Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on January 18, 2005, 09:59:29 PM
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Ok question, I have been playing pirates and you can not sail into the wind directly but you can at at ange sail into it.
So is this because the sail is acting like a wing and producing lift to push the boat through the wind? If not how does it work?
Great game btw, highly recomend it.
I only wish you could be more evil, you know kidnapping sacking towns and burning them etc.
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The most logical is when the wind pushes on your back, and you just let the sails out to catch it. Called a 'run'.
When it's pushing on your side (even from the front), you pull the sails in tight to your boat so it's like the wind is hitting a wall. The keel sticking out the bottom of your boat stops you from getting pushed in the direction of the wind. But it's a huge force, and has to do something. So since the front of the boat is smaller than the back, the boat moves forward. Called a reach or a beam reach, and it's the fastest point of sailing.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Ok question, I have been playing pirates and you can not sail into the wind directly but you can at at ange sail into it.
So is this because the sail is acting like a wing and producing lift to push the boat through the wind? If not how does it work?
Great game btw, highly recomend it.
I only wish you could be more evil, you know kidnapping sacking towns and burning them etc.
You can attack the towns. Your crew becomes infantry and you have to fight the towns garrison outside the town. You dont get to torch the town though.
It is a great game, I have to wait for a patch cuz it keeps crashing on me.
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Nash, WRONG! WRONG WRONG WRONG! Actually, mostly wrong.
Ok, you have an airplane wing. Because the wind takes longer to get around the top, you get high pressure on the bottom. This creates lift.
But Sails aren't solid wings. It's like they are the top edge only. Now the wind should be hitting the sail just so it's parallel to the angle the front edge of the sail would make. This redirects the wind around the sail quickly. This creates lift much like an airplane wing. However, this lift isn't perpindicular to the sail, it's pointing forward a little.
Now we talk about simple vectors. If you're headed down wind, you only have two vectors. One forward vector which is the result of the wind pushing you. One aft vector which is a small amount of drag.
Now, if you rotate the sail around so the sail's force vector is pointing forward, the boat wants to move in this direction. So this is when we stick in a keel. This keel counteracts the lateral force from the sail. So you have a bunch of vectors.
Fsail is the force that the sail is pushing on the boat with. You can break this up into components of vertical and horizontal companents #1 and #3.
(Assuming bow of boat is straight up)
1.) Force from the sail to the left.
2.) Force from the Keel to the right.
3.) Force from the sail straight up.
4.) Force from the boat dragging straight down.
(http://home.comcast.net/~lasersailor184/boat.jpg)
Now, #1 and #2 perfectly (should) counteract each other. So the boat moves forward with a little bit of drag.
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Hmm... that all basically sounds like a confusing way of saying what I said.
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LOL well thanks for the semi Clerification, so it is somewhat like lift generated by a wing?
I know you can take a town with troops. But you cant pillage rape and murder then burn it to the ground. It is a pirate game right hehe?
I love getting a Frigate, 32 guns semi fast........ fun stuff.
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I'm not sure about all that, but what I do know is the sail shape also determines direction.
Course sheets will definitely prevent you from sailing upwind, so if you have a standard 4-rigger or barque, you have to beat to the wind, meaning setting a course as closte to your intended direction, then tack over to the alternate direction.
With the Jib, stasail, mainsail, etc, yuou can sail closer to the wind w/o need for too much tacking exercises. Seems like a fun game...
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Yes, the sails are like wings. fore-and-aft sails are easier to set up in order to generate forward lift when going upwind than square rigged sails, which are designed to act more like "reverse airbrakes" instead of wings.
In any case, when most of the wind force is pushing you sideways , the keel is there to diminish sideways drift or "leeway", but the drift is always there and you have to account for it (i.e, you dont really end up where you point your bows, think crosswind landing).
Another interesting point is that running directly before the wing tends to be a bad idea, as your aft sails will cut the wind from reaching the fore ones. So it's better to have the wind coming from your 5 or 7 o'clock. If the wind goes straight into your desired course, you end up tacking too.
I'll stop now my parroted 'lubber explanations about sailing, but this is fun to play with:
http://home.wxs.nl/~pdavis/
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Modern day boats sail a little bit closer then 45degrees off of the wind. The closer you get, the slower you will go up to a point where you aren't getting anywhere.
Back then, they could sail up to 75-70 degrees off the wind. In fact, there was once a viking ship that was trying to escape. He sailed at 60 degrees off of the wind and got away. When they later caught him, they tried and executed him for Witchcraft, citing that particular incident.
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Lasersailor, thank you for my new wallpaper! :D
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I think you got the answer you were looking for by the above posters Gto, and some beautiful artwork by lazersailor :D...
So no need for me to basicly repeat what has been said.
bye bye
err..
harr!!
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yeah, i've spent the last 2-3 weeks playing it... had to buy it since i had the original way back when and loved it.
you can sack towns... 2 ways... 1. land a bit away and march in.. 2. bombard the town while at sea (use space bar) until it's sufficiently pissed off to allow you the attack option when you sail into the harbor. also sometimes when yuo successfully sack a town it may allow you to change it's nationality... doesn't have to be your own.
I love finding and upgrading one of the brig-types... they own frigates...
also, the later you hold off your famous pirate hunting (not their buried treasures)... the more loot you'll get from them when you actually do defeat them.
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Radich is a Croatian name... How come some Norweigian ship nas it? Whats the story behind the namesake?
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Ship is named after a norwegian with that name that donated money to a foundation back in 1884. It was buildt as a training ship in 1935.
The ship got famous world wide after "starring" in the move "Windjammer"
http://www.radich.no/eng/pgs/historikk.html
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
LOL well thanks for the semi Clerification, so it is somewhat like lift generated by a wing?
I know you can take a town with troops. But you cant pillage rape and murder then burn it to the ground. It is a pirate game right hehe?
I love getting a Frigate, 32 guns semi fast........ fun stuff.
It is EXACTLY like lift generated by a wing. A sail is nothing more than a horizontal wing.
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Originally posted by rshubert
It is EXACTLY like lift generated by a wing. A sail is nothing more than a horizontal wing.
Aaaaah.. I think you mean VERTICAL wing. :D
I remember seeing a picture of a Catmaran that had a glider wing in the vertical with the spar acting as a mast. It was a still picture so I don't know how well it worked.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Nilsen, in the dictionary under "redundant" it says "see 'redundant'". ;)
hehe, my mind is abit messed up these days
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It is a really great game, if you are at all interested in Pirates go for it.
Is there a Ship of the line type fighting game out there that is any good?
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I'm keeping an eye on this:
http://www.burningsea.com/index.php
I played briefly Age of Sail II, got somewhat bored soon.
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Originally posted by Otto
Aaaaah.. I think you mean VERTICAL wing. :D
I remember seeing a picture of a Catmaran that had a glider wing in the vertical with the spar acting as a mast. It was a still picture so I don't know how well it worked.
you're right, vertical.
i also mix up east and west.
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I love finding and upgrading one of the brig-types... they own frigates...
Try a royal sloop sometime. Fully upgraded it has 20 guns, 175 crew. Can out maneuver anything that outguns it, and can't really be hurt by anything more manueverable. Having only 20 guns is not a bad thing at all either, when you find a gunner's mate your reload speed is so fast that you can put out more firepower than a 40 gun large frigate.
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So in the movie the Master and Comander, the French ship was a frigate, (an American Constition class), what was the Suprise?
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Heh I used to play the original Pirates! a lot.
The most enjoyable thing was to take a pinnacle, attack a galleon and swordfight your way into the victory.
Nothing more satisfying than starting from a pinnacle and go straight to the galleon just by fencing skills. :D
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
So in the movie the Master and Comander, the French ship was a frigate, (an American Constition class), what was the Suprise?
A frigate too, but older and smaller. In the late 1700s-early 1800's everyone started building 40'something guns heavy frigates that outclassed the 28s and 32s
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Saif
You could still do that I think, it is a bit harder cause if your crew is out numbered you have very limited time to win the sword fight.
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I had a Flag Galleon with all upgrades, 2 broadsides of grapeshot and the enemy crew was ready to surrender. Or....2 broadsides of round shot and the enemy crew is visiting Davey Jones :D
Wish they would hurry up with that patch :(
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Back then, they could sail up to 75-70 degrees off the wind. In fact, there was once a viking ship that was trying to escape. He sailed at 60 degrees off of the wind and got away. When they later caught him, they tried and executed him for Witchcraft, citing that particular incident.
:lol vikings were around 1000 AD, these boats were 700+ years later...
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No, it's not exactly like a wing. Wings are solid. Wings generate lift perpindicular to the bottom plane of the wing. Sail's generate lift a little forward of perpindicular.
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I've been sailing around in a large frigate and it's usually the ticket I reckon, but a Brig or Royal sloop are handy too
Tronsky
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Tronski
How many guns does a large Frigate have?
They need an evil path were you can kindap the evil barons guys family and trade them for yours!
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They have 40 guns Gto, copper plating and cotton sails are a must though, triple hammocks are handy, upping crew capacity to 375.
I think it would be hard to implement, but a multiplayer mode would be a blast.
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I have played it to the end once and am working on my second go.
Do the ports that have upgrades stay the same or is it random?
When you bombard a city do they lose troops?
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Originally posted by pugg666
I think it would be hard to implement, but a multiplayer mode would be a blast.
pirates of the burning sea is what your after....
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If it ever comes out.
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don't forget the KEEL, centerboard, or what it may be on the boat of choice. If you were to lift it clear of the water the boat would be "pushed" side ways. the drag on the keel acts like a wing and produces forward movement.
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No!
The keel only works to counteract the force from the sail in lateral movement. If you have ever studied vectors you would easily get it in my diagram.
Now we can get complicated with it. If the boat is just existing by itself, it would roll over. The wind is pushing on the sail in one clockwise direction, and the boat wants to drift that direction. So the water is pushing on the keel in the same clockwise direction.
So without anything else, the boat would roll over. So what you do is put wait towards the side where the wind is hitting. This (if you're fat enough) will counteract both the torque of the sail and of the keel.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
So the water is pushing on the keel in the same clockwise direction.
No water, no keel...
(http://hometown.aol.com/lakemeadsailing/images/LandSailing_Nov_2000.jpg)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
No water, no keel...
Wheels allow for counterbalancing. Notice how they are widely spaced.
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They also perform the function of a keel for limiting sideslip. I was just posting a photo of something I used to do as a kid.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, it's not exactly like a wing. Wings are solid. Wings generate lift perpindicular to the bottom plane of the wing. Sail's generate lift a little forward of perpindicular.
We could argue this all day, but...see "ultralight", or "hangglider". Same structure, same thing, just horizontal instead of vertical.
Here's a link that explains it with words and stuff:
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/learningtosail/index.cfm?articleID=matthe0700&coll_cat=Theory&Coll_name=Basic%20Sailing%20Theory (http://www.sailnet.com/collections/learningtosail/index.cfm?articleID=matthe0700&coll_cat=Theory&Coll_name=Basic%20Sailing%20Theory)
shubie
lightning sailor, by the way...lasers are for noobs.
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(http://lacaustralia.com/images/wing_0543_400x300.jpg)
a rigid wing on an Aussie cat.
Dennis Conner defended the America's Cup against the Kiwi deed of gift boat in San Diego with the Stars and Stripes catamaran, and it had a rigid wing sail built by Burt Rutan.
It wasn't used in competition as I recall.
Sails are wings.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
So what you do is put wait towards the side where the wind is hitting. This (if you're fat enough) will counteract both the torque of the sail and of the keel.
Which is why a lot of top-end racing yachts have a tilting keel: they can angle the keel out to windward to increase the effect.
With regards to the no-go zone to windward most modern (sloop-rigged) yachts can make around 35 degrees, and some of the ultra-modern racers like the maxis can make under 25 degrees.
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Yes, but the closer you go to the wind, the slower you go. No amount of technology besides a motor can change this simple fact.
(http://home.comcast.net/~lasersailor184/boat2.jpg)
Btw, the wheels work to counteract the lateral force from the sail.
My diagram is the best thing to describe how sailing works. You will not find anything better, only something that could possible match it.
Also, those new sails work by turning apparent wind into real wind.
As a further addendum, I think that Lightnings are glorified pieces of ****. There are boats out there that are simpler, yet more complicated at the same time, not to mention faster. I prefer the Laser 2.
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Blasphemer. Heretic. You will burn. BURRRRRRRRRRRN. Lightnings are the most perfect sailboat ever created. Ask the man who owns one, me for example. 19 feet 6 inches, 700 pounds, and more sail than is safe. What more could you want?
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Originally posted by rshubert
What more could you want?
Good question. It's been some years since I was into sailing, but I was always partial to Tanzers. What's it like today? If you could buy a boat 50' feet or less, and money wasn't a factor, what would it be?
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What more could I want? The boat to be responsive. For it to actually be fast for the sail area. Round bottom. The seats and cabinets to be removed. A decent place to store the spinnaker...
I could go on, but I would hate to ruin your thoughts of the Lightning.
Btw, I grew up racing them.
I'd buy a 49'er. Without hesitation.