Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Naudet on November 14, 2001, 02:07:00 AM
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I need some urgent help with high altittude fighting.
Lately i started to rise my usuall combat area alt from 12-15k to 18+k.
Especially when above 20K i have some bad probs when fighting an opponent. Maybe i to much use the low to mid alt vertikal moves.
My usuall ride is the FW190D9.
How does a fight at 20+k work?
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Simply put, it's a fine line between who can maintain the highest speed while turning the tightest turn radius.
Tumor
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The Dora's performance will fall off at alt, but not as bad as some others and it has great power and climb to begin with. Check the speed/climb charts at altitude for a general idea of how the plane will perform. http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/models.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/models.html)
I wouldn't call 18k high alt! :D Try out a P-47 sometime... it's super-charger system doesn't fall off at altitude as much as the gear driven turbo-charger planes do. The Jug really starts to shine up that high. If you are a 190 fan, try out the Ta152. Sure, it's a perk plane, but it's the best high-altituded fighter in the LW stable of prop planes.
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I'm not a good pilot, but there are some things I've noticed while fighting at high alts. The air is thin over 20k, and the plane picks up speed much quicker than when you would be fighting under 15k. A slight dive of 1000~2000 feet will usually send the fighters with high speed capability (G10s.. Doras.. and especially the Mustang!) soaring over 380mph easily.
Also, while speed picks up faster, the controls lock up easier.. I usually fly the G6 and G10, and experiencing heavy controls under combat conditions is not uncommon. I think this is why planes such as P-47s and P-51s are superb.. They are just as fast as most LW fighters, but high speed control remains very stable even near compression point :).
High alt fights are almost all about speed and roll, rarely does pure 'turn rate' come into consideration.. how one manages to keep his speed optimum, while still controlling the plane enough to roll inside the enemy(thus, the 'rolling scissors fight') comes more important.. just like Tumor put it. And at this point.. the Mustangs and Thunderbolts shine out.. So does Dora up to a point, but the roll rate seems to drop slower when they fly over 400 mph.
The scary part is, the P-51s have their uncanny ability to bring the flaps into action.. giving a sudden edge over planes such as Dora or G-10.
And, like I said, I'm just an average pilot. Therefore, this is where flying G-10s become uncomfortable for me... especially when one faces Mustangs up high. Therefore, I try to keep the fight all vertical, only reliable factor being the superior climb rate. Just pass pass pass around and eventually gain higher alt than those 47s and 51s.. just like some people mock about :D - I just pendulum around.
I understand things would be different with planes with better high speed control such as 190D-9s, P-51s and P-47s. I haven't flown the Dora enough to find out, but I'm betting there is more of 'action' when fighting up high, than flying G-10s. Probably more agressive roll fights occur. (Just the kind of fight a 109 would hate to get in :) )
Also, another thing I noticed is, when fighting at high alts, you can't regain alt as fast as you do at low alts. If I dove a G-10 from 15k to 5k, I could rocket up back to 15k and still have enough control and speed with my plane to continue the climb with shallow pitch.. but if I dove from 27k to 20k, I climb back to about 24~25k and already my plane is near stall point. So, high alt fights are usually down hill fights. Fights among more skilled pilots would be a shallow down hill, while fights among average people like me is a deep down hill slalom :D
And, final factor I've noticed is, high alt fights either a) end very quickly, or b) end up with no winners. First 5~10 passes or so and who is more advantageous becomes clear, and the disadvantaged pilot chooses to run. Jut dive to nearby friendly base end the fight is over. Of course, both P-47s and 51s are able to catch runners in pure terms, but rarely do they do so risking losing their alt and quickly being surrounded by other planes nearby.
:) Hope this piece of info helped.
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It might be true in books and RL that the Ta-152-H1 was THE high altitude fighter - but sadly not in AH.
I've flown the Ta-152 quite a bit when it came out and it never was that wonder plane at high alt. Remember an occasion where a Spit followed me up to 35k+, closing distance slowly and happily outmanouvering me at that alt! From my experience the 152 is a good dogfighter through all alts. Not shining sub-orbital and not failing low. You can easily outmanouver a F4U (C or D) on the deck.
Back on topic:
IMO the Dora is a superbe fighter at around 20k - especially against its arch-rival, the La7. The key in high alt fighting is judging E. It's not about gaining angles quickly. High alt fights tend to spread out wide due to the higher speeds - escpecially in the D9 use its great zoom to slowly built an E advantage and go vertical to keep pressure on the con. Try to sucker him into a rope-and-dope; dive if the tables turn. As long as you got 5k beneath you you are untouchable in a Dora.
Of course this is all theory - and once fixed on a tgt it's hard to withstand the urge to pull on him... :D
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A couple of the posts here surprise me (proviso: I'm not a LW flyer in AH); as from historial accounts I definately get the impression that the FW was used as a hi alt buff buster due to it's weapon pack, while the 109 was clearly the more nimble airframe at high alt - at least going by contemporary reports.
Indeed, I've gathered the impression through general reading that the higher one goes, the more marked the 109's superiority *as a fighter* should be over the 190.
Is this not the case?
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Originally posted by Seeker:
Indeed, I've gathered the impression through general reading that the higher one goes, the more marked the 109's superiority *as a fighter* should be over the 190.
Is this not the case?
It is the case. According to the performance charts in the AH help file, it is the case here, too.
- Oldman
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That is the case in some way :), but in others, it is not. The potential weakness of heavy controls at high speeds are greater than one can imagine. Yes, the 109 is the more reliable fighter than 190s at high alts - in the way it was designed to be: namely, supressing other planes out of the fight, protecting the 190s effectively until it reached its target.
It is not a highly aggressive 'hunter/killer'.. such as P-51s or even Spitfires.. rather, the image of 'guardian' comes into my mind.
As I mentioned, a 1500 feet zero-G dive at altitude of 25K puts planes like 109G10 or P-51Ds over 400 mph easily. High alt fights are fights of very wide range and massive speed, and it is there the 109s are so uncomfortable. 109s are not bad in maneuverability in speeds between 350mph and 400 mph.. and as texts mention, it is highly responsive. But speeds over that, where other fighters remain stable, 109 pilots such as myself have to grit teeth. :D
Even after one gains an advantage over planes such as P-51s or P-47s, choosing to follow it is most likely treacherous. Whereas 190s can 'go the distance' for the kill, most often 109s cannot.
Someone mentioned in this BBS that "109s are rapiers. Quickly in, quickly out", and I find it very true. In tricking a guy into a wrong vertical move and ending the fight quickly 109s are superb... but if experienced fighters choose to run, 109s don't have much to do. If you can't 'get in quick, and get out quick', 109s lose all their potential.
Thus, after first few passes, if a 51 pilot chooses to zero-G dive to 500 mph... I can't do anything.
I'm sure more experienced pilots as St.Santa or Grunherz has other stories to tell, but at least, that is the impression I get as a fledgling-mediocre LW guy :D
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Naudet, beware fighting high with D9, even a SpitV will outturn, outclimb, outaccelerate and outrun you at more than 25k.
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??? Mandoble you are kidding right???
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/190d9speed.gif) (http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/spit5speed.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/190d9climb.gif) (http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/spit5climb.gif)
[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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You're not counting spin/augers, are you Swampy? :)
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I love the high alt fight :) It has a flow and rythm that is totally different than what you typically see in Aces High.
First off, you can forget the pure vertical moves. Now don't get me wrong, you should still use three dimensions, for instances using high Yo-Yo's and low Yo-Yo's. But if you start trying to use loops at 25K, your doing it wrong.
I really don't know what advice to give, other than to agree with Tumor, that its more of an art of figuring out how to conserve E while maintaining the tightest turn radius. A very fine line.
Oh, and the Dora being bad at high altitude? Are you nuts?!?!? ;)
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Funked by the charts both Dora and spitV climb the same at 25K about 2Kmin... Whats ur point?
Plus why the hell doesnt Dora do its 453Mph top speed with the MW50? The common 428Mph figure is WITHOUT MW50!!! toejam either the Dora doesnt model MW50 or its a serious mistake in speed. But surely 25Mph too slow is being called a big mistake is hyperbole.... WTH is going on here?
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The hardest part for me in a high alt fight is getting disoriented. AH puts you in a visbility 'bubble'. The higher you go, the less ground you see.
I find myslef diving looking for the horizon, loosing a lot of alt blowing any kind of edge I might've had. Don't get to practice high alt stuff often (20k+).
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Grunherz:
Funked by the charts both Dora and spitV climb the same at 25K about 2Kmin... Whats ur point?
My point is that Mandoble's statement is false. D-9 in fact will outclimb Spit V at 25k and is ~60 mph faster. People read this forum for advice, and allowing incorrect statements like Mandoble's to stand would be a disservice to those who wish to learn about AH.
As for 453 mph D-9 I have never heard of such a thing. If it is true then you should provide HTC with evidence to that effect.
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Back on topic:
Naudet at 20k+ almost all of the aircraft are losing power. So you have less excess power which means less climb rate and less ability to sustain a high-g turn.
Also because of the thin air, your minimum turning radius becomes significantly larger. In a plane like the D-9, which has a very high wingloading and a large turn radius at sea level, the turning radius becomes HUGE.
So the pace of the fight becomes slower, and you have to be very gentle on the controls in order to avoid wasting your excess power.
And when planning a turn, you have to remember that you will need a lot more room to make the turn than at low altitudes. If at sea level you need to be 2.5k in front of a bandit to make a reversal, you might need to be 4.0k in front of him at high altitude.
Try to use very simple tactics. If the enemy is above you or faster, don't attack. Build your speed and hit and run. If the enemy is lower, attack him agressively, but if you pull up to zoom, remember to do it very gently because you can't waste too much power on induced drag.
Also remember there are some very deadly planes at high alitudes.
P-47 and P-38 have turbos which means they have the same power at ~30k than they do at sea level! They can outclimb almost any plane near 30k.
Also the Spit IX modeled in AH uses a high-altitude version of the Merlin with a two-stage supercharger., which means it is still powerful at 25k+ when most planes are gasping for air. And the low wingloading means they still have a pretty good turn radius at that height.
P-51's use the same basic engine as the Spit IX and are also deadly at altitude.
F4U and Hellcat also have two-stage superchargers which means they don't lose much power at altitude also.
N1K2-J and all the Soviet fighters have single-stage supercharged engines with quite low rated altitudes, so they become turds at high altitude. If you keep the airspeed above your best climb speed and don't turn too much you can build an energy advantage against them very quickly.
[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Ah...
so THAT's how those Spits simply sneer at high alt fighters like Ta-152H...
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But funked the dora wont outclimb the SpitV at 25K, look at the charts YOU POSTED their climb is identical if FW190D9 uses WEP. And in fact if the FW190D9 doesnt use WEP or is out the SpitV has a nice climb rate advantage of about 300-400 fpm which it can maintain with or without WEP as its 2 curves are identical.
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funked the dora wont outclimb the SpitV at 25K
Print it out and get a ruler or something. They are pretty dang close even if there is no WEP for the Dora. Considering Dora WEP time approaches infinity it seems unlikely. :)
[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Grunherz, about the speed on the Dora:
453mph is the speed the D12/13 reached but not the D9.
In an original Factory chart, the highest speed was 440mph with C3 fuel Sondernotleistung (Special Emergency Power), @4270KG with ETC504. without ETC5004 speed would be 445mph-448mph.
The MW50 D9 in that chart, was about 437 mph, using B4 fuel, MW50 injection and Ladedrucksteigerungsüstsatz, @4270KG with ETC504. Without ETC504 speed would be 442mph-444mph.
I am still trying to figure out if there was also a setting using C3fuel, MW50 and Ladedrucksteigerung. This Bird would come close to 450mph, if it existed.
Addin: BTW the AH D9 does about 432mph TopSpeed, but till now neither HT or Pyro answered what D9 we actually have in AH :(
[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Naudet ]
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High alt fights. Mostly hate them. The performance of the A5 just drops off so sharply.
In a Ta-152, there's little better. But, lacking high enemies, I've found that dogfighting in close, with T&B elements works remarkably well at all altitudes. Spits, N1K's, F4u's - I've surprised more than a few of them by flying the Ta-52 very aggressively and very low.
The 109 at hi speed is awful. But, if an enemy dives and runs for it, just get into a shallow dive, then level out when speed gets high. For a while, he'll outrun you. Eventually, the speed gained from the dive will start to fade away. Then you pounce - you'll most likely missed your first pass, since you have little control. Go aggressively into the vertical, pulling high g's (if the enemy is significantly slower than you), and then play the 109 game.
Haven't flown the G10 in a long while. It isn't the best plane for furballs - but there's nothing I'd rather be in in a 2v2, 2v3, 2v4 or 2v5. With a competent wingman fighting unorganized enemies, it is possible to win a fight like a 2v5 in the G10.