Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Raider179 on January 21, 2005, 12:46:37 PM
-
Anyone else get the feeling china is waiting for the U.S. to get tired of fighting in Iraq and is gonna make a move on Taiwan?
-
Hmm that would be the start of a real world war 3, is China that Dumb?
Given time they will get it back economicaly.
-
For that matter... Is the U.S. that dumb?
In a war between China and the U.S. I don't think there will be a winner.
-
Originally posted by Sandman
For that matter... Is the U.S. that dumb?
In a war between China and the U.S. I don't think there will be a winner.
Are you kidding? China can't even take Taiwan. We would decimate China and they couldn't touch us.
-
You do realize that China has the largest army on the planet?
-
yeah, and they can't move that army anywhere in the world.
We would decimate them. They have ZERO ability to project a force anywhere.
They could not touch the US, and we could obliterate them.
-
So they're not about to invade the U.S.
That hardly means that we could simply waltz through China as if it were Iraq.
There's also that nuke thing.
-
Originally posted by Sandman
So they're not about to invade the U.S.
That hardly means that we could simply waltz through China as if it were Iraq.
There's also that nuke thing.
we could destroy China with conventional forces, China could not begin to touch the US.
If the nuclear option is on the table, then China loses again.
-
im quite certain that they could touch at least a few hundred thousand of us before we both turned the oceans to glass and extinguished all life on earth nuke. (pun intended)
we can have as many super expensive techno explodey toys as our country can produce and it still wouldnt change the fact that we have a meager 5% of the worlds population.
perhaps if we sent our guys in one at a time it might make it last longer?
that said, i dont think that china will, or that we would actually go to war with them if they did.
no oil there.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
yeah, and they can't move that army anywhere in the world.
We would decimate them. They have ZERO ability to project a force anywhere.
They could not touch the US, and we could obliterate them.
um. wed have to mobilize our already paper thin military and take it to them yes?
pretty sure they'd find a way to touch us.
they are nuclear as well.
and lets not forget a little conventional war i like to call "korea".
like butta that one was.
vietnam? cakewalk.
iraq? everything coming up roses.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
we could destroy China with conventional forces, China could not begin to touch the US.
If the nuclear option is on the table, then China loses again.
woahhhh lol We could huh? Maybe you just arent uptodate on chinese military equipment.
Want to explain China losing the nuclear option? There would be no winner we would all perish if that happens.
The post is China invading Taiwan Not invading the continental U.S.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Given time they will get it back economicaly.
quite a little manufacturing outfit they got there too.
i have to agree with you on that one. it will be economic.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
woahhhh lol We could huh? Maybe you just arent uptodate on chinese military equipment.
Want to explain China losing the nuclear option? There would be no winner we would all perish if that happens.
The post is China invading Taiwan Not invading the continental U.S.
China would lose a nuclear exchange... they can't hit all of the US, not even close.
And China could not even take Taiwan with conventional forces.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
China would lose a nuclear exchange... they can't hit all of the US, not even close.
And China could not even take Taiwan with conventional forces.
They cant? Ever hear of submarines? There ICBM's can go up to 15000 km (most of the continental U.S) and the SLBM have ranges well over 1000 km That is fairly well off the coast of the U.S. and capable of delivering warheads in the 200-300 kiloton range. So explain again how they cant hit us. And those are just the missiles we know of.
2nd part great evidence you swayed my opinion...NOT
-
they cant hit all of the US?
someone please remind me how many thermonuclear detonations it takes to achieve global fallout conditions?
Intercontinental Nuclear Forces
China currently maintains a minimal intercontinental nuclear deterrent using land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). The Dong Feng-5 (DF-5) liquid-fueled missile, first deployed in 1981, has a range of 13,000 km and carries a single multi-megaton warhead. Twenty are believed to be deployed in central China, southwest of Beijing. Unlike China's earlier ballistic missiles, which were stored in caves and moved out for launch, the DF-5 can be launched directly from vertical silos—but only after a two-hour fueling process. In order to increase the survivability of the DF-5s, dummy silos are placed near the real silos. The DF-5's range gives it coverage of all of Asia and Europe, and most of the United States. The south-eastern US states are at the edge of the missile's range.
(http://www.thorninpaw.com/u/htdocs/thorni/images/Dr.%20Strangelove.jpg)
-
Originally posted by JB88
someone please remind me how many thermonuclear detonations it takes to achieve global fallout conditions?
Wont matter to much the number...any signifigant number detonations on the west side of the U.S. will lead to fallout all over the country. And as I said they have nuclear armed subs so the entire U.S. IS a potential target.
-
what was that old movie with jason robards where the bomb went off and he saw the mushroom cloud but lived to tell about it? cant for the life of me remember what it was, but im pretty sure it must be accurate.
i remember another one called "threads" that was a bit more horrific. it was an english production if i remember correctly.
(http://www.learnersonline.com/weekly/lessons04/week4/012604-2.jpg)
-
War with China would be a disaster.
MAYBE on a small scale naval engagement we could win, but a land war with China would be bad.
We had better weapons in Korea but human wave attacks still pushed us back.
The war going nuke would be bad for everyone, nukes are not a viable weapon of war if anyone wants to live.
-
Sounds like Atlas missle level technology (Surprised actually) and I believe the subs are noisy as hell. But, it just takes one hit to spell a total human and economic disaster in the US. Even the though of vaporizing one US city is a pretty big deterrent for the US, regardless of the ability to counterstrike.
Conventionally, China is making a great effort to upgrade its forces, but the naval focus of an invasion makes that much easier to counter by Taiwan. IMO PRC is likely uparming just to keep its threat and intimidation potential hight.
Charon
-
Originally posted by Raider179
Anyone else get the feeling china is waiting for the U.S. to get tired of fighting in Iraq and is gonna make a move on Taiwan?
Nope not at all. China could take Taiwan anytime it want's but it's better of economically at the moment with it there. Their busy opening up direct flight routes and increasing trade at the moment.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Are you kidding? China can't even take Taiwan. We would decimate China and they couldn't touch us.
Nuke you are a complete idiot and obviously have never been to China, have any understanding at all of the country,it's people,culture and military.
Your opinions on US v anyone else are immature and I wonder if that's actually a current picture of you instead of one 30 or 40 years ago.
...-Gixer
-
By the way it seems Britain is supporting the European lifting of the Arms Embargo against China so there's no doubt that will take place. And given China's economy,growth and wealth these day's I can imagine their shopping list will be rather big.
...-Gixer
-
Charon they still have diesel's that when they go electric are almost impossible to detect. Gixer good point!
-
dear santra craws.
i rould rike a shieny new set of intercontinetowl baristic missrals.
i rould rike a new submerine and a bland new air force.
i rould aslo rike a weel beeg freet of boats.
sank you velly much,
china
-
88 that is horrible...funny as hell but horrible lol
-
<--- bad bad man.
i wonder what it sounds like when they do impressions of us.
do you think that there any chinese on chinese BB's saying....
"we could trake rat wotten unitred strates wiff owr barristic missrels...rey roundnt even be rable to ruch us."
god. i hope not.
-
korea dosn't count ,it was a UN action and truman would not commit enough forces to win, he was afraid of china and russia, truman thought russia was going to invade europe and kept most of the US forces there( including most of the F86's)
the US buys 50% of china's exports, why would china want to go to war with their biggest customer? you people are still living in the last century.
china/taiwan will be handled similar to hong kong.
-
Nuke is more right than you people are giving him credit for. Numbers do not an effective army make. In the Korean conflict they may have sufficed, but today's war is much faster, more lethal, and more technology dependent. All those fancy gizmos the US Armed Forces has are terrific force multipliers. Our armor and air power could engage and destroy theirs before they ever 1) saw it coming 2) could do a damn thing about it. Conventional vs. conventional China can't touch us. They have the sheer numbers, but their logisitics and tech lag far behind the US. The US is the only nation that has the logistics in place to project its forces effectively and supply those forces.
China vs. Taiwan....dunno....but it'd be a helluva fight. If China established a foothold on Taiwan it would be over. Establishing that foothold would be another story. Taiwan has lots of fancy gizmos too :)
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
War with China would be a disaster.
MAYBE on a small scale naval engagement we could win, but a land war with China would be bad.
We had better weapons in Korea but human wave attacks still pushed us back.
The war going nuke would be bad for everyone, nukes are not a viable weapon of war if anyone wants to live.
Actually our technology advantage is much wider now than in Korea..
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Nuke you are a complete idiot and obviously have never been to China, have any understanding at all of the country,it's people,culture and military.
Your opinions on US v anyone else are immature and I wonder if that's actually a current picture of you instead of one 30 or 40 years ago.
...-Gixer
Personal attack? what's your problem?
Why would I have had to been to China to know that they couldn't touch the US with conventional forces?
Skuzzy, you around to see this this guy?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Well, he is right.
what was he right about?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Personal attack? what's your problem?
Skuzzy, you around to see this this guy?
So, are you crying here, or just bucking for hall monitor?
-
SOB, you never seem to have anything much to say, other than a smart arse remark here and there. No serious discussion from you, ever.
You are a clown. Make me laugh, clown.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
SOB, you never seem to have anything much to say, other than a smart arse remark here and there. No serious discussion from you, ever.
You are a clown. Make me laugh, clown.
Would you like me to dance, or perhaps a knock knock joke? I can juggle too!
-
Originally posted by GScholz
You being an immature idiot.
I guess because I don't agree with you, huh?
I love how you gushed over JB88 though......a true immature person. I guess it doesn't matter, as long as he agrees with you.
And I will argue any point with you.
Are you saying the China could invade the US or attack us with conventional forces? I say China couldn'd touch us. Am I wrong?
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Nuke is more right than you people are giving him credit for. Numbers do not an effective army make. In the Korean conflict they may have sufficed, but today's war is much faster, more lethal, and more technology dependent. All those fancy gizmos the US Armed Forces has are terrific force multipliers. Our armor and air power could engage and destroy theirs before they ever 1) saw it coming 2) could do a damn thing about it. Conventional vs. conventional China can't touch us. They have the sheer numbers, but their logisitics and tech lag far behind the US. The US is the only nation that has the logistics in place to project its forces effectively and supply those forces.
China vs. Taiwan....dunno....but it'd be a helluva fight. If China established a foothold on Taiwan it would be over. Establishing that foothold would be another story. Taiwan has lots of fancy gizmos too :)
1) korea is meaningless in this argument plz leave it out
2) GScholz is dead on about chinese technology not being that far from ours. For example their type 98 MBT has a laser warning system that actively interferes with laser designators.
The only thing I see we have and they dont is stealth.
3) you are forgetting that MOST of our armed forces are tied up right now
4) yeah taiwan has 4 subs, 7 destroyers, 22 frigates, 146 f-16s, 57 mirage 2000's, 128 IDF's and 90 F-5s,
not much of a match at all against china who has 67 subs, 24 destroyers, 45 frigates, 90 Guided missile boats, 150 Amphibious Assault ships, 120 bombers, 400 attack planes, 1400 fighters,
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Are you saying the China could invade the US or attack us with conventional forces? I say China couldn'd touch us. Am I wrong?
Do not hijack this thread! This is not about invading the US it is not about Korea. This is strictly China taking Taiwan. Go start a thread on china invading U.S if you want to talk about that. STAY ON TOPIC!!!
-
Originally posted by Raider179
not much of a match at all against china who has 67 subs, 24 destroyers, 45 frigates, 90 Guided missile boats, 150 Amphibious Assault ships, 120 bombers, 400 attack planes, 1400 fighters,
So, with a WHOPPING 150 amphibious assault ships, how is China going to land enough troops to take Taiwan?
China cannot project any power because they, well can't project any power.
The US can project power.....probably the only nation that can.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Nuke is more right than you people are giving him credit for. Numbers do not an effective army make. In the Korean conflict they may have sufficed, but today's war is much faster, more lethal, and more technology dependent. All those fancy gizmos the US Armed Forces has are terrific force multipliers. Our armor and air power could engage and destroy theirs before they ever 1) saw it coming 2) could do a damn thing about it. Conventional vs. conventional China can't touch us. They have the sheer numbers, but their logisitics and tech lag far behind the US. The US is the only nation that has the logistics in place to project its forces effectively and supply those forces.
China vs. Taiwan....dunno....but it'd be a helluva fight. If China established a foothold on Taiwan it would be over. Establishing that foothold would be another story. Taiwan has lots of fancy gizmos too :)
approximatly 5 ga-zillion chinese on earth, just imagine giving them a CAUSE to hijack an Airliner...
I see you boys haven't learned your lessons well...
-
Possibility that China could effectively cripple the U.S. economically by means of cessation of production items.
Hal Fishman's (SoCal channel 5 news) commentary the other night was on the irony of inability to find inaugural memorabilia that was made in the U.S.
-
iraq had the 4th largest army in the world.... before the US attacked them........
-
winning a war doesnt mean lobbing stuff over a border, no matter how you cut it. you have to occupy.
i agree that war is not going to be fought in the same way in this century, but i dont think that its going to be any easier to wage or to win just because we can pitch a smart bomb into a tin can. people still factor into the equasion, and the chances that we, a relative newborn are going to bring the ancient society of china to its knees is nieve at best.
look at iraq. i mean really.
remember, the japanese destroyed a significant portion of our navy and we turned around and put em back out at a record pace. other countries have nationalism too and there is really only so far that we can roll this ball before we become the thing that we despise and sink into a craphole.
the chinese probably have some pretty dern sophisticated hackers at thier disposal as well.
india too.
world war 1. the war to end all wars just got worse and more horrific the next go around.
technology makes that possible.
the wars of the future will be fought on all levels but the human suffering is only going to get worse.
its just plain irresponsible to bring nukes into the equasion. its suicide and its utterly illogical. havent you seen "war games" man? lol.
"hello doctor faulkner...would you like to play a game?"
i have to agree more and more with the sentiment that china is going to win economically. it is where they are placing the bulk of thier energy and all indicators point at thier success.
the hong kong analogy was brilliant btw.
-
War With China
Charles R. Smith
Tuesday, Aug. 14, 2001
On the first day of World War III, the United States lost two-thirds of its military and nearly half its population, yielding superiority to communist China. U.S. orders of the day were of high alert, and there is simply no evading the fact that we were not ready.
The Chinese rain of missiles on U.S. installations and homeland cities was a military masterpiece. The People's Liberation Army Second Artillery Corp achieved complete surprise, armed only with a small force of more than 300 tactical and 10 strategic missiles.
Defenseless against the attack, U.S. forces in Hawaii, Alaska, South Korea and Japan were quickly overwhelmed by the guided warheads of the Chinese missiles. The bombs plunged out of the inky blackness of space, striking within seconds of each other. The rain of death fell swiftly upon a sleeping America with precise and devastating accuracy.
In a span of little more than 30 minutes, China wiped out Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, San Diego, Chicago, Washington, Boston, New York, Hawaii, Manila, Seoul, Taipei and Tokyo.
China sank five U.S. carriers, seven Ohio class submarines, vaporized more than 200 MX and Minuteman missiles and destroyed more than 800 combat aircraft including 15 B-2 strategic bombers. The strikes also killed more than 100 million people without the loss of a single PLA soldier.
The Second Artillery succeeded by striking key U.S. bases, warships and air fields with a swift and bold attack. The attack left China with 10 remaining strategic missiles and nearly 300 tactical missiles, holding the devastated U.S. homeland hostage to another strike.
Despite the calls to retaliate, sending the scattered remains of U.S. nuclear forces against China would not stop another attack on America, nor would it stop the PLA Generals who ordered the first.
There is no question that the U.S. strategic missiles could devastate the Chinese homeland. However, killing hundreds of millions of innocent Chinese citizens would do little to deter the warlords in Beijing from launching the second wave of 10 missiles while remaining hidden inside bomb-proof tunnels.
China's sudden and brutal attack forced America to surrender on Beijing's terms. In little more than 48 hours, China won World War III.
Source (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/8/14/174213.shtml)
You sure you wouldn't prefer a nice game of chess?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
So, with a WHOPPING 150 amphibious assault ships, how is China going to land enough troops to take Taiwan?
China cannot project any power because they, well can't project any power.
The US can project power.....probably the only nation that can.
1)China can project power over the distance required. Do you know how far it is from Mainland china to Taiwan? 120 miles... Not exactly on the other side of the world.
2) how will they get troops there? How did we get troops on the beach at normandy? See this link...
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/art3-au1.htm
summed up it says the chinese have capability to land upwards of 2 million troops on Taiwan using merchant fleet...The main problem they face is getting armor and hvy equipment over there.
-
That's not even close to reality.
-
wow Nuke you won me over with your response...NOT! Do you even know what NWC is?
-
Nevermind that as others have pointed out that the Chinese cant put any meaningful military power in Taiwan (how do you propose they get those merchant ships through even one US Navy CV battle group?), they wont do it because they will lose exponentially more than they would ever gain from taking it. China is the most brutally pragmatic government in the world, they will change any policy they have if it is to their advantage, and taking Taiwan is not to their advantage in any way.
-
USA surrender to a first strike nuclear attack, thats laughable.
The second Chinese nucler missles are flying to the USA we respond witrh a massive strike that wipes out all of China.
Or do you think we still dont have that policy and the proper targeting data..
Or missles stealthily attacking from the "inky black" of space, what did we turn Norad into a Disney cave fun park?
Did our satelites just run out of batteries?
And just exactly how does china even find let alone sink all our Ohio class boomers, each one capable of destroying all of china by itself..
Or how to the "PLA Generals" deal with the fact that all of their nation is destroyed too?
You know the article is deceptivly two faced, on one hand it boasts that China is no longer a backwards stone age peaseant nation and thus a real hight tech threat. But it strikes me that the piece still basically works from the idea that China is still that backwards nation that would not suffer from loss of vital infrastrucxture and cities caused by nuclear war..
The whole scenario is rather full of flash but lacking in substance.
-
Originally posted by Grits
Nevermind that as others have pointed out that the Chinese cant put any meaningful military power in Taiwan (how do you propose they get those merchant ships through even one US Navy CV battle group?), they wont do it because they will lose exponentially more than they would ever gain from taking it. China is the most brutally pragmatic government in the world, they will change any policy they have if it is to their advantage, and taking Taiwan is not to their advantage in any way.
You assume that a U.S. task force is guarding Taiwan. I havent seen anything that says this is the case. Even if it were ever heard of cruise missiles or anti-ship? The chinese have both including a knockoff of the exocet. Might have a hard time defending 1 carrier task force from Land based attacks.
-
No doubt it has holes, Grun. It's fiction.
While I believe that the U.S. would ultimately win in any military contest against the Chinese, I believe that the economic and military cost would be horrific. I also believe that the American people have no stomach for it.
-
Originally posted by Sandman
No doubt it has holes, Grun. It's fiction.
While I believe that the U.S. would ultimately win in any military contest against the Chinese, I believe that the economic and military cost would be horrific. I also believe that the American people have no stomach for it.
Of course it would be horiffic, all major wars are.
As for your second point, and especially in this context, the Japanese thought so too.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Of course it would be horiffic, all major wars are.
As for your second point, and especially in this context, the Japanese thought so too.
Ah... but Japan is out of context. They hit us directly and they did it first.
As Nuke points out, China lacks the abilty to project power.
-
Originally posted by Sandman
Ah... but Japan is out of context. They hit us directly and they did it first.
As Nuke points out, China lacks the abilty to project power.
Context was the scenario you posted.
-
I think a more intresting subject is whether the US would intervine if China did take Taiwan. Personally I don't think they would militarilly it wouldn't be worth the risc short term or economically in the long term. Not to mention they have the capability to sink a carrier task force before it even reaches Taiwan.
Some of you seem to think China today is the China it was 40 or even 10 years ago. It's progressed in leaps in bounds since then and their growth rate is Phenomenal. No doubt at their current rate within the next 15 to 20 years they will be the world's super power, economically and militarilly.
They don't need to invade Taiwan let alone the US (that's old hat) they just take it economically instead.
...-Gixer
-
Gixer you mean...........Like: Owned?:eek:
-
Originally posted by patrone
Gixer you mean...........Like: Owned?:eek:
Are you able to translate that comment as I have no idea what you mean.
...-Gixer
-
If China ever decides to take Taiwan, then they can have 'em. Particularly if the other option is us intervening militarily.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Are you able to translate that comment as I have no idea what you mean.
...-Gixer
Like they will buy them instead of invading them?,,,,USA and Taiwan would be owned by Chineese?
-
China is capable to destroy US financially; they don't have to use guns at all.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
I think a more intresting subject is whether the US would intervine if China did take Taiwan. Personally I don't think they would militarilly it wouldn't be worth the risc short term or economically in the long term. Not to mention they have the capability to sink a carrier task force before it even reaches Taiwan.
Some of you seem to think China today is the China it was 40 or even 10 years ago. It's progressed in leaps in bounds since then and their growth rate is Phenomenal. No doubt at their current rate within the next 15 to 20 years they will be the world's super power, economically and militarilly.
They don't need to invade Taiwan let alone the US (that's old hat) they just take it economically instead.
...-Gixer
Gixer this is exactly the type of thing I was looking for out of this thread. It is pretty obvious that china can demolish taiwan and then go in if it wanted to. Good points I believe I agree that they seem to be trying to take it economically. open of trade/air routes etc...
-
Originally posted by Staga
China is capable to destroy US financially; they don't have to use guns at all.
interesting but not true IMO . America survived without China before and I believe we could do so again.
Sidenote...Does anyone know or can point to where the U.S. is obligated to defend Taiwan? I am pretty sure I remember that we are somehow but I cant remember how.
-
Originally posted by patrone
Like they will buy them instead of invading them?,,,,USA and Taiwan would be owned by Chineese?
Already happening isn't it?
...-Gixer
-
Could they buy like all TV stations in USA and only send the stuff they wanted to? Same with newspapers? Maybe sponsor a President candidate that they knew would be very friendly towards them?
I am talking about the chineese, now
-
Originally posted by JB88
the chinese probably have some pretty dern sophisticated hackers at thier disposal as well.
Almost missed this
Ok 5 points to who can name the virus/worm the chinese released and the circumstances it was released under.
5 bonus points did american hackers retaliate?
sorry for going a little off topic but I had forgotten this
-
Yea, China could take Taiwan... and if they couldn't they might just nuke off right off the map. Dunno what the prevailing winds are like in the part of the world, fallout might make that an unattractive option.
I'm not sure how many people are actually aware of the fact that within 20 years, the U.S. will no longer be a economic "superpower".. it will be Asia's turn.
We'll probably still be a military superpower, I really can't imagine the United States politicians ever giving that up voluntarily, although it'd be something if China put us out of business the way we put the Soviet Union out.
Pretty much any major war between two nuclear countries will result in one country ceasing to exist. Maybe both, but definately one.
In my opinion anyway.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
I'm not sure how many people are actually aware of the fact that within 20 years, the U.S. will no longer be a economic "superpower".. it will be Asia's turn.
We'll probably still be a military superpower, I really can't imagine the United States politicians ever giving that up voluntarily, although it'd be something
It's not possible to sustain a military superpower long term without the super economy to support it. US politicians might not have any choice in the matter.
...-Gixer
-
Yea, which is why I said it'd be interesting if the Chinese put us out of business the way we put the Soviets out of business.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Oh China has the ability to project plenty of power towards Taiwan (which is the thread topic). If the US wants to intervene, it will have to park its carriers within the reach of the largest air force in the world.
we do have 5 battlegroups in the pacific, ill concede this, but i dont believe that is even remotely enough to win a war with china, which is what will have to happen to successfully defend taiwan should they decide to take it.
i just dont believe that we will. i.e. we will find a way to back out of it and save face simultainiously.
and i just dont think that china is seriously going to invade tiawan until they have achieve superpower status.
which they will.
-
Originally posted by patrone
Could they buy like all TV stations in USA and only send the stuff they wanted to? Same with newspapers? Maybe sponsor a President candidate that they knew would be very friendly towards them?
I am talking about the chineese, now
they got pretty cozy to clinton, though i am not totally in disagreement with the practice. his arguement was essentially the same as many of us, that intertwining china economically will force thier hand on certain human rights issues and render war a negative economic probability.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
interesting but not true IMO . America survived without China before and I believe we could do so again.
Indeed, but the economic damage to the US would be horrible. China would be damaged in the short term as well, but not anywhere near to the same degree. And Beijing doesn't have to worry about keeping the voters happy.
Hell China is already starting to sell USDs and buy Euros. They are also starting to purchase companies in the US, Canada and elsewhere.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Indeed, but the economic damage to the US would be horrible. China would be damaged in the short term as well, but not anywhere near to the same degree. And Beijing doesn't have to worry about keeping the voters happy.
Hell China is already starting to sell USDs and buy Euros. They are also starting to purchase companies in the US, Canada and elsewhere.
"I said wolk liadel, if you dont wolk you will not get youl daily bowl of lice!!"
:lol
-
A single-minded financially growing high export closed Asian command economy is buying up the USA!!!!! Its all over!!! There is no hope!!! We are doomed!
Where have I heard this before?
-
"And you to GLUN, wolk, no playing the pc, wolk fol youl lice.....hihihihi"
(Sorry, really not making fun of the chineese people)
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Indeed, but the economic damage to the US would be horrible. China would be damaged in the short term as well, but not anywhere near to the same degree. And Beijing doesn't have to worry about keeping the voters happy.
Hell China is already starting to sell USDs and buy Euros. They are also starting to purchase companies in the US, Canada and elsewhere.
they are also investing heavilly in south america.
big time.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
A single-minded financially growing high export closed Asian command economy is buying up the USA!!!!! Its all over!!! There is no hope!!! We are doomed!
Where have I heard this before?
Yeah, good thing Japan and China are exactly the same so the anology holds. :rolleyes:
At least we will have company when China does the same thing to Europe in 20 years.
"they are also investing heavilly in south america.
big time."
I wasn't aware of that, but I'm not surprised.
-
its one of those page three news items.
thats were the future lies if you ask me...page three.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, good thing Japan and China are exactly the same so the anology holds. :rolleyes:
At least we will have company when China does the same thing to Europe in 20 years.
No, but the calls for doom and despair are identical...
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!
I wonder will all the new US corporate/action/futuristic movies feature little shops selling fried rat and chinese style advertisins like 1980s movies did with Japanese themes...
-
I'll let you military experts hash this out while I worry about **** that actually worries me.
I think some of you are very ignorant about US military technology and the impact it has on a conventional battleground.
-
Plus... you need to completely disregard what's happening in Iraq, the complaints about troop strength, rotation schedules, reservist activation, stop loss, and all that.
China would be a slam dunk.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I'll let you military experts hash this out while I worry about **** that actually worries me.
I think some of you are very ignorant about US military technology and the impact it has on a conventional battleground.
well. ill listen.
explain please.
:)
-
Originally posted by Sandman
Plus... you need to completely disregard what's happening in Iraq, the complaints about troop strength, rotation schedules, reservist activation, stop loss, and all that.
China would be a slam dunk.
Please....
We could prevent China from invading Taiwan without involving any of our land forces.
-
We are the most powerful country on the planet. We can do pretty much whatever we want.
...but there will be a cost and China would be expensive.
-
I totally agree....it would be ugly and expensive....like WW2 expensive....but the outcome is clear. Kind of like the Spurs-Suns game tonight....long, hard-fought, and ugly, but you know the Spurs are gonna win :)
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Please....
We could prevent China from invading Taiwan without involving any of our land forces.
How? our navy? You might be forgetting china's 70+ subs...Modern subs are very dangerous to carrier task forces. Not to mention land based bombers, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles etc.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I'll let you military experts hash this out while I worry about **** that actually worries me.
I think some of you are very ignorant about US military technology and the impact it has on a conventional battleground.
This is actually one of few places in the world where the possibility of a nuclear WWIII exists. The other I would say pakistan/india but not on topic...
Seems like you think they quit making technology when they made our stuff.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No, but the calls for doom and despair are identical...
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!
I wonder will all the new US corporate/action/futuristic movies feature little shops selling fried rat and chinese style advertisins like 1980s movies did with Japanese themes...
blaaaaaaderunner. you mean blaaaaaaaderunner.
-
One of many, yes. :)
-
gawd i hope not. bladerunner was a great film...but the haircuts....
i keep flashing to this awful rick springfield video with a similar theme.
tragic.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I'll let you military experts hash this out while I worry about **** that actually worries me.
I think some of you are very ignorant about US military technology and the impact it has on a conventional battleground.
The very same military is unable to protect Iraqis and even themselves from fifty years old technology, used by poorly trained, but determined foes.
Don't expect chinese to only fight the evil satanic USA with their actual military.
They would most likely utilize partisans left behind the lines to disrupt supply and organization.
I would expect it to be a bit easier in China than in Iraq, due to terrain. Wouldn't be as necessary to disguise as civilians to carry out strikes.
In some areas it'd be like in Vietnam, but this time also with an actual army.
I wouldn't be too over confident, since that is the first step to the defeat.
Since Vietnam the USA hasn't been involved in any actually dramatic wars, which the war against chinese forces would be.
The Iraq I and II would been a vacation for many soldiers who participated in the WWII, Korea and even Vietnam.
-
Let's be honest here, an invasion of China, if it ever came to that prolly wouldnt be an Iraq style democratization type limited war where our forces are trying very hard to kill as few as possible...
-
Raider123489738257 you seem to think that I'm referring to a nuclear war.....I'm not. I'm speaking strictly conventional.
Fishu- Again, you are comparing a guerilla campaign to a conventionally fought war.
All my comments are based on a strictly conventional vs. conventional conflict.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Fishu- Again, you are comparing a guerilla campaign to a conventionally fought war.
All my comments are based on a strictly conventional vs. conventional conflict.
Because it will be part of the conventional war.
Are you familiar with the war between germans and russians in world war 2?
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Raider123489738257 you seem to think that I'm referring to a nuclear war.....I'm not. I'm speaking strictly conventional.
All my comments are based on a strictly conventional vs. conventional conflict.
radkhgana;djn
1) I said nothing of the sort. I said modern chinese subs could decimate a carrier group. What I did say is for you to tell us how we would just steam roll the chinese. Which you did not.
2)You obviously think the chinese are living in the 12th century.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Let's be honest here, an invasion of China, if it ever came to that prolly wouldnt be an Iraq style democratization type limited war where our forces are trying very hard to kill as few as possible...
umm yeah there is some diference between Iraq and China.
When i look at the money needed to Invade poor lill Iraq, then i simply see the most realistic reason, why US can not never ever attack china.
Actualy China is contemporary biggest US debts buyer.
Anyway china has developed its own way, how to get some other country. vis. Tibet.
And they are going to do the same with Taiwan IMO.
-
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Raider123489738257 you seem to think that I'm referring to a nuclear war.....I'm not. I'm speaking strictly conventional.
Okay, how?
-
Keeping in mind that Taiwan has Patriot batteries, a well equiped and trained air force, state of the art anti-ship missles and access to American Sat. info....wouldn't it be a long swim for the Chinese Army?
(http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/250/250613/folders/187846/1404862300px-TaiwanStrait.jpg)
-
its 120 miles
1) china probably knows the location of most of their airfields and missile batterys. I would expect a pounding form surface to surface missiles. And I would bet but havent checked that China has way more Surface to surface missiles than taiwan has patriots.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
its 120 miles
1) china probably knows the location of most of their airfields and missile batterys. I would expect a pounding form surface to surface missiles. And I would bet but havent checked that China has way more Surface to surface missiles than taiwan has patriots.
You miss the point. China can't defeat taiwan with scud missles. You have to have boots on the ground. Crossing 120 miles of open water against state of the art weapons would be suicide.
-
Not missing any point....I do grasp the difficulty in crossing the strait but China has high tech weapons as well and in far far greater numbers. Taiwan has the 1st gen of Patriots....not the Pac-3 which seem to be on hold as we are producing them for ourselves... And info I have seen shows only 64-200 of them in theatre. Not much of a defense against a couple thousand Chinese surface to surface missiles.
1)Be kind of hard to launch planes when your runways are full of craters.
2) Missile batteries tend to be stationary and therefore very vulnerable to attack.
3) the taiwanese navy would probably get sunk by the 70+ chinese subs.
p.s. Scuds are russian made not chinese
-
Were I the Chinese, and I wanted to take Taiwan, I would convince my little buddy N. Korea to start something to distract the US.
Anyone know what the current state of the Chines suface navy is? Air defence? Interceptors and strike fightes?
-
Originally posted by Raider179
Not missing any point....I do grasp the difficulty in crossing the strait but China has high tech weapons as well and in far far greater numbers. Taiwan has the 1st gen of Patriots....not the Pac-3 which seem to be on hold as we are producing them for ourselves... And info I have seen shows only 64-200 of them in theatre. Not much of a defense against a couple thousand Chinese surface to surface missiles.
1)Be kind of hard to launch planes when your runways are full of craters.
2) Missile batteries tend to be stationary and therefore very vulnerable to attack.
3) the taiwanese navy would probably get sunk by the 70+ chinese subs.
p.s. Scuds are russian made not chinese
I use the term scud to infer useless, not country of origin. If you think that surface to surface missles is all the Chinese need to defeat Taiwan I hope the Chinese think the same way and go for it. Patriots are mobil and are AA not anti-missle. Trust me when I tell you the Taiwanese are not concerned with the Chinese Subs.
If China could have figured out a way to take formosa it would have happened long ago. But go ahead...make my day.:D
-
Originally posted by majic
Were I the Chinese, and I wanted to take Taiwan, I would convince my little buddy N. Korea to start something to distract the US.
Anyone know what the current state of the Chines suface navy is? Air defence? Interceptors and strike fightes?
yeah taiwan has 4 subs, 7 destroyers, 22 frigates, 146 f-16s, 57 mirage 2000's, 128 IDF's and 90 F-5s,
not much of a match at all against china who has 67 subs, 24 destroyers, 45 frigates, 90 Guided missile boats, 150 Amphibious Assault ships, 120 bombers, 400 attack planes, 1400 fighters
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
I use the term scud to infer useless, not country of origin. If you think that surface to surface missles is all the Chinese need to defeat Taiwan I hope the Chinese think the same way and go for it. Patriots are mobil and are AA not anti-missle. Trust me when I tell you the Taiwanese are not concerned with the Chinese Subs.
If China could have figured out a way to take formosa it would have happened long ago. But go ahead...make my day.:D
1) patriots can do both
2) not scared of diesel/electric subs huh? you do know that when under electric power those Chinese subs are undetectable. That makes the taiwanese navy pretty much a big target.
3)Never said it was all they needed. What I did say was that is how they would go about killing the taiwanese airforce and missile batteries.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Nope not at all. China could take Taiwan anytime it want's but it's better of economically at the moment with it there. Their busy opening up direct flight routes and increasing trade at the moment.
...-Gixer
Sure. Care to explain how China would be able to invade Taiwan?
-
Originally posted by Raider179
1) patriots can do both
2) not scared of diesel/electric subs huh? you do know that when under electric power those Chinese subs are undetectable. That makes the taiwanese navy pretty much a big target.
3)Never said it was all they needed. What I did say was that is how they would go about killing the taiwanese airforce and missile batteries.
(1) All subs are electric...no sub is undetectable.
(2) Any airforce attempting to attack Taiwan would suffer unacceptable losses.
(3) The Tiawanese airforce is one of the most formidible in the world.
You have to keep in mind that the Chinese would still have to get large numbers of troops on the ground...they would be at the bottom of the formosa strait.
The patriots where used against scuds to placate Israel in the Gulf war...they are primarily an AA missle and are deadly. One of the main reasons saddam did not use fighter bombers to attack them and chose to use the scuds.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Sure. Care to explain how China would be able to invade Taiwan?
sure here you go read away
The section you want is under phased invasion
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/art3-au1.htm
-
Originally posted by Raider179
sure here you go read away
The section you want is under phased invasion
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/art3-au1.htm
The other camp, in contrast, recognizes Taiwan’s qualitative advantage in combat aircraft and warships. Moreover, this group perceives the difficulties inherent in an invasion of Taiwan and grasps the natural advantages possessed by defending forces.3 Although these analysts acknowledge that Chinese modernization could someday prove decisive in a future invasion attempt, they usually place this development ten or twenty years hence.
In other words... go ahead make my day.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
yeah taiwan has 4 subs, 7 destroyers, 22 frigates, 146 f-16s, 57 mirage 2000's, 128 IDF's and 90 F-5s,
not much of a match at all against china who has 67 subs, 24 destroyers, 45 frigates, 90 Guided missile boats, 150 Amphibious Assault ships, 120 bombers, 400 attack planes, 1400 fighters
You have the numbers, do you know what kind of planes and navy the Chinese have? Most of those planes are trash...... copies of Mig-19 and worse. They have a very primative air force overall, same with the navy.
And as far a nuclear capabilities. Just one American SSBN can carry seven times the total number of warheads carried on all of China’s D-5 ICBMs. The Chinese missles are liquid fueed and take hours to get ready to launch. They are not in hardened silos. They are vulnerable.
The US has 6000 warheads we can deliver to China.
They have one sub that "carries" nuclear missles. They barley got it to work and canceled the others like it. The sub has never left Chinese waters, because it's so vulnerable.
Last I heard, the Chinese may reach military parity with Taiwan sometime after 2008. If you think China could take Taiwan, you are mistaken. Maybe in 20 years they could.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
(1) All subs are electric...no sub is undetectable.
(2) Any airforce attempting to attack Taiwan would suffer unacceptable losses.
(3) The Tiawanese airforce is one of the most formidible in the world.
You have to keep in mind that the Chinese would still have to get large numbers of troops on the ground...they would be at the bottom of the formosa strait.
The patriots where used against scuds to placate Israel in the Gulf war...they are primarily an AA missle and are deadly. One of the main reasons saddam did not use fighter bombers to attack them and chose to use the scuds.
1) I said diesel/electric all subs are not diesel/electric...
2) your right I should have used a qualifier....virtually undetectable
3)how is the taiwanese airforce gonna launch if they dont have runways..Surface to surface missiles and cruise missiles would take care of that...Unless you dont think china has cruise missiles
4) You can use those 200 patriots at whatever targets you want, that is not gonna stop china from acheiving air superiority and thus control of the strait
5)read the Navy war college link I posted about phased invasion
-
Originally posted by NUKE
And as far a nuclear capabilities. Just one American SSBN can carry seven times the total number of warheads carried on all of China’s D-5 ICBMs. The Chinese missles are liquid fueed and take hours to get ready to launch. They are not in hardened silos. They are vulnerable.
The US has 6000 warheads we can deliver to China.
They have one sub that "carries" nuclear missles. They barley got it to work and canceled the others like it. The sub has never left Chinese waters, because it's so vulnerable.
Any launch of Nukes would IMO not matter because the world would more than likely end. No Winner.
chinese nukes are estimated at 35-60 minutes fueling time
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-5.htm
-
We all should hope anything discussed here will never take place....the cost is too great.
Might be different if we had allies abroad in Europe other than GB...the rest of Europe would be at Gsholz's house having popcorn and their favorite beverage, delighted at the possible demise of the US.
IMO, we should pull out of europe and stand only by our true friends....the rest of europe can fare for itself....the next crisis I'm certain the UN can handle.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
No I'm saying this is wrong:
That's the thing with you. You keep changing the premise of the discussion. The USA cannot even hope to successfully invade or "decimate" China.
We could most certainly decimate China with conventional forces. I didn't ever say we could invade and take over China, although if it were an all out war to the absolute death, I believe we would win. If the US mobilized for complete war, I do not beleive we could lose to anyone.
In a conventional war, the Chinese mainland would be at our mercy and they could not touch the US mainland. We could bomb them into the dirt.
What are 2.5 million troops going to do if they can't get to us? It would be a bloodbath in China if we pulled out all the stops and didn't play nice, like we did in Iraq.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
1) I said diesel/electric all subs are not diesel/electric...
2) your right I should have used a qualifier....virtually undetectable
3)how is the taiwanese airforce gonna launch if they dont have runways..Surface to surface missiles and cruise missiles would take care of that...Unless you dont think china has cruise missiles
4) You can use those 200 patriots at whatever targets you want, that is not gonna stop china from acheiving air superiority and thus control of the strait
5)read the Navy war college link I posted about phased invasion
I see you don't quite understand how subs work....All WWI and WWII subs where diesel/electric. Diesel on the surface to charge batteries, and electric to run submerged (No Air to run an internal combustion engine down there. With the advent of nuclear power they can stay submerged indefinately.
The piece that you posted comes with many if's to many for the Chinese to ignore such as
There are, of course, a number of big “ifs.” If the Chinese air force failed to gain air superiority, or if the navy could not get millions of troops afloat, an attack would halt even before embarkation. Well before any attempt, if China did not expand its airfield capacity near the coast facing Taiwan, it could not even contemplate air superiority; similarly, if China had not significantly expanded its port capacity in the same region, it could not use effectively the sea lift to be requisitioned from the merchant marine. Sea control would be contingent on the submarine force’s ability to sweep and hold a security corridor from shore to shore; if that corridor were breached, the assault forces would most likely be destroyed en route. If, having crossed, the assault waves could not maintain coherence among the great mass of men and materiel, the defenders would prevail.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
You have the numbers, do you know what kind of planes and navy the Chinese have? Most of those planes are trash...... copies of Mig-19 and worse. They have a very primative air force overall, same with the navy.
.
Nuke you really have no idea, go visit http://www.globalsecurity.org China has more then a few obsolote Mig19's in 15 years time they are forcasted (with current orders and growth) to have a bigger and better equipped air force (other then stealth) then the US with the latest Migs & Flankers. Add to that the Backfire bombers,AWACS and Tankers which they are purchsing and looking to make under licence.
Try and get your image of China out of the 60's. It's come along way since then even since 90's.
It would be impossible for the US or any nation to win a conventional all out war against China today and even more so in 10 years time. As for Nukes then that would be total destruction for both sides so hardly an option.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Nuke you really have no idea, go visit http://www.globalsecurity.org China has more then a few obsolote Mig19's in 15 years time they are forcasted (with current orders and growth) to have a bigger and better equipped air force (other then stealth) then the US with the latest Migs & Flankers. Add to that the Backfire bombers,AWACS and Tankers which they are purchsing and looking to make under licence.
Try and get your image of China out of the 60's. It's come along way since then even since 90's.
It would be impossible for the US or any nation to win a conventional all out war against China today and even more so in 10 years time. As for Nukes then that would be total destruction for both sides so hardly an option.
...-Gixer
I didn't say they don't have modern stuff. I'm saying the largest portion of planes they have, by far is the J-6 ( Mig 19) of which they have maybe over 2000.
Even today, they have a very primative airforce and navy overall. They are building up a modern force though. Maybe 15 or 20 years they will be a world class force.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
I see you don't quite understand how subs work....All WWI and WWII subs where diesel/electric. Diesel on the surface to charge batteries, and electric to run submerged (No Air to run an internal combustion engine down there. With the advent of nuclear power they can stay submerged indefinately.
The piece that you posted comes with many if's to many for the Chinese to ignore such as
I understand subs perfectly. Maybe you are misunderstanding something. When a diesel/electric submarine goes silent thus engaging the batteries it becomes almost silent. This is in contrast to nuclear subs that have the hum of the reactor.
I am not saying there are pure electric subs I am saying the diesel are diesel/electric as opposed to nuclear subs which are nuclear/electric with no options for shutting the reactor down and still being able to manuever for days on end.
someone asked how the chinese could invade. That link is how it is POSSIBLE.
Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth. Including cluster bombs, anti-ship missiles based on exocet, cruise missiles, Anti-air of their own to shoot down taiwans air force.
I am by no means saying it would be easy but unless the U.S. directly interfered in it I believe china could pull it off.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth.
They do not have everything we have, other than stealth. Not even close. They are considered about 20 years behind the US in military technology.
You are far overesitmating the overall capabilites of the Chinese military today. 15 or 20 years from now, maybe.
-
name something then... oh I did forget they have no carrier but then again you dont really need one when the battle would take place within range of your land airbases
-
Originally posted by Raider179
I understand subs perfectly. Maybe you are misunderstanding something. When a diesel/electric submarine goes silent thus engaging the batteries it becomes almost silent. This is in contrast to nuclear subs that have the hum of the reactor.
I am not saying there are pure electric subs I am saying the diesel are diesel/electric as opposed to nuclear subs which are nuclear/electric with no options for shutting the reactor down and still being able to manuever for days on end.
someone asked how the chinese could invade. That link is how it is POSSIBLE.
Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth. Including cluster bombs, anti-ship missiles based on exocet, cruise missiles, Anti-air of their own to shoot down taiwans air force.
I am by no means saying it would be easy but unless the U.S. directly interfered in it I believe china could pull it off.
Actually it's the props you hear. where we had a large advantage until Mitsubishi sold the technology. But we'll leave that for a different thread.
If a sub doesn't engage it's batteries...it doesn't move??
As I said earlier... to many if's for China to attempt an invasion.
losses would make it not worth the attempt.
-
Gscholtz, and those old MIG-19 frames, like a lot of the Chinese airforce, are reaching the end of their service lives.
To put large numbers up and say China has a capable, modern airforce is not correct.
I wonder if the Chinses could even get all those planes in the air.
Like I said, the majority of China's AF is old, and outdated Mig-19.
I'm not putting down China. They are going to be a superpower but they are not one right now.
-
Poor China, they would have to use their own technology cause of the western weapon enbargo against them.
But don´t be in despair, all that is changing. Soon they will have some Patriots as well.....
You know, you can buy anything with money
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Actually it's the props you hear. where we had a large advantage until Mitsubishi sold the technology. But we'll leave that for a different thread.
If a sub doesn't engage it's batteries...it doesn't move??
As I said earlier... to many if's for China to attempt an invasion.
losses would make it not worth the attempt.
1) "Several mechanisms for noise radiation from the submarine exist, which are more or less prevalent depending on the frequency band, speed and depth of the submarine. Among these mechanisms are hull vibration, power plant equipment, propellers and flow noise (hydrodynamic noise)." its not just propellers
2) not what I said but you can try to change my words...A diesel sub can not go silent without engaging the batteries. Diesels are particulary noisy pieces of equipment.
3) ever heard of an invasion that wasnt full of if's?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
A hundred and fifty Su-27/30/30MKK and 24 MiG-31s + AWACS is not a a "capable, modern airforce" to you Nuke?
Not enough to invade Taiwan and loss half of them in the first week. They would need air superiority for that...and it ain't gonna happen. Which is why we are discussing it on this BB and China has made no moves toward Formosa. As I said earlier they would have moved long ago if there was the slightest possiblity to take Taiwan.
Just what China needs in it's attempt to modernize...an arms race with Taiwan....:rofl
-
Originally posted by GScholz
A hundred and fifty Su-27/30/30MKK and 24 MiG-31s + AWACS is not a a "capable, modern airforce" to you Nuke?
Those are great planes, but compaired to the USAF, Israel, Taiwan, no they do not have a modern AF overall.....yet.
-
Nuke is bolted to his Cloud9. He won't fall, so don't even try it.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
The (only) real advantage of diesel/electric boats over nuke-boats are their capability to shut down everything and literally be invisible to passive sensors.
LOL....I heard a russian sailor on one of there typhoon class subs fart from over 50 miles away. Must of been too much Borsh...:lol
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Sure you did ...
Trust me ....we knew where every single one was...still do.. they are always top priority and are in ASROC or attack sub range. ASROC's are nuclear armed.
-
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nuke is bolted to his Cloud9. He won't fall, so don't even try it.
Actually, I'm discussing things in a reasonable manner. Actually happy to see GS acting resonable towards me too.
People like you are the idiots. You have nothing to add to the discussion and did not refute anything I have said. Instead you pop in with an insult against me.
At least I have the guts to voice my opinions and argue a point.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
1) "Several mechanisms for noise radiation from the submarine exist, which are more or less prevalent depending on the frequency band, speed and depth of the submarine. Among these mechanisms are hull vibration, power plant equipment, propellers and flow noise (hydrodynamic noise)." its not just propellers
2) not what I said but you can try to change my words...A diesel sub can not go silent without engaging the batteries. Diesels are particulary noisy pieces of equipment.
3) ever heard of an invasion that wasnt full of if's?
If a diesel submarine is using diesel power it is on the surface...you don't have to listen for it you can clearly see it. You know...that long gray thing with the conning tower.
China pays careful attention to the if's...there are to many for them to attempt an invasion they would lose far more than they could possibly gain. They are now attempting to modernize. The last thing they need is an arms race with Taiwan.
-
Beat me to it Scholz... and 1 foot by 2 foot tube sticking out of the ocean is a lot harder to spot and I wouldnt imagine the chinese sub commanders going to the surface with enemy ships in the area
Arms race is exactly what they are doing.... Trying to buy backfires from russia and awacs from isreal.
also I think china can afford to lose a few hundred thousand troops storming the beaches...they do have the manpower.
anyone seen any info on chinese paratroops?Do they exist?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes and how many diesels did you track? That was kind of my point you know.
ROTFLMAO...Diesels....dude where have you guys been? One LA class submarine (that's One) has more firepower and destructive capacity aboard than was fired by all sides in four years of world war II. The Typhoon class is the Soviet version. They are both Nuclear (They never surface). The cold war was spent attempting to locate these weapons and should war break out to take them out first. Hence the importance of silence. ( It's how they found each other. We used various means, and it still goes on today. I was being facisous about the fart, just pointing out how sensitive some of it became. We have listening devices in the oceans that constantly monitor the waters and until the typhoon got the technology (with the help of Misubishi) was very noisy.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Weaselsan, how long ago did you serve anyways? The Germans invented the schnorkel during WWII ... everybody has kind of been using them since.
Also, you seem to think we're talking about blue water operation and open sea here. Diesels operate from their coastal hideouts, and strike out to sea when someone comes close enough. The Chinese diesel fleet can pretty much close off the Taiwanese Strait whenever they want.
OHHHHH what a hoot...the Taiwanese are shakeing in their shoes over some absolete diesel subs. I wonder if there aware of how much trouble there in....:rofl
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
ROTFLMAO...Diesels....dude where have you guys been? One LA class submarine (that's One) has more firepower and destructive capacity aboard than was fired by all sides in four years of world war II. The Typhoon class is the Soviet version. They are both Nuclear (They never surface). The cold war was spent attempting to locate these weapons and should war break out to take them out first. Hence the importance of silence. ( It's how they found each other. We used various means, and it still goes on today. I was being facisous about the fart, just pointing out how sensitive some of it became. We have listening devices in the oceans that constantly monitor the waters and until the typhoon got the technology (with the help of Misubishi) was very noisy.
No one is doubting the firepower of a U.S. submarine.
No one is discussing locating nuclear subs so that whole thing is pointless. Nuclear subs are louder than subs running on batteries.
So you do believe America would intervene?
Gotta go watch eagles falcons...I am torn...long time eagles fan but live in atlanta for last couple years. Guess I cant lose either way.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
They do not have everything we have, other than stealth. Not even close. They are considered about 20 years behind the US in military technology.
You are far overesitmating the overall capabilites of the Chinese military today. 15 or 20 years from now, maybe.
actualy they dont need crap like F117 or B2. Since russian invented dope, whitch have similary effect.
Btw you still belive that F117 is some stealth ?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Weaselsan ... what the hell are you talking about? You're completely full of chit!
LA class is not a boomer ... Typhoon is not an attack sub. Please buy a clue, and hang up the phone to God, because he must be smoking pot again.
LOL...never said they where the boomers...they can carry tomohawk land attack missles (nuclear tipped) that alone has more destructive capacity than everything that was fired in four years of WWII. They hunted down the typhoons (It was their job)
What planet you been living on that let's you think some antiquated rusty diesel subs have got the taiwanese Navy worried was what I was wondering.
-
Originally posted by lada
Btw you still belive that F117 is some stealth ?
When have I ever had a discussion about the f117?
Lada, do you have any information to add to this thread or are you just here to be a dumchit, as usual?
-
Originally posted by lada
actualy they dont need crap like F117 or B2. Since russian invented dope, whitch have similary effect.
Btw you still belive that F117 is some stealth ?
You might ask the Iraqis if they saw them coming...
I quess dope was invented to late for Afganistan and the stinger problem that forced the russian airforce to 30,000ft.
-
Czechs had a decentralized radarsystem which was capable to detect "stealth" aircrafts already years ago; I see no reason why Chinese couldn't have similar, or same, system.
-
Lookie here:
http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040517140911.66rouoz5.html
http://www.aeronautics.ru/tamara02.htm
-
Out of all the missions flown by the F-117, only one has ever been "shot" down. And there is no evidence that I have seen pointing to anything other than a lucky occasion.
Maybe the F-117 that was shot down was visualy ID'd for all anyone knows.
I'd say they have a pretty effective combat record. Pluse the F-117 is 70's technology...first generation stealth.
-
Originally posted by Staga
Czechs had a decentralized radarsystem which was capable to detect "stealth" aircrafts already years ago; I see no reason why Chinese couldn't have similar, or same, system.
Maybe they can use it to detect their diesel subs....the taiwanese airforce is defensive,they don't need stealth. They will not be attacking China anytime in the near future.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
When have I ever had a discussion about the f117?
F-117 is considered to be stealth.
I understand, that its hard to find relationship between stealth and F117,B2 whitch i mentioned..... take your time.
hey Staga... Tamara is old outdated system. Czech already invented newer system. It has been developed by same group of people but in their private company.
One of these were supposed to be send to China some year ago or so.
Goverment gave license to export it.
In several days US started to panic and beg Czech goverment to stop that trade. So our private company has been stoped (they canceled their license for export) by our goverment from selling useless passive radar system, whitch is complex system for managing air traffic ...
I love free trade and US`s pathetic need to abandon it. Contemporary goverment whitch damaged private investor [coz system has been already produced] have something like 10% support ammong people. One more year and those idiots will be off.
-
Originally posted by lada
F-117 is considered to be stealth.
I understand, that its hard to find relationship between stealth and F117,B2 whitch i mentioned..... take your time.
And you asked me if I still thought the F-117 was stealth. When did I have that discussion with you?
-
Originally posted by Staga
Lookie here:
http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040517140911.66rouoz5.html
http://www.aeronautics.ru/tamara02.htm
thats exactly what i spoke about
here is web of dveloper
http://www.era.cz/
http://www.era.cz/en/pss-vera-e.shtml
-
lada, in my country we have a name for people like you.
-
Great Lada, kick em out...
We are going to start shipping out some of our Military stuff to China as well, The USA screamed the same way. But,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well, we are neutral and if the Chineese want to buy,,,,,,atleast they can pay for their stuff.
-
Originally posted by patrone
China as well, The USA screamed the same way. But,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well, we are neutered
Next war, you will let others die for you again and not lift a finger, yet you are happy to critisize the countries who have to keep the world safe for you.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
lada, in my country we have a name for people like you.
hehe thats nothing special....
in our country everybody have name as well..
What else do you have in your country ?
[muhehe this person tell me not to post coz its not related to theme LOL ]
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
What planet you been living on that let's you think some antiquated rusty diesel subs have got the taiwanese Navy worried was what I was wondering.
Hey, the did it in Down Periscope. Shouldn't I believe everything Hollywierd says?
-
Doesn't the word "decimate" mean to reduce by one-tenth?
-
Originally posted by Sandman
Doesn't the word "decimate" mean to reduce by one-tenth?
you know just as well as I what it means. Words have many meanings, decided by context
To destroy or kill a large part of (a group). 2. Usage Problem a. To inflict great destruction or damage on: The fawns decimated my rose bushes. b. To reduce markedly in amount:
That's what I meant. And I have not heard anyone who could argue that the US could not decimate China with conventional forces, while being untouchable in the US mainland.
In other words, the US could destroy a large part of China with conventional forces and China could not touch the US mainland.
China is not a superpower. The US is.
In 20 years, China may be a superpower, but now they are not.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes ... diesel subs are no threat to nuke-subs ... that's why the USN is trying to lease a new Swedish boat to train against.
Get a clue.
You must be kidding me,...what could possibly US navy learn from a little country as ours? About Subs? Like the Sterling engine and that new plastic propeller that dos´nt give absolutly a sound away?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Yeah, and the Russian "version" is the Typhoon SSBN ... you are so talking out of your ass.
These look like "antiquated rusty diesel subs" to you?
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/kilo-DNSC9400800.JPG )
Kilo class SSK (Type 636, 3,730t dived)
The submarine can carry up to 18 TEST-71, TEST-96 or 53-65KE wire-guided torpedoes to be fired by 6 torpedo tubes, it may also be fitted with SA-N-8 SAM system as well. More significantly, the third and the fourth boats (366 & 367) are the latest Project 636 model, one of the quietest conventional submarines in the world (~117db). The latest report claimed that China ordered 8 Type 636s to be armed with the new Club-S series (3M54E, range 300km at Mach 0.8) SLCMs from Russia in May 2002, a move considered as China's response to Taiwan's order of 8 diesel subs from US. The contract worths $1.5b and will be fulfilled within 5 years, reflecting PLAN's urgency to build a credible submarine force against potential threats from US and Japanese naval forces.
(http://www.subnetitalia.it/song.jpg)
Type 039 "Song"
This new class of SSG (Type 039, 2,250t dived) was launched in May 1994 but not commissioned until 1998. Although it still retains the stepped conning tower similar to the old Ming/Romeo class, the overall design represents a major step forward compared with the obsolete Ming class. The improvement includes a hydrodynamically sleek profile, new cylindrical bow mounted sonars and German MTU 12V 493 diesel engine. With a large asymmetrical seven-bladed skew propeller, the Song class is much quieter than its predecessor. It has been speculated that Song class is capable of launching modified YJ-8/C-801 ASMs as well as new wire-guided torpedos (Yu-6/Mk-48?) from its 533mm torpedo tubes.
Yes ... diesel subs are no threat to nuke-subs ... that's why the USN is trying to lease a new Swedish boat to train against.
Get a clue.
No No stupid.. the Chinese rusted diesel junk Thats all the old Russian nuclear rusted junk.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
*lol* You are a complete moron! Both those boats are diesel/electrics, and both are in the PLAN (that's the Chinese navy if you didn't know). :rofl
The Chinese are buying rusty Russian Junk. Mostly nuclear. The diesels are useless.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I do not see how the US could achieve that.
really?
You don't think we could bomb China almost at will? Cruise missles, electromagnetic bombs and whatever else we may have.
We could bomb China almost non stop for years if we really needed to, and they couldn't stop it.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I do not see how the US could achieve that.
The U.S. defeated the Soviet Union and never fired a shot...why would we want to attack China. We need China for cheap goods to sell at Wal-mart.
-
I'm not sure how the US would actually land troops in China.
How are the US Navy's ships going to get throught the thousands of anti-shipping missiles the Chinese have. Look at the damage a few Exocets did to the British in the Falklands.
And there is this as well.
"In Millennium Challenge 2002, a $250 million war game designed to test the new technologies and concepts of transformation and network-centric warfare—in which U.S. forces are data-linked with one another as never before—Lt. Gen. Paul Van Riper, former president of the Marine Corps University, was asked to command the "enemy" forces. In the first days of that mock battle, he used unconventional methods, including a preemptive attack that featured air-, sea-, and ground-launched cruise missiles to sink 16 American ships."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wartech/nature.html
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I refuse to believe you are this stupid. You've got to be pulling my chain.
You really.. really believe that those Diesel subs in the Chinese Navy are a concern to the U.S. or Tiawan? I hope the Chinese are that stupid...but their not. Thats why you won't see an attack upon Taiwan. Every thing the Chinese do is based on Fear for there own survival. Once free enterprise takes hold in China they will fall faster than the Soviet Union did.
-
I think we don't see an attack on Taiwan because the world, especially the Pacific rim is beating a path to become thier economic *****.
Here's just one example.
"China hands Canada potential tourism windfall
Last Updated Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:51:19 EST
CBC News
BEIJING - China has recognized Canada as an approved tourism destination – a move that is expected to result in a dramatic increase in the number of Chinese visitors to this country.
...
China is one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and the recognition of Canada as an officially approved travel destination has significant economic potential for the Canadian tourism industry," Industry Minister David Emerson said in a statement from Beijing."
Why go to war with someone when the are doing what you want them to do anyway.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
They want to lease one of your Gotland class SSK's. Very good sub btw.
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20041029-1452.html
Yep, we learned everything we know from the best SUB navy, evar: the one with the "Electro Boots".
-
Originally posted by GScholz
They want to lease one of your Gotland class SSK's. Very good sub btw.
(http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/gotland4.jpg)
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20041029-1452.html
Well at least they will finally find a use for it.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
I think we don't see an attack on Taiwan because the world, especially the Pacific rim is beating a path to become thier economic *****.
Here's just one example.
"China hands Canada potential tourism windfall
Last Updated Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:51:19 EST
CBC News
BEIJING - China has recognized Canada as an approved tourism destination – a move that is expected to result in a dramatic increase in the number of Chinese visitors to this country.
...
China is one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and the recognition of Canada as an officially approved travel destination has significant economic potential for the Canadian tourism industry," Industry Minister David Emerson said in a statement from Beijing."
Why go to war with someone when the are doing what you want them to do anyway.
You got the Idea Thrawn. There will be more Americans at the Great Wall than Disney world.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Ditto. Our Ula class is a joint venture with the Germans (Type 210). Your Gotland is superior though since it has an AIP system. I wonder if we will upgrade our Ula's with that.
I dont think they will, think you will have to buy Swedish made SUBS to get it. Australia has and I am not sure if the system was on the delivred one.
China has been interested to.........
( I am talking about technology that only Sweden and the russians had, after wwII, about SUBS)
-
I agree with the argument that China's military could not currently successfully sustain an operation against an aggressive US offensive, however I don't believe currently the US armed forces could pick China apart at will.
China will be the major regional player conventionally in 10 to 15 years. The large scale modernising of their military (especially the PLA-AF, and PLA-N) will start to bear fruit when most western forces current oncoming block obsolescence would most likely have suffered from budgetary constraints.
Tronsky