Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Manedew on January 30, 2005, 03:03:28 PM
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http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0129-27.htm
Stands to my reasoning that they should be held to the same laws we are....
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I wonder if Clinton would be out yet. Or Kerry. Or Hillary. Or Daschle.
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Actually No. I am glad that law enforcement is allowed to lie. They solve and stop a lot of crime through doing exactly that.
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I believe the exact phrase is "above the law".
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Originally posted by Manedew
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0129-27.htm
Stands to my reasoning that they should be held to the same laws we are....
Agreed (http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/13/RonBrown2.htm)
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I'm sorry Liberals. You do both so much that I'm actually surprised you haven't figured the difference out yet.
There **IS** a difference between being wrong, and lying.
For example, George Bush told us that Hussein had large stockpiles of WMD's. To the best of our Knowledge through CIA and all that, he thought it was right. But as of right now, we haven't found any WMD's, so he was wrong.
For example, Bill Clinton lied about all his sexual affairs and the like to the public. He **KNEW** what he was saying to the grand jury was perjury and what he said wasn't the truth. But he said it anyway. So he was lying.
And as much as I'd love to put the Clintons away for lying, some pansy attorney cut him a deal so that he couldn't be punished for it.
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Now if you can only get Bush to Admit he was wrong lol
maybe there can be some kind of deal struck. Clinton goes to jail for lying if Bush will admit some mistakes have been made.
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I don't believe Clinton's sexual escapade caused deaths. The republicans managed to spend over $10 million dollars investigating him and all they came away with was a stained dress.
The current administration however has managed to spend over 1,300 American lives in search of non-existant WMD'S and declare it a rousing success.
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Originally posted by rpm
I don't believe Clinton's sexual escapade caused deaths.
Neither did Martha Stewart's.
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Originally posted by rpm
I don't believe Clinton's sexual escapade caused deaths. The republicans managed to spend over $10 million dollars investigating him and all they came away with was a stained dress.
The current administration however has managed to spend over 1,300 American lives in search of non-existant WMD'S and declare it a rousing success.
yea but why split hairs over this ;)
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Originally posted by rpm
I don't believe Clinton's sexual escapade caused deaths. The republicans managed to spend over $10 million dollars investigating him and all they came away with was a stained dress and and an immature liar for president.
The current administration however has managed to spend over 1,300 American lives in search of non-existant WMD'S and declare it a rousing success.
When was the search for WMD declared a rousing success?
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You can't handle the the truth.
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Originally posted by rpm
I believe the exact phrase is "above the law".
as well as charismatic and well spoken.
:rolleyes:
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The current administration however has managed to spend over 1,300 American lives in search of non-existant WMD'S and declare it a rousing success.
They exist(ed)
The republicans managed to spend over $10 million dollars investigating him and all they came away with was a stained dress.
Clinton embarrassed us as a nation, and the position of POTUS w/ his adultery. He perjured himself..... How can you possibly be so flip about it? If he were a republican, you'd have demanded impeachement, criminal trails, and a beheading.
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Clinton embarrassed himself but GWB made the same to your whole country. Small difference.
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Funny, I haven't yet been embarassed by GWB.
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Originally posted by Staga
Clinton embarrassed himself but GWB made the same to your whole country. Small difference.
Please, explain how he embarrassed us?
I am proud that President Bush stands up for what he believes in, it makes me feel better about the direction this country is headed.
If you are refering to Iraq, which I am sure you are, tell me where the embarassment exists? In case you have not heard, Iraq held it's own free elections for the first time in 50 years. There is no longer a murdering tyrant in power there, with him gone, the truth comes out about the millions of people he brutally murdered. All this comes out because the US, GB, and a few other nations chose to stand up and say enough is enough. Far more than the UN ever thought of. Oh wait, you are still wanting to see a smoking gun, well, the fact remains that we found evidence that Hussein was still pursuing the ability to field WMDs and was just biding time to start the programs again after the UN gave up like it always does.
Back to this whole embarassment thing? Exactly why should we be embarassed, when people like you stood by and did nothing while this Sadaam Hussein charade continued.
IMHO, it is you and people like you that should be embarassed.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
yea but why split hairs over this ;)
Exactly, what's one USMC KIA matter to you, eh? :aok
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Staga likes to give variety in his statements. Here's an example, using truth and falsehood together quite well:
Clinton embarrassed himself(true) but GWB made the same to your whole country(false). Small difference.
Edit: I could care less that Clinton embarrassed himself, he embarrassed everyone in our nation who possessed even a modicum of pride and morality. Those who weren't embarrassed or offended by his actions are morally corrupt beyond redemption.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Exactly, what's one USMC KIA matter to you, eh? :aok
I dont have to justify your statement with a response.....even though I just did.
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Originally posted by Steve
They exist(ed)
Clinton embarrassed us as a nation, and the position of POTUS w/ his adultery. He perjured himself..... How can you possibly be so flip about it? If he were a republican, you'd have demanded impeachement, criminal trails, and a beheading.
As for their existance, there has not been any proof that they did or do. UN weapons inspectors never found any prior to the invasion. Conni Rice's "high grade" aluminum tubes that had absolutely no use other than for enriching uranium turned out not to be so "high grade" and have uses other than nuke.
As for Clinton's witchhunt, that's exactly what it was...a witchhunt. The investigation started with republicans upset over "Whitewater" and wound up with bupkiss. Instead of gracefully admitting defeat, Ken Starr wanted to milk his high paying role as Joseph McCarthy and after finding nothing over and over again finally went with a bit of information aquired illegally (the phone tapes Chewbacca Tripp made) and tried to embarass Clinton personally. It was none of our business what happened between two conscenting adults sexually. There were no laws broken. Did Clinton lie under oath? Yes he did, about his personal life. Did Reagan lie under oath? Yes he did, about drug deals for hostages. Did Nixon lie under oath? No, he knew it was game over and quit. Bit of a difference, don't you think?
My point being, if it were a republican cheating on his wife, I could care less. It is none of my business.
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Originally posted by Staga
Clinton embarrassed himself but GWB made the same to your whole country. Small difference.
I got an idea how about you worry about your country and when we want your opinion we will promptly invade you in search of WMD's and then ask you for it.
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Originally posted by RTStuka
I got an idea how about you worry about your country and when we want your opinion we will promptly invade you in search of WMD's and then ask you for it.
I don't see how that's relevent considering the US never did that to anyone.
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I was just trying to make the point that we have taken care of ourselves long enough with out anyones help. I think we have done a damn good job so I just wanted to let outsiders realize that we really dont care what they think.
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Originally posted by RTStuka
I got an idea how about you worry about your country and when we want your opinion we will promptly invade you in search of WMD's and then ask you for it.
lol man you should write for THE DAILY SHOW
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There were no laws broken. Did Clinton lie under oath? Yes he did, about his personal life.
There are laws against lying under oath and Clinton broke them. he was also impeached for lying to the grand jury, not for getting a blow job.
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As for their existance, there has not been any proof that they did or do. UN weapons inspectors never found any prior to the invasion.
Ask Iranian vets from the Iran-Iraq war if there was any proof that WMD existed. Or maybe ask the Iraqi Kurds.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iraq/Chemical/index_2826.html
UNSCOM's final report to the UN Security Council noted a number of outstanding issues arising from efforts to verify the accuracy of Iraq's declarations. These included:
discrepancies regarding Iraq's use of CW during the 1980s
550 artillery shells filled with mustard agent declared to have been lost shortly after the Gulf
a large number of R-400 aerial bombs
a lack of information regarding Iraq's production of VX agent and its plans for the use the agent
inadequate accounts of the disposition of precursors used in the production of VX
On 30 September 2004 the ISG released its final report on Iraq's WMD programs. Its key findings regarding Iraqi chemical weapons programs were as follows.
Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted and conditions were judged favorable.
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.
Iraq's CW program was crippled by the Gulf war and the legitimate chemical industry, which suffered under sanctions, only began to recover in the mid-1990s. Subsequent changes in the management of key military and civilian organizations, followed by an influx of funding and resources, provided Iraq with the ability to reinvigorate its industrial base.
The way Iraq organized its chemical industry after the mid-1990s allowed it to conserve the knowledge-base needed to restart a CW program, conduct a modest amount of dual-use research, and partially recover from the decline of its production capability caused by the effects of the Gulf war and UN-sponsored destruction and sanctions.
Iraq constructed a number of new plants starting in the mid-1990s that enhanced its chemical infrastructure, although its overall industry had not fully recovered from the effects of sanctions, and had not regained pre-1991 technical sophistication or production capabilities prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF).
ISG uncovered information that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) maintained throughout 1991 to 2003 a set of undeclared covert laboratories to research and test various chemicals and poisons, primarily for intelligence operations.
ISG investigated a series of key pre-OIF indicators involving the possible movement and storage of chemical weapons, focusing on 11 major depots assessed to have possible links to CW. A review of documents, interviews, available reporting, and site exploitations revealed alternate, plausible explanations for activities noted prior to OIF which, at the time, were believed to be CW-related.[6]
What should really concern people is the 1.5 tons of VX gas that is unaccounted for. That much VX gas could kill alot of people. I posted links in another thread (the one about Iran) that show just how much of SH's stockpiles are unaccounted for. Some are VX gas precursors.
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Originally posted by rpm
My point being, if it were a republican cheating on his wife, I could care less. It is none of my business.
Look up Senator Packard, see how he got the swift boot for his infidelity
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Conni Rice's "high grade" aluminum tubes that had absolutely no use other than for enriching uranium turned out not to be so "high grade" and have uses other than nuke.
Hey pull your head out of the sand. Or is it your ass? Every relevent nation said they had wmd, INCLUDING Clinton's administration. If we were mistaksen about WMD, it wasn't the Bush admin, it was just about every admin.
Can you, just for a moment put aside the fact that you hate Bush and that you are happy no WMD were found so he would look bad to just consider.. for a moment consider, that the Iraqi people are better off now than they were when Saddam was in power? Shall I post pictures of the mass graves, rape rooms, gassed Kurds? Can you possibly admit that this is ultimately good for Iraq?
My point being, if it were a republican cheating on his wife, I could care less. It is none of my business.
Well we just differ here. I prefer my President to be a morally sound and ethical man whereas you could care less.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hey pull your head out of the sand. Or is it your ass? Every relevent nation said they had wmd, INCLUDING Clinton's administration. If we were mistaksen about WMD, it wasn't the Bush admin, it was just about every admin.
Show me one Inspector's report saying they were in violation prior to the invasion.
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Can you possibly admit that this is ultimately good for Iraq?
You just can't do it, can you?
Show me one Inspector's report saying they were in violation prior to the invasion.
They violated the cease fire agreement almost daily.
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But you can't show me one weapon inspector's report saying they had WMD prior to invasion, can you? Whether this is a good thing is yet to be determined. An anti-american regime is still a very strong possibility.
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Whether this is a good thing is yet to be determined. An anti-american regime is still a very strong possibility.
well keep your hopes up but I think you're mistaken and once again, as a liberal, you'll be on the wrong side of history.
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Originally posted by rpm
But you can't show me one weapon inspector's report saying they had WMD prior to invasion, can you?
Sure I can. the UN has lists of which WMD they destroyed prior to invastion.
However, you can't show me one report explaining what happened to tons of unaccounted for WMD, prior to invasion or since.
The fact is that there WHERE WMD in Iraq that where never accounted for by the UN or anyone before or since the invasion. You think they dissapeared into thin air?
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Originally posted by NUKE
The fact is that there WHERE WMD in Iraq that where never accounted for by the UN or anyone before or since the invasion. You think they dissapeared into thin air?
Hey NUKE, Hans Blix took em all, they are all kept in sweden, now, come and get some......:D
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Originally posted by rpm
But you can't show me one weapon inspector's report saying they had WMD prior to invasion, can you? Whether this is a good thing is yet to be determined. An anti-american regime is still a very strong possibility.
The way Iraq organized its chemical industry after the mid-1990s allowed it to conserve the knowledge-base needed to restart a CW program, conduct a modest amount of dual-use research, and partially recover from the decline of its production capability caused by the effects of the Gulf war and UN-sponsored destruction and sanctions.
ISG uncovered information that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) maintained throughout 1991 to 2003 a set of undeclared covert laboratories to research and test various chemicals and poisons, primarily for intelligence operations.
Saddam was trying to keep his WMD programs alive, that much is known.
What isnt known is where 1.5 tons of VX gas is, or where the missing R-400 aerial bombs are, or where the 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas are, or where the thousands of tons of VX precursors are. Iraq admitted to having these things. Their destruction has never been accounted for. In fact, they havent been accounted for at all. These items are in fact missing. I believe they are out there somewhere.
RPM, show us some proof that these items are either irrelevant to WMD, or that they were destroyed, or accounted for. Fact is, you wont be able to. Even the UN weapons inspectors found these discrepancies.
I would bet the farm that if VX gas is ever used in a terrorist attack and the gas is traced to Iraq that you will be screaming for Bush's head (again) and blaming Bush for not finding the stuff. You are so blinded by your hatred for Bush and all things republican that you cant allow yourself to look at things objectively.
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Originally posted by patrone
Hey NUKE, Hans Blix took em all, they are all kept in sweden, now, come and get some......:D
If just Nuke goes to Sweden to *get some*......you Swedes can probably take on one guy ;)
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Originally posted by LePaul
Look up Senator Packard, see how he got the swift boot for his infidelity
Yup old Packwood and Clinton were cut out of the same bolt of cloth.
shamus
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Originally posted by Steve
.......the Iraqi people are better off now than they were when Saddam was in power? Shall I post pictures of the mass graves, rape rooms, gassed Kurds? Can you possibly admit that this is ultimately good for Iraq?
Some people don't feel things are so simple in this world.....
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=605289
also ask yourself... is it worth, by some estimates, 100,000 dead Iraqies, nearly 2000 dead americans so far from this(not even counting private contractors, protestors etc over there)
So 'ultimately good'? ..... that's very questionable ... no matter how well Iraq turns out......the cost is great
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Originally posted by Elfie
If just Nuke goes to Sweden to *get some*......you Swedes can probably take on one guy ;)
Yes, but do you think I am kidding? I am not... I can get a hold of tons of WMD´s tomorrow. If I can do this, dont you think the a terrorist could do the same?
The whole discussion is just idiotic and you USA guys, just dont have a clue about anything at all.
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also ask yourself... is it worth, by some estimates, 100,000 dead Iraqies
How many would have died at Saddam's hand had we left him in power? You happily ignore the fact that Saddam was murdering, torturing, and raping 1000's upon 1000's, then list an article from ONE woman. ROFL
100,000 dead.. mostly terrorists and thugs left over from Saddam's reign.
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The whole discussion is just idiotic and you USA guys, just dont have a clue about anything at all.
LOL.
I have a clue about one thing: We live in the most powerful nation in the world, and you don't. Take it! Impotent tard.
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Originally posted by Steve
LOL.
I have a clue about one thing: We live in the most powerful nation in the world, and you don't. Take it! Impotent tard.
Yes I have a clue, that you guys dumped like 100,000 of tons of Wmds left over from both WWI and WWII, they lay there 20 min drive away from my house, waiting to erude or for someone to "come and get" em.
A very potential threat and very easy to obtain. Talk about spreading WMDs. You have no clue about anything and you will never have.
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Originally posted by patrone
Yes I have a clue, that you guys dumped like 100,000 of tons of Wmds left over from both WWI and WWII, they lay there 20 min drive away from my house, waiting to erude or for someone to "come and get" em.
A very potential threat and very easy to obtain. Talk about spreading WMDs. You have no clue about anything and you will never have.
HAHAHAHAHA
PWBOSMBS
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Originally posted by patrone
Yes I have a clue, that you guys dumped like 100,000 of tons of Wmds left over from both WWI and WWII, they lay there 20 min drive away from my house, waiting to erude or for someone to "come and get" em.
A very potential threat and very easy to obtain. Talk about spreading WMDs. You have no clue about anything and you will never have.
HAHA sorry for saving your bellybutton and not being courteous enough to clean up after ourselves. I guess we were to busy picking up all the dead soilders that lost their lives.
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Clinton wasn't being investigated for Perjury, he was being investigated for several cases of Sexual Harrassment. He committed perjury in the process.
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Originally posted by patrone
Yes I have a clue, that you guys dumped like 100,000 of tons of Wmds left over from both WWI and WWII, they lay there 20 min drive away from my house, waiting to erude or for someone to "come and get" em.
A very potential threat and very easy to obtain. Talk about spreading WMDs. You have no clue about anything and you will never have.
Didnt germans invent the use of Wmds in modern warfare? mustard Gas and other stuff. By the way you got your facts screwy. Most of the mustard gas and the like got dumped into the oceans after the war. U.S./German/Britian. Anything that is in your country currently is probably from the cold war although I doubt your accuracy as to what is stockpiled where and who it belongs to.
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Originally posted by patrone
Yes I have a clue, that you guys dumped like 100,000 of tons of Wmds left over from both WWI and WWII, they lay there 20 min drive away from my house, waiting to erude or for someone to "come and get" em.
A very potential threat and very easy to obtain. Talk about spreading WMDs. You have no clue about anything and you will never have.
Care to show some proof?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Care to show some proof?
Nevermind, I googled for it.
As usual, your facts are twisted. For one, very few of the dump sites can be verified. Most of the exact locations of the dump sites is unknown. For another, the USA dumped very little of the captured German stockpiles. Great Britain and the former Soviet Union dumped the majority of the weapons. Third, it was a common, accepted (and thought to be safe) practice to dump unwanted chemical munitions into the sea. Dumping unwanted chemical weapons into the sea was an accepted practice from the end of WWI up into the 1970's. Virtually every country that has had chemical weapons has participated in this practice.
I doubt that you could find any useful WMD's on the seafloor now. Most chemical weapons have a useful shelf life measured in years. Mustard gas in a notable exception to this in that it has a shelf life measured in decades.
From one search result: http://greennature.com/article1038.html
Scientists Debate World War II-Era Chemical Weapons Dumped In Baltic Sea
Following World War II, thousands of tons of German chemical weapons were dumped into the Baltic Sea. Today, some scientists argue that the submerged weapons pose no imminent threat. Others, however, insist that there is no way of knowing whether an ecological catastrophe is around the corner. A particular concern, they warn, is the fact that there are no records to help locate some of the dumping sites.
• Coastal Index
In 1945, the Allies seized large arsenals of chemical weapons that had belonged to the Nazis. The arsenals contained some 300,000 tons of mines, grenades, aerial bombs, and artillery shells filled with mustard gas and other poisonous compounds. Britain and the Soviet Union used the Baltic Sea as a depository for the leftover arsenals.
Vadim Paka of the Institute of Oceanography in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad says some 35,000 tons of chemical weapons were dumped in the Baltic after World War II. The weapons were deposited in three areas -- one near Lithuania and Latvia (Gotland Deep), one near Sweden (Bornholm Deep), and one near Denmark and Germany (Little Belt). At the time, ecological concerns were minimal. Many believed the seabed was the safest place to deposit chemicals.
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rgr that elfie...Info I saw said most of the containers would have eroded by now and the chemicals disapated into the oceans. Not very good for the oceans but at least no terrorists or lunatics can get a hold of them.
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Originally posted by Raider179
rgr that elfie...Info I saw said most of the containers would have eroded by now and the chemicals disapated into the oceans. Not very good for the oceans but at least no terrorists or lunatics can get a hold of them.
Terrorists and lunatics (like Patrone) would need to run salvage operations in most cases. Salvage operations near the known dump sites would be easily spotted.
j/k on the lunatic thing Patrone (I couldnt resist ) ;)
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LOL Elfie.
Fishermen will catch a couple bombs about every week. They are only reporting their catch of the bomb if it is leaking, otherwise they just dump it into the sea again.
And from the guys I know, that made actual divings into the "dumps" there is no containers, everything is just laying spread out on the bottom of the sea.
No need for a "salvage operation" to get a couple up to the surface.
One thing is what newspapers might report: One thing is reality.
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Depends on the dump site Patrone on whether or not the stuff is just laying there. The Soviets just dumped the munitions themselves into the sea. The British scutteled entire ships full of munitions. As far as the 32,000 tons that the US dumped, I didnt see any information on how the munitions were dumped. The British dumped over 175,000 tons which is probably why they just scutteled the ships carrying the munitions. Much easier to just sink a ship than pushing all that stuff overboard.
The hard part now would be finding munitions that 1) Are not leaking, 2) that still have viable chemicals inside them. Even mustard gas left over from WWII will not likely still be effective. You would most likely need salvage operations to find usable munitions if any still existed after sitting on the ocean floor for 60 years.
*edit* fixed a couple typos
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My point is, that 1 bomb in the wrong hands is enough to cause damage. And that this presents a serious threat itself. And to get a couple of bombs up, you dont need a "salvageship".........
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I understood your point all to clearly as soon as I verified the fact that chemical munitions were routinely dumped into the sea as a means of *disposal* for close to 60 years.
Patrone the hard part isnt just bringing one or two bombs to the surface. It's finding one intact, (not leaking) AND with chemicals inside that are still functional. Best chance for a chemical that is still functional is mustard gas. While mustard gas can cause death, it has a pretty low death rate and probably wouldnt be used by terrorists. Sarin or VX gas is the most likely choice of terrorists since those two gases would cause widespread death.
I think the best chances of finding usable munitions would be on the ships the Brits sunk. The ships themselves will help protect the munitions. Finding the individual ships will prove to be a chore as well since no records were kept of the dump sites.
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Oh yeah, dont worry about any VX gas being found offshore from your home, it wasnt invented until much later.
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Originally posted by patrone
My point is, that 1 bomb in the wrong hands is enough to cause damage. And that this presents a serious threat itself. And to get a couple of bombs up, you dont need a "salvageship".........
Sorry patrone everything I have seen says mustard only stays viable for a few decades. When was WW2 over? 60 years ago. That is more than a few. Yes if they were kept in optimum storage facilites they might still have some potency. But you can forget that stuff on the bottum its junk.