Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Mystic2 on January 19, 2005, 08:22:06 PM
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I want to upgrade my vid card. I have an ATI Radeon 9200 128 meg. DDR. I am wanting to upgrade to either a Rosewill ATI 9600XT 256 megDDR, or Infotek 9600 Pro 256 DDR. Would either one of these be worth the trouble? I just need some advice.. thanx :aok
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Heres the chart at Toms Hardware. The XT has a slightly faster processor and memory speed, but thats probably not going to make a noticeable difference. Brand doesnt really seem to matter much, except that the general consensus is not to trust the OEM drivers and to go with the ATI catalyst drivers from their website or the Omega drivers instead.
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/vga_charts-02.html
I have no personal recommendation either way, as I dont use ATI cards. Hope this helps!
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check into sapphire ati cards....my 9600xt cost $135 and runs everything like buttah(even doom 3)....just wish it had 4 more pipelines like 9800pro
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The 9600XT will stomp the 9200. The 9200 is the old 8500, renamed, only slower! The 9600XT's real performance lies in the ultra conservative clocks ATI used. The core overclocks very well.
The 9600XT also supports later shader versions and runs them very well. If your CPU is in the 2Ghz range, this is a good card for it. Faster CPU's would benefit from a faster card, slower CPU;s would not be able to push the card to its limits.
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ya my core was at around 600mhz mem at 526mhz...it doesn't overclock very well, but it dont do any good with 4 pipelines
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definately ati 9800 pro
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Consider an nvidia 6600, 6600gt, or 6800. They're a whole generation ahead and if you run the newest games like HL2, doom3, etc. you'll see the difference even if you're using a slower cpu.
If all you're playing is AH and you're on a tight budget, like Skuzzy said a 9600XT would be great.
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I am running a Radeon 9600XT right now. Works great with AH2 (when I played it) and with alot of other games. Just keep your CPU speed up and you should be a very happy customer. The price I believe is around 150 maybe even lower?? So definitely a good buy.
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eagl, just FYI, but NVidia has been having a lot of problems reported with the 6600 cards. It may have been a bad run of silicon, but I would recommend staying away from the 6600's for right now until it is all sorted out.
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Good info skuzzy, thx. The only problem I'd heard was some manufacturer forgot to solder on a capacitor so buyers were finding an extra capacitor in the bag when they got the card home, but that was supposedly limited to one production run with one manufacturer. But if the rest of the 6600s are porked, then yea staying away is a good call.
FWIW I wouldn't personally buy a 6600 because it's either a defective 6800 that was good enough to pass as a 6600, or a 6800 deliberately crippled to make a 6800. I figure why buy crippled stuff when saving pennies for a bit longer lets you buy the real thing. That's why I have a 6800GT because it's the full-up card with just a lower clock speed than the 6800 ultra. But maybe I'm just weird that way.
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6800 here get it if you got the $
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Or, if you have a PCI-E bus, you might want to wait for the ATI X800XL. List price under $300 ($299.00), and as fast (faster in some cases, slower in some too) as the 6800GT.
A shame they are not making it for the AGP bus, yet.
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There's actually more of a diff. between the 6600 and the 6800 than just a slower chip. The 6800's architecture is vastly more complex than the 6600. Thats why the new Gigabyte SLI card with the dual VPUs used 6600s. The use of dual 6800 processors would have made the card so complex as to be unworkable. IIRC, the 6600 has half the pipes of a 6800. 16 vs 8 in the PCIe version.
The ATI X800 series cards are always going to be a little faster than the 6800's under hard usage. Because of ATI's optimization routines in the X800 series cards, they fudge the Trilinear optimizations for a halfway "Brilinear" mode, and then outright lie about it in their packaging and advertising. Independent testing has already proven it, they just have to admit it. Doesnt necessarily make it BAD, just makes it something different than what they claim. Their dishonesty is a big reason I dont use their stuff. Not that alone, since most businesses fudge words or numbers. But thats a big one.
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Star, you missed a good event a few months ago then. ATI had a full blown engineering discussion on the Internet about how they do what they do and why. ATI hosted it with a couple of engineers.
After all was said and done, everyone pretty much agreed what they are doing is actually pretty slick.
NVidia also does tri-linear optimizations as well. They were the first to do the bri-linear thing. ATI does it in a different manner.
The X800's are not always going to be faster. The 6800GT is better under load than an X800Pro, for example.
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I never said what they are doing isnt a neat operation, matter of fact I think they should offer it as a step in between bilinear and trilinear, or as an optional series of cards for the value concious. What I object to is the fact that in the packaging they clearly state they use "true Trilinear optimizations" and when they ask people to compare their product to comparable Nvidia stuff, they tell you to turn OFF Nvidia's TO, basically claiming it isnt what it says it is. My issue isnt with their technology, which I think has its place. My issue is with their honesty about it. They make snide remarks about the other guy's cards, when they are the ones doing exactly what they accused them of doing.
Plus I just think Nvidia sounds cooler. :)
You are right, the 6800 SLI cards ARE better under a heavy load, especially at high resolutions. I was looking at data from the 6800 Ultra, not the 6800 U SLI or the 6800 GT SLI. So many versions of these new PCIe cards, makes my head spin.
Btw, for anyone who is interested in reading up on the tech, this is a pretty good article at Toms Hardware on the subject.
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040603/index.html
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i read a 6600gt review over a digit-life.com and with the 128bit memory it did poorly in most tests with AA enabled , the 9800pro, with it's 256 bit memory , held its own with AA enabled in most tests , and in quite a few beat it by a good margin. both where 128mb cards. now if Anti Aliasing isnt a concern for you, the 6600gt runs good, able to beat the 9800 pro at most all games at all resolutions without AA.
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Uhmm,..Star, not to be a nit, but "True Trilinear Optimizations" is as about as accurate a description as you can get for what they are doing.
And it is significantly better than what NVidia is doing with thier version of trilinear, which is disabled by default. Unless you enable it, all NVidia cards do not do trilinear at all. They stopped running true trilinear with the FX5xxx cards as the performance was abysmal for them.
They did not allow trilinear to be enabled untkil the FX6xxx cards came out and then they made it optional.
There really is no difference between the two companies. They are both looking for an edge. NVidia hides what they do. ATI was more than happy to discuss what they were doing. Proud of it as a matter of fact.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but it sounds a bit slanted. Nothing personal, but you might want to read more about this in other various forums. Your basis for anger towards ATI is rather unfounded.
Oh, and you do know ATI made a switch available to disable those optimizations?
Iti s a highly competitive business. Both companies stick thier fingers in the mud from time to time. They both have really good product today.
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Do you think I would see some increase in frames with a new GPU...
Currently using old crusty 9500 pro with a 2400 XP (2000 mhz)
now granted 9500 pro isn't a bad card runs HL2 fine and Total War etc...
But when moving mud under AH2 or hoarde the thing bogs down..
Would a new card help out.. Toms Hardware always has a fast rig pushing his GPU reviews so Im confused as if i would be CPU limited with only 2000mhz pushing say a 6600 GT agp....
On top of that Im getting CTD's in AH2 with the 9500 pro but can not narrow it down as what is the problem...
Tried Vid drivers.. no sound.. new sound drivers.. (could saitek software be a problem.. got a x45 ??) reinstall? its not heat.. its not power supply.. its not Drivers (omega, cats ive tired them all....)
I'm stumped I can fix everbody's other computers but my own doesn't work the Irony...
CTD's happen when i use the normal snap view.. no application log or nothing just CTD.... at random... have reviewed boards and no luck yet..
Thanks in advance..
DoctorYo
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looks at sapphire 9600xt card....it definatly helped my 2gig system in a big way and cost $135 on newegg. keep in mind that my 2gig cpu is athlon 3000+ 64bit so your improvement won't be as drastic....my old card was also 9200se...so anything is better
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Uhmm,..Star, not to be a nit, but "True Trilinear Optimizations" is as about as accurate a description as you can get for what they are doing.
And it is significantly better than what NVidia is doing with thier version of trilinear, which is disabled by default. Unless you enable it, all NVidia cards do not do trilinear at all. They stopped running true trilinear with the FX5xxx cards as the performance was abysmal for them.
They did not allow trilinear to be enabled untkil the FX6xxx cards came out and then they made it optional.
There really is no difference between the two companies. They are both looking for an edge. NVidia hides what they do. ATI was more than happy to discuss what they were doing. Proud of it as a matter of fact.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but it sounds a bit slanted. Nothing personal, but you might want to read more about this in other various forums. Your basis for anger towards ATI is rather unfounded.
Oh, and you do know ATI made a switch available to disable those optimizations?
Iti s a highly competitive business. Both companies stick thier fingers in the mud from time to time. They both have really good product today.
I'm not "angry" at ATI. They havent done a thing to me. As a matter of fact, the 5xxx series Nvidia cards USE the Brilinear filtering, and the 6xxx series cards use it by default. But you can still turn true Trilinear Filtering on. Even on my FX5900. Nvidia doesnt advertise the use of Brilinear but they dont hide it either. ATI only bothered to try sounding proud of it after they got busted lol. They set theirs up so in benchmarks it shows as true trilinear but in games it uses the brilinear. I've read 3 different articles from 3 different authors on the issue. None of them thinks its bad tech, and neither do I. Obviously if they are both using it, it works. My only issue was that ATI tried so hard to hide it, and then came out using the "best defense is a good offense" strategy. Here's a quote from ID Software on the issue, and the article author's comment after.
This is indeed a "cheat" that both major vendors now do. Instead of always sampling the two adjacent mip map levels and doing a full blend between them, they have plateaus where only a single mip level is sampled, reducing the average samples from 8 to about 6.
It is actually a pretty sensible performance enhancement, with minimal visual issues. However, having drivers analyze mip map uploads to hide the cheat is an unfortunate consequence.
The colored mip map option in Q3 should have absolutely zero performance impact in the absence of performance options like this.
John Carmack
This makes it clear that the performance in the Q3 engine with and without colored mipmaps should be absolutely identical. Tests with NVIDIA's 6800 confirm this. The Radeon X800, however, still sacrifices performance.
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ATI never tried to hide it Star, as soon as someone asked, they immediately told everyone how it all worked. They also stated, at the same time, the next driver would have the option to disable it, and the driver did.
NVidia did hide the bri-linear when they introduced it in the 5xxx series. They even denied it after they were caught. They only acknowledged it after the 6xxx series came out, a full one year later and only then did they put in an option to use full trilinear.
And JC is very much pro-NVidia, so never expect him to say anything nice about ATI, but he is addressing mipmaps specifically.
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Both ATI and nVidia have been 'guilty' of hiding certain aspects of how cards 'work'.
Both are also guilty of producing drivers that are targetted at benchmarking programs.
In all honesty though there is so little between the two companies top end cards it usually comes down to a matter of taste or convenience.
I used to have an ATI9800PRO, on upgrading, for me it was better to get a BFG6800GT than get an ATI x800 and flash a $400 vid card to get the extra pipes open.
Only thing I will say -
ATI is now claiming the highest score in 3DMark even though they were using a highly overclocked liquid nitrogen cooled x800PE (well thats a readily available combo then).
Previously it was a pair of PCI-E 6800GT Ultras, expensive but at least they were stock available items. Hoping that someone does the same to the dual 6800's just to annoy ATI :)
Hmm nearly $900 for an 800PE if you can find one...no thanks.
Interested to see what ATI's different approach to SLI is considering they are 'claiming' it's superior.
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doc yo , is it a built by ati 9500 pro , i know alot of those cards could be soft modded to a 9700pro , slapshot has the same card and it modded to a 9700pro without issue . just something to look into , btw a 9600 pro xt isnt going to be too much of an upgrade imho . a 6600gt would make a better choice
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edit : as far as being cpu limited , with a 9500 pro , you probably are close to cpu limit , i had a xp3200+ , and upgraded to a amd 64 3400, i notice a big FR difference with the same 9800 pro, so even at 2400mhz i was cpu limited as far as maxing out a 9800 pro, now if you decide to go with a 6600gt , i think your cpu will be the bottle neck, if you can softmod that card i would say that would be a good gpu cpu combo , btw this is my opinion ,just goin from my experience...
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I have to admit, before I started flying AH again .................. call it what, a little over a year ago ............... I wasnt paying much attention to the technical gaming world for awhile. For a 2 year stretch in there, I pretty much had tuned out the battles at the edge of anything, so its very possible I have a skewed vision of what is what. I disliked ATI years ago, being a die-hard Voodoo fan. Anyway, I digress. All I know is what is happening right now. Its all out in the open and I guess it doesnt matter who did what before. I still prefer Nvidia. Hell, even if they fall behind, I'll probably root for whoever is bucking ATI. :) Its just my stubborn nature mixed with a little of the "my team is better than your team" thing.
One nice little tidbit I did run across at the NV News forum was a rundown on the Performance to Quality settings and how much of what engages which optimizations and when Bilinear is on, when Brilinear is on, and when Trilinear is on. Might be useful for someone.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31535
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It was my understanding that the 9500 (plain) could be softmodded by Omega drivers
The 9500 pro (ati) already has the pipes opened but is at a lesser clock speed than the 9700 Pro.. (i believe all the pro designations are ATI cards may be wrong)
But I appreciate the advice on the CPU.. Everything i read on the new a64's is that their floating point is in a class by itself.. (I may have to bite the bullet..)
getting cheaper by the day.. 754 sockets are dropping like flys (yeah no upgrade path on the 754's) I'll get a 939 if possible....
thanks for the info....
DoctorYo
PS: Skuzzy any tips on stopping the ctd's tried drivers, sound, etc.. will reinstall next. any tips ?
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doctor yo , you are correct it is the non pro , never having the card i was unaware that the pro had all 8 pipes open , is see the main difference is clock speeds and the 128bit memory vs the 9700pro's 256 bit memory bus . as far as ctd's im sure youve done the sound acelleration down a notch , you might want to check ur irq's to make sure that your not sharing major components , as far as the 754 boards , thats what i run , upgrade path will be limited but they are goin to produce to atleast the end of 05 , and i change boards and cpu's often so its a non issue . if you look at 939 vs 754 there is a difference in performance , on avg about 5 to 6 fps . single channel vs dual ch , in apps it is pretty even , 3dmarks are better , by 2 or 3 % it not a huge gap , but if money is not a huge issue 939 is the way to go
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do you have fast writes enabled?? , also ive read where turning down hardware accel on the gpu helped peoples 9700pro a great deal , it should be on the troublshooting tab in your card settings window , GL
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I just purchased a ATI X800 Pro Vid Card and it took care of all my problems running AH. I was having all kinds of errors with my NVidia Card so when I made this change I now get great
FPS is now anywhere from 85 to 145 and I have Vert Sync turned on.
I just love this card....It Rocks
:D