Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: eskimo2 on January 22, 2005, 01:04:15 PM
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(http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Ardennes/img/USA-E-Ardennes-1.jpg)
Ohio43’s “Hitler” thread got me thinking about a hypothetical question that I have visited in the past.
The question: If you could go back in to a particular point in time and assassinate Adolf Hitler, would you? If so, what particular point in time would it be worthwhile? (Ignore personal time travel paradoxes)
For me the answer is yes, if before 1938. I think that initially Hitler did an amazing job of building a powerful and a ruthless war machine. The rational, reasonable, moral and outspoken in Germany were silenced. The most cold-blooded were put into positions of power. German technology, production and efficiency shined. Many of Germany’s citizens were proud and motivated.
During the Battle of Britain, however, Hitler started screwing up. (E.G. Bombing London out of retaliation, instead of keeping the pressure on the RAF. Taking on Russia as a second front. Ending advanced weapons development that could not be completed soon enough because he thought the war would be over before they were completed. And so on.)
He made a lot of poor strategic decisions; his desires and emotions outweighed reason.
In my mind, Adolf Hitler became the Allies greatest Ally. I think that if Hitler would have been assassinated around 1940, the Allies would have been in big trouble (assuming that his replacement would have trusted his military advisors more.)
What do you think?
eskimo
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Ration cards for butter and other food since 1936.
State antisemitism well before 1938.
Slaughtering political opponents, ban of the Communit party in 1933.
Looks like this "person" should never been born at all.
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Eskimo, the British SOE set up a plan to assassinate hitler, called operation foxley: -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/killing_hitler_01.shtml
Some documents were declassified not so long ago which was the first people heard about it, BBC made a documentary about it.
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Originally posted by Furball
Eskimo, the British SOE set up a plan to assassinate hitler, called operation foxley: -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/killing_hitler_01.shtml
Some documents were declassified not so long ago which was the first people heard about it, BBC made a documentary about it.
Interesting, "The most plausible date for SOE's assassination of Hitler would have been around 13-14 July 1944."
I guess it would have made sense to kill him at the end of the war as well. He was too much of a fanatic to recognize that Nazi rule was doomed and never would have given up.
I’ll modify my answer, yes if before 1938 or after mid 44.
eskimo
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I really thing that you underestimate Hitler as a factor keeping the country in order, his ability to make speaches etc,etc.
This country was formed in ranks behind him and his thoughts of creating the third riche.
The assasination would have been done in a earlier phase, somewhere around 1935-36. maybe even erlier, to let a new leader fit into the "clothes". Who that would be, for sure not Goring and not Hess, not Himmler, maybe the Sadistic Goebbles could have filled that role.
The rebuilding of germanys military ability was not really a "nazi" doing. It had been done in secret with the help from Soviet (training pilots) Holland (bulding and training Submarines), Sweden ( constructing artillery at bofors) Switzerland (machineguns) long before Hitler came to power.
Given enough time, and by waiting 3-4 more years in starting the war, would have made Germany a real dangerous enemy to the whole world.
But, many of the achivements done by germany technicaly, was done as result of the war, dont forget this.
And to agree with Boroda, better if he never was born at all
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I wouldn't. If you assassinate Hitler, things would play out completely differently.
The moment the bullet kills hitler, there's a good chance you would blink out of existance.
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Who that would be, for sure not Goring and not Hess, not Himmler, maybe the Sadistic Goebbles could have filled that role
The guy who was groomed to re-place Hitler was Reinhard Heydrich. He was assignated In May'42, by British-trained Czech agents.
There's some specualtion that Heydrich was poisoned. He was hit by shrapnel from an anti-tank grenade thrown by Jan Kubiš. The German autopsy states that Heydrich's death was a result of septicemia caused by bacteria and toxins from the bomb splinters. Some suggest that the the bombs contained a bio-toxin to ensure any one even wounded would die.
The Czech agents were pursued by the Germans to a nearby church and committed suicide to avoid capture.
Heydrich was the head of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) of which the SD, the Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen were parts. He was one of the chief architects of the Holocaust and chaired the Wannsee conference.
In 1941 Heydrich was appointed Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and would drive around in an open top vehicle many times by himself. The Brits took advantage of this opportunity and sent in the Czech agents to kill him.
Heydrich was also a pilot. It has been said that he once flew a 109 sortie in the east and was forced down behind enemy lines (eng trouble IIRC).
Some also suggest his political skills were equal to or better then Hitlers. It is also claimed he had gathered material on all the top NSDAP some of it he may have used to his advantage.
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Originally posted by Boroda
ban of the Communit party in 1933.
and that's wrong because?!?!?!
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Originally posted by GScholz
No. Given the opportunity I would not assassinate Hitler. The repercussions would be impossible to predict. We might end up with a world worse off than what we got.
yeah man than we'd have Kane! And tiberium! and Tanya.
and eventually Dune II
;) ;)
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
and that's wrong because?!?!?!
Because Communists were probably the most organised opposition to the regime. You can't overerestimate the role of Communists in anti-nazi underground.
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Boroda, are you being funny on purpose?
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
yeah man than we'd have Kane! And tiberium! and Tanya.
Whats wrong with that?:D
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No spitfiremkv he's still brainwashed no matter how unbelievable that sounds. It's a fact.
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Originally posted by GScholz
No. Given the opportunity I would not assassinate Hitler. The repercussions would be impossible to predict. We might end up with a world worse off than what we got.
Well, we would nt know if the "final solution" ever would be enforced. Might have saved like 6 million jews, but just , might.
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dont you think that picture is a tad too much?
please remove it eskimo
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Boroda, are you being funny on purpose?
No, now just walk away or he'll report you to the kommisar!
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I wouldn't. If you assassinate Hitler, things would play out completely differently.
The moment the bullet kills hitler, there's a good chance you would blink out of existance.
true, but he said to avoid time travel paradoxes, so would you if this werent the case?
myself? i would assasinate dean of the art school that turned him down for training. he couldnt draw people but he may have turned out to have been on hell of a post modern - deconstructionist had they gotten him out of landscape mode.
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id find his grandmother and shoot her.
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Well, Hitler was actually a handsomehunk. If you don't assassinate him intime, someone far smarter and far brighter might have been in control of the whole thing.
The only reason germany lost was because Hitler was as dumb as a rock.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
[B
The only reason germany lost was because Hitler was as dumb as a rock. [/B]
funny, i thought it was because the germans were always looking the other way, and hand grenades more powerfull than howitzer shells...
you dont get to be leader of a country by being du...never mind
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Well, Hitler was actually a handsomehunk. If you don't assassinate him intime, someone far smarter and far brighter might have been in control of the whole thing.
The only reason germany lost was because Hitler was as dumb as a rock.
I like to think the 'far smarter and far brighter' crowd are open to many other things outside of ruling the ignorant or world domination. People like Art Clark, Einstein, Carrot top...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Because Communists were probably the most organised opposition to the regime. You can't overerestimate the role of Communists in anti-nazi underground.
ok.Tonight I am in the mood to play Harry Turtledove. Let's say Hitler was just a bit more lenient and didn't ban the commies. They either take power (not likely), or stay as one powerful opposition. Naturally Hitler would not want to upset them too much, for fear of civil unrest, and so he would stay in good relations with USSR. Not having to attack them, he would not divert his resources to the east, and would manage to conquer England and probably North Africa. The US would not be able to defeat Germany and Japan combined, and most likely it would be attacked by the Soviets as well.
US and their (only) ally Canada will soo be overwhelmed.
Badaboom!
FF a decade and the entire world looks like something out of "1984"
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Theres possibility that germany would've become communistic, if done early and that would've meant at least half of the europe becoming communistic in that case.
Stalin would've annexed baltic countries, including poland and had much easier time at the finnish front. Conquering Finland would've probably meant the same for swedes and danes, maybe also for Norway.
Without a doubt Stalin would want to secure the Baltic sea.
No idea what would've happened with Italy.
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Wasn't this answered in Command and Conquer Red Alert?
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Originally posted by patrone
I really thing that you underestimate Hitler as a factor keeping the country in order, his ability to make speaches etc,etc.
This country was formed in ranks behind him and his thoughts of creating the third riche.
The assasination would have been done in a earlier phase, somewhere around 1935-36. maybe even erlier, to let a new leader fit into the "clothes". Who that would be, for sure not Goring and not Hess, not Himmler, maybe the Sadistic Goebbles could have filled that role.
The rebuilding of germanys military ability was not really a "nazi" doing. It had been done in secret with the help from Soviet (training pilots) Holland (bulding and training Submarines), Sweden ( constructing artillery at bofors) Switzerland (machineguns) long before Hitler came to power.
Given enough time, and by waiting 3-4 more years in starting the war, would have made Germany a real dangerous enemy to the whole world.
But, many of the achivements done by germany technicaly, was done as result of the war, dont forget this.
And to agree with Boroda, better if he never was born at all
The Red Army also taught German tank men, including Manstein.
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Two interesting points, Hitler encouraged the Final Solution but I don't recall anyone finding evidence of him signing off on orders - having said that the people who did develop the idea at Wannsee did so with the intent of pleasing Hitler - ie they wanted to do what Hitler wanted without orders - I don't think killing Hitler during the war would have any effect on the Holocaust.
2nd point which I have read a number of times was that there was talk of killing Hitler - however by the end of 1942 Hitler was making such erratic decisions - North Africa, Stalingrad et al that he caused more damage to the German war effort by being alive rather than being dead.
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Hitler encouraged the Final Solution but I don't recall anyone finding evidence of him signing off on orders - having said that the people who did develop the idea at Wannsee did so with the intent of pleasing Hitler
Thats statement is wrong. There's no need to turnt he AH board into a Holocaust discussion forum. The thread would get locked in 10 sec.
But here is a link to the Axis History Forum's Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=fe4cc966f1262393f7b665a1fcff0b30) forum.
It's a research forum and will find anything you want to know. Use the 'Search' feature frequently and you can educate yourself.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
No spitfiremkv he's still brainwashed no matter how unbelievable that sounds. It's a fact.
Guys, YOU ARE so pathetically brainwashed that there are no brains left.
The good thing - you don't even know it.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Thats statement is wrong. There's no need to turnt he AH board into a Holocaust discussion forum. The thread would get locked in 10 sec.
But here is a link to the Axis History Forum's Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=fe4cc966f1262393f7b665a1fcff0b30) forum.
It's a research forum and will find anything you want to know. Use the 'Search' feature frequently and you can educate yourself.
Talk about brainwashed I was not implying that Hitler was not the cause of the Holocaust, he just wasn't the one who put the nuts and bolts of the plan together and I don't think he ever signed orders to that effect - he probably gave verbal orders but did not incriminate himself - Goring actually did.
Go and be a ******** somewhere else.
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No. We (human race) learns on our own mistakes. If we would not learn lesson back then, it would be 100 times worse in future.
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ive always felt that it is somewhat silly to lay the blame on one figure for all of the bad things that happen in these types of incidents. (holocausts)
that is not to say that hitler isnt responsible. he is.
but so many people were wrapped up in it.
and this isnt the only example. in our own country, slaughter was commonplace on indian folk.
its one of the reasons that i am exceptionally leary of any mass swing to either side of the political spectrum.
its a snowball.
hitler was deeply affected by the conditions of germany following the first world war, as was germany. they got shafted pretty hard by versailles.
so, a part of the blame goes to the original victors and then back and back and back and back. over what? a serbian assasination?
next thing you know, you are talking about an arguement that took place millenia ago.
how do we stop the cycle?
could we?
its as if someone punched someone once and the world has been paying for it since.
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Guys, YOU ARE so pathetically brainwashed that there are no brains left.
ROFL! Haul your bellybutton to a communist state and relearn your history handsomehunk!
Communism is the biggest cancer of the planet, especially in the hands of Stalin and the likes.
You forgot the holocaust Stalin committed within his own country? Gimme a break.
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Would nazi germany have been much diferent without hitler ?
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i think that fascism would have existed.
the conditions were ripe.
hitler might have been named something like wilhelm merkenschmitz or something, but definately.
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Rouge Male good movie staring Peter O'toole trying to kill (s)hitler
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non nazi commercial break.
peter o'toole story i heard once. off topic,
sorry.
he used to hate learning his lines, so in part of one production there was a scene where they handed him a scroll and he would read his lines from it.
someone decided one night to send it out blank
he rolled it out, saw that it was blank and then handed it back and said, "read this to me."
love that story.
(and now back to the hitler channel)
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Originally posted by Schaden
Talk about brainwashed I was not implying that Hitler was not the cause of the Holocaust, he just wasn't the one who put the nuts and bolts of the plan together and I don't think he ever signed orders to that effect - he probably gave verbal orders but did not incriminate himself - Goring actually did.
Go and be a ******** somewhere else.
First your claim above was:
Hitler encouraged the Final Solution but I don't recall anyone finding evidence of him signing off on orders - having said that the people who did develop the idea at Wannsee did so with the intent of pleasing Hitler
Do not change the context of what you said after you get called on it.
Of course he 'signed off on it'. Search 'Führer Order'. Clearly Hitler not only 'signed off' he directed what was to happen. Wannsee wasn't about satisfying Hitlers anti-Jewishness so he would be 'happy'. Search that forum for 'Wannsee'...
First, why would you think Hitler would have any interest in receiving incriminating documents about 'nuts and bolt' details, as long as he knew that the Jews were being killed?
What signed document have you seen with Himmler's or Göring's signature that explicitly calls for the extermination of the Jews?
The evidence against Hitler is clear. It's contained it the many 'euphemisms' in various documents and orders. His intentions are explained through many eye witnesses and in the minutes and diaries of his underlings. Hitler wasn't blind to the 'nuts and bolts' of what was going on and did more then just 'encourage' the Holocaust. It was perpetrated directly on his behalf.
He didn't need to sit in the meetings that planned out the 'nuts and bolts'. That's not how things work in government. He delegates and the 'nuts and bolts' get worked out by proper departments (see Wannsee etc..).
Go to that forum and start educating yourself. In fact an active post on the first page of that forum is entitled:
Primary Evidence about Hitler (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=69432&sid=88130c695d1a5c2cd8a29e7acfe46903)
If you post things that are wrong people will correct you. If that offends you then stfu and don't post stupid ****.
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Why not go back further and wipe out Gavrilo Pricep, then there's the possibility that WWI didn't happen (highly unlikely as the european countries were already gearing up for war).
If the first world war never occured then the conditions that allowed Hitler and the facists to rise to power in Germany or Italy wouldn't be there.
The Germans (especially the army) thought they had been sold out by the high command/government at the time and they had not really been defeated in WWI.
The Italians were miffed that they were fighting against Germany in WWI but they were overlooked on the whole in the peace process that occured aftwards, they were expecting that some of the German overseas colonies would be ceded to them.
There were other factors involved I know but that would take a book in itself to explore all the reasons but the outcome of WWI was a major factor.
There's also the possibility that communism would fail to take hold in Russia.
Then again as stated earlier you would be changing a known quantity for the unknown and the World Wars with all their horrors were turning points in world history that I believe was for the betterment of mankind as a whole.
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very clever troll, go clean your catch. kudos eskimblo you truly are a master. :D
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Originally posted by storch
very clever troll, go clean your catch. kudos eskimblo you truly are a master. :D
Why is this a troll? Was Hitler a detriment to the Third Reich once he got the ball rolling? Clearly debatable, but not an absurd question. In fact, in spite of some good discussions brought up, I still stand firm that Hitler was more of a detriment to the Third Reich after 1938 than he was a help. An exception being the very end of the war; if he would have died, perhaps Germany would have surrendered earlier and saved thousands of lives on all fronts.
eskimo
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Thank you for a good post, Eskimo
Taking Hitler out after starting the War, might have shortened it, yes. But it might have made it even longer.
The plan to get revange on the WW1 winners, was formed, long before Hitler took Power. Infact, if the Generals would´nt have been behind him, his "coup" after the fire of the Reichstag, would have ended very abrupt.
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IMHO its good that all assassination attempts against Hitler failed.
If he would have been killed years or months before he had to commit suicide, then today many of these neo-nazi scum would say "If these traitors wouldnt have killed our beloved Fuehrer, he would have brought us the Endsieg with his Wunderwaffen."
But so - all had to see how Hitler failed and finally died miserably by killing himself in Berlin after all was lost.
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Originally posted by JB88
i think that fascism would have existed.
the conditions were ripe.
hitler might have been named something like wilhelm merkenschmitz or something, but definately.
as far as I know, the only fascist regime was Musolini's. 'Fascism', from the word 'fascia' , which I thing means faction, correct me if I'm wrong, is a term that can be applied only to Italy.
bottomline: NAZI and FASCIST cannot be used interchangeably.
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Boroda, you're right.
That SOB would better never have been born at all.
Or, alternitively, getting into art school and being stuck with painting....
(Churchill was still a better painter, hehe)
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No, Hitler had a lot of smart people under him. They got Germany as far as it did during that war. If someone said something he didn't like, they wouldn't wake up the next morning.
So that means that if Hitler didn't do what he did, someone else would have and they would have done it much better.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Would you risk six billion lives to save 6 million? We live in a world where nuclear weapons have existed for 60 years, yet only used in anger twice.
WWII came at the exact right moment in human history. We learned the horrors of modern warfare without completely destroying ourselves.
it was WW2 that allowed(funded) research to build a nuclear bomb in the first place.
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Wrong, nuclear research was happening whether there was a war or not.
Germans were the actual first ones to start the major research, but Hitler was an bellybutton towards the scientists, so they worked slower on purpose.
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Yes, I think that you are correct in what you are saying, Laser.
But you can not really judge Germany, whitch industry was under constant bombing, for trying to make things that actully worked.
The A-bomb was kinda fictional until Hiroshima, really.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
ROFL! Haul your bellybutton to a communist state and relearn your history handsomehunk!
Communism is the biggest cancer of the planet, especially in the hands of Stalin and the likes.
You forgot the holocaust Stalin committed within his own country? Gimme a break.
Ignorance is power. My congratulations.
Brainless TV crap consumers like you are the biggest cancer of the planet.
Keep telling me and Gena about "evil communist state". You are funny.
Interesting cultural phenomenon: every illiterate truck-driver from across the ocean tells me revelations about my country and gets offended when I say that maybe it's a good idea to ask me about my country, my history and my life!
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Communists? What communists? There hardly are any to be found.
But Fascists and neo Nazis are there sadly....
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ignorance is power. My congratulations.
Brainless TV crap consumers like you are the biggest cancer of the planet.
Keep telling me and Gena about "evil communist state". You are funny.
Interesting cultural phenomenon: every illiterate truck-driver from across the ocean tells me revelations about my country and gets offended when I say that maybe it's a good idea to ask me about my country, my history and my life!
hey, leave Boroda alone. he was never oppressed cause his family was probably high up in the party hierarchy. People like that had everything they wanted, imported from the west, big houses, their own hotels-heck, their own resorts, and never had to live in fear or poverty.
so, from his POV, the Soviet Union was heaven on earth. of course, as a good communist, he doesn't believe in heaven ;)
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Communism is a good ideal. But it's just that, an ideal. It doesn't work.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
hey, leave Boroda alone. he was never oppressed cause his family was probably high up in the party hierarchy. People like that had everything they wanted, imported from the west, big houses, their own hotels-heck, their own resorts, and never had to live in fear or poverty.
so, from his POV, the Soviet Union was heaven on earth. of course, as a good communist, he doesn't believe in heaven ;)
Is it mandatory for you, Western people, to repeat all this braincrap about USSR?
You know nothing about my country. Please, admit it and stop telling all this nonsence.
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Bo, I know about life under communist regimes. I'm not talking out of my bellybutton here. I also know that a lot of your countrymen miss those days when the world was afraid of the USSR.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
hey, leave Boroda alone. he was never oppressed cause his family was probably high up in the party hierarchy. People like that had everything they wanted, imported from the west, big houses, their own hotels-heck, their own resorts, and never had to live in fear or poverty.
so, from his POV, the Soviet Union was heaven on earth. of course, as a good communist, he doesn't believe in heaven
You should have never have hit the "Reply Button" on this one.
Boroda never slammed the US? So why make fun of him by saying "the Soviet Union was heaven on Earth"? Let alone call him a Communist? It's his country it IS his "heaven on Earth", just like the US is mine.
You are chickenchit Spitfire, just plain chickenchit.
Karaya
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All I know is Communism = my hard work redistributed to other people.
If the above is false, I'm all ears for proper correction. I wouldn't want that nor would want someone else's rewards given to me.
You get what you earn, no more, no less.
Otherwise, **** you, and **** anything left of neutral.
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ayn rand couldnt have said it better.
:rolleyes:
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Hey Boroda I know several russians. I've even arrested a couple for shoplifting.
I've been to russia on a roadtrip.
I KNOW. Through my own eyes.
So yes, I say you're delusional.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Bo, I know about life under communist regimes. I'm not talking out of my bellybutton here. I also know that a lot of your countrymen miss those days when the world was afraid of the USSR.
Then You tell beautifull nonsence about things you "know". "high up in the party hierarchy"! You speak like you repeat fantasies of Clansy or Turtledove.
It's just as if I was saying something like "Spitfiremkv doesn't know anything about problems of ordinary Americans, he must be a capitalist, so he has black slaves and never had to work himself".
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Originally posted by Wotan
The guy who was groomed to re-place Hitler was Reinhard Heydrich. He was assignated In May'42, by British-trained Czech agents.
There's some specualtion that Heydrich was poisoned. He was hit by shrapnel from an anti-tank grenade thrown by Jan Kubiš. The German autopsy states that Heydrich's death was a result of septicemia caused by bacteria and toxins from the bomb splinters. Some suggest that the the bombs contained a bio-toxin to ensure any one even wounded would die.
The Czech agents were pursued by the Germans to a nearby church and committed suicide to avoid capture.
Heydrich was the head of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) of which the SD, the Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen were parts. He was one of the chief architects of the Holocaust and chaired the Wannsee conference.
In 1941 Heydrich was appointed Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and would drive around in an open top vehicle many times by himself. The Brits took advantage of this opportunity and sent in the Czech agents to kill him.
Heydrich was also a pilot. It has been said that he once flew a 109 sortie in the east and was forced down behind enemy lines (eng trouble IIRC).
Some also suggest his political skills were equal to or better then Hitlers. It is also claimed he had gathered material on all the top NSDAP some of it he may have used to his advantage.
The Allies' official propaganda till this day says that Heydrich's "septicemia" was caused by the particles of the seat stuffing (horse's hair, metal wires, and other 'stuff').
The premeditated bio-toxin poisoning version of the events seems to be less likely for us today. Josef Gabchik (pardon my spelling), a Slovak, served in the Chechoslovak army from April 1932 till October 1938 reaching the rank of Sergeant. {an official gap here}. Demobilized after the Munich crisis, he worked at the military chemical plant where he was the keeper of the mustard gas stock. {again an official gap here} In March 1939, fearing the German occupation, he fled to Poland. But not before destroying all the mustard gas stock by adding acid to it. {and again an official gap here} In August 1939 he and 435 other emigrants were evacuated to France, where Gabchik joined the Foreign Legion, and later was transferred to the Chech division in Sete. He distinguished himself in the battle at Marne {NB} "while serving with the machine-gun unit". {NB : not 'in' the machine-gun unit} Gabchik was the original first-pick member of the duo assigned to carry out the operation "Antropoid" (assasination of Heydrich). The bombs for the operation "Antropoid" were specially designed by Major Clark, an expert in explosives. The bombs looked more like the anti-tank device resembling small gas tanks in the wrappings. Before throwing such a bomb it was necessary to unscrew the bakelite lid, and remove the safety.
Gabchik and Kubish (pardon my spelling) parachuted east of Plsen at 02:24 on December 29, 1941. But the assasination itself was conducted only on May 27, 1942. It was Gabchik who insisted that they should go ahead with the operation "Antropoid". Which gives us five months of the bio-toxin 'life'.
If anybody knows the effective life-spans of different bio-toxins, we can probably nail-down the toxic agent that killed Heydrich, if such was the case. :confused:
P.S. The paratroopers were hiding in the church attic and basement till June 18. When surrounded by SS troops, the three paratroopers in the attic (including Kubish) fought the SS men for two hours, and the four other paratroopers in the basement repulsed the SS attacks (including tear gas) for six hours. Only after they ran out of ammunition for their pistols did they committed the suicide.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ignorance is power. My congratulations.
Brainless TV crap consumers like you are the biggest cancer of the planet.
Keep telling me and Gena about "evil communist state". You are funny.
Interesting cultural phenomenon: every illiterate truck-driver from across the ocean tells me revelations about my country and gets offended when I say that maybe it's a good idea to ask me about my country, my history and my life!
Boroda, please take into account that these truck-drivers passed the written test for their driving licenses. So, your epithet "illiterate" may be only a half-truth, because the guys can read. Some of them can also type.
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ignorance is power. My congratulations.
Brainless TV crap consumers like you are the biggest cancer of the planet.
Keep telling me and Gena about "evil communist state". You are funny.
Interesting cultural phenomenon: every illiterate truck-driver from across the ocean tells me revelations about my country and gets offended when I say that maybe it's a good idea to ask me about my country, my history and my life!
I have to say Boroda, you speak beautiful English.
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Originally posted by Furball
I have to say Boroda, you speak beautiful English.
Actually, 'beautiful' describes the conjugated form of the infinitive verb 'to speak' rather than the noun 'English'. 'Beautiful' in this case is used as an adverb and therefore should be written or spoken in the adverb form, ie. with the attached suffix 'ly'.
It would be gramatically correct to write, 'You speak English beautifully' rather than your 'you speak beautiful English.' However as this is a written rather than a spoken forum, it would be factually more correct if you complimented is writing rather than his spoken word.
Superiorly* yours,
Holden
*;)
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it would be factually more correct if you complimented [h]is writing rather than his spoken word.
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I was correcting grammar, not checking typos.
mea culpa:)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Actually, 'beautiful' describes the conjugated form of the infinitive verb 'to speak' rather than the noun 'English'. 'Beautiful' in this case is used as an adverb and therefore should be written or spoken in the adverb form, ie. with the attached suffix 'ly'.
It would be gramatically correct to write, 'You speak English beautifully' rather than your 'you speak beautiful English.' However as this is a written rather than a spoken forum, it would be factually more correct if you complimented is writing rather than his spoken word.
Superiorly* yours,
Holden
*;)
i nevar sed i speak bootiful english, i says he does!
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Beautiful english or not, if you need a real eye-opener try taking your vehicle through the country.
I guarantee you it will be a memory for a lifetime. It is really, really hard to grasp the reality in an (ex) communist state untill you actually pass the border and face the decadence.
Extreme to extreme. Door handles with ruby tips the size of golfballs on the other side of the street and punched out broken asphalt, 50 year old park benches that have never been cleaned or repaired and building walls black from filth, stripped as high as a human hand can reach on the other side. And that's just the modern enviroment of the city!
Face villages with buildings in pre-ww2 stage. Half collapsed roofs, chipping sunbleached paint, busted out picket fences - and that's just the better houses still in use.. Horsecarriages at regular use in the year of 2005. Burned buildings abandoned. They don't demolish them, they just sit there like bad teeth with black charcoal holes for windows.
After the initial shock I could just watch in awe as we passed by. We were a company guided by a friend who worked in russia and had experience in travelling in the country so we didn't use travel agencies or stick to tourist routes. No, we went in places that regular tourists will never see. I made a firm promise to myself to never return if I ever made it back from that trip in one piece.
I did and the promise hasn't been broken. Maybe that sheds some light on my view of the things. Maybe Boroda can now come and tell me 'it's not how it looks like!' :cool:
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Beautiful english or not, if you need a real eye-opener try taking your vehicle through the country.
I guarantee you it will be a memory for a lifetime. It is really, really hard to grasp the reality in an (ex) communist state untill you actually pass the border and face the decadence.
Extreme to extreme. Door handles with ruby tips the size of golfballs on the other side of the street and punched out broken asphalt, 50 year old park benches that have never been cleaned or repaired and building walls black from filth, stripped as high as a human hand can reach on the other side. And that's just the modern enviroment of the city!
Face villages with buildings in pre-ww2 stage. Half collapsed roofs, chipping sunbleached paint, busted out picket fences - and that's just the better houses still in use.. Horsecarriages at regular use in the year of 2005. Burned buildings abandoned. They don't demolish them, they just sit there like bad teeth with black charcoal holes for windows.
After the initial shock I could just watch in awe as we passed by. We were a company guided by a friend who worked in russia and had experience in travelling in the country so we didn't use travel agencies or stick to tourist routes. No, we went in places that regular tourists will never see. I made a firm promise to myself to never return if I ever made it back from that trip in one piece.
I did and the promise hasn't been broken. Maybe that sheds some light on my view of the things. Maybe Boroda can now come and tell me 'it's not how it looks like!' :cool:
Boroda has nothing to do with the things you saw. On the contrary, Boroda and millions of other "bad" guys were building those things 50 years ago. What you saw is the result of the USA victory over the Soviet Union in the Cold War. BTW, President Gorbachev was the top-most Communist. Can you say that he was a bad guy? And there were millions of the communists like him. But the USSR government (even during Gorbachev's 'perestroika' and 'glasnost') was forced to spend too much on the weapons instead of butter. Thanks to the overzealous American administrations. It was not enough for the "good" guys to win in the Cold War. They felt obliged to cut the throat of the already defeated enemy.
So, what you saw was not the result of harsh communist rule, as you are told to think. These are the sunbleached blood stains of your victory.
If you want to learn more, just search for the information on the average life-span of the people of the Eastern Europe, former Soviet Republics in particular. You'll be amazed when you learn that the life expectancy in some regions dropped from 65-70 years (Soviet era) to only 55 years (for males). Really, this is the freedom and democracy brought on the tips of the bayonettes.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
ok.Tonight I am in the mood to play Harry Turtledove. Let's say Hitler was just a bit more lenient and didn't ban the commies. They either take power (not likely), or stay as one powerful opposition. Naturally Hitler would not want to upset them too much, for fear of civil unrest, and so he would stay in good relations with USSR. Not having to attack them, he would not divert his resources to the east, and would manage to conquer England and probably North Africa. The US would not be able to defeat Germany and Japan combined, and most likely it would be attacked by the Soviets as well.
US and their (only) ally Canada will soo be overwhelmed.
Badaboom!
FF a decade and the entire world looks like something out of "1984"
The most unlikely scenario is the USSR joining Japan and Germany in their attack on the USA in early 40's.
Spitfire, you are spitting here the venom of the Cold War, which happened to occur some time later than the events you are talking about. :p
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Originally posted by genozaur
But the USSR government (even during Gorbachev's 'perestroika' and 'glasnost') was forced to spend too much on the weapons instead of butter. Thanks to the overzealous American administrations.
Yes, in the same way that a policeman forces a terrorist to shoot a hostage.
Don't they teach the subject of recognition of fallacies of logic in propoganda in school anymore?
BTW, the people of the east bloc countries, including the russians, won the cold war.
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The History Channel did a good program on British efforts to assassinate Hitler. Toward the end of the war, [perhaps even before the abortive 7/44 attempt] the conclusion was reached that having him in power making irrational decisions meant a faster defeat for Germany than having anyone else in his place. If Rommel, say, had replaced Hitler, in July of '44, the war might have lasted years longer (with even greater cost in lives), and Germany might have been able to negotiate some sort of terms.
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Originally posted by Rasker
The History Channel did a good program on British efforts to assassinate Hitler. Toward the end of the war, [perhaps even before the abortive 7/44 attempt] the conclusion was reached that having him in power making irrational decisions meant a faster defeat for Germany than having anyone else in his place. If Rommel, say, had replaced Hitler, in July of '44, the war might have lasted years longer (with even greater cost in lives), and Germany might have been able to negotiate some sort of terms.
Rommel was too good a soldier not to understand that the war had been already lost. So, with Rommel in power the war wouldn't continue as long as it did with Hitler.