Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Golfer on January 30, 2005, 03:49:35 AM
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Because we helped bring about the first free elections in Iraq in over 50 years. I am honestly pleased to hear of relatively minor, and mostly unsuccessful suicide attacks. This is partly due to the restriction placed on no vehicle use for today, which was to impede the use of car bombs.
Whether or not we should have gone in is no longer relevant, there is also no question that we will be going out just as soon as some stability comes to the area brought forth by the freely elected government.
I am very optimistic about the future of Iraq and I am proud to be an American today. I am proud of the boys and girls who gave their lives for this day. I am proud of the boys and girls still over there ensuring the safety of the Iraqi people as best they can.
(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0e/01/20050130014309990003)
(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0d/05/20050130014109990001)
(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/05/04/20050130014009990001)
I am glowing on the inside now, and today I will walk a little taller because this is a major step in bringing freedom and democracy to a region that has known only war for entirely too long.
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a nicely done tribute for the troops (http://www.clermontyellow.accountsupport.com/flash/UntilThen.swf)
no matter what our thoughts on the war...its they who have to face it.
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America and Allies, maybe not the best methods but the results seem more than satisfactory.
for now...
LMAO at that old woman in your pics :rofl
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As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.
Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.
What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.
But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had and the actual findings from 2003 to the present means that next time we're in a situation where a country poses a threat to western security, the pres./PM/CIA/MI6 are going to have an uphill struggle to convince the public of the need to go to war. Originally posted by Golfer
Whether or not we should have gone in is no longer relevant
I don't agree that the mere passage of time renders a monumental decision to launch a major war campaign "irrelevant".
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well said.
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Originally posted by beet1e
As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.
Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.
What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.
But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had and the actual findings from 2003 to the present means that next time we're in a situation where a country poses a threat to western security, the pres./PM/CIA/MI6 are going to have an uphill struggle to convince the public of the need to go to war. I don't agree that the mere passage of time renders a monumental decision to launch a major war campaign "irrelevant".
The WMD thingy has been run completely in the ground. It nears the point of hilarity to me every time this is brought up. The WMDs were and probably some still are. Like was stated they have been used by this country before.
You think the chemical warhead containers were for the purpose of delivering candy, pinata style to the kids? Geez.
What about the "Big Gun" laucher that was disasembled? It wasn`t for a huge fireworks display as a present for surrounding countries.
If you wanna get into "the next time" type scenario I think maybe if this becomes a factor in the future it would be wise not to do everything but send UPS deliveries door to door stating our exact plans including times, method and locations that are going to be covered. CNN and others should be limited to the press room, especialy in the early portion of any new campaign.
I`m proud of the action taken by our military leaders despite the sniveling and whimpering of the "Don`t upset our gravy train" countries and the panty waist leaders of such.
I am proud to see the U.S. get back on tracks and to see a leader of our country show some nads again and do something other than "assume the position" that has become the trend recently. Waiting to see what the next move is and waiting for the fight to be brought to our homeland is not the American way. I think JFK and others would be very proud.
I am proud of our troops.
I am proud of our accomplishments.
I am proud of our military leaders.
By God I am proud to be an American.
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Originally posted by beet1e
As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.
Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.
Gained a little respect from me for that passage.
What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.
Lost a little of it there.
But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had
OK, all gone again.
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thats too bad. its a good point. and one of the fundemental arguements against this type of maneuver. it aint over yet friend. sadly.
but then. we are sheep. i forgot.
sigh.
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First point was good.
Second point was valid, but it wasn't authorized. Maybe I'm a little sensative, but I assumed the fault was being placed on G.H.W. Bush.
Third point was an attack. Singular and without mention of the rest of the world that believed the same thing. Or said they did at least. Just more of the same.
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Originally posted by beet1e
As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.
Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.
What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.
But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had and the actual findings from 2003 to the present means that next time we're in a situation where a country poses a threat to western security, the pres./PM/CIA/MI6 are going to have an uphill struggle to convince the public of the need to go to war. I don't agree that the mere passage of time renders a monumental decision to launch a major war campaign "irrelevant".
One of the few times I'll probably agree with you.
Given the information we had at the time, we weren't only justified to go in, we were obligated. However, our justification for being there ended when we decided there were no WMD and stopped looking.
At this point we're just nation builders. Whether that's right or wrong is another discussion.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
First point was good.
Second point was valid, but it wasn't authorized. Maybe I'm a little sensative, but I assumed the fault was being placed on G.H.W. Bush.
Third point was an attack. Singular and without mention of the rest of the world that believed the same thing. Or said they did at least. Just more of the same.
the rest of the world did'nt join us did they?
marlette hit it right on the head. it is nation building and that was the plan all along.
thats what bothers me most.
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Originally posted by JB88
the rest of the world did'nt join us did they?
marlette hit it right on the head. it is nation building and that was the plan all along.
thats what bothers me most.
Um, no. That wasn't the plan all along and I never suggested it was.
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i did.
i was suggesting that you were right "now"
i was suggesting that you would have been right had you said it then as well.
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The usual suspects wont be able to drag this thread down, try as they might.
ALL involved.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The usual suspects wont be able to drag this thread down, try as they might.
ALL involved.
Amen. The pictures are incredible. What a turnout.
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see the second post on this thread.
:rolleyes:
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I think Lazerus hit the nail on the head.
beetle just had to get a shot in, can't just say something decent without taking some kind of shot at the US.
dago
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how so?
the idea that its going to be harder to take government at its word next time on intelligence without deep concern?
i know i will be. but then, i naturally was.
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Originally posted by JB88
how so?
the idea that its going to be harder to take government at its word next time on intelligence without deep concern?
i know i will be. but then, i naturally was.
Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
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um. you brought it up.
you might think about that next time.
:)
i digress.
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Originally posted by JB88
um. you brought it up.
you might think about that next time.
:)
i digress.
Um, no, I wrongly responded to Beetle. I should have ignored it.
I don't expect you to think about that, though. You obviously never do.
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Originally posted by JB88
the rest of the world did'nt join us did they?
marlette hit it right on the head. it is nation building and that was the plan all along.
thats what bothers me most.
We apparently have a different interpretation of the facts.
Personally, I think you are overly acceptive of conspiracy insinuations and hold the worst possible theories to be true, regardless of what other evidence or theories are presented. A natural, and healthy, distrust of government can cause this. Somewhere between blind faith and fanatic disbelief is where the truth is. I know I'll never know the absolute truth, but being in that area between those two puts me close to it.
IMO of course.
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"free" elections, with over 100k foregin troops inside country?
are you kidding me?
i saw happy american iraqui voting in air force base in US, you name that free elections? why foregin citizens vote for iraq?
why U.S troops lock several thausends of iraqies just before election? for safety reason? ;-)
last 57 years voting like that in countries under russian shoes was claimed as not free, why somone should think voting under american protection is diferent? beucose US let them be democratic? what is a diference between comunist providing elections in eastern europe and U.S providing elections in Iraq?
nothing, both elections are fake
are you still proud ? after most of the reasons about we go there said by our president was fake? are you proud beucose our president lie to his own nation?
are you still proud beucose several hundred americans died beucose our president lie to the public?
you must be kidding
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Originally posted by Martlet
Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
Yup. We agree on that.
dago
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Originally posted by ramzey
"free" elections, with over 100k foregin troops inside country?
are you kidding me?
i saw happy american iraqui voting in air force base in US, you name that free elections? why foregin citizens vote for iraq?
why U.S troops lock several thausends of iraqies just before election? for safety reason? ;-)
last 57 years voting like that in countries under russian shoes was claimed as not free, why somone should think voting under american protection is diferent? beucose US let them be democratic? what is a diference between comunist providing elections in eastern europe and U.S providing elections in Iraq?
nothing, both elections are fake
are you still proud ? after most of the reasons about we go there said by our president was fake? are you proud beucose our president lie to his own nation?
are you still proud beucose several hundred americans died beucose our president lie to the public?
you must be kidding
Holy can't speak English, Batman!
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Originally posted by ramzey
"free" elections, with over 100k foregin troops inside country?
are you kidding me?
i saw happy american iraqui voting in air force base in US, you name that free elections? why foregin citizens vote for iraq?
why U.S troops lock several thausends of iraqies just before election? for safety reason? ;-)
last 57 years voting like that in countries under russian shoes was claimed as not free, why somone should think voting under american protection is diferent? beucose US let them be democratic? what is a diference between comunist providing elections in eastern europe and U.S providing elections in Iraq?
nothing, both elections are fake
are you still proud ? after most of the reasons about we go there said by our president was fake? are you proud beucose our president lie to his own nation?
are you still proud beucose several hundred americans died beucose our president lie to the public?
you must be kidding
^^^
Disconsolated.
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ramzey,
After reading what you wrote it's clear that you are in fact , the joke.
Holy not being on the same planet Batman!
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Originally posted by ramzey
"free" elections, with over 100k foregin troops inside country?
are you kidding me?
i saw happy american iraqui voting in air force base in US, you name that free elections? why foregin citizens vote for iraq?
why U.S troops lock several thausends of iraqies just before election? for safety reason? ;-)
last 57 years voting like that in countries under russian shoes was claimed as not free, why somone should think voting under american protection is diferent? beucose US let them be democratic? what is a diference between comunist providing elections in eastern europe and U.S providing elections in Iraq?
nothing, both elections are fake
are you still proud ? after most of the reasons about we go there said by our president was fake? are you proud beucose our president lie to his own nation?
are you still proud beucose several hundred americans died beucose our president lie to the public?
you must be kidding
That has to be one of the most pathetic things I have ever read.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
We apparently have a different interpretation of the facts.
Personally, I think you are overly acceptive of conspiracy insinuations and hold the worst possible theories to be true, regardless of what other evidence or theories are presented. A natural, and healthy, distrust of government can cause this. Somewhere between blind faith and fanatic disbelief is where the truth is. I know I'll never know the absolute truth, but being in that area between those two puts me close to it.
IMO of course.
i can hear that laz. unfortunately, i gotta run. but as i said before, id like to take it up again later.
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So far things seem to be going well. In the end it will be up to the Iraqs to make it work. We, and our allies, can only give them the chance at Self-Government.
And 'yes', I am proud the United States was a part of it.
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Originally posted by ramzey
"free" elections, with over 100k foregin troops inside country?
are you kidding me?
i saw happy american iraqui voting in air force base in US, you name that free elections? why foregin citizens vote for iraq?
I guess poor ramzey is not familar with the term "absentee ballot", nor the word "expatriate".
US citizens who live and work in foreign lands still are allowed to vote in US elections. I strongly suspect that is true of most democratic countries. Why should that be differant in the Iraq election?
Just because an Iraqi citizen is living and working in a foreign country, should he be denied the right to vote in his own countries election? It is very possible he will choose to return to his own country some day, why shouldn't he be able to vote as every other citizen?
dago
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we are not the first nation builders.
most major european countries have had a long history of it with pretty disasterous results in many cases.
they called it colonialization. typically they had to get kicked out. (didnt we do that?)
whether or not that is what this is....i dont know...but history is always cause for concern.
what our distinguished friend stated was not insane nor was it unbased in reality.
it is a legitimate perspective. IMHO.
even though i may not agree with it, i find it interesting.
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Wow Ramzey.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by JB88
we are not the first nation builders.
most major european countries have had a long history of it with pretty disasterous results in many cases.
they called it colonialization. typically they had to get kicked out. (didnt we do that?)
whether or not that is what this is....i dont know...but history is always cause for concern.
what our distinguished friend stated was not insane nor was it unbased in reality.
it is a legitimate perspective. IMHO.
even though i may not agree with it, i find it interesting.
Colonization is not the same as nation building.
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technically it is not. you are correct.
nation building does hold a modern form of colonialism at its core however.
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Originally posted by JB88
technically it is not. you are correct.
nation building does hold a modern form of colonialism at its core however.
Explain that. How so?
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Originally posted by Martlet
Explain that. How so?
Cause if the Iraqis choose anything that might help US
interests, we are automatically colonizing them, apparently.
Makes no difference if the Iraqis decided to do it on their own,
because we all know they are just little children without minds
of their own.
How some people can be arrogant enough to think that
absolutely baffles me.
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Originally posted by Rino
Cause if the Iraqis choose anything that might help US
interests, we are automatically colonizing them, apparently.
Makes no difference if the Iraqis decided to do it on their own,
because we all know they are just little children without minds
of their own.
How some people can be arrogant enough to think that
absolutely baffles me.
Actually, no. That's nation building, not colonization.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
The WMD thingy has been run completely in the ground. It nears the point of hilarity to me every time this is brought up. The WMDs were and probably some still are. Like was stated they have been used by this country before.
You think the chemical warhead containers were for the purpose of delivering candy, pinata style to the kids? Geez.
What about the "Big Gun" laucher that was disasembled? It wasn`t for a huge fireworks display as a present for surrounding countries.[/SIZE]
It makes me laugh to hear the entire justification for a war with an initial cost of some $180bn, and more than 1000 American lives lost, reclassified as the "WMD thingy". :lol
Chemical warhead containers? You could also have mentioned the centrifuges he wanted for producing weapons grade plutonium. You could have mentioned the nerve gases such as sarin and tabun, which are easy to make and are composed of several chemicals each of which is harmless in isolation, and how Saddam tried to buy these harmless chemicals from different sources. Yes, I know about the Iraqi supergun, part of which came from Britain. These are all reasons why I would have preferred W's dad to have finished the job in 1991. Had the job been finished then, I think there would have been a much greater chance of finding WMD. But... 12 years went by, during which time the issue was arguably neglected by Clinton. IIRC, W declared his intent to invade Iraq on 12th September 2001. But hostilities did not begin till early 2003, partly owing to the UN and prevarication. Who knows what happened to Saddam's arsenal in that time?
Sorry if it sounds like a jab, but it simply isn't good enough to dismiss the entire justification for going to war as an irrelevance, or as a "thingy" that has run aground, only then to try to invent other reasons for going to war, after the fact. The whole debacle has played into the anti-war crusaders' hands, so that next time a crisis or threat to our security arises, mobilisation of our military forces to address that threat is a notion that is going to be much more difficult to sell to the public. If such a crisis were to arise in an election campaign year, well, I'll leave you to figure it out. :aok
Of course Iraq is better off without Saddam, with all that entails. But toppling Saddam's regime, and establishing democracy/elections in Iraq - good though this has been - was NOT the official justification for going to war in the first place.
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Way to keep hijacking the thread Beetle. What a hero!
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No matter what I felt about Iraq before yesterday, I am convinced that it is a place where Americans should be for two reasons:
1) There were a majority of Iraqi people who passed through fear and intimidation to cast votes.
2) There were brutal murderous people who commited suicide to kill Iraqis standing in line to cast votes.
Iraq is exactly the place Americans should be, helping Iraqis as they cast votes for their own deliverance from tryanny.
Before yesterday I was worried and troubled as much by the misguided people in free countries opposed to the sacrifice needed to free Iraq from tyranny as I was by the murderous thugs who are trying to keep Iraq in the dark ages.
Today I feel especially justified in my commitment to those people in Iraq who cast votes yesterday, and throughout the free world these past three days.
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I have to agree with Ramzey, this so-called "elections" backed by occupants bayonets are a sick joke.
At least when all Iraqi people elected Saddam - there were foreign observers, who proved that elections were not faked. Listening to the news today I literally start to laugh at silly attempts to justify a criminal occupation of independant country.
Ramzey, they have used this trick in late-40s all over the world. At that time it was used to divide European nations and Korea to secure their control over "blue" occupation zones, that led to increasing Soviet control in "red" occupation zones and countries like Poland.
Now this "democratic" elections are an apotheosis of political hypocrisy, using so-called "democracy" in it's irrational Western form as an excuse to legalizing an occupation and installing a puppet pro-occupant Kwisling regime, supported by foreign bayonets.
Sorry. You know, I am against democracy in it's religious form, when it is turned into some strange kind of blind faith. I try to be rational.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have to agree with Ramzey,
Of course you do. You didn't even have to post for me to realize that.
Keep mourning the death of your failed nation.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Way to keep hijacking the thread Beetle. What a hero!
"hero" wasnt the word I would have used.
dago
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have to agree with Ramzey, this so-called "elections" backed by occupants bayonets are a sick joke.
God, you are a sad freaking idiot aren't you? Or are we all just suckered in by a troll? After all, I have to wonder if anyone is really as stupidly f'ed up as you.
Were those guys dancing in the street doing so at a bayonets point? I don't think so. The smiles are kinda hard to fake.
dago
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have to agree with Ramzey, this so-called "elections" backed by occupants bayonets are a sick joke.
At least when all Iraqi people elected Saddam - there were foreign observers, who proved that elections were not faked. Listening to the news today I literally start to laugh at silly attempts to justify a criminal occupation of independant country.
Now this "democratic" elections are an apotheosis of political hypocrisy, using so-called "democracy" in it's irrational Western form as an excuse to legalizing an occupation and installing a puppet pro-occupant Kwisling regime, supported by foreign bayonets.
Sorry. You know, I am against democracy in it's religious form, when it is turned into some strange kind of blind faith. I try to be rational.
You are rational from your sad perspective. Just because your country has such a disgraceful history of politics does not mean that others do.
"Ramzey, they have used this trick in late-40s all over the world. At that time it was used to divide European nations and Korea to secure their control over "blue" occupation zones, that led to increasing Soviet control in "red" occupation zones and countries like Poland."
Dear numbnutts, You might wish to revist your soviet era education.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Keep mourning the death of your failed nation.
Thanks. I still feel much more alive, living a real life instead of simulated TV dreams chewing your brain.
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Originally posted by Boroda
At least when all Iraqi people elected Saddam - there were foreign observers, who proved that elections were not faked.
Yeah, Saddam must have been a real popular politician.....getting 100% of the vote....not faked at all, just pure democracy at work. :rolleyes:
You are so disconnected from reality, it's not even funny.
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Originally posted by beet1e
It makes me laugh to hear the entire justification for a war with an initial cost of some $180bn, and more than 1000 American lives lost, reclassified as the "WMD thingy". :lol
The whole debacle has played into the anti-war crusaders' hands, so that next time a crisis or threat to our security arises, mobilisation of our military forces to address that threat is a notion that is going to be much more difficult to sell to the public. If such a crisis were to arise in an election campaign year, well, I'll leave you to figure it out. :aok
The "WMD thingy" statement was for your benefit. I wanted to keep it simple so you would understand.
:D
First off the WMD issue would have never came up if it weren`t for election year here in the U.S. As a matter of fact it was way down on the lists of importance to begin with. The whole issue was used as a political mud slinger simply because of elections here.
180Bn and 1000 American lives you say? Try this on for size.... Freedom is not free. Never has been. Never will be. There has always been and will always be wars. Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world. I know for a fact that our country will not just "assume the position" and wait to be attacked by these wannabe world rulers.
Quite frankly....screw the anti-war crusaders. They never enter the picture to begin with either. That crap is media juice which amounts to nothing. We have had war protesting pansy *** limp wrists in the past. They made much more of a stir than these tree huggin, pastel wearing, tofo eating purse swingers and it amounted to absolutely ZILCH.
When you speak of mobilization of "our" miltary forces , I`m not sure what you mean by "our". I can damn well tell you that when the bullet hits the bone, so to speak, here in the U.S. and it is time to quit talking and take action, it will be done and it will be fully supported by the majority of U.S. citizens. I certainly can`t and would not attempt to speak for your country, but once again , either way, it will amount to nothing as far as what the U.S. actions will be.
One more time.........By God I`m proud to be an American.
The key word being American.
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Originally posted by Dago
God, you are a sad freaking idiot aren't you? Or are we all just suckered in by a troll? After all, I have to wonder if anyone is really as stupidly f'ed up as you.
Were those guys dancing in the street doing so at a bayonets point? I don't think so. The smiles are kinda hard to fake.
dago
LOL.
It's really sad that people can be so blind and refusing to see any thing that contradicts with their religious beliefs.
72% voted last time I heard the news. Incredible. Especially when all foreign obsevers are secured in "green zone", with staged happiness of so-called "voters". It can't even be called a "farce", it's a blatant rape of all your so much adored democratical values.
BTW, did you know this: http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/31/flawed.shtml
There are definetly two different kinds of "democracy". One is people voting against terrorism, that can't be called "democratic", and another is scared people dropping ballots under gunpoints, that is good, because there are Americans pointing guns.
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I respect the Brits and appreciate their support. They have always been by our sides an dhave contributed greatly in Iraq.
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Originally posted by ramzey
last 57 years voting like that in countries under russian shoes was claimed as not free, why somone should think voting under american protection is diferent?
Yeah amerika is same as USSR!! American soldiers will make iraqis vote for only candidates they chose:rolleyes:
Don't be stupid.
I've been voting freely under american protection all my life.
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Surprising but all in all very good that it is now done. There is still hope.
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Originally posted by Suave
Yeah amerika is same as USSR!! American soldiers will make iraqis vote for only candidates they chose:rolleyes:
Agreed. I am 100% sure that US is now much worse then USSR. At least USSR liberated Poland from nazis, while you illegally occupy an independant country, killing up to 100,000 civilians.
Who cares who poor Iraqi people will vote for? Are there any Baath candidates allowed at this "elections"? And who'll count votes? Understand?
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Dear numbnutts, You might wish to revist your soviet era education.
Unfortunately, Soviet education didn't include details of Western provocations that started the Cold War. I had to find all the information on your dirty tricks in modern, pro-Western "history".
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, Saddam must have been a real popular politician.....getting 100% of the vote....not faked at all, just pure democracy at work. :rolleyes:
You are so disconnected from reality, it's not even funny.
It's you who is disconnected from reality.
Saddam at least have let foreign observers to the elections.
I was born in USSR, so you can understand that I know some things about elections under what you call "totalitarian regimes". It was much better then voting in a country occupied by a foreign army. In current conditions, if Baath party was allowed to take part in honest elections - they could easily get more then 50% of the votes, at the most pessimistic estimation.
Now we don't have:
a) Fair elections.
b) Every political party participating in this sad farce.
Guess for yourself. Imagine Soviet Army occupying US and not letting any pre-occupation politicians to participate in "free elections". And with both Republican and Democratic parties banned. Exactly like nazis did in occupied part of USSR in 1941-44, but they didn't spend any effort on such comedies.
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Once again Boroda confirms that the 2 most common elements in the world are hydrogen and stupitity.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks. I still feel much more alive, living a real life instead of simulated TV dreams chewing your brain.
Actually, that's exactly the life you're living.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Agreed. I am 100% sure that US is now much worse then USSR. At least USSR liberated Poland from nazis, while you illegally occupy an independant country, killing up to 100,000 civilians.
Who cares who poor Iraqi people will vote for? Are there any Baath candidates allowed at this "elections"? And who'll count votes? Understand?
Yes I understand, your education was a lie. And the idea of any government motivated by altruism is so alien to you that it's simply an unacceptable idea. Maybe you don't have the courage to accept the bitter truth that the USSR was no better than nazi germany and embrace progress like much of the rest of your countrymen have done.
Nobody can be this stupid guys. I'm convinced he only says lunatic things like this to keep his job. It's sad, but some things haven't changed in russia. Many russians are thankfull that we helped liberate them from the soviets, not you. You're either very weak minded, which I doubt. Or you're only saying things that you don't honestly believe because you're concerned about your personal future.
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Borda.....?!? You're coming close to losing all contact with this Planet and drifting off into space.....:(
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Originally posted by Boroda
Unfortunately, Soviet education didn't include details of Western provocations that started the Cold War. I had to find all the information on your dirty tricks in modern, pro-Western "history".
What Suave said above.. plus how about backing up this stupendous drivel with some facts? Perhaps you mean how the U.S. blocked Berlin and tried to starve the population in order to force the Russians out? Or maybe shooting people for trying to leave the country? How about maintaining puppet governments to do their will?
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Bad, drunken, troll.
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jeeze boroda, thats some ****ed up **** your spewing bro. go sleep it off and beg for forgiveness at a later date.
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Originally posted by Boroda
At least USSR liberated Poland from nazis,
Katyn (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/)
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You're so right 'OneWord'. I forgot all about Katyn. Shame on me.....
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Originally posted by Jackal1
180Bn and 1000 American lives you say? Try this on for size.... Freedom is not free. Never has been. Never will be. There has always been and will always be wars. Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world. I know for a fact that our country will not just "assume the position" and wait to be attacked by these wannabe world rulers.
Saddam - a wannabe world ruler? Oh puhhleeeeze... :rolleyes:
I don't doubt that Saddam once had WMD. But I never believed he had the vehicle to deploy them far beyond his own frontiers. We saw Scuds hitting Israel when DD (Dubya's Dad) was in charge. But was America ever under threat from Iraq? Not directly. What concerned me was the possibility of Saddam exporting WMD to neighbouring states and/or other organisations willing to pay the asking price. That may already have happened...
As for the rest of your post, try not to let this moment of patriotic fervour cloud your judgement. And remember, if the attempt at democracy fails, you can always reassess your justification of the war by saying it stabilised the oil supply to the US.
:aok:aok
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Ugh...
I really am disappointed in everyone here for letting this thread degenerate into a Beet1e slamming U.S., U.S. jabbing back at beet1e, boroda piping up mudsling fest.
Get some new material, it's just getting boring.
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Beetle it doesn't have to be the US directly that Iraq would be attacking. We have allies in that region that were within range of SHs missiles. We can let it go and watch when the first missiles rain down on our allies. We won't be held responsible though when they retaliate with whatever means they feel necessary. If you think for one minute though that places like Israel wouldn't retaliate with WMDs your a fool. Especially against a dictator that is known for using such devices in the past against his enemies.
I'm sure though you've seen where Iraq was placing their missiles and what their ranges were and payload capabilities. I'm sure you'll also say it's purely for oil and not because they are our allies. America is just a greedy country and we care only for oil and nothing more.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ugh...
I really am disappointed in everyone here for letting this thread degenerate into a Beet1e slamming U.S., U.S. jabbing back at beet1e, boroda piping up mudsling fest.
Get some new material, it's just getting boring.
Your right......., but's it's a slow Sunday before the Super Bowl. :D
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I am proud of our troops as well but here is my problem.
It seems that most of the people in Iraq hate us and want us out of there country as they see us as occupiers!
I can only hope that our young men and women can be brought home ASAP!
Now that AMERICA has fought and died for a democracy for a largely ungrateful country.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
If you think for one minute though that places like Israel wouldn't retaliate with WMDs your a fool. Especially against a dictator that is known for using such devices in the past against his enemies.
In 1991, Israel was targeted by Saddam's Scuds, most of which were destroyed by US Patriot missiles. And Israel did not retaliate. I think maybe DD asked them not to.
I'm not saying that Iraq won't be better off in the long term. But the keyword here is "long". I've just finished watching a 50 minute presentation on the BBC programme Panorama (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4184323.stm). Sure, elections are going on - but so are a lot of explosions and gunfire in the streets of various Baghdad cities. Things have got worse for the allies in the past few months. More than 1400 American service personnel have died, and more than 100 British. Pssst - it's the insurgent thingy ;)
One of the questions being asked is As Iraq holds historic elections, Panorama presents a major film examining the state of Iraq today. Will the elections put the country on the road to peace - or push it deeper into war?
- Indeed. We'll have to wait and see.
No-one can argue with those who would claim that the war was launched under a false prospectus, given how things have turned out, what with no WMD and all.
We can't change the past, so the best we can do now is to safeguard the future of Iraq.
I'm not bashing the US or the UK over this war, although the security services have a lot of questions to answer IMO.
But what I am saying is that it's way too early to get carried away by Golfer's patriotic flag waving, or Jackal's nationalistic chest thumping.
That is all.
Toodle Pip.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Saddam - a wannabe world ruler? Oh puhhleeeeze... :rolleyes:
I don't doubt that Saddam once had WMD. But I never believed he had the vehicle to deploy them far beyond his own frontiers. We saw Scuds hitting Israel when DD (Dubya's Dad) was in charge. But was America ever under threat from Iraq? Not directly. What concerned me was the possibility of Saddam exporting WMD to neighbouring states and/or other organisations willing to pay the asking price. That may already have happened...
As for the rest of your post, try not to let this moment of patriotic fervour cloud your judgement. And remember, if the attempt at democracy fails, you can always reassess your justification of the war by saying it stabilised the oil supply to the US.
:aok:aok
That`s just the point. No , he didn`t have the capability at the time , but if you let wannabes like him, no matter what country, get a foothold and start rolling over others, then the capability becomes not only a possibility, but a reality.
Yea Beet we are a very patriotic country as a whole. We are not very lackluster and Ho Humish when it comes to our country, our freedom and our life. We get very involved. Were proud of our country and what we do for others and don`t mind showing it.
Frankly I don`t believe you folks could get excitied about anything if an M-80 was lit under your ass. :D
As for as the oil goes.......get a grip . If we wanted or needed just the oil, and was determined to have it, we would have waltzed in, kicked their bellybutton and took it.
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The high voter turnout and the Iraqi reaction to the election is very heartening. The decision to go to war may have been flawed, but this bodes well for its end.
To quote my favorite 1/2 American:
"This may not be the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning."
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All of you are quite funny. None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion. You bicker over the means and method, yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal. Those who make and project policy and doctrine are fully aware of the average person's inablility to grasp anything beyond the immediate.
Iraq (this time around) was never about Iraq. It is not about Iraqis, WMD, Hussein, terrorism, freedom, tyranny, democracy, religeous extremism or Israel. But you carry on with the good bickering.
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Originally posted by Suave
Yes I understand, your education was a lie. And the idea of any government motivated by altruism is so alien to you that it's simply an unacceptable idea.
Wow, maybe your eduation was better? Altruism and economical principals never could live together before. Looks like you are opening new era.
Do you know at least one country in the world, wich goverment or population is motivated by altruism? There is no one. Because for this historical moment it's impossible. And it will be impossible while there are religiouse or politial conflicts, rich people and starvated kids.
Your kind of altruism is Vietnam after agent-x. Your kind of altruism is bombed Serbia and broken Korea. Your altruism - Hirosima and Nagasaki. And every time your altruism becoming death. My view of "Altruism" is something else.
Nobody can be this stupid guys. I'm convinced he only says lunatic things like this to keep his job. It's sad, but some things haven't changed in russia.
It's very sad that you need to control what are you talking to keep your job.
Yep. There are some things wich can't be changed in Russia. It's because of our country is too old. And it's too difficult to change mentality in interests of agressors. But always this defend us.
Many russians are thankfull that we helped liberate them from the soviets, not you.
I don't know anyone. Maybe because they don't live here anymore? If yes, they can not name themself "Russians". And sure, have no any right to thank anybody for USSR crash.
You're either very weak minded, which I doubt. Or you're only saying things that you don't honestly believe because you're concerned about your personal future.
Our future is our country. I'm not sure, does "Motherland" mean something to. I'm not sure. Personal future is nothing without your nation.
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Originally posted by Rolex
All of you are quite funny. None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion. You bicker over the means and method, yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal. Those who make and project policy and doctrine are fully aware of the average person's inablility to grasp anything beyond the immediate.
Iraq (this time around) was never about Iraq. It is not about Iraqis, WMD, Hussein, terrorism, freedom, tyranny, democracy, religeous extremism or Israel. But you carry on with the good bickering.
If not for Saddam, we would have been over there at all.
I say it has everthing to do with Saddam. Please tell me why we went over for Gulf War 1?
Please tell me why we went this time. It has everything to do with Saddam.
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Originally posted by Rolex
All of you are quite funny. None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion. You bicker over the means and method, yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal.
americas there, no amount of arguing over the reasons can change that. wether or not you agree to the reasons, once you get something like this started, you'd damn well better make sure you get the job completly 100% done.
boroda, even a "sham" election is a step in the right direction, once the americans leave (and this "sham" is one heck of a big step in that direction) they can have a "real" election.
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Originally posted by Rolex
All of you are quite funny. None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion. You bicker over the means and method, yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal. Those who make and project policy and doctrine are fully aware of the average person's inablility to grasp anything beyond the immediate.
Iraq (this time around) was never about Iraq. It is not about Iraqis, WMD, Hussein, terrorism, freedom, tyranny, democracy, religeous extremism or Israel. But you carry on with the good bickering.
The reason we went to war was to crush the Middle East ‘paradigm’. The stinking, foul, putrid ‘sham’ that has existed for 50 years. It’s GONE… It’s OVER… It’s not coming back…!!
What will replace it? How the HELL should I know. But, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, could be worse than what it was, and what it would become, and the implications for our National Security.
And you're correct, we didn't ask your permission..
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"Those who make and project policy and doctrine are fully aware of the average person's inablility to grasp anything beyond the immediate. "
just because you accept a different propoganda set from the rest of us doesnt make you somehow superior, and somehow above average, part of some kind of "elite" humans who should be in charge of humanity for its own good?
if you beleive that, do humanity a favour, find yourself the windiest road you can, get yourself a SUV, and see how fast you can go around them corners...
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Originally posted by NUKE
I say it has everthing to do with Saddam. Please tell me why we went over for Gulf War 1?
To expel Iraq and prevent Iraq from annexing a country that was contemptuous of America at the time, but, had vital, strategic port facilities and additional access to Gulf shipping lanes. To prevent further destabilization of the region had Iraq felt emboldened from inaction creating a strategic immediacy should regional oil exports be disrupted.
Originally posted by NUKE
Please tell me why we went this time. It has everything to do with Saddam.
No, I won't spend the time and energy to tell you. You are intransigent.
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Originally posted by Rolex
To expel Iraq and prevent Iraq from annexing a country that was contemptuous of America at the time, but, had vital, strategic port facilities and additional access to Gulf shipping lanes. To prevent further destabilization of the region had Iraq felt emboldened from inaction creating a strategic immediacy should regional oil exports be disrupted.
So, in other words because of Saddam.
No, I won't spend the time and energy to tell you. You are intransigent. [/B]
Same as above
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks. I still feel much more alive, living a real life instead of simulated TV dreams chewing your brain.
Ok conspiracy theorist... it wasn't simulated.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The usual suspects wont be able to drag this thread down, try as they might.
ALL involved.
I was wrong.
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Yeah sadly Saur you were.
the troops who made this happen, to the hijackers and wackos.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Y to the wackos.
Foreign and domestic
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Exactly Martlet!
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The election must have gone great, CNN is downright depressing today.
to the real freedom fighters!
to the doom and gloom crowd and the terrorist opressors!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Agreed. I am 100% sure that US is now much worse then USSR. At least USSR liberated Poland from nazis, while you illegally occupy an independant country, killing up to 100,000 civilians.
Hmm wasn't it Stalin that secretly agreed with Hitler to divide Poland? And didn't the Soviets stab the Poles in the back two weeks after the Hitler invasion when they were fighting for their lives? Didn't the Soviets murder 50,000 Polish officers and leaders from the newly conquered territory in the Katyn Forest? And keep all the Polish territory stolen with Hitler's agreement? And keep their Polish regime of Kwislings in power by threat of Soviet bayonets for 45 years? Yeah I'm sure the Poles are grateful to their [former] Soviet [former] masters, er comrades.
repeat after me: Former Soviet Union!
BTW: Syria's next, you read it here first!
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Originally posted by Rolex
All of you are quite funny. None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion. You bicker over the means and method, yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal. Those who make and project policy and doctrine are fully aware of the average person's inablility to grasp anything beyond the immediate.
Iraq (this time around) was never about Iraq. It is not about Iraqis, WMD, Hussein, terrorism, freedom, tyranny, democracy, religeous extremism or Israel. But you carry on with the good bickering.
"i'll tell you what aug, im gonna be the first to open a t-shirt and hotdog stand at the tigres euphrates golf and raquet club" - Dudley, retired drill instructor speaking to me as the first bombs fell on bagdad.
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Once again Boroda confirms that the 2 most common elements in the world are hydrogen and stupitity.
That got a laugh from me!
:) :) :)
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Originally posted by Estel
Wow, maybe your eduation was better? Altruism and economical principals never could live together before. Looks like you are opening new era.
Do you know at least one country in the world, wich goverment or population is motivated by altruism?
You must be from same place boroda is. Thanks, you reinforced my point.
Your kind of altruism is bombed Serbia and broken Korea. [/b]
So basically you believe that the UN and Nato were the aggressors in Korea and the Balkans. If you believe this then you head is probably full of **** like Katyn was not perpetrated by the USSR. And that Stalin committed no genocide. Like I said, an education of lies that you find easier to accept than the truth.
It's very sad that you need to control what are you talking to keep your job. [/b]
Yes well lucky for me I live in an evil capitalist country where my mail isn't monitored and I can say whatever I want without fearing that I will lose my job.
Yep. There are some things wich can't be changed in Russia. It's because of our country is too old. And it's too difficult to change mentality in interests of agressors. But always this defend us.[/b]
Nonsensical rationalization. Probably repeating what you've been told.
I don't know anyone. Maybe because they don't live here anymore? If yes, they can not name themself "Russians". And sure, have no any right to thank anybody for USSR crash. [/b]
Sure they can call themselves russians. It's the soviets who were the enemy of the russians, they enslaved your country. Just like the nazi's enlaved germany.
Our future is our country. I'm not sure, does "Motherland" mean something to. I'm not sure. Personal future is nothing without your nation. [/B]
Yeah... that makes sense, in a giberish nonsensical way.
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Originally posted by Otto
Borda.....?!? You're coming close to losing all contact with this Planet and drifting off into space.....:(
Guys, I don't want to scare you, but are you ready to find yourselves one day amid the remnants of the disbanded Union. You'd better listen attentively to what Boroda says, and do some simple extrapolations instead of calling him names.
You can't even realize to what extend you are brainwashed. At least try to listen (or read) and think more than you wastetalk.
Dividi et impera ! As individuals we are better off staying together.
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Originally posted by genozaur
As individuals we are better off staying together.
Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?
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Oh we listen to what he says. He's like a museum to us. A terrible reminder how utterly a stalinist government can controll people.
I would like to introduce him to some people, because they don't believe anybody who believes the things that boroda does still exist.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?
Logic and propoganda slogans don't mix.
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Originally posted by OneWordAnswer
Katyn (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/)
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dresden.htm
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?
In order to stay apart one has to be a part of something. Maybe of humanity ? :D
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Originally posted by genozaur
In order to stay apart one has to be a part of something.
So you're saying that... the very last specimen, or the only specimen of... anything really... cannot be alone because... it is incapable of being apart... as in order to apart there must be more of what does not exist?
I don't want this to be taken as a personal attack, and please don't take it as such, but I think that if brains were money and battleships were a nickel apiece, you wouldn't have the down payment on a kayak.
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Vortican:
You're reading something into what I posted that isn't there. No opinion was offered about the legitimacy of the policy. None whatsoever. It simply is. You and most others do not understand the policy and doctrine considerations that led to the invasion and your jumping to conclusions clearly confirms my point about average people.
P.S.
For centuries, leaders have believed it is their destiny to shape the world into their vision using doctrines of what's best for humanity. Martin Luther, Lenin, Napolean, Churchill, FDR, Lincoln, Hitler, Stalin, Truman, Hussein, Chirac, Tojo, Mao...
NUKE:
The world condition changed significantly between the first Gulf War and the second. The US foreign policy doctrine changed also. Hussein was not so much of a problem - he was just an excellent opportunity. You're looking at one move and not the whole chess board.
Hussein did not challenge the US foreign policy doctrine, something else did. George Bush (and Tony Blair) both know that the true strategic imperative for action would fly over everyone's heads. No one would get it and the press and legislatures of both countries would have a field day. Hussein, WMD, freedom for Iraqis - they are collectively and individually more credible to Mr. and Mrs. Average than trying to explain the real reason. Mr. Bush isn't exactly a gifted orator, but I doubt anyone could explain it in such a way that most people will nod their head and say, "Yup."
Again (he adds because it's like talking to 8 year-old girls here with fragile egos), you are not wrong, but that's not the whole story. You're missing the cold, hard reality of global economics and power. The kind of reality and thinking that policy makers and doctrine makers use as calls to action. The triggers are not what you think they are.
I was going to say something about your 'avatar-like' naivete of the world,' but I won't. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you haven't considered the 'why' as broadly as you could.
The election in Iraq is a good thing. But it is irrelevant, in the cold, harsh minds of policy and doctrine makers.
None of this belongs in this thread. If I get some time this week, I'll write up what the real reason was (and is since Iraq is just the beginning) for you, NUKE. It won't be easy, but after you read it and think about it, you'll agree with it. There is no conjecture in the reasoning. As Sgt. Friday would say, "Just the facts..."
It won't change anyone's position, that isn't my point. It will just open your eyes to what a snapshot of global economics and geo-politics may look like 15 years from now. And there is your first hint about some of the reasons.
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Originally posted by beet1e
In 1991, Israel was targeted by Saddam's Scuds, most of which were destroyed by US Patriot missiles. And Israel did not retaliate. I think maybe DD asked them not to.
QUOTE]
Yeah and this time Isreal said they would not if they were attacked by Iraq. I think they gave the impression they might nuke him if he tried that crap again.
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Mornin', Jackal.
I haven't seen anything here to make be change my mind when I said it's not good enough to go to war on a false prospectus, and then to try to invent reasons for having gone in the first place. I'm not saying that I disagreed with the decision to go in, but in light of how things have turned out, the US chest thumping is out of place, or premature at the very least.
Some jackal quotes: Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world.
And what has America been doing in the last 50 years? if you let wannabes like him, no matter what country, get a foothold and start rolling over others
same deal - we've had Viet Nam, we've had Iraq, we've had a few others in between. Now there's talk of doing Iran, maybe doing Syria - where's it going to end? How many US service personnel are going to die before your folks at home start to comprehend the cost in terms of American lives and say "Stop! Enough!". Were proud of our country and what we do for others and don`t mind showing it.
Dear me, I think I ought to send you the DVD of that Panorama broadcast. John Simpson spoke of many problems in the region, but the one he mentioned more than once was that it's difficult if not impossible to find Iraqi civilians who accept that their lot is better now than it was under Saddam.
Proud of what you do for others? What do you think your country is - some kind of world police force? Are you saying that you would send your troops into other countries and see thousands of them get wasted because you're proud of what you do for others? And the justification would be... - so that you can thump your chest harder than the last time?
Jeez, Jackal. You're scaring me. :eek:
Rolex - I'd be interested to read what you're about to write up for NUKE - will you post it here in this thread?
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I would just like to point out that it was the UN who forbid Bush SR. from officially spanking Hussein and getting that rolling.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Some jackal quotes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And what has America been doing in the last 50 years?
tyr·an·ny
A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.
The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler.
Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly: “I have sworn... eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” (Thomas Jefferson).
]
As The US was involved in a Cold War from ’45 to ’90, the absolute power required for tyranny was not so absolute.
The Soviets, the Chinese, had opposing forces in Europe, Asia, and the Americas, France was also involved in SE Asia, NATO and the UN were formed to share responsibility and power.
Truman even offered to put the US Nuclear arsenal under the UN. At the first meeting of the Atomic Energy Commission the U.S. delegate proposed a plan to internationalize control of atomic energy. The plan was rejected by the Soviet Union, which tested its first nuclear weapons in 1949, ending the U.S. monopoly.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Mornin', Jackal.
I haven't seen anything here to make be change my mind when I said it's not good enough to go to war on a false prospectus
Mornin` Beet.
Well don`t look now, but you are a tad late on this one. :D
I`m not trying to change your mind. :D
Now there's talk of doing Iran, maybe doing Syria - where's it going to end?
It probably will not end until we get the problems taken care of that has been left unchecked and untethered for way too may years.
John Simpson spoke of many problems in the region, but the one he mentioned more than once was that it's difficult if not impossible to find Iraqi civilians who accept that their lot is better now than it was under Saddam.
:D ROFL Geez Beet , that wasn`t even a good troll. Simpson is the BBC`s world affairs editor for Christ`s sake. Sold to the highest bidder.
You going to grab some Jiffy Pop and go over to Boroda`s for a night of viewing propaganda films when you are done here? :D
Proud of what you do for others? What do you think your country is - some kind of world police force?
Simply put...without a doubt. Yes. Absolutely.
Someone has to take care of the problems that are arising in the world and we seem to be the only one capable of the task.
I bet there is nothing worse than living in a country that so envys the U.S. on one hand , but so depends on it on the other for things that they are not either willing or capable of having the intestinal fortitude to handle, huh?
Jeez, Jackal. You're scaring me.
Yea, I know. The truth is some frighteneing stuff. :D
Beet I`m beginning to worry about you. Your trolls are getting sluggish and more than a little half assed.
I think maybe the lack of freedom is getting to you.
Why don`t ya just come on over before you lose the right to do so.
I bet Laz would reserve lane 3 down at the range for you. :D
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Originally posted by Jackal1
ROFL Geez Beet , that wasn`t even a good troll. Simpson is the BBC`s world affairs editor for Christ`s sake. Sold to the highest bidder.
No trolls. Simpson has been a BBC war correspondent in Iraq for about 25 years. So I think maybe - just maybe - he knows a little more about it than you or me.
As to whether the American public will put up with thousands of servicemen's lives being lost in a campaign that goes for country after country - I wouldn't push it. I think there are limits. It's not as if your injured troops get star treatment when they get home. No, they are abandoned to voluntary donations through PayPal. How much of that are they going to take before someone asks what's it all for...
Someone has to take care of the problems that are arising in the world and we seem to be the only one capable of the task.
I bet there is nothing worse than living in a country that so envys the U.S. on one hand , but so depends on it on the other for things that they are not either willing or capable of having the intestinal fortitude to handle, huh?
Um... it may have escaped your notice, but we're in that war too - the second largest coalition force.
Lack of freedom? LOL - let's see, Holland next month, France in March, 2 weeks in Italy in the summer, invitations to the US and Ecuador pending...
Let me know the location of your one horse town, and I might buy you a drink at the saloon on my way through. If not, I'll just buy the town. :D
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I'll start a new topic, Beet1e.
I'm afraid it's going to be pretty long.
Some historical background has to be blended into the current global situation, then quite a few pieces have to be sewn together from 5 continents before being brought forward 15 years.
It is an 'interesting' snapshot of time. ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
No trolls. Simpson has been a BBC war correspondent in Iraq for about 25 years. So I think maybe - just maybe - he knows a little more about it than you or me.
:D
What he knows, you and I will never know. What pleases the BBC is all we will ever see from him as long as they are making out the paycheck. Simple as that.
ow much of that are they going to take before someone asks what's it all for...
It doesn`t have to be asked because the answer is allready known.
Lack of freedom? LOL - let's see, Holland next month, France in March, 2 weeks in Italy in the summer, invitations to the US and Ecuador pending...
Freedom in your own country. You have handed it over willingly.
I can understand why you are so happy about traveling .
Let me know the location of your one horse town, and I might buy you a drink at the saloon on my way through. If not, I'll just buy the town.
One horse? Town?
Any mass transit here where I live would probably be started by Keds. :D
Lake Tawakoni Beet. S/SE of big D.
Weuns don`t cotton much to them thar city folk around these parts.
:D
Come on down. There`s a cozy little biker bar here. If you don`t have your own knife, they have a few the house supplies to meet dress code.
Um... it may have escaped your notice, but we're in that war too - the second largest coalition force.
LOL Nearly forgot this one.
Yea I know Beet. Dragged kickin ,screaming and whimpering all the way and the first to start howling about getting out.
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Jackal!
What he knows, you and I will never know. What pleases the BBC is all we will ever see from him as long as they are making out the paycheck. Simple as that.
Well that's BS and you know it. The cameras don't lie. The same could be said for any reporter. I guess you believe what you want to believe. Just like we believed there were WMD in Iraq Freedom in your own country. You have handed it over willingly.
I don't know what you're talking about. But then again, neither do you.
Tawakoni? Well I'll be damned. You might just be in luck. My pending invitation to the US is to visit a friend in Ft. Smith,AR. To get there, the most cost effective way is going to be a plane to the Big D (though unlikely to be an A380), then a rental car. I think it might be possible to take in LT. :aok But a b-b-biker bar? What, silly hats and moustaches down to the knees, bad teeth, tattoos, dungarees and every third guy called "Bubba"? Kinda like that pool and chicken bar in "My Cousin Vinny"? Yeah, OK then - sounds like fun! We can talk about the good old days of the pizza map. :cool:
Back on topic - just been reading today's news about the elections in Iraq. Clearly very well received by the Iraqis, but Lazs will be along to tell us we've gone too far - they've given women the vote too.
Rolex - thanks for that - I'll look out for it.
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Originally posted by beet1e
It's not as if your injured troops get star treatment when they get home. No, they are abandoned to voluntary donations through PayPal.
Actually Beetle, The Veterans Administration hospitals are generally well regarded despite the load they have had placed on them. The system itself has higher satisfaction ratings than civilian counterparts and there are a number of world leading research projects being funded by the VA.
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Originally posted by beet1e
As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.
Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.
What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.
But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had and the actual findings from 2003 to the present means that next time we're in a situation where a country poses a threat to western security, the pres./PM/CIA/MI6 are going to have an uphill struggle to convince the public of the need to go to war. I don't agree that the mere passage of time renders a monumental decision to launch a major war campaign "irrelevant".
Beet, I agree with much of your statement, and welcome your reasoned argument. However, no one, including you, has mentioned the fact that Sadd_one was threatened with just this kind of action, albeit tacitly, many years before it was actually carried out, due to his repeated violations of multiple UN resolutions. That alone should be enough to have warranted this action, in my opinion. Screw the WMD excuse: it wasn't needed.
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Originally posted by Suave
You must be from same place boroda is. Thanks, you reinforced my point.
I never need to hide where I'm from. Yes I was born in USSR. And now live here. And I know about your Troyan Horse with the masks of "Altruism" and "American Democracy".
So basically you believe that the UN and Nato were the aggressors in Korea and the Balkans.
The war started against one of the europe countries without any permission from UN can be named only as Aggession.
If you believe this then you head is probably full of **** like Katyn was not perpetrated by the USSR. And that Stalin committed no genocide. Like I said, an education of lies that you find easier to accept than the truth.
Really? Maybe you will confirm that USA is guilty in war crimes in Vietnam and Korea? Or not? Or this is still Soviet propaganda? There is no question, do I believe it or not. It's fact. It was happened. Do you believe it? Do you know, that many people in Russia still believe that Stalin was right in killing "Enemy's of Public"? And they not just believe it. They believe that this still the only way to create and manipulate such big empire like USSR was.
Yes well lucky for me I live in an evil capitalist country where my mail isn't monitored and I can say whatever I want without fearing that I will lose my job.
Looks like Echelone was our creation....
Sure they can call themselves russians. It's the soviets who were the enemy of the russians, they enslaved your country. Just like the nazi's enlaved germany.
The socialism was the choice of people of that time. I hope we will not discute here about different ways of communism and socialism. So, it was the way of the whole nation. Not only Lenin or Stalin as you can think. And I guess we don't need to discute was it good or not for Russia, because you are not Russian. And you can not know it, how people lived in USSR and now in Russia. And how did they live before.
The only I see, you didn't answer.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal! Well that's BS and you know it. The cameras don't lie. The same could be said for any reporter. I guess you believe what you want to believe. Just like we believed there were WMD in Iraq I don't know what you're talking about. But then again, neither do you.
Tawakoni? Well I'll be damned. You might just be in luck. My pending invitation to the US is to visit a friend in Ft. Smith,AR. To get there, the most cost effective way is going to be a plane to the Big D (though unlikely to be an A380), then a rental car. I think it might be possible to take in LT. :aok But a b-b-biker bar? What, silly hats and moustaches down to the knees, bad teeth, tattoos, dungarees and every third guy called "Bubba"? Kinda like that pool and chicken bar in "My Cousin Vinny"? Yeah, OK then - sounds like fun! We can talk about the good old days of the pizza map. :cool:
Back on topic - just been reading today's news about the elections in Iraq. Clearly very well received by the Iraqis, but Lazs will be along to tell us we've gone too far - they've given women the vote too.
Rolex - thanks for that - I'll look out for it.
Beetle, true cameras don't lie, but editors DO discrimenate about what shots are shown and they are very good at making shots tell THIER story.
All the american press says about the Iraqi conflict is negative. All they talk about is how the dems call for it to stop and all the people over there that want us out. This is in direct conflict with what I hear from every serviceman I have talked with or my friends have talked with. They talk about how most of the people in Iraq really ARE glad that we are over there, from first hand experience. These poeple are risking their lives over there, they would they come home and lay down this stuff if it was bull****? They would be coming home bitter if otherwise.
Sure there are a few that I have seen on T.V. that denounce the war.... the press always seem to find these guys... but all I find are guys that have felt appreciation from the Iraqis. My problem with this discontinuity of messages is... if all I find are people that say one thing but the press seems to only see the direct opposite.... I have to question the info the press is offering up.... camera shots and all.
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Originally posted by slimm50
Beet, I agree with much of your statement, and welcome your reasoned argument. However, no one, including you, has mentioned the fact that Sadd_one was threatened with just this kind of action, albeit tacitly, many years before it was actually carried out, due to his repeated violations of multiple UN resolutions. That alone should be enough to have warranted this action, in my opinion. Screw the WMD excuse: it wasn't needed.
Slimm, I agree with you - and I did say much the same thing in one of the O-Club posts leading up to Gulf War Part 2. Whenever posting about it, I always considered it it not as a new war, but as the completion of a job that had been started 12 years earlier.
Mosgood - fair enough. I have met Iraqis - on a Christmas holiday in Tenerife in 1991 - less than a year after the Gulf war part 1. I had an American wife then - and the Iraqis insisted on buying us both dinner one night! They had no problem with what the coalition had done earlier that year. But they hated Saddam with a passion.
But we can't argue with the fact that no WMD have been found - or is the reporting of this matter just another media conspiracy??? And there's no denying the level of insurgency, and the deaths of more than 1400 US service personnel since the hostilities began. Not even the media can fake that!
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I'm very happy the Iraqis have been given the opportunity to vote, and also proud that our forces were partly responsible for making it happen. I'm sure that they are proud of the moment as well. I'm also glad the folks that make the decisions didn't cave and yank them all out prematurely. Oh what a number that would have done on morale.
In Gen. Tommy Franks (Ret) book, he mentions meetings with King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt during the beginning of 2003 as CENTCOM CinC. King Abdullah II was quoted as saying to him "General, from reliable intelligence sources, I believe the Iraqis are hiding chemical and biological weapons." President Mubarak was quoted as saying "General Franks, you must be very, very careful. We have spoken with Saddam Hussein. He is a madman. He was WMD--biologicals, actually--and he will use them on your troops."
Later, during the opening moves of OIF, Gen. Franks mentions that they received urgent intelligence that "Republican Guard units in Baghdad had moved south to the city of Al Kut--and that they had been issued mustard gas and an unknown nerve agent."
It seems a lot of things were pointing in the direction that they were there and they were going to be used. Our forces were wearing their protective suits for the beginning of the war. But now, as to why haven't any stockpiles been found yet - don't know. Maybe Jordan and Egypt secretly wanted Hussein and his government to go down too?
+1 on the troops that made the vote happen.
mauser
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Originally posted by Suave
Yes I understand, your education was a lie. And the idea of any government motivated by altruism is so alien to you that it's simply an unacceptable idea.
My education was probably much better then your comic books. It included using my own brain on the facts I see. I was also told to avoid blind faith in Newton's laws, god, eternal blue sky or democracy.
Originally posted by Suave
Maybe you don't have the courage to accept the bitter truth that the USSR was no better than nazi germany and embrace progress like much of the rest of your countrymen have done.
USSR was no better then nazi germany? Another [edit] repeating this new-fangled nazi rhethorics?
Did you read any books on WWII history? I advise you to find something about Nuremburg court, it must be a revelation for you.
Progress?! Definetly, "democracy" is a great progress on the way of abandoning total education, free medical care and paid jobs for everyone. Progress means coca-cola and chewing gum instead of this useless stuff, does't it?
Originally posted by Suave
Nobody can be this stupid guys. I'm convinced he only says lunatic things like this to keep his job.
Oh really? I had a nice experience with Americans and one project that I took part in. I was amazed at how many people sent me personal e-mails, apologising for having to bait me in public, and saying they support us but can't do it openly...
Originally posted by Suave
It's sad, but some things haven't changed in russia. Many russians are thankfull that we helped liberate them from the soviets, not you. You're either very weak minded, which I doubt. Or you're only saying things that you don't honestly believe because you're concerned about your personal future.
Liberated us from total education, free medical care, paid jobs for everyone and pensions for old people. But you couldn't do it yourself by force and weapons, there were our own traitors and idiots who did the job. Unfortunately, we still have the same gang of crooks here.
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Hell Boroda I don't really know. I got through high school, I'm enrolled in university and doing quite well, and I'm a writer.
Gee, I guess I get all my education from comic books, right? :rolleyes:
Why has this thread degraded? It doesn't matter the reasons behind anything...everyone disagrees and thinks they know best. It's no more than a mudslinging contest...
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Hell Boroda, you are a never ending source of amusement.. I know it's pointless to debate with you so I'll just tip my hat and thanks for proving that propaganda works well on the weak minded.
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Thanks Boroda, you are really showing these guys the utter superiority of the soviet system in all fields and endeavors.
To all capitalist pigs:
Click on link below, wait for song to begin, then gaze intently at the image of the great Lenin!
EXPERIENCE BORODA'S WORLD AND SEE THE TRUTH (http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian//lyrics/political/SovNatlAnthem.wav)
(http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/09/21/lenin.jpg)
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" It simply is. You and most others do not understand the policy and doctrine considerations that led to the invasion and your jumping to conclusions clearly confirms my point about average people.
"
??? this statement alone confirms my conclusions...you have a ridiculous "holier than thou" attitude going on...
"Thanks Boroda, you are really showing these guys the utter superiority of the soviet system in all fields and endeavors. "
yeah, i like his defence of a system that a large number of people outlived is always entertaining...
darwin was right, and it doesnt just apply to living organisms...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh really? I had a nice experience with Americans and one project that I took part in. I was amazed at how many people sent me personal e-mails, apologising for having to bait me in public, and saying they support us but can't do it openly...
I particularly like this bit.
Boroda, that's not even plausible. You can do better than that.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thanks Boroda, you are really showing these guys the utter superiority of the soviet system in all fields and endeavors.
To all capitalist pigs:
Click on link below, wait for song to begin, then gaze intently at the image of the great Lenin!
EXPERIENCE BORODA'S WORLD AND SEE THE TRUTH (http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian//lyrics/political/SovNatlAnthem.wav)
(http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/09/21/lenin.jpg)
Oh look a former soviet with opposite viewpoint. Grunherz you traitor! People like you destroyed the socialist utopia!!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal! Well that's BS and you know it. The cameras don't lie. The same could be said for any reporter. I guess you believe what you want to believe.
.
Well you are wrong about it being BS and you know it. :D
Cameras show you what those in charge, you know the ones writing the paycheck, wishs to show you.
I agree with the that" the same could be said about any reporter" comment. That is the point, but this guy works for the BBC for God`s sake. What do you expect him to say?
I believe what those who have been there and have fought, mingled and interacted with the Iraqi people have said. Reporters are like hired guns, They do exactly what those who are writing their check wishs them to do. Controversy sells big time. It usualy has little to do with whether facts or involved or not.
Freedom in your own country. You have handed it over willingly. I don't know what you're talking about. But then again, neither do you.
Oh yea, I believe we both know what I`m talking about. As a matter of fact I know we do, but we won`t get into another "right to protect" debate here.
But a b-b-biker bar? What, silly hats and moustaches down to the knees, bad teeth, tattoos, dungarees and every third guy called "Bubba"? Kinda like that pool and chicken bar in "My Cousin Vinny"? Yeah, OK then - sounds like fun! We can talk about the good old days of the pizza map.
Well you got one of them right anyway. The dungarees part. Most, including myself, very rarely wear anything other than blue jeans. I`m not really UP on concrete pounder apparel.
I know you have said that you have visited Ft. Smith before, so a biker bar should be a breeze for you.
Are you taking your own meth lab with you to Ft. Smith? Awww well, on second thought, I`m sure you will want to visit instead of getting into the number one business there.
I fear the days of the Pizza map have gone forever. I still don`t understand why.Back on topic - just been reading today's news about the elections in Iraq. Clearly very well received by the Iraqis, but Lazs will be along to tell us we've gone too far - they've given women the vote too.
ROFL Well......it is a little over the top you know. :D
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Originally posted by Rolex
.....None of you have ever broached the reason for the Iraq invasion .....
yet don't discuss the reason. It's abundantly clear that you do not know the reason, but that's normal.
I got your reason right here,
Have you ever read the roprts?
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Well you are wrong about it be BS and you know it. :D
Cameras show you what those in charge, you know the ones writing the paycheck, wishs to show you.
I agree with the that the same could be said about any reporter comment. That is the point, but this guy works for the BBC for God`s sake. What do you expect him to say?
I believe what those who have been there and have fought, mingled and interacted with the Iraqui people. Reporters are like hired guns, They do exactly what those who are writing their check wishs them to do. Controversy sells big time. It usualy has little to do with whether facts or involved or not.
Well then - what do you regard as an authentic source for what's happening in Iraq? Having denounced him, do you even know who John Simpson is?
Maybe I'll see you in LT - if you can break free from your job. I know how they have you enslaved - 40hrs a week with 8 vacation days a year. :lol
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Originally posted by Boroda
My education was probably much better then your comic books.
I had Daffy Duck for my Fifth Grade teacher. He was great...:D
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well then - what do you regard as an authentic source for what's happening in Iraq?
I just answered that, but maybe I was a little slow on my edit. The answer is those who have been there, fought and interacted with the Iraqui people.
Having denounced him, do you even know who John Simpson is?
I have answered that as well. The world affairs director for --------------> the BBC. :D
Maybe I'll see you in LT - if you can break free from your job. I know how they have you enslaved - 40hrs a week with 8 vacation days a year.
Job? Is that anything like the W Word?
:lol
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Jackal - so will you take me to your chicken & pool biker bar to meet Bubba, and Bubba........... and Bubba? :p:cool:
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal - so will you take me to your chicken & pool biker bar to meet Bubba, and Bubba........... and Bubba? :p:cool:
Not many Bubbas around here. Most are just called Bro. :D
You are the one going to Ft. Smith and you want to talk to me about Bubbas? lmao
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Of course, thanks to the extra 6 months Saddam was given by Bush's decision to give diplomacy and the UN one last chance, he had ample opportunity to hide WMD materials (as well as set up his guerilla network). I've read allegations of large truck convoys passing into Syria through border checkpoints where the Mukhabarat replaced Saddam's normal border guards, and I wouldnt be surprised that's where most of the naughty bits diappeared to.
In any case, Saddam was given the chance to comply with the inspection regime, and he chose to evade and eventually defy it. If he acted like he has something to hide, then the US was justified in drawing inferences, and acting thereon. If those who were his bribed lap dogs have problems with this, well, they'll just have to find another patron. :P [I make no such allegations about anyone who disagrees in good faith with the decision to invade, btw, just certain "highly placed personages"]
Originally posted by mauser
I'm very happy the Iraqis have been given the opportunity to vote, and also proud that our forces were partly responsible for making it happen. I'm sure that they are proud of the moment as well. I'm also glad the folks that make the decisions didn't cave and yank them all out prematurely. Oh what a number that would have done on morale.
In Gen. Tommy Franks (Ret) book, he mentions meetings with King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt during the beginning of 2003 as CENTCOM CinC. King Abdullah II was quoted as saying to him "General, from reliable intelligence sources, I believe the Iraqis are hiding chemical and biological weapons." President Mubarak was quoted as saying "General Franks, you must be very, very careful. We have spoken with Saddam Hussein. He is a madman. He was WMD--biologicals, actually--and he will use them on your troops."
Later, during the opening moves of OIF, Gen. Franks mentions that they received urgent intelligence that "Republican Guard units in Baghdad had moved south to the city of Al Kut--and that they had been issued mustard gas and an unknown nerve agent."
It seems a lot of things were pointing in the direction that they were there and they were going to be used. Our forces were wearing their protective suits for the beginning of the war. But now, as to why haven't any stockpiles been found yet - don't know. Maybe Jordan and Egypt secretly wanted Hussein and his government to go down too?
+1 on the troops that made the vote happen.
mauser
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Originally posted by Jackal1
You are the one going to Ft. Smith and you want to talk to me about Bubbas? lmao
:lol:lol I was wondering about that! He says that about 70% of the guys around him are gun nuts, so I should have guessed! :p I've never been there - what's it like?
Rasker - that's pretty much how I see it. But wouldn't CIA satellites have been able to observe those convoy movements? There were also a few ships that went to sea, with speculation that they were carrying naughty bits, but that dropped out of the news.
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Originally posted by beet1e
:lol:lol I was wondering about that! He says that about 70% of the guys around him are gun nuts, so I should have guessed! :p I've never been there - what's it like?
Oh I thought you had been there before.
Well , actualy the countryside around that area is beautifull. There is a lot to see that is very enjoyable in the entire state, but Ft. Smith, in recent, years has became known for it`s high crime rate for it`s size, especialy meth labs and meth trafficking.
I think you will enjoy the state of Arkansas, but I do believe it will be a bit of a culture shock. :lol
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Originally posted by beet1e
Rasker - that's pretty much how I see it. But wouldn't CIA satellites have been able to observe those convoy movements? There were also a few ships that went to sea, with speculation that they were carrying naughty bits, but that dropped out of the news.
Satellites, by virtue of their fast movement, aren't good at keeping continuous surveillance of a given area for moving vehicles. The JSTARS type aircraft are great at looking for movements of large numbers of vehicles, but I don't know that the US would have deployed them in advance of the invasion, and don't know that the type of convoy discussed would have been distinguishable from all the sanctions evading smuggling traffic as well as any legitimate traffic. In Tom Clancy books we might be able to track each truck from a bunker in Iraq to a given bunker in Syria, but our everyday capabilities would be a lot lower.
It would be interesting to know how much risk Assad, Jr. would be willing to assume to continue hiding whatever Saddam gave him, especially since his support of insurgents inside Iraq has painted a big target on himself, the US military could brush his forces aside in two or three days, the Syrian Baathist regime has nearly as bloody a history with its subjects as that of Saddam, and regime change in Syria might well be the keystone to comprehensive peace settlements in Lebanon and Israel/Palestine. Time will tell!
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U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote :
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror
by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2)
WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.
According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.
The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.
Pending more detailed reports, neither the State Department nor the White House would comment on the balloting or the victory of the military candidates, Lieut. Gen. Nguyen Van Thieu, who was running for president, and Premier Nguyen Cao Ky, the candidate for vice president.
A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam. The election was the culmination of a constitutional development that began in January, 1966, to which President Johnson gave his personal commitment when he met Premier Ky and General Thieu, the chief of state, in Honolulu in February.
The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon Government, which has been founded only on coups and power plays since November, 1963, when President Ngo Dinh Deim was overthrown by a military junta.
Few members of that junta are still around, most having been ousted or exiled in subsequent shifts of power.
Significance Not Diminished
The fact that the backing of the electorate has gone to the generals who have been ruling South Vietnam for the last two years does not, in the Administration's view, diminish the significance of the constitutional step that has been taken.
The hope here is that the new government will be able to maneuver with a confidence and legitimacy long lacking in South Vietnamese politics. That hope could have been dashed either by a small turnout, indicating widespread scorn or a lack of interest in constitutional development, or by the Vietcong's disruption of the balloting.
American officials had hoped for an 80 per cent turnout. That was the figure in the election in September for the Constituent Assembly. Seventy-eight per cent of the registered voters went to the polls in elections for local officials last spring.
Before the results of the presidential election started to come in, the American officials warned that the turnout might be less than 80 per cent because the polling place would be open for two or three hours less than in the election a year ago. The turnout of 83 per cent was a welcome surprise. The turnout in the 1964 United States Presidential election was 62 per cent.
Captured documents and interrogations indicated in the last week a serious concern among Vietcong leaders that a major effort would be required to render the election meaningless. This effort has not succeeded, judging from the reports from Saigon.
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There's a direct parallel. Not.
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hey dead, why did you post the Vietnam thing? It kinda took the air out of this post..............
Most unresponsible, like taking candy from kids.
SHAME :mad:
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Originally posted by patrone
hey dead, why did you post the Vietnam thing? It kinda took the air out of this post..............
Most unresponsible, like taking candy from kids.
SHAME :mad:
You say that like Dead made some great point and now we are all silenced :lol
The election in South Vietnam was a bad thing? Is that what he is trying to say? I'd say it looks like the election went very well, with the people coming out in large numbers and risking their lives to vote, just like in Iraq.
One bad thing for the South Vietnamese is that the democratic government was toppled by the communist North.
Again, what's the point he was trying to make? I don't get it.
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Where's "North Iraq" in this parallel? The one that can't be attacked across the Iraqi DMZ? The one that sends North Iraqi Regulars to the South after the "VC" in South Iran get totally wiped out at Ramadan?
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proud!??
you are the most dangerous nation in the world now, superpower with over 50% of population eassy to manipulate, work like donks from 9 to 5, watch the CNN for daily bain wash, belive all chit, and go to war,
Hmm, primitive mentality
Proud for what ? you slaughter 100 000 irakian peoples for the right to vote? you should be ashamed
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Originally posted by ghi
proud!??
you are the most dangerous nation in the world now, superpower with over 50% of population eassy to manipulate, work like donks from 9 to 5, watch the CNN for daily bain wash, belive all chit, and go to war,
Hmm, primitive mentality
Proud for what ? you slaughter 100 000 irakian peoples for the right to vote? you should be ashamed
Yeah, just think how "dangerous" we have been to the world. :rolleyes:
By the way, can you speak english?
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Originally posted by ghi
watch the CNN for daily bain wash
Washing your bain takes all the flavor out. We never wash our bain. We like it fresh picked.
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Well, looking at ghi's post, one must observe that having a "primitive mentality" is far better than having absolutely no mentality at all.
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Originally posted by ghi
you are the most dangerous nation in the world now
Well Duh! Of course we are proud!
What have you got to be proud of?
(no offense to other Canadians intended)
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lets invade toronto and capture ghi and send him to the GITMO! lol
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First, don't take my oppinion like a canadian, i'm canadian citizen but not canadian blood
Sorry for my poor spelling, i try to make myself understood,working on it,
but i was born and live in Transilvania, north of Romania under Ceusescu , one of the worst dictators of the 20th century.
i know what means a dictator, i did't have right to talk, no food for my family, no freedoms. I had to wake up at 5AM stay in line for a pice of bread and milk , poverty
But we survieved, and i would better live under Dictator than to see my kids blown up in pices by a stupid war
What i mean is the right to vote in IRAK did't worth 100 000 lives
Nooo, don't take me wrong, i don't hate you Americans, no other nation did soo much for the world,
you are dangerous because you suport the war, War means Death comes from Devil, peace means life comes from God
But any decision that makes widows and orphans is wrong in my oppinion
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My liberty is more important than my life.
Most americans think like this. Or at least they used to.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Well Duh! Of course we are proud!
What have you got to be proud of?
(no offense to other Canadians intended)
nothing, but i don't have anything to be ashemed for
Mighty,
do you remember the movie"" DEVIL's ADVOCATE"?
Al Pacino,the devil, is talkiking about PRIDE, the sin he loves the most in human soul?
In the Bible's legend the Devil,lucifetrus was kicked out from heaven because Pride was found in his soul?
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I have nothing to be ashamed of either.(except for that smell that is floating thru the office right now)
ghi ask the people of Iraq if the right to vote is worth the lives lost. I'd say that there are at least 8 million of them that would say yes.
Ask the terrorist if they believe their killing people is done in the name of god or not.
Yes we do support some wars but sometimes that cannot be helped. Sorry if that offends you but like it or not we don't live in a perfect world and sometimes we have to fight for what we feel is right.
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Originally posted by ghi
nothing, but i don't have anything to be ashemed for
Mighty,
do you remember the movie"" DEVIL's ADVOCATE"?
Al Pacino,the devil, is talkiking about PRIDE, the sin he loves the most in human soul?
In the Bible's legend the Devil,lucifetrus was kicked out from heaven because Pride was found in his soul?
Wheeew way too many movies for you dude. :rofl
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Satellites, by virtue of their fast movement, aren't good at keeping continuous surveillance of a given area for moving vehicles.
Ever heard of geopositional satellites?
- Just as a sidenote.
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Originally posted by Yeager
lets invade toronto and capture ghi and send him to the GITMO! lol
Yeager,
here's the point where you,half of this generation of americans have dangerous mentality
IF i don't agree with your stupid war , does't mean i'm your enemy
i read in "USA today " that 80% of americans don't have pasport,
You guys have to travel more to see the misery, ugly side world, and understand that peoples living with 20-50$/ month think diferent then you living with 2000-5000$/month
Soo who's next? Iran, French, Germans, Canada....
Out of 6 000 000 000 +,humans living on this flying rook only half of 300 000 000 americans suport Bush and war,that's 40 to 1.
Why do you think you are 40 times more advanced in mind,ideas, ideology than the rest of the world?
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Originally posted by ghi
Y
Out of 6 000 000 000 +,humans living on this flying rook only half of 300 000 000 americans suport Bush and war,that's 40 to 1.
Why do you think you are 40 times more advanced in mind,ideas, ideology than the rest of the world?
Holy warped statistics, batman.
You spend too much time at moveon.
that's laughable.
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the mentality that I have for this bsb and the mentality that I use when dealing with real people and real issues in a real world are two entirely different mentalities. I learned to seperate communications with strangers on the net generally, and this bsb specifically, from what really happens in life years ago. Im typing errant thoughts to the likes of you simply because I have a sometimes disturbed sense of entertainment.
and while Im at it: gschmoltz is a putz
:D
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Nothing is more addictive and entertaining than starting arguments on bulletin boards.
Well, except taunting during aerial combat.
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Siaf you really should shut up with your hatred of the USA...
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Heh nice bait Grunherz..
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I'm serious.
Grrr!
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Serious about what? About being totally wrong? Come on.
You should know better than that.
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Originally posted by ghi
Yeager,
here's the point where you,half of this generation of americans have dangerous mentality
IF i don't agree with your stupid war , does't mean i'm your enemy
i read in "USA today " that 80% of americans don't have pasport,
You guys have to travel more to see the misery, ugly side world, and understand that peoples living with 20-50$/ month think diferent then you living with 2000-5000$/month
Soo who's next? Iran, French, Germans, Canada....
Out of 6 000 000 000 +,humans living on this flying rook only half of 300 000 000 americans suport Bush and war,that's 40 to 1.
Why do you think you are 40 times more advanced in mind,ideas, ideology than the rest of the world?
First of all Yeager was joking.
Second of all the people on this big rock we only really care about the ones who live near us.
Now just because you don't agree with me doesn't make you my enemy BUT it also doesn't make you my friend.
We also don't pretend we know more or are better than anyone else. We leave that to the French.:lol
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I think I'll pay you a visit if I'll come that way (and it looks like I will.)
Edit: DOH that was for Grunherz
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Originally posted by ghi
do you remember the movie"" DEVIL's ADVOCATE"?
Al Pacino,the devil, is talkiking about PRIDE, the sin he loves the most in human soul?
In the Bible's legend the Devil,lucifetrus was kicked out from heaven because Pride was found in his soul?
It wasn't pride he was talking about, it was vanity.
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Grunherz you really should shut up with your hatred of the Europe...
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I remember watching the politburo (spelling) clapping when Stalin entered the Stage and moved to the podium.
The "members" of the Politburo were afraid to quit clapping. If they did they feared that Uncle Joes' Goonies would make a visit during the night. The Politburo did not quit applauding Uncle Joe until Uncle Joe told them to do so for fear of being executed as a traitor.
Great form of Govt. the USSR had eh? Josef Stalin made Adolph Hitler look like a girl scout. During Uncle Joes tenure...it's been intelligently estimated that 30 million Soviet Citizens came to their demise because of Uncle Joes meglomania and Paranoia.
He even executed his favorite and most loved party leader because he was becoming to popular with the people of the USSR.
Great way to Govern eh? Think Sadam Hussein would take a back seat to Stalins treachery.....by a long shot.
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Originally posted by Mighty1 [/i
Now just because you don't agree with me doesn't make you my enemy BUT it also doesn't make you my friend.
Let's say we are a group of friends, drinking few beers in a pub, but you get drunk faster ,
We go out is evening, dark we see a hot chick, you say: Let's rape her, help me guys
We all tell you No , Don't do that, that's wrong,
We try to stop you but is imposible, you are too strong, unstopable
Friendship has some limits
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Originally posted by ghi
you slaughter 100 000 irakian peoples for the right to vote?
I call Bullshirt on this. Let's see you document that number.
Originally posted by ghi
Out of 6 000 000 000 +,humans living on this flying rook only half of 300 000 000 americans suport Bush and war,that's 40 to 1.
I also call Bullshirt on this. You ASSume that all of your non-US citizen "6 000 000 000 +,humans " oppose Bush. Let's see you document that one, because its "simply redikulooseness" and you're wrong.
Originally posted by ghi
but i was born and live in Transilvania, north of Romania under Ceusescu , one of the worst dictators of the 20th century....
But we survieved, and i would better live under Dictator than to see my kids blown up in pices by a stupid war.. .
But any decision that makes widows and orphans is wrong in my oppinion
http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_texts/revolution/hasty_trial.htm
Almost 1,200 people died in the 1989 revolution in clashes with security forces, mostly after Dec. 22 when Ceausescu fled anti-government crowds in Bucharest by helicopter.
I guess you would also say that overthrowing Ceausescu wasn't worth the lives of 1200 Romanians, right? You would rather have kept living under Ceausescu right? Except, of course, that you somehow made your way to Canadian citizenship, leaving your fellow countrymen to solve the problem.
That way, members of your family couldn't possibly have been killed by Ceausescu's goons.
Originally posted by ghi
Let's say we are a group of friends, drinking few beers in a pub, but you get drunk faster ,
We go out is evening, dark we see a hot chick, you say: Let's rape her, help me guys
We all tell you No , Don't do that, that's wrong,
We try to stop you but is imposible, you are too strong, unstopable
Friendship has some limits
Let's say we are a group of friends and we are soberly reviewing the slaughter of thousands in different places around the world.
You all say "we can do nothing; it is not our place to act to save these people".
We tell you it's wrong not to stop it and we act without you.
We think you are all like the Dutch battalion in Srebrenica. We don't want to be friends with people like that. Humanity has some requirements.
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Toad
I think the 100k people he is referring to is the number quoted in a British medical journal, I believe The Lancet, as the "excess mortality" (dunno if that's the correct term - deaths over and above the normally-expected rate) which had occurred, according to their study, since the start of this round of operations in Iraq.
Death from all causes - disease etc included.
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is the number quoted in a British medical journal, I believe The Lancet, as the "excess mortality" (dunno if that's the correct term - deaths over and above the normally-expected rate) which had occurred, according to their study, since the start of this round of operations in Iraq.
====
bunch of crap if you ask me.
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Originally posted by Yeager
bunch of crap if you ask me.
Who would seriously ask you? Who out there? Who would ask you? Anyone?
Okay I'm just bustin' yer chops... don't even know what yer talkin' about. :)
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I'm unusually proud to be an American today...
Not sure where this thread got to, don't have time to read it..
Dosen't matter...
I'm still proud to be a citizen of the United States...
Carry on.....
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Originally posted by Toad
. Humanity has some requirements. [/B]
What requirements are talking about!!?
to starve and destroy 100 000 souls in the name of freedom ?!
Toad,
go in the bathroom and watch youself in the mirror, whatever you see now is not going to be there after months years, is just minerls and dust in a special arrangement comming from earth and going to earth, but the soul behind is a superior form of energy, ,
and in our "Instruction Manual", the Bible, or any other positiviste religious books the law is clear: DO NOT KILL
war is killer, primitive solution for humans to resolve the problems,
PS. i left Romania after revolution looking for better life,
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Originally posted by ghi
to starve and destroy 100 000 souls in the name of freedom ?!
Like I said, this claim is simply Bullshirt. You're pulling out of your anal vent. Prove otherwise and I'll apologize.
Originally posted by ghi
Toad,
go in the bathroom and watch youself in the mirror, whatever you see now is not going to be there after months years, is just minerls and dust in a special arrangement comming from earth and going to earth, but the soul behind is a superior form of energy, ,
I have the feeling that I understand this concept far better than most; I'm much closer to experimenting with it for reasons beyond my control. I have the feeling I understand it far better than you, for example.
Originally posted by ghi
and in our "Instruction Manual", the Bible, or any other positiviste religious books the law is clear: DO NOT KILL
war is killer, primitive solution for humans to resolve the problems,
[/b]
You'd make a good Quaker, I think. Still I wonder what you'd do if the Securitate was in that act of killing your children and you had a gun in your hand. Would you just stand and watch?
Originally posted by ghi
PS. i left Romania after revolution looking for better life,
Did you participate? Were you in the streets of Timiºoara in December of 1989? In Bucharest? If so, which side were you on? Did you stand with the government or against it?
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i'm 36 years old, in december 1989 i was student of Univesrsity of Cluj Napoca, in Transilvania was not much going on there, only 10-15 peoples died there, No , no way i was not on the goverment side,
if i would kill someone trying to kill my daughter?
Hmm, hard to say if you are not in that situation but
No,when is about life and death God said not to judge others let him do it,
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So why did you move to Canada?
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I always find that devout pacisifts have a great deal of trouble with the what if somebody is killing your child question. I think thats the point where they realize the fooloshness of their absolutist position - if only for that personal moment of internal reflection.
Being a pacifist, never kill anyone type makes about as much sense as advocating war and killing as a solution for every problem every time...
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Originally posted by NUKE
So why did you move to Canada?
As i said before, looking for better life
Before i moved here i worked 5 years in bars and restaurants on the cruise ships for Princess Cruises, i been cruissing and tasted most of the world, i choose Canada,
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Originally posted by ghi
As i said before, looking for better life
Before i moved here i worked 5 years in bars and restaurants on the cruise ships for Princess Cruises, i been cruissing and tasted most of the world, i choose Canada,
Why Canada Ghi, what did you really made Canada your choice as a new nation to live in?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why Canada Ghi, what did you really made Canada your choice as a new nation to live in?
I'm guessing that it's the first place that would allow him in.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Great form of Govt. the USSR had eh? Josef Stalin made Adolph Hitler look like a girl scout.
In the USA your girl scout are too dangerous ... IMO of course :D
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Originally posted by ghi
i'm 36 years old, in december 1989 i was student of Univesrsity of Cluj Napoca, in Transilvania was not much going on there, only 10-15 peoples died there, No , no way i was not on the goverment side,
if i would kill someone trying to kill my daughter?
Hmm, hard to say if you are not in that situation but
No,when is about life and death God said not to judge others let him do it,
Transilvania?! Is that a real place??? I thought that was all make believe Barnabas Collins and Dark Shadows stuff..it nev er dawned on me Transivilia could be a real place.
And you graduated from the University of Transivivistes ???
Dude- leave that off your resume and claim insted you graduated from Chico State. Beer bongs and fatal hazings are much more acceptable than bloodsuckers from Transvilia, or however it's spellecd. (getting frustrated heere)
In fact I'm gouing to bed cause my fingers vcan't type rihgt and I'm tired.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You say that like Dead made some great point and now we are all silenced :lol
The election in South Vietnam was a bad thing? Is that what he is trying to say? I'd say it looks like the election went very well, with the people coming out in large numbers and risking their lives to vote, just like in Iraq.
One bad thing for the South Vietnamese is that the democratic government was toppled by the communist North.
Again, what's the point he was trying to make? I don't get it.
Actually what the article points out, IMO is that an election does not equal a guaranteed democracy, especially when there is no security, or security is reliant on foreign forces.
Given that it's Tet next week, I was especially mindful that 9 months after this successful election, the US started sounding the retreat, which lead to a communist insurgent victory.
It begs the question: where will Iraq be in 9 months?
I think it's a little bit early to crank up the Ethel Merman (http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video/Music3d/merman_gypsy_everythingscominguproses.mp3). It's much more of a Doris Day (http://terrificmusic.com/files/music/Q/que_sera_sera_doris_day.ram) moment, really.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Actually what the article points out, IMO is that an election does not equal a guaranteed democracy, especially when there is no security, or security is reliant on foreign forces.
Given that it's Tet next week, I was especially mindful that 9 months after this successful election, the US started sounding the retreat, which lead to a communist insurgent victory.
It begs the question: where will Iraq be in 9 months?
I think it's a little bit early to crank up the Ethel Merman (http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video/Music3d/merman_gypsy_everythingscominguproses.mp3). It's much more of a Doris Day (http://terrificmusic.com/files/music/Q/que_sera_sera_doris_day.ram) moment, really.
If you are suggesting a complete troop pull out I would say this........It aint gonna happen.
Once again, one of the reasons we are there is not to scout for new locations for Holiday Inn. See what`s been going on next door?
I`d say this thread has became more like a Fred moment. Awwwww Ethel.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Once again, one of the reasons we are there is not to scout for new locations for Holiday Inn.
The reasons we are there are not the reasons we went.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Transilvania?! Is that a real place??? I thought that was all make believe Barnabas Collins and Dark Shadows stuff..it nev er dawned on me Transivilia could be a real place.
Well, we were talking about education at previous pages of this thread :rolleyes:
Some people seriously think that Kurgan is only a tribe from "Highlander" film.
AFAIR when pres. Clingon announced NATO bombings of Yugoslavia - he had to explain to Americans what is Yugoslavia and where it is situated, and it took about half of his TV speech... :(
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/*hallucinations from comic books skipped*/
Originally posted by Hajo
Great form of Govt. the USSR had eh? Josef Stalin made Adolph Hitler look like a girl scout. During Uncle Joes tenure...it's been intelligently estimated that 30 million Soviet Citizens came to their demise because of Uncle Joes meglomania and Paranoia.
Yes USSR was a great form of government. At least it didn't start aggressive wars for some imaginary reasons.
Comparing Stalin and Hitler shows your obvious ignorance.
30 million? Why not more? Someone already said here that Stalin killed 100 million Soviet people. I wonder why someone's still living here, when Stalin and War killed more people then the whole population of USSR at that times.
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Ghi, please, don't argue with Toad. He's a local radio. Ever tried argueing with a radio?
Toad, no offenses please ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
/*hallucinations from comic books skipped*/
Yes USSR was a great form of government. At least it didn't start aggressive wars for some imaginary reasons.
Comparing Stalin and Hitler shows your obvious ignorance.
30 million? Why not more? Someone already said here that Stalin killed 100 million Soviet people. I wonder why someone's still living here, when Stalin and War killed more people then the whole population of USSR at that times.
um. okay. lets see...where does one even begin to touch this one.
any czechs wanna chime in here? afghani's...how bout an east german?
someone? anyone?
can i get a witness?
mr. boroda. tear down your wall.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The reasons we are there are not the reasons we went.
Beetle you need to be spending this time studying the virtues of White Lightnin`.
.............and there was moonshine, moonshine to quinch the devil`s thirst. The law they swore they`d get him, but the devil got him first. :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
he had to explain to Americans what is Yugoslavia and where it is situated, and it took about half of his TV speech... :(
OK wise guy, why don`t you go try to explain ANYTHING with Monica under the podium and see how far you get.
Have another shot of Stoli and chill.
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Iraq is just the start
"To promote peace in the broader Middle East, we must confront regimes that continue to harbor terrorists and pursue weapons of mass murder. Syria still allows its territory, and parts of Lebanon, to be used by terrorists who seek to destroy every chance of peace in the region. You have passed, and we are applying, the Syrian Accountability Act — and we expect the Syrian government to end all support for terror and open the door to freedom. Today, Iran remains the world's primary state sponsor of terror — pursuing nuclear weapons while depriving its people of the freedom they seek and deserve. We are working with European allies to make clear to the Iranian regime that it must give up its uranium enrichment program and any plutonium re-processing, and end its support for terror. And to the Iranian people, I say tonight: As you stand for your own liberty, America stands with you.
Our generational commitment to the advance of freedom, especially in the Middle East, is now being tested and honored in Iraq. That country is a vital front in the War on Terror, which is why the terrorists have chosen to make a stand there. Our men and women in uniform are fighting terrorists in Iraq, so we do not have to face them here at home. And the victory of freedom in Iraq will strengthen a new ally in the War on Terror, inspire democratic reformers from Damascus to Tehran, bring more hope and progress to a troubled region, and thereby lift a terrible threat from the lives of our children and grandchildren."
WTG BUSH!
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USA will have left Iraq before the end of Mars 2005 after letting UN taking over the security. French troops will take care of the most troublesome areas: Fallujha, Mosul and Ramadi.
No matter if US-troops will "Run" or "walk" out of there, humiliated in the eyes of every sane person on this earth. Nato will be trashed after this and when Blair gets the Boot, the rest of your allies will turn their back towards you, as all countries involved, will be walking the same road as Spain: Changing Goverments in mass.
Nothing was achived and a lot of kids lost their parents.
300 billion$ multi-fiasco....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Siaf you really should shut up with your hatred of the USA...
nothing worse than the recently converted is there?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
If you are suggesting a complete troop pull out I would say this........It aint gonna happen.
Once again, one of the reasons we are there is not to scout for new locations for Holiday Inn. See what`s been going on next door?
I`d say this thread has became more like a Fred moment. Awwwww Ethel.
I presume you mean Iran going for nuclear weapons?
But that begs the question "Why does Iran feel the need for nuclear weapons?"
I suspect it may be because the US has just invaded the countries on either side of it, coupled with the observation that North Korea is being left well alone (not even a mention in the State of the Union), rather than any sinister plan for world domination or the destruction of their traditional enemy's enemy, Israel. Frankly, as the strategic and political situation is, the Iranians would be complete morons not to get nuclear weapons ASAFP: it's the only credible deterent against a US invasion within their reach. It is US actions alone which have forced them down the nuclear road.
I never said you were after Holiday Inn locations: I was always under the impression that this was to scout locations for Texaco, ExxonMobil, BP and the like, rather than Hotel chains. Hence the only ministry secured during the looting was the oil ministry, hence Iraq's oil is being set up to be privatised and sold to US & UK companies.
Still for those who are still true believers, here's some religious art for your chapel's ceiling:
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2005/02/01/steve.jpg)
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Geeez, now it`s turned into a Ricky moment. Luuuuuucccccyyyyyyyy!
This gets more hilarious as it goes on.
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Originally posted by patrone
USA will have left Iraq before the end of Mars 2005 after letting UN taking over the security. French troops will take care of the most troublesome areas: Fallujha, Mosul and Ramadi.
No matter if US-troops will "Run" or "walk" out of there, humiliated in the eyes of every sane person on this earth. Nato will be trashed after this and when Blair gets the Boot, the rest of your allies will turn their back towards you, as all countries involved, will be walking the same road as Spain: Changing Goverments in mass.
Nothing was achived and a lot of kids lost their parents.
300 billion$ multi-fiasco....
Much was achieved and more will come.
A lot of kids will get to see thier parents live and be able to live out their life.
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-dead- - LOL your religious art! :lol
Originally posted by Jackal1
Beetle you need to be spending this time studying the virtues of White Lightnin`.
.............and there was moonshine, moonshine to quinch the devil`s thirst. The law they swore they`d get him, but the devil got him first. :D
Jackal, what colour is your corn shack? I'll need to know what I'm looking for. Is there a Marriott hotel in the area? (I'll settle for a Hampton's Inn)
To answer your earlier Q, no I have never been to AR. I'll pass through OK to get there - haven't yet been to OK either.
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I'd guess that regardless of the amount of "excess" mortality among Iraqis since the US lead invasion/liberation, those figures are more than counterbalanced by the end of the children's starvation and other excess mortality caused by Saddams dviersion of Oil-for-Food money for euro-bribes and palaces during the sanction regime.
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boroda... how many people did stalin kill then? Was afghanistan a war of agression or not?
you will have to excuse us for our ignorance... most of the russians that we see here are cheap, cruel and barbaric criminals with no sense of decency.
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ghi, please, don't argue with Toad. He's a local radio. Ever tried argueing with a radio?
Toad, no offenses please ;)
I'd rather be seen as the local radio than the village imbecile.
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Originally posted by ghi
if i would kill someone trying to kill my daughter?
Hmm, hard to say if you are not in that situation but
No,when is about life and death God said not to judge others let him do it,
I was right; you'd make a good Quaker with a little work.
Now go explain your stance to your wife and daughter; I'm sure they'll understand that you'd sit idly by and watch them murdered.
As for my view, you fall squarely into the category described by John Stuart Mill:
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
Looks to me like there were better men in Romania.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal, what colour is your corn shack? I'll need to know what I'm looking for. Is there a Marriott hotel in the area? (I'll settle for a Hampton's Inn)
To answer your earlier Q, no I have never been to AR. I'll pass through OK to get there - haven't yet been to OK either.
The color and location of my corn shack is not to be disclosed. Them dang revenuers ya know.
:D
As far the Marriot...the term SOL comes to mind. lol
There is a Tawakoni Inn. The cordial owner will gracefully explain to you "Don`t put the MF`n Key in the bottom F`n lock like the rest of the F`n city slicker morons. ( Long story, but true. :rofl )
If your going from big D to Ft. Smith by the way of OK, then you will miss some great countryside. It`s just according if you would like to get there fast or do a little sight seeing.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd rather be seen as the local radio than the village imbecile.
Sorry, I tried to be polite, but if you insist on escaping political correctness - I have to agree. We, Russians, are traditionally nice with touched people.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, I tried to be polite, but if you insist on escaping political correctness - I have to agree. We, Russians, are traditionally nice with touched people.
"touched"?
by god, he aint a russian, he's a bonified southern boy!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, I tried to be polite, but if you insist on escaping political correctness - I have to agree. We, Russians, are traditionally nice with touched people.
Than you must be absolutely showered with kindness by your fellow countrymen.
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I think the Southern usage is "tetched", as in "tetched in the haid".
;)
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Ya dang tootin it is. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Looks to me like there were better men in Romania.
You have no moral right to attack Ghi.
Thanks for using your favourite distraction tactics. What Ghi meant was that Chaushesku was not worse then occupants shooting everything that moves.
BTW, that "better men" slaughtered Chaushesku and his family without trial. Not very "democratic", isn't it? Doesn't it worry you? Double standards again? Didn't it go as far as schizophrenia yet?
/*I am not Chaushesku's fan in any way*/
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Who said the Russian Propaganda train got derailed? :)
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Originally posted by JB88
"touched"?
by god, he aint a russian, he's a bonified southern boy!
Sorry, I used an electronic dictionary to find a word that gives the right impression, same as Russian "ubogiy", "yurodiviy". Maybe I was wrong.
"We don't take offences from those who are offended by god",
BTW, what did you mean by "bonified"?
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Originally posted by Boroda
/*I am not Chaushesku's fan in any way*/
Who can ?
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"bonified" = bona fide = Latin for "good faith" = genuine
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Originally posted by Rasker
"bonified" = bona fide = Latin for "good faith" = genuine
Thanks!
Sorry, I spelled "Ceausescu" as "Chaushesku", it's a direct transcribtion from Cyrillic back to Latin.
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Nor did I attack him. It's a simple observation.
In reference to the John Stuart Mill quote, the "better men" were the ones that threw out Ceausescu. ~1200 of them died doing it.
Ceausescu's socialist paradise wasn't too bad? Better than "shooting everything that moves?" Who "shot everything that moves?" I mean, besides Ceausescu's Securitate?
They had a "trial"; the same type of trial most tyrants get. You won't find me saying Ceausescu's trial was done correctly, despite your trying to incorrectly portray my position that way.
It should have been public and it should have been before a legitimate court. It probably should have been delayed until the new government was established by the people in a popular vote. In other words, years later perhaps.
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I, for one, would like to nominate Boroda for the Bagdad Bob Award.
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Airhead,
i'm honest, maybe too stupid honest for this BB
Sorry if i pss you off with my oppinion about your war,i would better SFTU, but most of Europe and the world think in the same way, but you don't care anyway
TOAD
why do you think God connected the best moments, the highest feelings, sensations we can get in life with the sexual act,
now that pleasure is connected with creation of another soul,
life is in you to create life, not to destroy it
O yes, Kruger from "Highlander" got the same orgasmatic pleasure killing
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Originally posted by ghi
life is in you to create life, not to destroy it
And yet, by your own admission, you'd stand idly by as the Securitate killed your daughter, the life you created, even though you had the power to save her.
Sorry, I'll never understand guys like you.
I'd kill anyone or anything that threatened the life of either of my children, without remorse, as fast as I could. Or die trying.
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Originally posted by ghi
Airhead,
TOAD
why do you think God connected the best moments, the highest feelings, sensations we can get in life with the sexual act,
now that pleasure is connected with creation of another soul,
life is in you to create life, not to destroy it
O yes, Kruger from "Highlander" got the same orgasmatic pleasure killing
Either that or God meant there to be HO's ...
I wonder if that would work in court?
Maybe we were meant to go around busting nuts all over the place?
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Originally posted by Toad
I think the Southern usage is "tetched", as in "tetched in the haid".
;)
bless his little heart.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd kill anyone or anything that threatened the life of either of my children, without remorse, as fast as I could. Or die trying. [/B]
maybe i would do the same, but you never know untill you are in that situation , surviving instinct is stronger than any logic
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Tell me, ghi, in your view should WW2 have been fought?
Obviously, the only way to stop the Germans was to fight and kill them.
From your view, should the Allied nations have just let the Germans take over without resisting?
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Originally posted by Toad
Tell me, ghi, in your view should WW2 have been fought?
Obviously, the only way to stop the Germans was to fight and kill them.
From your view, should the Allied nations have just let the Germans take over without resisting?
Yes Toad,i know you are right,WW2 had to be fought, the world in my imagination is imposible
Since Cain killed Abel, in bible's legend , the history of the mankind is just, wars and bloodshed and does't have anything to do with the positive thinking
you can see and feel the power of the dark side,the devil, the contrary of positive anywhere in history , present and daily life
Now you are a strongest nation,hard working, smart, technological advanced nation, i always admire you americans,
You guys made it to the moon!! Can't you make it in human minds,is closer than the moon, to fix or improve the chips?
I read that the meaning of life is evolution in minds, ideology, not only technologic, here you should make some investments for the safer world not in antibalistic missile
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Originally posted by ghi
Yes Toad,i know you are right,WW2 had to be fought, the world in my imagination is imposible
OK, now we both agree on something. It is impossible.
Now you have to decide if you want to be the Dutch Battalion and stand and watch the slaughter or if you want to stop it despite the risk to yourself.
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friggin kansans.
couldnt pick a side.
called themselves a free state.
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Originally posted by Toad
Now you have to decide if you want to be the Dutch Battalion and stand and watch the slaughter or if you want to stop it despite the risk to yourself.
Toad, Iraqi resistance have made their choice too.
Just as Yugoslavian pilots who flew one-way missions against agressors.
For their meaning of freedom.
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Boroda,
looks like we both lived communist regims, don't you think Marx, Lenin's ideas are impossible for our selfish souls? there are allways going to be rich and poors
remember when they taught us in schools that capitalist are the bad monsters? but from my experience communists, capitalists were all the same ,good and bad, they all sux,( i mean the politicians)
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Originally posted by ghi
Boroda,
looks like we both lived communist regims, don't you think Marx, Lenin's ideas are impossible for our selfish souls? there are allways going to be rich and poors
remember when they taught us in schools that capitalist are the bad monsters? but from my experience communists, capitalists were all the same ,good and bad, they all sux,( i mean the politicians)
Agreed.
As for communist society - I do believe that it is possible. Not through social revolution, but through progress in technology and human mind. In fact modern European democracies are building Communism. The only thing I can do to help building Communism is work for the benefit of the people, the humanity. I see Communism as a kind of religion.
Please, understand that most of the people don't know what the hell I am speaking about. They were told that "communism" is something evil where Stalin was killing Jews.
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so what you liberated commies defining as freedom is this:
freedom is my ability to force you to believe in what I believe or I will kill you?
If so I hope communisim comes back and sucks you all back in behind the wall. Seems we were better off then anyway.
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Originally posted by Yeager
so what you liberated commies defining as freedom is this:
freedom is my ability to force you to believe in what I believe or I will kill you?
If so I hope communisim comes back and sucks you all back in behind the wall. Seems we were better off then anyway.
:( I said it: You were told that "communism" is something evil where Stalin was killing Jews.
"freedom is my ability to force you to believe in what I believe or I will kill you?" - what have led you to this conclusion?
I am not a member of Communist party. I just believe that if I do something for everyone - it will be good. If I have a chance to do something for all - i'll prefer to do it. Maybe even at my own expence.
As for "forcing to believe" - it's impossible. Killing people who don't believe in one "Party Line" wasn't practiced here, regardless to what you have been told.
And I am not commie, and there was nothing to liberate me from. Thank You,
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I have come to find that most of the problems lie in the people who exploit the forms of government, economic systems etc not the actual types of government or systems. There are bad apples in every bunch and good ones.
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Dang, just when I think boroda is a commie he comes out and proves he is just a regular nice guy :D
B
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Link to report:
http://www.epic-usa.org/Portals/1/Lancet_report_on_iraqi_mortality_before_and_ after_2003.pdf
I believe this is the original article - beware copyright as the BMA site itself requires a subscription. Skuzzmeister please edit as required.
You'll have to copy & paste the above into browser, remove the space before "after".
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Originally posted by JB88
friggin kansans.
couldnt pick a side.
called themselves a free state.
You need to read up on your Kansas history. Most of the pro-slavery folks crossed the border from Missouri to vote and to later fight.
Wanna go into Civil War history? I'm game; it was one of my areas of interest in my youth.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, Iraqi resistance have made their choice too.
Yep.
It's pretty clear that
A: They are in the extreme minority
B: They are ruthless murderers in the vein of the one we replaced
C: The majority of Iraqis ignored their threat to "wash the streets with blood".
D: Zarqawi shot himself in the foot with his "We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology,” comment.
Of course, I can see where you'd agree with Zarqawi.
Anyway, they've made their choice and they will have to accept the consequences. Freedom's an awfully powerful thing in the hearts of men. Try to stop it and you get run over, usually.
I think Iraq has a chance now and they've got the first bit of momentum.
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as the terrorist cheekboness kill more and more of their own, they lose
what was it today, 12 men dragged off a bus and shot in cold blood?
oh yea, they are brave "freedom fighters".. :rolleyes:
their days are numbered as are the crazed pal nutbags
peace and freedom win out in the end
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Originally posted by ghi
Airhead,
i'm honest, maybe too stupid honest for this BB
Sorry if i pss you off with my oppinion about your war,i would better SFTU, but most of Europe and the world think in the same way, but you don't care anyway
Woha...I was just goofing on the Transylvania thingie and wasn't pissed a bit....drunk, maybe, but not pissed. :) (BTW Boroda, I may not be able to find Transylvania on a map, but I noticed YOUR country seems to be shrinking. :D )
Anyway I've been against this war from the very beginning, and if you look it up you'll see I've been outspoken here in the O'Club in voicing my opposition because I DO care and I felt it was the wrong course of action for America to take.
However, I also believe we are now committed to see this thing through, and I believe our intentions are noble. We aren't empire building, we deposed a tyrant- and the voter turnout convinces me we did a good thing.
I, too, was proud to be an American watching the Iraqi election. And I believe to suddenly leave, or even announce a timetable for withdrawal, would compromise our mission...we have to be, officially at least, committed for the duration.
I hope it works.
Don't you?
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Originally posted by Toad
Nor did I attack him. It's a simple observation.
In reference to the John Stuart Mill quote, the "better men" were the ones that threw out Ceausescu. ~1200 of them died doing it.
Ceausescu's socialist paradise wasn't too bad? Better than "shooting everything that moves?" Who "shot everything that moves?" I mean, besides Ceausescu's Securitate?
They had a "trial"; the same type of trial most tyrants get. You won't find me saying Ceausescu's trial was done correctly, despite your trying to incorrectly portray my position that way.
It should have been public and it should have been before a legitimate court. It probably should have been delayed until the new government was established by the people in a popular vote. In other words, years later perhaps.
Hi, Toad,
And what about Ceausescu's wife ?
I guess, it was the same fair trial as for the wife of Mussolini ? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Yeager
so what you liberated commies defining as freedom is this:
freedom is my ability to force you to believe in what I believe or I will kill you?
If so I hope communisim comes back and sucks you all back in behind the wall. Seems we were better off then anyway.
Yeager, please define your notion of communism in five words. Then ask Boroda to do the same. I guarantee that both of you are talking about different things because the four out of five words in both your's and Boroda's difinitions of communism will be different. Or maybe five out of five ! :D
So, what were you talking about ? Communism ?
What Communism ? :confused:
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Originally posted by Raider179
I have come to find that most of the problems lie in the people who exploit the forms of government, economic systems etc not the actual types of government or systems. There are bad apples in every bunch and good ones.
:aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
I have come to find that most of the problems lie in the people who exploit the forms of government, economic systems etc not the actual types of government or systems. There are bad apples in every bunch and good ones.
Yup...exactly. Bad dictators like Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini give the really kind and benevolent dictators like Saddam and Park a bad name.
Anyway who wants to take the time to be a free person and vote if you have a really, really good Dictator, or King, or Chief, or Emperor to make your decisions for you?
It's much easier to be a subject- ask any Euro. :rolleyes:
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what?
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Airhead
i hope the life of the peoples of Irak is going to improve, after more than 10 years of starvation and war, they had enough, But i don't think soo, Irak need another dictator to keep together 2 crazy religious minorities
I was watching Bush last evening sending stong warning to Iran , kind of declaration of war, and in a country with freedom of speech, like United States, those apes applaud him 30 sec., but none stand up and say: "NO, MR.president we don't need another war"
3rd Anticrist , (a king with turban ,defender of islamic law,how Nostradamus describe him),did't arrived yet, but american dangerous politic is going to create him,
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Originally posted by genozaur
And what about Ceausescu's wife ?
This wife, Elena?
In July Ceausescu's wife, Elena, is elected to full membership of Communist Party Central Committee. In 1973 she becomes a member of the Politburo and is made head of the personnel section, giving her the final say on party promotions at all levels throughout the country.
Many observers believe that Elena becomes the real power behind Ceausescu's dictatorship, particularly in it's later years, as Ceausescu becomes weak and ill.
I'd say she should get the same trial I suggested for her husband.
It should have been public and it should have been before a legitimate court. It probably should have been delayed until the new government was established by the people in a popular vote. In other words, years later perhaps.
Or are you going to pretend that Elena was a total innocent?
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Originally posted by ghi
Airhead
i hope the life of the peoples of Irak is going to improve, after more than 10 years of starvation and war, they had enough, But i don't think soo, Irak need another dictator to keep together 2 crazy religious minorities
I was watching Bush last evening sending stong warning to Iran , kind of declaration of war, and in a country with freedom of speech, like United States, those apes applaud him 30 sec., but none stand up and say: "NO, MR.president we don't need another war"
3rd Anticrist , (a king with turban ,defender of islamic law,how Nostradamus describe him),did't arrived yet, but american dangerous politic is going to create him,
Must have been a very good harvest season up there this year. :D
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Originally posted by Toad
This wife, Elena?
I'd say she should get the same trial I suggested for her husband.
It should have been public and it should have been before a legitimate court. It probably should have been delayed until the new government was established by the people in a popular vote. In other words, years later perhaps.
Or are you going to pretend that Elena was a total innocent?
She did not kill anybody. But she was killed for her membership in the Communist Party Central Comittee.
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I think you need to do a bit more research into the Ceausescu's "family business".
You really believe she didn't know what was going on and wasn't complicit in the whole thing?
I'm sure she never pulled a trigger herself but being part of the command structure is the same thing.
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why do you think God connected the best moments, the highest feelings, sensations we can get in life with the sexual act,
See? Even God uses pre-emptive strikes.. He created the condom.
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I have to agree 100% with Jackal1. It's NOT every day I see or meet a patriotic true American like him, I
! you forever Jackal1. You are 100% Right. Martlet, that comment you made, "Keep mourning deaths of your failed nation" You are ****ed up beyond Recognition. Your 1 sick case you *******. We have many men and women dying over there doing what is right. Giving Freedom to the people that needed it for more then 50 years. America has MANY freedoms. One of which too many people take advantage of and get away with, and that is the "Freedom of Speech". Too many people in this country do NOT believe in America because they have never seen the horrors of dictatorship in other countries. The people that disagree with everything the Government does and disagree with War at all costs and those who choose to be Liberals, is all why America could fall apart one day. Jackal1, You, Me, and the other Patriotic Americans in this world are a Dying Breed. I just wish many more were like us. Once again, I you, and the other proud Americans.
I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN...
WHERE ATLEAST I KNOW I'M FREE.
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I thank you sir and I salute you in return.
Being given the gift of being American is a wonderfull thing.
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Jackal! Can you have your corn shack repainted by 14th April? (Just waiting to hear from Bubba in Ft. Smith before the exact date becomes known) Also, I'd like to try eating grits. I've never had a grit. ;):cool:
orangebeet1e@yahoo.co.uk
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal! Can you have your corn shack repainted by 14th April? (Just waiting to hear from Bubba in Ft. Smith before the exact date becomes known) Also, I'd like to try eating grits. I've never had a grit. ;):cool:
orangebeet1e@yahoo.co.uk
ROFL
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And for those of you thinking the USSR and Russia is so great, hmm... take a look around yourselves and your neighborhoods. Russia is a sad case. Russia is losing alot. USSR lost everything expecting to be so great and powerful buWHAHAHA!!!!! Oh and umm.. (smirks but keeps a straight face), USSR lost in Afghanistan. (Sorry but I must laugh at that one).
P.S. In Russia i'd have to be careful sleeping at night that a chechen rebel (terrorist) didn't sneak in to slit my throat. Another thing you don't have "The freedom to do what you want and not worry about anything". That's what we're fighting for, so the T's don't come to us and we can do what we want and sleep at night not worrying about al-qaeda numb nuts kickin the doors down and ransacking places.
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Wolf,
I know you are new...but be careful who you alienate in your first week.
Respectfully.
Wolf
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Is Airwolf a red-neck? Sounds like one... :eek:
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Originally posted by beet1e
Is Airwolf a red-neck? Sounds like one... :eek:
This was the 250th post on the topic ' I'm unusually proud to be an American today... '
(posted by the certified Briton). :rofl
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Originally posted by AirWölf
And for those of you thinking the USSR and Russia is so great, hmm... take a look around yourselves and your neighborhoods. Russia is a sad case. Russia is losing alot. USSR lost everything expecting to be so great and powerful buWHAHAHA!!!!! Oh and umm.. (smirks but keeps a straight face), USSR lost in Afghanistan. (Sorry but I must laugh at that one).
P.S. In Russia i'd have to be careful sleeping at night that a chechen rebel (terrorist) didn't sneak in to slit my throat. Another thing you don't have "The freedom to do what you want and not worry about anything". That's what we're fighting for, so the T's don't come to us and we can do what we want and sleep at night not worrying about al-qaeda numb nuts kickin the doors down and ransacking places.
Dear AirWuff,
It may be easy for you to enjoy the relative safety of the Garden State, but we, the Don Cossacks of the Brooklyn stanitsa, who work in Manhattan and lived through 9/11, are still a li'l bit worried about the "T's".
As for you, I would recommend to keep on sitting under the peach-tree waiting for an apple to hit you in the head.
:p
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Originally posted by Toad
I think you need to do a bit more research into the Ceausescu's "family business".
You really believe she didn't know what was going on and wasn't complicit in the whole thing?
I'm sure she never pulled a trigger herself but being part of the command structure is the same thing.
Toad, in your opinion, what is the better way to dispose of the evil woman - to shoot her or to hang her ? Or maybe both ?
I would say, let her rot in jail till her last day.
After a fair trial, of course.
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wow now that Ny was attacked you think only New Yorkers are the ones to be scared? BS. Everyone in this country can be scared because the T's can attack anyplace anytime. All I am saying is that this country lives freely and that Russia shouldn't talk by saying America is such "Dictators". There are days that i think, "What are the T's next target in the United States?" but ya know what, I don't let it bother me because if I do i won't live happily. Oh and who ever said I am a redneck, what makes you think that, because I hunt and fish? good. I am also part british, being born in the United States but my family was born in England. I lived in England for awhile, but came back to the US to my home in NJ.
P.S. Yeah I may be new but that sure as hell is NOT gonnnna stop me from speaking my opinion. I have the "Freedom of Speech" too. Take me for who I am or don't take me at all. I don't care, just speaking the truth. I'm not gonna hide behind a computer monitor just because I am "New". Sorry, just kinda get agrivated sometimes. :)
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Still here, and still proud to be an Amerian :aok
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Originally posted by Otto
Still here, and still proud to be an American :aok
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's a typo...
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yowch Airwolf! Way to jump in :)
First, the O'club is a joke, try not to take any of this spewed garbage for anything other than text on a page. They cast bait and troll for a reaction. This has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself or even sanity. (infact, not many of the o'club posters fly any longer). After a month or so, you might see the goings on in the o'club are boring, and you'll move on, or begin to troll yourself. Avoid that :)*
Second, welcome to AH... the game... yeah, it's here somewhere... somewhere behind the arguing neo-cons/neo-libs/neo-retards.
*Taken from the Malaclypse the Younger's Honest Book of Truth[/i]
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Actually, the O'Club can be a very interesting place with a lot of very smart people posting some pretty interesting things.
There are also a lot of dumb arses who never seem to try to discuss anything in a serious manner.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, in your opinion, what is the better way to dispose of the evil woman - to shoot her or to hang her ? Or maybe both ?
I would say, let her rot in jail till her last day.
After a fair trial, of course.
As I said previously, they should have held a public trial in accordance with their laws.
She should have been sentenced according to their laws. I don't know if they hang, shoot, imprison or whatever their criminal women.
Left to my choice, I'd imprison her for life and let the families of her and her husband's victims come everyday for "spit hour" where they could spit in her face. Just a thought.
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Seriously Nuke! I totally agree! wowzers!
I think it would be fun if we formed an o'club squadron. Seriously, I want a serious discussion through vox. It could be fun. Lets do this. Who is the serious CO? Seriously, an o'club squadron... for a serious game that we'd seriously never fly. Seriously. I want to have a serious discussion. I think it could be interesting and I could seriously learn a lot. I'll pay your subscription... seriously for an o'club squadorn. I think it would be great. Lets do thisI think it can work. I think it would be fun. seriously.
But seriously, the scary part is that some actually buy into the retardedness that spews forth. I cringe at the thought of someone forming a black and white image from this stench.
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wow Oct....what are you talking about?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's a typo...
No.. just too much wine....
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(http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg)
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(https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/RussianHeritage/13.ST/SCMEDIA/9.16a.gif)
Stalin and Roosevelt at Potsdam
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Originally posted by NUKE
Actually, the O'Club can be a very interesting place with a lot of very smart people posting some pretty interesting things.
There are also a lot of dumb arses who never seem to try to discuss anything in a serious manner.
:rolleyes:
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LOL Octavious I'll agree with you now on that m8. It seems to be all nonsense and people looking to start quarrels on people. Cheers and hope to see ya in the skies!