Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saintaw on January 31, 2005, 07:00:06 AM
-
Just saw this note on the local paper, US police have placed an order for these to replace the current handguns (I suppose those are Berettas?)
I'm looking forward to try one in April.
Sorry, Linkee in french... but you can google it for translation :)
Linkeeee (http://www.dhnet.be/index.phtml?content=http://www.dhnet.be/dhinfos/article.phtml?id=114396)
(http://www.dhnet.be/pictures_news/art_31255.jpg)
We do other nice things than beer and chocolates :p
-
lazs?
-
there is no US police force
-
That looks kind of odd for a handgun design. Odd trigger guard, and looks to be a very larg hand grip. And looks to be a ugly knockoff of a glock..
-
Originally posted by Suave
there is no US police force
Yes yes yes... ok, but if you use a little international immagination, I am sure you know what I mean. or are you still fed with a spoon ? :p
-
Well Laz probably would've said the same thing I did.
What city's police dept ? Link didn't work for me.
Personally If my life depended on it I would rather carry a revolver. Automatics are only as reliable as the ammo that's in it.
I'm not too impressed with the 5.7, you want a pistol to have stopping power, not penetrating power.
-
Not purchased for a city police force... FBI or ATF or Customs, or some other group of Feds.
-
I've never seen a cop carrying a barreta. Cops can carry their personaly owned weapon. Mostly I see glocks, 1911s, and SW revolvers.
-
...En réalité, le Five SeveN est la version pistolet de la très célèbre arme automatique, le P 90. Le nouveau joujou de Herstal est destiné aux Etats-Unis, où la police fédérale a passé commande pour ses agents. Il apparaît en effet que le Five-SeveN est déjà immergé dans le milieu...
Yes, it looks like the FBI (Federal police?).
Main point seems to be that the bullets will go through bullet proof vests. I thought this was an ammunition feature, not a gun feature.
-
the trigger guard is european style. They worry about using the gun with gloves on there. The feds have a history of jumping into untested and mostly worthless pistol designs.
I think that If I had to use a bottleneck cartridge it would be a .357 sig. That round looks like it was designed specificly to penetrate soft armor and kill as many bystanders as possible.
lazs
-
I personally know some folks high up in the US government's protection forces that are using this:
(http://www.cmmginc.com/cmmg_images/tbl_images/Receivers%20Firearms/FN_P90.jpg)
They seem to like the round for making people change their minds about doing bad things. Of course, it could be the ROF instead of the round itself.
-
Yep, looks like they tried to come up with a rifle cartridge that would fit in a pistol.
One of the selling points of that round is that it can defeat a kevlar helmet. I guess that's good if you're at war with the USA or the cylons.
-
While we're on the subject of firearms. I was checking out a website about silencers. It turns out that they're legal to own and use in most states.
Now I think I'm going to get one of those ruger 10/22 rifles with the integral silencer. Ya know for hunting rodents.. at night.. on my neigbors rabit farm.
-
This round also generates a flat trajectory, enhancing accuracy and allowing a high hit ratio out to 200 meters.
The 5.7 x 28mm will penetrate soft body armor up to Level IIIA. The full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet is designed to be stable during flight, but goes “base over nose” inside the target, greatly improving terminal ballistics (target incapacitation) and avoids overpenetration.
The 5.7 x 28mm can also be ordered in subsonic loads, training rounds, nonexpanding, hollow points, and tracers.
It could be a real good pistol round, if this stuff is true.
-
It is based on the FN P90 indeed. (reading from the fn website: http://www.fnherstal.com/ ... they sure have some nice toys)
-
most small caliber rounds are touted as being able to "tumble" on impact causeing horrendous damage... this is seldom true.
I think the main reasonj for such a gun is the lowering of standards to the point that most police are small or female and recoil sensitive. The round probly generates very little recoil.
lazs
-
Yep, sounds like a pistol that will do m16 style damage, bad guy still shooting at you with 4 holes in him.
For a pistol I would rather have something that throws a big heavy chunk of lead and dumps most if not all of it's energy into the target.
-
yep... I would agree. Was talking to the swat guy at the range and he told me of a fellow officer who took 3 44 mag rounds to the back while wearing their new armor. The guy survived but was paralized from one round that impacted over the spine. He is recovering the use of his legs tho.. Swat guy said it looked like all the rounds penetrated even tho they didn't... massive tissue damage. I am a big 44 mag round fan.
Another time... at the range.. the cops were practicing fireing from cover... they were using car doors on junk cars they had moved out there.... when they left I put six rounds of 44 mag 250 grain cast lead semi wadcuters into the car door... all penetrated clear through... They looked a little sheepish the next day when using the door for cover.
lazs
-
The disscusion on what caliber is the ultimate service round has been going on for about little over 100 years.
There are many new issues and a lot of undergoing work to solve the problem of criminals using bodyarmour.
One of the answers might be to switch to a "faster" bullet like the 5,7, but this has some issues as well. It has to stay in the body, without penetrate and also make as much damage possible to create "woundshock".
The ultimate handgun would be one that could switch between 2 diffrent calibers or types of bullets, but it would make a very cumbersome design.
IIRC Russian have a revolver with this feature for anti-terrorist use and for to stop cars.
And, you dont need a 44 mag. to shoot through a cardoor, 9mm works just as well, heck, even a 22 long will pass through......:lol
-
Originally posted by Saintaw
Yes, it looks like the FBI (Federal police?).
Well, if the FBI is going to use it, it must suck.
-
Yeah, the bullet will go through a bullet proof vest, but even when it gets through IT'S STILL A ****ING .22 CALIBER BULLET!
Most useless gun ever.
Btw, I have seen Berettas, but a majority of Kimbers.
The thing about bullet proof armor is that it only stops penetration of the bullet. It doesn't stop energy transfer.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
The feds have a history of jumping into untested and mostly worthless pistol designs.
10mm
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Yeah, the bullet will go through a bullet proof vest, but even when it gets through IT'S STILL A ****ING .22 CALIBER BULLET!
Most useless gun ever.
The thing about bullet proof armor is that it only stops penetration of the bullet. It doesn't stop energy transfer.
IIRC, M16 is a ****ING .22 Caliber gun.
And what you say about about bodyarmour is not completly correct. It depends what kind of Armour. But a biger caliber would be as a sledgehammer, cause the enegy transfer is not enough.
I prefare biger caliber guns, all in all, but for policework, or I might say "special policework" there are situations when a 44 mag won´t be the ultimate gun, it might even be totaly useless in some cases.
I think the 10 mm Swedish Norma is a good choice as "allround" FBI , but the 5,7 to be used as a suplement.
There is a development going on with a Submachinegun that can switch from 9mm to a 6,5 mm, still it is a to big gun for "everyday" use.
-
patrone... to correct you slightly... A 44 mag will go through BOTH sides of an older American car. 9mm or 22 or 32 or 45 or most other things will go through the door skin, that is true but... They won't go throught the door skin, the rolled down window or it's braces and the door bracing and door panel/armrest.
If you are in a situation where a 44mag is "useless" then you really shouldn't be using a handgun for the situation.
lazs
-
As I have conducted ceveral test on bodyarmour for the use of UN in Bosnia (russian origin). 222, 357, 44 mag, 9mm, 30-06, 38 special, shootguns, you name it. I have seen the result with my own eyes and conducted the shooting as well.
I will claim that a 44 mag, will not shoot trough even the Class 2 west (without the keramic plates or steelplates).
It will knock the guy on his *** but not kill him, disable him (it might disable him, but might is not prefarable).
Theres one cure, aim for the head or the legs, but this is a true phycological thing, no one will do it. When facing a criminal with bodyarmour, the 44 mag, is totaly useless. I rather have a 9mm in that case. It has a biger chance of penetrating.
-
what loads were you using in the 44?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
what loads were you using in the 44?
lazs
I can not answer you on straight hand about this. This was more then 10 years ago. It was "standard" Norma factory loads fired in a Desert eagle. It had some problems to reload at times, so maybe it was a little "weak". Semi wadcutters
Anyway, the 44 mag, didnt even dent the soapblock, whitch the 9mm P did (m/39 B was the "best", it penetrated. It even made a very serious dent in the steelplate)
-
aargghh... *mumble*.... damn liberals...... *arrrafmmmble*
-
Knocking the bad guy down and removing him as an immediate threat is the point. Whether the injury is fatal or not is a non-factor.
That's why I don't like the small caliber pistols--they are plenty lethal, but they don't have much in the way of immediate knockdown power. It's no help if the injury is fatal, if the guy can still kill a couple people before dying (look up the 1986 Miami shootout as an example of what I mean).
I use a .45 USP. I might consider carrying a .40, but no way I'd go with something as small or smaller than a 9mm.
J_A_B
-
I totaly agree with you J_A_B, 9 mm might lack to much of that "knock down" power that could be needed in a critical moment. How ever, 5,7 is bought by a reason, not just as a new toy. I think that FBI has just a little bit more knowledge then anyone on this bord when it comes to "knock down" power, bodyarmour and their special needs of this gun.
SissiGuns for sissipeople? I dont think so.......
-
"I think that FBI has just a little bit more knowledge then anyone on this bord when it comes to "knock down" power, bodyarmour and their special needs of this gun. "
It's no coincidence that the particular shoot-out I brought up was an FBI affair. They make mistakes too. Alternatively, the new pistol might work out fine. I just wouldn't want to be the first guy who gets to find out.
Incedentally, I like the extra-wide trigger guard. The HK I carry has a similar guard and it really does help.
J_A_B
-
The USP is a very fine gun indeed, I am not completly comfterble with its ergonoms, I like the Tanfoglio and the good ol´1911 .45 apc a tad better, but thats just me. And when it comes to revolvers, S&W are the thing here.
-
Wasn't the original development of this round with a 10mm case necked down to a 5.56. ON the semi-auto test pistols the receiver face was being destroyed by micro fractures due to the recoil power during the chambering cycle.
-
Ok I found it, became the .224 BOZ by CDS.
http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/ppw.html
-
Thanks Bustr, good reading.
-
In the original article I read back in the 90's about the development of the .224 BOZ, it was a knee jerk reaction to the LA bank heist shootout. The need was for a cartrige that could be chambered in a issue size semi-auto to be used by special units against terorrists and armored bad guys. The british gov was even interested in it. The original testing, befor the receiver and slide was damaged at about 100 rds, could put a round through one helmet and a duty issue vest at the same time. I think they were set up at 25 to 50 yards. The round would over penetrate and go almost 100yds. Testing in the UK found that it would pass through a helecopter or a hummer. At close range maximum combat armor was penetrated. Problem was the load that achived these results damage the pistol. Eventually a special slide and receiver was developed in california out of either tungstine or titanium that could withstand the punishment. After that point in the 90's I heard the UK liked where it was going, and were talking to HK about developing a light full automatic around it.
So now comes FN with a 9mm cartrige necked to 5.7 that is not a traditional semi-auto pistol size. I wonder how much the development direction for the 5.7/28 was a response to the .224 BOZ?
-
Wow, good questions Bustr.
Theres been an ongoing development since long time back with this kind of rounds. Since beginning of 70´s. I dont know if 224 toz was the first, but I doubt it. Just look at any wildcat, as this is what it really is. Necked down pistol ammo is no news, Mauser 7,63 (tokarev 7,62) is one and I think that Bergman had a very powerful "export" variant, that was necked as well in early 1900, IIRC. The german 7,92x33 is also something semiliar.
I think they have been down in 4mm as well, but it might seem difficult to get a small bullet like that stabile, it must be some kind of "flacette".
Theres also trails going on with a 6.5 undercalibrated 9mm submachinegun at Bofors for police useage. You can switch ammo while you shoot from 9mm to undercalibrated.
-
No, 5.56's (are supposed to) shatter. Hence it's more then a .22 . It causes massive flesh wounds.
But .22's don't. They make tiny clean holes.
The FN 5-7 is a useless gun. Yeah, it'll punch through armor, but you'd be hardpressed to find any armor on anyone's face!
-
Recoil is one of the main reasons cops use 9mm's anymore. BTW, most forces I'm familar with require standardized firearms. AZ DPS (state troopers) use Sig's, the sheriff's use Berrata's, most of the local PD's use Glocks.
I forget where I heard it, but I had heard that one of the reasons the NYPD went to .38's long ago was that most of their officers were being shot with their own guns. They had hoped that this would make that more survivable. Don't know if that's a fact, but silly **** like that from the higher ups wouldn't surpise me.
But anyways, the problem with most officers isn't the size of the cartridge their carrying, it's the fact they don't hit the target. In almost every shootout I've looked at from our local officers, they fire off a ton of ammo and don't hit crap. And the reason is that most departments don't practice half as much as they should. It's just not stressed near enough.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, 5.56's (are supposed to) shatter. Hence it's more then a .22 . It causes massive flesh wounds.
But .22's don't. They make tiny clean holes.
The FN 5-7 is a useless gun. Yeah, it'll punch through armor, but you'd be hardpressed to find any armor on anyone's face!
the messure 5.56 equels the messure, .22, sorry man....Its just common facts
-
Yuck,,, Glock.....BARRRRFFFF......I rather have a cold guiness
-
"Recoil is one of the main reasons cops use 9mm's anymore."
Another reason is a lot of guys would rather carry a nice light Glock than an "anchor" like a 1911 or a Ruger or such. Here in Ohio, relatively few departments have standardized weapons.
A LOT of 9mm users seem to be trading up for .40's. I haven't really tried the .40 too much, but a lot of guys seem to praise it and I intend to try one out sometime.
J_A_B
-
Glock 17 is army issue here, Could never stand the feel of it.
But, the Glock 18, thats a diffrent story.......
.40 Glock are cheap as dirt here. I would´nt take one if you payed me money.
-
I beleive the FBI and Indiana state troopers did tests with 9mm .40S&W and .45 ACP fo the ability to penetrait a car door and glass. .40S&W would penetrait and have enough energy to kill the driver.
The 9mm and .45 had issues with the armor rating of the car door. One of my old employers was shot through the door of his van in a drive by in Oakland CA with a .45 ACP.
It hit him in the side and broke his hip instead of demolishing it and rupturing an artery. Doctors told him if he had not been behind the door he would have died from trauma before getting to the ER. He was lucky, the window was open when he stopped at the light.
I have a glock 27 in .40 for the size and 9 rd mag. It's unobtrusive next to the bed. :)
-
yes, nothing wrong with the round. Never shot the .40 S&W, only the .40 AE (action express) and it was in a IMI Jericho. Pretty neat gun.
I belive the Glock might be a very good service gun, but I am a "shooter" it does not apeal to me at all, sorry.
-
Patrone, I'm calling you out as a charlottan...
-
patrone... interesting subject. I was not aware that norma made mid range rounds for a 44 mag.. also.. the FBI has a history of selecting the wrong caliber and gun. The 9mm was first adopted byu the FBI
now, on the tests you were part of. Was the person shot while wearing the vest incapacitated even if the vest was not penetrated and what rounds caused the damage. In the States.. when a 44 mag hits a police vest but doesn't penetrat it usually incapacitates the wearer.
The .40 is a very good caliber. fairly accurate and with a much better stopping record than the 9mm. Here, based on marshals study on real life shootings... the .357 is king of the one shot stops. The .40 is next. I don't know about your study but the marshal one uses thousands of real shootings to gather it's data.
As for this new caliber... it is not that new.. there really are no new calibers. Several wildcat rounds here in the states used both a .357 and a 45acp round necked down to .22 to achive very similar velocities out of handguns. They didn't catch on.
I would like to see the test results for your testing even tho it is ten years old and couldn't possibly have any modern bullet loads in it.
Oh... most 44 rounds are hunting rounds. they are made to not expand much. There are several new loads such as the rem hydroshock that will expand and cause massive damage and still retain weight.
What was the specs on the 44 load... bullet weight, velocity and barrel length? My standard load is a 250 grain 44 mag cast lead semi wadcutter at 1250-1350 fps (depending on gun) The hydroshock is a 240 jacketed HP at about the same.
What you are saying about your tests is useless if you don't tell us what the ammo was (not just caliber) and what it was fired out of and into.
Here... my 44 (and everyone elses) easily outpenetrate any 9mm round. Also.. I can load anything from frangible ammo to solid copper armor piercing and... since it is a revolver... all in the same cylinder. If the first round of hydroshocks doesn't work then the AP one next will..
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
yep... I would agree. Was talking to the swat guy at the range and he told me of a fellow officer who took 3 44 mag rounds to the back while wearing their new armor. The guy survived but was paralized from one round that impacted over the spine. He is recovering the use of his legs tho.. Swat guy said it looked like all the rounds penetrated even tho they didn't... massive tissue damage. I am a big 44 mag round fan.
Another time... at the range.. the cops were practicing fireing from cover... they were using car doors on junk cars they had moved out there.... when they left I put six rounds of 44 mag 250 grain cast lead semi wadcuters into the car door... all penetrated clear through... They looked a little sheepish the next day when using the door for cover.
lazs
:rofl
-
I do not have the papers from the tests I conducted as this was done for a Company who hired me and my firm for consulting in a wide range of tests. Not only for bodyarmour, but for to test a whole lot of other firearm/military releated products of Russian origin.
The problem: The Nato Bodyarmour that where used by UN troops could´nt stop the bullets that where used in the Bosnian conflict. I dont remember which one it was, if it was the 7,62x54r or the 7,9x57. I do remember it was a round fired from a machinegun. The result was good: the bodyarmour could stop both theese and a varity of other military calibers as well. The armour where sent to Germany for labratory evaluation by UN and finelly 2500 items where delivered to UN troops in Bosnia.
As the results of this grade of body armour where very positive, the company wanted to test "lighter" armour for Police and civilian use. And I used all kinds of calibers with diffrent loads, even shootguns. The .44 mag I know and remember using only 1 load and it was from Norma. As you might understand, there was a lot of shooting and loads of diffrent types of guns used, handguns, shootguns, submachineguns and assultrifles with various twists etc, etc.
To make the story a little shorter, the sales of the civilian version was not succesful, mainly caused by the effect from the first succes with the military version.
The shooting with heavier calibers where conducted on blocks of soap with a special coating applied.
-
Those 5.7s are nasty with a capital N. Very nasty. Way way more than a pistol version of the concept behind the M16, 5.56mm rifle rounds, etc.
They punch holes in anytthing they could reasonable be expected to face in terms of armor and then they absolutely tear the sh*t out of whatever is soft behind it. There's some special design to the rounds.
And to top it off the pistol is faster and easier to control in terms of rapid firing or double taps than a 'quick and smooth' 9mm like the 92 or a CZ.
And the carbine/SMG is very easy to control even when using fully automatic fire. By easy I mean 'almost paint your name on the farm wall firing 1 handed' easy.
Lazs, you are The Gun Man do a little research on the design of the various military issue rounds for the 5.7. I don't know the specifics of why they tear people apart so bad but from first hand accounts that is exactly what they do.
Lasersailor1984 I'm pretty sure that 'patrone' was a soldier in some European or Scandanavian military.
Mike/wulfie
-
Laz2
I cant find any Norma produced pistol or rev. ammo other then a .32 and 2 diffrent 9 mm P.
I know they produced a wide range of special rounds as well as common when I was in the buisness. Even Factory loads for the .44 automag.
I am fearing that the ban of led in all ammunitions from jan 2008 has some part in this. ( Applies even to military issued ammo!)
They are working on a replacement, but it is yet to expensive to be presented in general.
Now I understand why I dont have to pay for my ammo,,,,,:lol
-
No, 5.7's don't. They are just a high velocity standard bullet.
The only thing they are good at is punching clean holes. Either through a bullet proof vest, or a stomach. A clean .22 inch hole.
However, 5.56's shatter when they hit. That's why they are more dangerous. However(another one), if it drops below a certain velocity, it becomes a .22 caliber bullet.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, 5.7's don't. They are just a high velocity standard bullet.
The only thing they are good at is punching clean holes. Either through a bullet proof vest, or a stomach. A clean .22 inch hole.
However, 5.56's shatter when they hit. That's why they are more dangerous. However(another one), if it drops below a certain velocity, it becomes a .22 caliber bullet.
Ok, can we agree on one thing, once and for all? the Messure caliber 22 is equal to the messure 5,56 mm.
The speed of the bullet, does not make it biger, it is still 22 caliber, 5,56 mm.
We are talking about normal military issue ammo and not special bullets: 223 Nato (5,56x45)? Fired in what kind of gun? What rifle twist? Lenght off barrel? And how does the bullet shatter?
In a body, a piece of wood, what?
Have you experience this? Or is it just another Urban legend (hoax)? How old are you and what kinda experience do you have with guns and shooting?
Calling me a charlettan..............
Now, prove your point.
-
The harder a bullet is the more it penetrates (taking velocity, size, etc.). The harder it is, the less it expands. A hollow point bullet or hunting bullet will expand more than a ball projo. However they wont penetrate with one. The balance then becomes having sufficient penetration to go through body armour and then do more than just poke a hole through the target. Sure it may bleed out. And shock is a *****. But it's not incapacitating immediately. Remember the comments made by the SF soldiers in Black Hawk Down. They would shoot the enemy and they wouldn't go down. They'd keep firing.
Manufactuers of hunting bullets have many different ways to try and balance penetration with expansion. Usually they will have partition-style bullet with a hollow or soft point and a solid core behind it. The bullet opens up and the core pushes it through. But hollow points or soft points wont punch through armour.
Personally, if you're depending on blood loss and shock to incapacitate a target, you need a larger caliber (make a bigger hole). This website has several very usefull balistic calculators to compare the killing/stopping power of different cartridges: http://www.handloads.com/
-
Ok guys... the round we are talking about was used in the fifties in a revolver made by Smith and Wesson only it was and still is called a 22 hornet. the ballistics are about identical. the 22 hornet was never known to be a particularly leathal round on game and is not legal to hunt small deer with in most states even out of a rifle.
Some new bullet development may make this hershel round a winner but I bet acts like everything else... a good hit with ideal conditions will make for massive damage and a bad hit will drill a litltle 22 hole through and through...
No one has completely solved the problem of penetration vs energy transfer/wound channel.
Most simply go with the "hey start big and you will allways make a big hole no matter what"... nothing wrong with that but even a 45 size hole in nothing too importand doesn't allways work and... because of recoil... it is difficult to make a round guarenteed to penetrate.... solid copper bullets are closest to big bore full caliber holes at very high velocity and penetration with managable recoil.
That being said... you need a long gun for the ninjas. A handgun should probly only be used when you really don't want a lot of penetration.
lazs
-
and patrone... I don't know but it appears that your testing was not very good. No chrongraph data.. no energy data. no load data at all.
testing was.... shooting at some vests hanging on a tree? maybe at some soap blocks? (we use ballistic gell here).
I just don't see how you got to your conclussions based on your methods unless your methods were very poor.
lazs
-
Lazs, Dune, Lasersailor are right. This was posted by Dr. Gary Roberts, a very well regarded wound ballistician at the Tactical Forums:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000050#000000
..."Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system. "
If you have access to those journals cited, they'll make for some very educational reading. The Terminal Effects forum, just like the other forums at TF are high signal to noise ratio places where professionals and hobbyists can go for information, not BS.
mauser
-
I'm talking about the standard 5.56 (.223) round Patrone. The one used in the M16. (not the AP rounds though). When it hits flesh at a certain velocity, the bullet itself shatters, causing a more damaging wound.
A regular .22 caliber bullet does not. It remains completely intact (besides a little deformation) and makes clean holes.
-
The FN P90 was designed for NATO tankers, specifically to be a compact personal defense weapon that could defeat body armor. FN P90s with gemtech mufflers were used in the japanese embassy takedown in Lima 1998 with good effect against body armor.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm talking about the standard 5.56 (.223) round Patrone. The one used in the M16. (not the AP rounds though). When it hits flesh at a certain velocity, the bullet itself shatters, causing a more damaging wound.
A regular .22 caliber bullet does not. It remains completely intact (besides a little deformation) and makes clean holes.
To my knowledge the M193 ammo is no longer used.
It has been replaced by the ss109, whitch is just a fullmetal bullet.
-
Originally posted by Saintaw
Yes, it looks like the FBI (Federal police?).
Main point seems to be that the bullets will go through bullet proof vests. I thought this was an ammunition feature, not a gun feature.
Why would they need that then?
Bullet proof vests are illegal here.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
and patrone... I don't know but it appears that your testing was not very good. No chrongraph data.. no energy data. no load data at all.
testing was.... shooting at some vests hanging on a tree? maybe at some soap blocks? (we use ballistic gell here).
I just don't see how you got to your conclussions based on your methods unless your methods were very poor.
lazs
And I am sorry that I cant remember all loaddata, ammotype and chronograhpdata, as the test did´nt belong to me, the test was payed for and bought by a company.
You name my methods to be very poor, but they where good enough for the UN/Nato.
On one Vest you could only fire one bullet, then the vest was destroyed and disposed.
And as a vest is not a very cheap thing (220$-270$), simply hanging it from a tree just are´nt really good enough.
Oh, yes, ballistic gele, that stuff you could just get at the local supermarket 10 years ago.
-
And my accusation was just proved, not by someone else, but by patrone himself. Have fun with that Patrone.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
And my accusation was just proved, not by someone else, but by patrone himself. Have fun with that Patrone.
That I am a charlattan cause I tell you caliber .22 has the messure 5,56 mm?
Or for the existant of the M193 whitch was layed of in med 80´s?
-
Originally posted by lazs2
the trigger guard is european style. They worry about using the gun with gloves on there. The feds have a history of jumping into untested and mostly worthless pistol designs.
I think that If I had to use a bottleneck cartridge it would be a .357 sig. That round looks like it was designed specificly to penetrate soft armor and kill as many bystanders as possible.
lazs
Worrying abou gloves ? I was pretty sure you guys didnt have snow or icebears :D
-
mauser,
All I can think of is that the tests you refer to dealt with different types of ammunition than is currently in use (at least in the case of the people mentioned below).
I have talked to guys fairly recently that carry the weapons in question. These guys have shot people with them. They were amazed by how badly they tore up the people they shot.
I'll see if I can get a more detailed description from them re: ammunition types.
Mike/wulfie
-
ok here is some .22 data from a 10" thompson contender handgun.
45 grain boat tail spitzer speer bullet at 2400 fps. Can you guess what cartridge(s) got these velocities? The ancient 22 jet and 22 hornet both achieved these numbers.
patrone. I don't care what you were paid or how much you spent or who paid you in your testing... You simply give no data so your tests should not have even been brought up in the discussion.
This is like me saying that in my testing I fired various calibers into car bodies and some of the .308's did not penetrate as well as the .32 auto pistol rounds... depending on how I did the test I could make that happen.
lazs
-
LOL, I see Laz2.
Like the fox said about the grapes..............
-
patrone... might I suggest "Street Stoppers" by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow?
If you have never heard of them and are being paid to conduct testing on bullet effects on humans then I am in the wrong line of work. If I could get by on your testing methods then I should be in urop getting a fat check for doing some testing..
A chronograph (bullet speed thingie) is only bout a hundred bucks... I can give you the formula for figuring out energy based on bullet weight and velocity too. Would really make you look good in the next "testing" session.
lazs
-
Nope, no more "monkey buisness" like that.
To much work, to little money. Fun while it was going on and great that it was a succes.
Shooting is going down the drain soon as well, it aint fun anymore.
I get an awfule headache after about 5000 rounds and how many times can you kill a sellmarking target?
Yes, test and see what is the "ultimate" mankilling round and handloading is just for Idiots.
-
Oh... and, don't get me wrong... I believe that any high velocity 22 that will work with varied bullet designs and weight is the perfect or, near perfect, submachine gun round.
At even 600 rounds per minute... you are assured of getting 3-4 hits on a bad guy with a short burst. recoil is light so more hits are likely... if the ammo performs at say 33% of optimal... that is, say... of three hits, 2 make little 22 caliber holes that miss vitals and bones and drill little 22 holes with small wound channels and one performs at optimal.... tumbles and destroys organs and expldes bones.... Then you have a great round and gun... I have allways been a fan of the chech scorpion for this reason.
now, use the same round in a pistol.... unless you are 100% sure of the bad guys being armored out to the hilt and for some strange reason you have no other weapon available but a handgun.... you might want to take a chance on the .22... most likely you won't get but 1 hit out of 6 or 7 shots... most likely, it will penetrate but you have maybe a 1 in 3 chance that it will immediately disable the bad guy. It won't cause much shock in most cases.
I would carry the subgun but stick with a full caliber handgun in the 500 lf lbs of energy range with about 13 inches of penetration. Personaly, I would use a 44 mag revolver with alternating hyro shocks and solid copper conical rounds but... a handgun is a crap shoot anyway on moving targets and it takes years to learn to handle recoil.
for the untrained.... small of stature or, conversly, extremely highly trained.... the .22 handgun might be the best bet... for the untrained and small... less recoil... any hit with a 22 is better than 6 misses with a 44... for the highly trained... double taps in vital areas are more possible with the 22 but by no means assured.
lazs
-
why is handloading for idiots? it is cheaper, produces more accurate and reliable rounds and can give you choices not available.
Most of the great rounds you see if not all of them started out on somebodys loading bench. Most hunters use rounds that started out as handloads... the most respected names in the bussiness use handload data including self defense rounds like the hydroshock and cor bon. How are these people idiots?
I guess if all I ever shot at was self sealing targets at known ranges using factory ammo that I had no idea of the ballistics on... I would be getting tired of shooting too.
lazs
-
Guess you might enjoy ballistics, not shooting.
so handloading is cheaper than free? I dont think so and I bought my first chronograph in end of 80´s had 4 diffrent since then, sold all or traded them for guns.
I have shoot over 70000 9mm P in my life and suffered from 1 click. Its always the "idiot" that was handloading, that are loosing the competition, cause: "click". or worse, no powder in the case....."pew"....
Boxer is pure chite......
-
ok.... so you claim that using factory ammo is free but handloaders have to spend money? You said handloading was for idiots.. Now you seem to be saying that it would be idiotic for YOU to handload because in your special little world of shooting little 9mm rounds that you don't know anything about at self sealing boring targets at known ranges is.... free? Seems like you are paying a pretty hefty price to me.
seems your way of fun drove you right out of the sport.
I have had more factory rounds fail than my own reloads. Ballistics is part of the fun.. saving money is a good thing.. watching groups shrink with different combos is fun and keeps the interest.
seems my way keeps me interested.
lazs
-
Well, As I do a lot of shooting, in diffrent ways, I learned that the main thing is to hit the target.
Fieldshooting is one special scandinavian diciplin where you shoot on targets on unknow distances, within a very short timelimit.
We do this shooting mostly during the period late fall-early spring.
For this I use the 7,65 a "hot" round and the 9 mm P.
Then theres the IPS shooting indoor with the Police, I use mostly 45 acp for this. But also 9mm P.
The 357, I use mostly for plinking on the islands, with my brother.
Then theres the 2 y Machinegun excersises every year and the "Shootproof" with the G3 and the AK-5 (FNC), also yearly.
I use to shoot a lot of Submachinegun as well, but I laid it of a couple of years ago. Same with Blackpowder.
Summer month, its targetshooting, on selfseals. And meanwhile all that: airgun pistolshooting.
I started to shoot when I was 12 years old, got my first "Proof of automaticrifle" when I was 17.
Ive shoot all kinds of guns in diffrent brands, rifles, automatics, pistols, revolvers, shootguns, Automaticcannons. grenadelaunchers, Costalbattery guns, fieldguns, recoilless guns and rifles.
The chronograph was used mainly to determinate the variations in brands and to find the "ultimate" factory load.
Please dont tell me what works and does not work for me, in my shooting.
-
I have never tried to tell you what works for your shooting. But you are a moving target. You say one thing and then changte it the next time... you talk about 9mm and 38's and olympic style 22's at targets... and now you talk about plinking and defensive shooting with .357's and .45's and everything else. First you never heard of a chronograph and now you use one all the time to see what is the best factory round? why? that stuff is published everywhere.
I don't have a clue what you do but I can't imagine anyone paying you to shoot such a large variety of guns and giving you free ammo to participate in so many shooting types.
No... it is you who is trying to tell me what and how to shoot... handloads are for idiots you say.... 44's don't penetrate as well as 9mm you say even tho.... you have.... er had... no clue as to what load you were shooting in either caliber. You don't know the specs even tho you claim to check factory loads on the chronograph. You claim to have shot 70,000 rounds of 9mm(nice even number) with only one failure of this factory ammo... this is phenonominal unheard of.
no matter what... your case is special and holds no resemblance to anything anyone I knows situation. don't shoot anything but factory ammo.... it's all free.... shoot every kind of gun there is at every type of shooting sport possible... Yet.... know nothing about ammo.
it's not that I don't believe you it's just that you are the strangest shooter I have ever heard of. I know guys who have shot nothing but hundreds of thousands of .45 ammo and use factory stuff or have people reload for em... they know nothing about ammo and don't care... they don't even pretend to. They don't pretend to know anything about any fireams except the .45's they shoot and even then... just how to use em fast and accurate.
lazs
lazs
-
oh... and people my age usually started shooting when they were 9 or ten... I was nine... by the time I was twelve I had probly put 100,000 rounds through an old High Standard Sport king with 6' barrel... we all got merit badges in the boys scouts for markmanship before we were teenagers. One of my 44 mag super blackhawks has more than 50,000 rounds through it before I quit counting .... sooo.... maybe you shouldn't tell me how to shoot either.
my guns are 20 feet from me right now and I have a good variety and factory and reloads for all of em.... plus..
I am not bored with shooting. In fact... I have at least 3 guns and 6 loads that I haven't gotten around to checking out yet... it will be fun.... run em trough the chrono... or maybe shoot paper first and then... just blow stuff up. if the load is good.... great... if not... we will just burn em up and try something else next time.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
oh... and people my age usually started shooting when they were 9 or ten... I was nine... by the time I was twelve I had probly put 100,000 rounds through an old High Standard Sport king with 6' barrel... we all got merit badges in the boys scouts for markmanship before we were teenagers. One of my 44 mag super blackhawks has more than 50,000 rounds through it before I quit counting .... sooo.... maybe you shouldn't tell me how to shoot either.
my guns are 20 feet from me right now and I have a good variety and factory and reloads for all of em.... plus..
I am not bored with shooting. In fact... I have at least 3 guns and 6 loads that I haven't gotten around to checking out yet... it will be fun.... run em trough the chrono... or maybe shoot paper first and then... just blow stuff up. if the load is good.... great... if not... we will just burn em up and try something else next time.
lazs
My next project: just picked up a Universal M1 Carbine, and ordered a 5.7 spitfire barrel for it from brownell's. I think I will go with one of those Ultimak scout scope mounts.
According to all the data I can find, I ought to be able to get performance very near .223 with that round. That ain's aying much, but we shall see...
-
Well I tried the FN P90 in Rainbow Six 3 and it sucked. Took forever to kill someone. That's proof enough for me.
-
shubie... I don't know but it would be fun to try. Maybe you can get patrone to send you a couple of hundred thousand factory rounds for testing? You can use the brass to make something neat.
I got nothing aginst people likeing one type of round over another or only likeing factory ammor or only likeing reloads.... so long as they realize that they are limiting themselves. I do it myself for various reasons but I try to stay openminded and enjoy whatever I get a chance to shoot.
lazs