WWII. If the industrial machine had never activated, I doubt we'd be half the country we are today.
Anywho, just a fun excercise in extrapolation & fantasy.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I figured that no matter how brave and competent they were, they'd be hard pressed to keep up the fight without the extra shipping & resources. Fact is, the British army and navy were in poor condition at the beginning of hostilities. If US assistance was limited to Lend Lease through 1941-1942 and then petered out, I'd guess the British juggernaut would be hard pressed to keep the machine going.
The British still had the largest navy in the world when they went to war in 1939. My opinion is that, if they couldnt have got the resources from the US they would have gotten them from somewhere else.
The only real threat to the Britain being knocked out (or maybe more appropriately, starved out) of WWII was the U-Boat.
As Churchill said '... the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril'
As for the supplies, yes we brought a lot from America, as the Americans were sympathetic to the British cause.... and always willing to make money - it was easy, if that wasn't available im sure we could have got them from elsewhere.
And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.
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Originally posted by Furball
And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.
Oh, I always wondered why you let them take half of Poland without making any Fuzz about it.
And helping the Finns against them??.....great ally
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Anywho, just a fun excercise in extrapolation & fantasy.
Interesting read...but I think your giving the Nazi germany a twenty year head start to it's development. Economically I think a national socialist germany (even with it's newly increased resources and labour) would be facing an interesting future, much like they did immediately before the war when inflation was threating Reich economics.
Also Nazi "romanticism" post war could place immediate pressure on the remarkable developments of Reich scientists during the real war.
Originally posted by Furball
The British still had the largest navy in the world when they went to war in 1939. My opinion is that, if they couldnt have got the resources from the US they would have gotten them from somewhere else.
The only real threat to the Britain being knocked out (or maybe more appropriately, starved out) of WWII was the U-Boat.
As Churchill said '... the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril'
As for the supplies, yes we brought a lot from America, as the Americans were sympathetic to the British cause.... and always willing to make money - it was easy, if that wasn't available im sure we could have got them from elsewhere.
And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.
I think there is a general underestimation of the contribution of the commonwealth of not only troops but supplies as well.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Suave
The USSR possibly saved the west. Hitler realized that the USSR was going to attack, and did the only smart thing by preempting with an offensive of his own.
It's untrue. There were no offensive plans in USSR in 1941.
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Chairboy, very good read, thanks!
Some corrections:
1) Zhukov had no chance to become a Party leader, only as a result of "military coup".
2) Sputnik was only a result of Soviet military missile programm, in fact - a personal "hobby" of Sergey Korolev. Missile programm of such scale without nuclear weapons could be absolutely useless. BTW, Soviet side had it's own research in nuclear science and rocket technology, so Germans couldn't have monopoly for a long time. Americans were able to catch up with USSR in 10 years...
3) "Socialist" England by 1960 is a little bit too optimistic. Stalin ordered to stop "revolution export" in late-40s.
4) Deploying troops "across the Bering straight" is useless. There is no ground communication between Chukotka and mainland.
5) By 1966 there was no traffic on Red Square. There were tram rails there maybe in 1960, but they were removed soon.
I think I'll make more comments after reading your article more carefully ;_
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
1.) NO involvement at all.
We sell nothing to anybody, no lend lease, no rifles, parts ammunition go to britain or Russia. It was because of all the things we gave / sold to britain and russia, they were finally able to turn the tide of the war in 1942/43.
So if we had done nothing, the war would have been over by 43 at the latest, and europe would be speaking German (except for spain and italy).
2.) Only selling equipment / parts and doing Lend Lease Programs.
What we did over there took a major strain off of the russians in their fighting. So had we not done this and only sold / given them stuff, the war would have gone on many more years, but Russia would have finally won. It would have been at the cost of many millions more lives then had died in what we had.
3.) Selling equipment and joining the war.
Well, you obviously know how this turned out.
Look closer at American exports to USSR during WWII. No rifles ;) crappy tanks and planes that Americans couldn't fly. As for most important things, like trucks, oil refineries and telephone wire - i think USSR could by it for cash even without lend-lease. BTW lend lease prices for USSR were three times higher then for UK.
USSR could win without any foreign "aid", it only could take one more year and definetly more lives :(
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I do think the UK would have held out as well if the US had not intervened at all.
In fact, I think Russia was strong enough to defeat the Nazis on her own. They had made a helluva lot of headway before the Western Allies landed in Normandy.
At different points during the war, different countries had a defining impact on proceedings. Had the UK capitulated in 1940, there would have been nowhere for the Western Allies to launch their bombers against Germany. Also, Hitler would have secured the vast resources available in the UK, and would have had no need to garrison over a million soldiers on its Western front - men that could have made a difference in the battle with the USSR.
Next (timeline-wise) would probably come the US, with the great support given to the UK and USSR through lend-lease, and then their actual physical involvement in the war itself. Although obviously in the latter case their hand was forced by the Japanese.
Finally the USSR, who made by far the biggest human sacrifice of them all. Once the Soviet juggernaut started oiling her wheels, there was only going to be one outcome.
And in amongst it all, were the brave people from Poland, France, the Czech Republic, Hungary, etc who done everything they could to fight against the Nazis, whether it was by fleeing to the UK and joining the fight here or taking part in underground resistance movements.
No single nation effected the outcome of WWII, there were many heroes imo.
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kikazzzchairboy..nice job..
feel free to write more..it was an excellent read
I was going to say..did you write that yourself..or was that a "cut-n-paste"..but i guess you did it..wow..
thanks again chairboy..
and furball. really beleive england woudl of been doen..--I hav eread many u-boat accounts...The world is dammm lucky hilter did not listen Doerntz...MORE U BOATS!!!
..even if UK coudl get raw materials from other nations..getting them to the island was the problem
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First of all, there would have been no "truce" with Russia. It seems everyone has forgotten, Hitler's entire justification for taking Europe under his control was that he didnt have the resources to fight Russia. He may have used other excuses to the world in the beginning, but taking out Stalin's Russia was his priority. He saw Communism as the ultimate threat and was determined to stomp it out. Britain was certainly a roadblock, but Hitler never much wanted a war with them anyway. What he wanted was
1) All of mainland Europe under German control, and access to all the resources.
2) Either a treaty or some other form of controlling England to keep them from being an aggressor and/or launching pad for aggressors, requiring him to fight on 2 fronts. He was more than willing to use force, but didnt want to if he could get away with it. Luckily for Britain, Hitler decided to stop expending resources trying to conquer them, when it wasnt necessary. He switched his focus to his real objective, Communist Russia, and left the Western Front as a holding action to keep the British off the mainland. He decided he could afford the resources after all, and Britain wasnt much of a threat away from their own shores.
Russia would have done just fine without us or our Lend/Lease. Eventually. They would have done much better in the beginning if Stalin werent such a paranoid delusional. He saw conspiracies in every shadow and whisper. Most of his experienced military were executed because he saw them as a threat. So while Germany had experienced pilots and troops, the advantage of the technological advances that came from using the equipment in battle and making it better, etc., Russia had outdated equipment and poorly trained, inexperienced people. The only thing that really saved them was Mother Nature. The Russian winter gave them the time they needed to set up manufacturing centers far back from the front lines and begin mass producing tanks and planes and guns to fight the Germans. It also gave them time to collect their army, train them into some semblance of usefulness and begin pushing back. It certainly helped when the US began putting pressure on a Western Front that Hitler hadn't planned on assigning any real resources to. But given the relative size and population of Russia vs German occupied Europe, I'm not sure it would have mattered. It would have been longer, and very ugly, but I'm pretty positive Russia would have eventually kicked the snot out of them.
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Exactly SOA.
Also, another reason why there could never be a truce between the USSR and Germany;
The Nazis despised the Soviets. They hated them with as much passion as they hated the Jews. The Soviets, citizens and military alike, were nothing but scum on the bottom of SS boots.
The USSR was happy to play along with the truce signed in the build-up to WWII, but after the actions of the Germans in advancing towards the Soviet Union, the Soviets would never accept anything less than annihilation and annexation.
WWII would possibly have continued right until the Russians advanced to Berlin, or perhaps even the French coast. But there would have been only 1 victor.
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Originally posted by Glas
WWII would possibly have continued right until the Russians advanced to Berlin, or perhaps even the French coast. But there would have been only 1 victor.
Unless the Germans got the nuke, then the ruskies would have been royally screwed.
Apparently the krauts were a year or so from developing the bomb by VE day... and that is after the Norwegian + SOE raids on their heavy water plants delayed the making of the bomb.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's untrue. There were no offensive plans in USSR in 1941.
LOL
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Originally posted by Suave
LOL
Why is that funny? The Soviets had just massacred the top brass in their armed forces, and believed in the truce with Germany. Why would they have been caught with their pants down otherwise? If the Soviets were planning offensives, it would have been on their Western flank, and the Nazis would never have got further than they did.
I guess because Boroda said it, then it just has to be propaganda, eh? :rolleyes:
I realised a long time ago who were the brainwashed people in here. I didnt realise tho quite how brainwashed they were.
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Why is anybody trying to disect Chairboy's story.
It was just a story, he made it up in a right before that darn dinner bell, and now he'll probably won't write anymore.
Poor guys new Career hasn't even started before it ended .
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No, you are definately wrong about that. The US damn near supplied all of the soviet union for that time. Had it not happened, Russia would not have been able to win a war of attrition.
But the NO us involvement was based around Pearl Harbor not being attacked.
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Originally posted by doobs
Why is anybody trying to disect Chairboy's story.
It was just a story, he made it up in a right before that darn dinner bell, and now he'll probably won't write anymore.
Poor guys new Career hasn't even started before it ended .
Heh, don't worry about it. Yeah, I just busted it out in a few minutes, and if I can't take some crit, I wouldn't be much of a writer!
Actually, I'm not sure... maybe I SHOULD try to do something with it. Fix the errors (hey, I ain't no historian, and it shows) and see if I can figure out how to write something interesting.
Thanks for the feedback, guys!
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's untrue. There were no offensive plans in USSR in 1941.
lol, how about 1942-43? ;)
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Great read Chairboy!
I suggest ya'all read Philip K. Dick's "The Man in the High Castle". In it, the Axis actually wins the war. It's a pretty deep book, I didn't get it the first time I read it and didn't really enjoy it tha much, but the second time (after some years), it all clicked and I was awed.
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Really neat story, thanks, Chairboy
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I didnt have a problem with the story, it was very imaginative and well written. Definitely its an interesting pastime, to play the "what if" game and see what develops. I just think if you are going to play it, you need to keep true to the facts.
There are a million things that could have happened to prevent Pearl Harbor. Or make it have less impact than it did. To erase Hitler's obsession with Communism would require altering the man himself. Same with Stalin. Hell, remove Stalin and provide a weak and ineffective govt. for Russia, Hitler might never have tried building a super army and starting WWII. Unlikely, but arguable.
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Perk the Messerschmitt Me-626 !!!
btw,I'd love to see a "realistic" what-if scenario in a sim, like SWOTL with today's graphics and power !
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The Royal Canadian Marines?
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Originally posted by loser
The Royal Canadian Marines?
Sure! There's a canadian navy, and a canadian army. Our world doesn't have any RCM because Marines are a projecting force and Canada doesn't project power. But if it were a superpower because it was forced into that role, it'd be logical that the RCM would come into existance.
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[double post]
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The 'what if' game scenario has been done for the WWI : Iron storm. It's an FPS placed in 1960, WWI has never finished, technology and geopolitics have evolved differently that we now today.
A nice game, not that great but with good atmosphere.
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Originally posted by Suave
The USSR possibly saved the west. Hitler realized that the USSR was going to attack, and did the only smart thing by preempting with an offensive of his own.
If Germany did not have an eastern front she would've been strong enough to invade Britain. And in doing so would've came into possesion of much invaluable research and researchers which would've allowed Germany to produce nuclear weapons before the USA.
Of course had there not been the Polish airforce, Germany would've most likely won the battle of britain. And then even an eastern front wouldn't have mattered.
:D
When Germany started bombing London in retaliation for the RAF bombing of Berlin, they lost the foothold of Operation Sealion. Ha they continued for a little longer on the RAF fighters, they "might" have done it.
Now, the Polish Airforce in the RAF saved the piss out of Britain. How are they repaid? They are not invited to the Victory Parade in London in 1946.
Karaya
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Nice work, Chairboy.
If I can add my contribution, Italy would not unite with 3rd Reich empire, the relation between the 2 dictators were good and on parity.
I'll see it more like this:
"After the humiliating defeat of the paper made Italian Army in Greece and North Afrika, and the saving help of Hitler's armies, Mussolini finally decided to get rid of the industrial families and the corrupted HQ, nationalized the military industries, and revised the chain of command putting capable people in the right place, building a credible army for his colonial dream.
The geman divisions reentered in Germany's area of interest, and the newly founded Italian Army restarted the conquer of Afrika, taking advantage of the non existant others colonial powers.
After 50 years of colonial wars, in wich local rebels were secretely armed and trained by the Canadians, the Mediterranean was entirely in Italians hands, like a great part of central Afrika.
In South Afrika, A puppet state of South Afrika, under the control of Canada, mantained a fierce resistence and the availability of the resources of the southern tip of the continent by the Canadian Superpower."
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look closer at American exports to USSR during WWII. No rifles ;) crappy tanks and planes that Americans couldn't fly. As for most important things, like trucks, oil refineries and telephone wire - i think USSR could by it for cash even without lend-lease. BTW lend lease prices for USSR were three times higher then for UK.
USSR could win without any foreign "aid", it only could take one more year and definetly more lives :(
BS CALLL!!!
Lend lease was free. We didn't charge for the stuff, but did expect it to be returned after the war. As it was, we mostly abandoned it in place.
Prior to lend-lease, the Soviet Union was not at war. Lend-lease was put in place in 1940. If the Soviets bought anything prior to the 1941 invasion, they paid for it.
shubie
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Originally posted by rshubert
Lend lease was free.
shubie
You better start listen, Boroda. The word "lend" have changed its meaning and so has the word "lease".
So next time you "lend" something from your neighbour, keep it, its actully a gift.
And when your car-dealer talks about a "lease" , He is actully giving the car to you, without pay!
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Originally posted by patrone
You better start liste, Boroda. The word "lend" have changed its meaning and so has the word "lease".
So next time you "lend" something from your neighbour, keep it, its actully a gift.
And when your car-dealer talks about a "lease" , He is actully giving the car to you, without pay!
Interesting use of selective quotation.
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I understand what lend-lease was.
The problem is that the amount of lend-lease "aid" to UK was 3 times bigger then to USSR, final prices for USSR were much higher, and most of UK debt was remitted. That's why we still pay lend-lease debt.
Anyone who says that "USSR couldn't win without American aid" is mistaken.
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Originally posted by patrone
You better start listen, Boroda. The word "lend" have changed its meaning and so has the word "lease".
So next time you "lend" something from your neighbour, keep it, its actully a gift.
And when your car-dealer talks about a "lease" , He is actully giving the car to you, without pay!
Well, I did a bit of research. Turns out that the Soviet Union received more than $11 billion (in 1945 dollars) in lend lease aid, but did not pay back any money until 1972. They then made an agreement to pay back $722 million (in 1972 dollars) in installments up to 1991.
So yes, you were expected to pay it back or return the goods. But no, you didn't pay back what you owed. My bad. You paid over 7% of the total value of the goods received.
Britain received more that $30 billion in lend lease aid, by the way.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Well, I did a bit of research. Turns out that the Soviet Union received more than $11 billion (in 1945 dollars) in lend lease aid, but did not pay back any money until 1972. They then made an agreement to pay back $722 million (in 1972 dollars) in installments up to 1991.
$722M was what was left unpaid for 1972 IIRC. There were lots of negotiations about this debt, mostly because the prices for USSR were maybe 2 or 3 times bigger then for the same goods shipped to UK.
Originally posted by rshubert
So yes, you were expected to pay it back or return the goods. But no, you didn't pay back what you owed. My bad. You paid over 7% of the total value of the goods received.
Britain received more that $30 billion in lend lease aid, by the way.
And how much of that $30 billion UK actually paid?
Don't you understand that lend-lease meant that we didn't have to pay for the equipment lost in combat or returned after hostilities ceased?
For Soviet people it was a spit in the face when we had to return equipment completely working, with all spare parts and stuff, and Americans scrapped it right in Soviet ports before loading it on the ships...
I still have my Grandfather's pliers from lend-leased Willie's Jeep. I guess the car was lost in a war, otherwise this pliers were required when it was given back to Americans...
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Hey now, hey now...
Guys, do you mind if we shelve this lend/lease conversation and get back to talking about how great I am?
Thanks!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Hey now, hey now...
Guys, do you mind if we shelve this lend/lease conversation and get back to talking about how great I am?
Thanks!
LMAO :aok
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I loved the story chairboy. Breat beleivable fiction.
I think the UK is as much capable (in the story) of becoming a socialist/communist state as canada is at becoming a superpower. All it takes is a shift in the mob.....the mob IS rome....ect.