Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on January 31, 2005, 02:56:51 PM
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml
A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.
Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit
Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.
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Thats actually pretty amazing, a government essentially forcing women to work in the sex industry by the leverage they have over her social benefits, benefits which the goverenment is basically addicting the poulation to. I could understand this in the middle ages or some backward seedy part of the world in asia or africa, but in the heart of sophisticated western Europe in 2005? Truly a sign of the real consequences of Europe's moral decay and one hell of an argument against the European nanny state model.
It really is quite disgusting.
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They aren't forcing her to. She can chose not to, and have her welfare checks cut off. They are using the threat of sanction, not coersion.
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And our liberals get their panties in a wad when we threaten to cut off welfare if they just kick out another cracker spawn. What would they say if welfare moms in Nevada had to go to work at the potatohouse or lose their welfare?
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Socialism is for people who allways want to have a mommy so that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their economic failures.
That's why it allways leads to national financial ruin.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They aren't forcing her to. She can chose not to, and have her welfare checks cut off. They are using the threat of sanction, not coersion.
Hm.... Weird.
Sounds like: "If you dont register as a voter, you will not recive goverment aid and meanwhile, let us just check for traces of explosives on your hands......"
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats actually pretty amazing, a government essentially forcing women to work in the sex industry by the leverage they have over her social benefits
Thats actually pretty amazing , that you belive it.
Its more like theoretical extreme.
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Originally posted by patrone
Hm.... Weird.
Sounds like: "If you dont register as a voter, you will not recive goverment aid and meanwhile, let us just check for traces of explosives on your hands......"
No it doesn't, you are adding things to my statement to fit your agenda.
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she should check it out , meet rich arabs, have fun, make big bucks , retire in 3 years.
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Originally posted by lada
Thats actually pretty amazing , that you belive it.
Its more like theoretical extreme.
So you deny that this story happend?
But hey I'm not surprised that the leftists dont see this as a problem, how could you...
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No it doesn't, you are adding things to my statement to fit your agenda.
Just because one country in Europe has legalized Prostitution, it does not mean everyone has. In my country, they jail both the customer and the prostitute, mostly the girl gets off with a warning and the guy has to shake some bars.
I visited germany in 1983, I am pretty sure prostitution was legal then. The article is just BS, thats my point. And that fits my Agenda even better.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They aren't forcing her to. She can chose not to, and have her welfare checks cut off. They are using the threat of sanction, not coersion.
They have power over her from the benefits, they can cut them off unless she takes the job as a prostitute.
Whatever the semantics are here, it's claer the goverment of a modern western european society in 2005 is clearly ordering this to woman to become a potato or face immediate negative social and financial consequences.
I find that shocking.
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She already was a prostitute doesn't she worked in the IT ?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They have power over her from the benefits, they can cut them off unless she takes the job as a prostitute.
Whatever the semantics are here, it's claer the goverment of a modern western european society in 2005 is clearly ordering this to woman to become a potato or face immediate negative social and financial consequences.
I find that shocking.
I do not see anything wrong about this.
She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.
Since she were waiter, she has been invited for interview. Sex clubs are simply legal bussines and they could need some waiters.( or you never saw waiter in Sex club?) She have right to find job herself if she doesnt like this one.
Nobody force her to sell herself.
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Originally posted by lada
I do not see anything wrong about this.
Since she were waiter, she has been invited for interview. Sex clubs are simply legal bussines and they could need some waiters.( or you never saw waiter in Sex club?) She have right to find job herself if she doesnt like this one.
Nobody force her to sell herself.
"A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year."
The governemt is forcing her to accept a job as a potato unless she wants her social and financial benefits eliminated.
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Originally posted by patrone
Just because one country in Europe has legalized Prostitution, it does not mean everyone has.
What does that have to do with anything? I don't recall saying that every country in Europe has legalized prostitution.
Grun,
"Whatever the semantics are here, it's claer the goverment of a modern western european society in 2005 is clearly ordering this to woman to become a potato or face immediate negative social and financial consequences."
So, she doesn't have to follow the order it's not like she will go to jail. She can always get a job, ya know be responsible for her actions instead of relying on the nanny state to take of here...what the hell are we doing on being on these sides of the debate anyway?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year."
The governemt is forcing her to accept a job as a potato unless she wants her social and financial benefits eliminated.
LOL, Eurostalker
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Thrawn the whole point is that the gevernemt is telling her to be a potato, to sell her body to men for sex, or lose the benifits.
The for me problem is one of morals and human rights not one of legality except that thse people have become so amoral that they see nothing wrong in having their governments order women to become potatos or face the loss of benefits the governent has deliberatyly made so vital a part of german life. Really, where on earth are the womens rights people here with all the history of women being forced into prostitution in the past.
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Originally posted by patrone
LOL, Eurostalker
No worries patrone, nobody is suggesting that that prostitution be outlawed, so be sure your job IS safe.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No worries patrone, nobody is suggesting that that prostitution be outlawed, so be sure your job IS safe.
Great to hear, GRUN, its outlawed here, you must live in Nevada?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thrawn the whole point is that the gevernemt is telling her to be a potato, to sell her body to men for sex, or lose the benifits.
No they aren't, they are asking her to be a potato. She is free to chose not to be, and to get a job doing something else that she does not find morally repugnant. Either way she will be off welfare.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
....to get a job doing something else that she does not find morally repugnant......
Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.
This is forced sex slavery sanctioned by the gov't. not much better then say turkey or serbia.
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Originally posted by patrone
Just because one country in Europe has legalized Prostitution, it does not mean everyone has. In my country, they jail both the customer and the prostitute, mostly the girl gets off with a warning and the guy has to shake some bars.
I visited germany in 1983, I am pretty sure prostitution was legal then. The article is just BS, thats my point. And that fits my Agenda even better.
Prostitution is legal in most countries in Europe(is it actually illegal in anywhere else than Sweden?). Brothels are illegal in most countries but in several they are legal and overlooked in most others.
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Originally posted by Suave
Socialism is for people who allways want to have a mommy so that they don't have to deal with the consequences of their economic failures.
That's why it allways leads to national financial ruin.
It's only one side. The other side is social guaranties to all citizens. Such as free education and medicine. This is the way, when you do not need to think, "what if I'll be fired tomorrow".
And this not lead to financial ruin always. We have examples. If you want to point it in example of Soviet Union, you are not right. The main reason of financial problem was "Cold War". And our money relief to other countries from one side and our goverment wich destroyed the whole socialism-communism idea by their burocratia and corruption.
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I'd like to hear the opinion of our german posters... my guess is there's more to this story than it seems.
Daniel
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
I'd like to hear the opinion of our german posters... my guess is there's more to this story than it seems.
Daniel
Nope, that's pretty much it.
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Originally posted by JBA
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml
A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.
Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit
Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.
The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.
Geeze! Amazing their "rational" excuse for (not) excluding prostitution.
LOL, this whole policy is morally corrupt.
This essentially forces the woman to demean herself by selling her body or cut off her temporary food and rent money (just a guess). It would be different if their were good job opportunities everywhere, but this just opens up a whole can of worms. What's next, a bio lab guinea pig? It's a job after all, eh?
edit..working in the sex industry is hardly safe. She could get exposed to many STD's particularly HIV. She could get pregnant, most likely forcing her to have an abortion.
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Alright guys, I need 10 volunteers to help me get the Memphis Belle cleaned up and ready to go. Looks like Germany needs a little 'help' treating its population right, again.
(http://www.digital-memphis.com/Memphis%20Miscellaneous/images/M266A%20Memphis%20Belle%20on%20Mud%20Island.jpg)
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A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.
Wait....if she is a "25-year-old waitress" isn't she "employed" at the moment. Or is it that she was a "unemployed waitress" and
was offered a job as a "waitress" at the brothel but refused because of conditions at the potential work place?
And did she leave a contact number?
:D
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Originally posted by JBA
Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.
This is forced sex slavery sanctioned by the gov't. not much better then say turkey or serbia.
JBA spreading this BS here does make you look cool ?
sorry but LOL!
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Originally posted by JBA
This is forced sex slavery sanctioned by the gov't. not much better then say turkey or serbia.
BS, there is nothing "forced" about it.
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No. In the past the government wouldn't cut off benefits because someone refuses an "Immoral" job.
But now, they see any legal job as a "Moral" job, hence the woman has to take it unless she wants to get cut off.
That morality issue keeps popping up everywhere! Odd that america has it and europe doesn't.
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But not odd at all that a good number of liberals simply dont get it.
I gotta wonder how they would like it if their wives or daugters just came in one day and said the local government employment office told them to become potatos and sexually service strange men or loose their unemployment benefits when national unemployment is some ridiculous figure like 12% as in Germany today and jobs are very hard to find...
It's really funny as these are prolly the same liberals who made a great scene about the great economic failiures of the USA when the Bush admin reclassified some food industry jobs as manufacturing or when it encourages older workers to seek training to be more compettive in new technologies. That stuff is bad to them. But they are so very supportive, understanding even enthusiastic when the German economics propram has failed so utterly to create an envioronement friendly to job growth that they are ordering their young women to bcome potatos or lose their benefits...
Funny chit! :aok
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You're right Grun the liberals don't get it.
And what you don't get is that you're the liberal nanny government supporter here.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But not odd at all that a good number of liberals simply dont get it.
I gotta wonder how they would like it if their wives or daugters just came in one day and said the local government employment office told them to become potatos and sexually service strange men or loose their unemployment benefits when national unemployment is some ridiculous figure like 12% as in Germany today and jobs are very hard to find...
It's really funny as these are prolly the same liberals who made a great scene about the great economic failiures of the USA when the Bush admin reclassified some food industry jobs as manufacturing or when it encourages older workers to seek training to be more compettive in new technologies. That stuff is bad to them. But they are so very supportive, understanding even enthusiastic when the German economics propram has failed so utterly to create an envioronement friendly to job growth that they are ordering their young women to bcome potatos or lose their benefits...
Funny chit! :aok
Grun, how comes you believe this crap for real?
Just tell me one nation where you have see this BS is practiced
for real, just one!
I cant believe what crap is posted here, who in gods
name
can forces anyone to be a potato?
get a live
*shaking head*
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So you deny this report that the German government ordered a young woman to take a job providing "sexual services" at a potatohouse or else lose her German governent provided unemployment benefits? All this at a time when your nation has incredibly high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You're right Grun the liberals don't get it.
i get it...its not the forcing of leeches into jobs thats the problem, its the forcing them into a job at a potatohouse, and not even giving an option of other places where she could work, though including a potatohouse as a legitimate place to work is pretty bad in itself...
shes not even out of work...or unwilling to work elsewhere...
"The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.
She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel. "
"
"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," "
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you deny this report that the German government ordered a young woman to take a job providing "sexual services" at a potatohouse or else lose her German governent provided unemployment benefits? All this at a time when your nation has incredibly high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult.
yes, its pure BS
and what with this "high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult" ?
nothing have changed since the new welfare reform,
only numbers changed, some former unemployment people who
got help from social care, didnt counted as real unemployment,
the new reform just count this people in.
So what really changed are only numbers, but everything is
same as before.
I still have my Job (where i'm really happy to work at)
and i can afford some hobbys too! and the best thing is
nobody forces me to get a job in the sex industry LOL ;)
R
GhostFT
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you deny this report that the German government ordered a young woman to take a job providing "sexual services" at a potatohouse or else lose her German governent provided unemployment benefits? All this at a time when your nation has incredibly high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult.
Still trolling on that weak hook of yours?
The article is so full of missinformation that it can not be concidered serious. Even how much you want this to be true, it simply is´nt. It is pure BS with a twist.
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Give us the real facts, please, Patrone. I found it hard to beleive myself (national media, again, please).
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So Patrone do you deny the facts as presented in tjhis report?
If so, give us the real facts of this particular story. Not generalizations of what you think goes on in Germany or what you think happend or what you hope really happened.
Just the facts of this particular story from a reliable source.
Can you do that?
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The really funny thing thing is we got two sets of Euro style liberals desperatly tripping over themselves trying to downplay this story. One group denies everyting and calls it all lies while ther other says it's a common and legal thing and that there is nothing wrong or immoral here that the governemt is just trying to get people regular jobs - being potatos...
Again, funny chit...
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It's how the facts are being represented that are getting everyone's panties in a twist.
From what I understand, if the person turns down any offering to any job, they will also lose their welfare checks.
In the past, immoral jobs were not included in this clause. However, they now are, which means that the German government sees prostitution as moral.
And yet again, we come back to that morality issue.
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This will mean that if I went to Germany to apply for a job and didnt take the job offered to me in "sexaul service" buisness, I would lose my Unemployment benifits? As prostitution is unlegal in my country, this would virtualy mean that Germany would force me to break the Law in my country in order to get money from my goverment?
Get real, the unemploment rules are the same in every EU country and I can go to any country to apply for work and getting unemployment benifits.
This special case states prostitution has been legal in Germany since 2002, this is not true, its been legal in Germany for decades.
The article is twisted and has no other connection to reality then the rule to take jobs offered to you 3 times or face a cut of your benifits for 100 days. You can say no to a job that you object to by religouse or moral standards, without getting a benefit cut.
EDIT, In the DDR, whitch was the German socialistic state, prositution was unlegal.
In West Germany, whitch was controlled by A Christian party,
postitution was legal.
To my knowledge, the same Christian party is still rulling Germany.
To call it "German socialism" is utterly wrong.
Now, sharpen you stuff GRUN.....otherwise you never catch anything
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Originally posted by Thrawn
BS, there is nothing "forced" about it.
you are correct, they are not forcing her to take the job. The are just going to cut her benifits because they consider her to be turning down a perfectly good job that is availible for her.
Sometimes you amaze me.
Wouldn't that be cool of you were unemployed and your government considered gay sex clubs a legitimate job, and one offered you a posisition offering sexual services and you refused (not saying you would), so they cut you off from benifits. No chance at benifits because the gay club offered you a job performing sexual services.
So, you HAVE to get another job because you are not going to get any benifits. Afterall, there's a perfectly good gay service job availible and your lazy arse just refused to take it ( pun intended)
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erm, if you need the money you can get any job.
Theres no reason why the gov. should pay you to not be employed.
Since prostitution is legal there then it counts as one of the thousands of avaliable job types.
She doesnt have to become a hooker or lose her gov. check..she just has to get a job.
And for a girl to enter the sex industry imo, has to either like it or be in extreme duress... and extreme duress comes after being rejected by what id say is every job out there.
the choice is always hers to make.
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No need to even get sexual about it. If a construction company offered an accountant a job digging ditches and then the government refused his benefits because he didn't take it, it is the same thing.
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NO! It is not the same thing.
Both ditch digging and accounting are moral things to do.
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"Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners"
unlike other nations, this finaly becomes the land of the free :D
this will boost this part of bussines for sure, everyone welcome!
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Ditch digging is moral and honorable, but being a CPa is pushing it...
Seriously, it is the same thing, because they are forcing you to take a job that you do not want and are not qualified for (be it on moral, physical or economic grounds).
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Dear God this is funny! cutting off a womans tit to big government because she wont spread her legs is proof that european socialism is failing.
Commie bastards!
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The point is that the government considers the sex job a viable, normal job and by that job's mear existance, the woman loses her benifits because she refused to take it ( pun intended)
That effectivly eliminates her unemployment benifits......which are designed to help you until you find a job.
Well, in this case, the benifits are yanked because she was offered this sex job and refused it. That's a fact. She lost her benifits becaused she refused a sex job. No other way around it, just a fact.
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Nuke, she refused a job that she is not "qualified" for. Had she been a prior sex worker and refused the job, there would be no issue.
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The original article in german is here http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/12/18/a0077.nf/text.
Apparently it's just a theoretical example of what could happen. The 25 year old waitress doesn't exist.
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That is kind of what I figured. You can imagine all kinds of terrible results from the US unemployment regulations too.
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Not sure what european socialism has got to do with it.
The US does provide unemployment welfare and does the US not remove that welfare if the recipient is offered a legal job and turns it down?
Or are you just allowed to sponge of the state forever (which is far more socialist)?
As I recall from living in New England unmeployment benefit was surpisingly good, some significant percent of your last salary for a year or two. Much better than the 59 quid a week I got in the UK last time I was on the dole.
The only difference here is that Germany considers prostitution a legal occupation. Now you may argue that this is much more liberal than most of the US, but it is hardly more socialist.
It's interesting that here in New South Wales prositution is also legal and the unemployment system is similar. The same problem doesn't arise however as the sex industry is considered a special case (for some reason Germany considered it too much effort to do this).
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Originally posted by Chortle
The original article in german is here http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/12/18/a0077.nf/text.
Apparently it's just a theoretical example of what could happen. The 25 year old waitress doesn't exist.
Great, just what I thought from the start, Nice troll......
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Actually, Patrone, it is like I have been saying all along. If you are offered a job which you ar not qualified for (over or under), then you do not lose your benefits. If you do not accept a job that equates to your past history, you lose you benefits. Morals do not enter the equation, and would not, even if you were a sex worker.
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Originally posted by vorticon
iits the forcing them into a job at a potatohouse,
BS, they aren't forcing her. No one is making her do it. She can choose not to work there. She doesn't have to. No making, forcing, or coersion going on.
shes not even out of work...or unwilling to work elsewhere...
"The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.
Which the hell is it? Employed or unemployed. If she wants to work as a waitress, what the hell is stopping her?
"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," " [/B]
BS rhetoric. She isn't being sent anywhere. She is chosing not to work at the brothel. Fine the government is cutting off her nanny government cheque that is paid for buy other workers taxes. Ironically she is being supported by those hard working potatos that she so decries.
Nuke,
I wouldn't know what it is like to be on welfare because I have never taken a welfare or employment insurance cheque in my life. I have worked some **** jobs in my time, and don't see any cause for anyone to ***** about wether or not the hard working taxes payers are giving the bums enough money or under what conditions.
PS, you're a commie.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Nuke,
I wouldn't know what it is like to be on welfare because I have never taken a welfare or employment insurance cheque in my life. I have worked some **** jobs in my time, and don't see any cause for anyone to ***** about wether or not the hard working taxes payers are giving the bums enough money or under what conditions.
PS, you're a commie.
And Thrawn thinks he's made a point by getting on his soapbox to tell everyone about his chity life and crappy jobs.
Thrawn, does anything you said here have to do with the fact the the girl lost her benifits because she refused to be a prositute?
( I guess It's a hypothetical situation, as noted)
Although it is interesting to hear about how you only have had chity jobs and could care less about the "bums" ( even though by living in Canada, that's exactly what your taxes are used for), I still feel you should try to remain at least in the same ballpark in regards to what's being discussed.
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Sorry if the correlation is beyond your grasp. :o
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sorry if the correlation is beyond your grasp. :o
You are not smart enough to have an argument with. Later.
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I didnt read the rest of this thread so shoot me if I'm repeating someone's post.
Two things.
1: Germany's .gov 'regulates' prostitution in a way. It requires prostitutes to have medical examinations and the proper paperwork in order for it to be legal. This is a win/win for both giving and receiving ends of the bagain. Keeps it relatively clean in some respect. Why ban it ( US)? It is one of the oldest known professions. Funked and SOB need to get something besides eachother after all. :cool:
2: If you honestly cannot find a job in one full year's time, then you should end yourself. It is written in Germany's constitution "und Arbiet fur alles" or something similar. It guarantees work; it was designed as a control measure for the masses so the 1930s great depression (which hit Germany 2nd hardest) doesn't repeat itself... or it gives the general population peace of mind atleast. That's why unemployment is a huge issue. Citizens of a socialist state have a fairly large margian to mooch from the .gov and forcing a few lazy tards to get a job and make the inefficient, bloated carcass they call socialism just a tad more efficient.
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you dolts! this IS NOT about slamming the US. We have UmpTeen billions of threads that do this. This thread is our opportunity, our obligation in fact, to shove some crap back at the euro commie dorks!
:rofl
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Originally posted by JBA
A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.
Sounds like she's *****d either way.
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Move yourself to her position. You don't work as a prostitution = you will live without welfare. That's all. Is it moral to you or not isn't interesting to employer. It will be your problem and problem of your asshoul. ;-)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats actually pretty amazing, a government essentially forcing women to work in the sex industry by the leverage they have over her social benefits, benefits which the goverenment is basically addicting the poulation to. I could understand this in the middle ages or some backward seedy part of the world in asia or africa, but in the heart of sophisticated western Europe in 2005? Truly a sign of the real consequences of Europe's moral decay and one hell of an argument against the European nanny state model.
It really is quite disgusting.
I have a problem with you when you really belive this crap.
check it closer and change youre mind, this is just another bashing against Germany.
I am not German by the way, but heck this is low level propaganda bull****e.
get laid :D
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Originally posted by airguard
get laid :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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They dont need prostitutes in USA, they solve that in other ways..................
Ofbreed is horrificly ugly, but man, they sure as heck know how to play that banjo.......
:D
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Originally posted by patrone
They dont need prostitutes in USA, they solve that in other ways..................
Ofbreed is horrificly ugly, but man, they sure as heck know how to play that banjo.......
:D
LOL
Grun seems to think it necessary to bash Europe in order to be accepted in USA.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002KEL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
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Recently, there has been a major change in the welfare system in Germany which affected unemployment statistics to a big degree. Many people who were not counted as being unemployed (but had no job for some reason anyway) are now, increasing the official number by a considerable margin.
Official numbers are closer now to the real figure which is in excess of 6M people without work.
Alongside those changes new rules for "acceptance levels" for jobs are in place which require people to either lose welfare or accept crappy jobs which they could simply turn down under the old law. Having 6+ million people without work, Germany simply can't afford that luxury anymore.
The new rules, however, are a bureaucratic behemoth and rushed into place without working out many details. The article is a worst case scenario of what might happen if people in the agency were to follow those laws to the letter without using their brain in the process.
Bottom line: If she goes to court in that scenario she'd win.
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Another piece of dubious anti-EU/UN (delete as applicable) FUD, served hot and steaming (just as Grunherz likes it apparently).
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Originally posted by Momus--
served hot and steaming
LOL now this thread is really funny, i just re-read the thread, and theres so much stuff for sig material, unbelievable! :D
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leitwolf,
How much of Germany's current economic difficulties (6m unemployed) do you feel is due to Germany having accepted the euro single currency, and having surrendered control of interest rates to Brussels?
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Originally posted by beet1e
leitwolf,
How much of Germany's current economic difficulties (6m unemployed) do you feel is due to Germany having accepted the euro single currency, and having surrendered control of interest rates to Brussels?
average Worker : 1200 € in EU
average Worker : 60 € in China
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Originally posted by straffo
average Worker : 1200 € in EU
That's the average minimum wage, right?
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I heard this but I'm not sure see this :
http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html
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Minimum wage in Spain is around 550 €
Daniel
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Per month
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Originally posted by beet1e
leitwolf,
How much of Germany's current economic difficulties (6m unemployed) do you feel is due to Germany having accepted the euro single currency, and having surrendered control of interest rates to Brussels?
It has nothing to do with the Euro, its a domestic screwup and started before the Euro was introduced.
Lacking control over the currency, actually getting out of it is more difficult in the Euro days, of course.
Having said that, the actual cause of the problems are not due to interest rates or the Euro, messing with them will not provide a long term growth anyway as the reasons for Germany's economic struggle today are complex and deeply rooted.
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I am having a problem with the title of the thread, as there is not really scialism in germany, but nevermind that.
Economic problems stem not only from the demographic problem but also from huge problems due to the reuinion with former east germany, big tax and loan burdons where created there.
Also a lot of property was given away cheap to investment groups and big western companies, a lot of real estate given away under price.
Overall i think the euro did not change much in terms of the unemployment.
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Originally posted by GScholz
There seems to be a lot of confusion about terminology like "socialism" and "democracy". Socialism is not a government form, it is a socioeconomic ideology. Democracy is not a socioeconomic ideology, it is a government form. Socialism is not the "opposite" of democracy. Socialism is perhaps the "opposite" of capitalism.
And btw. as many Americans have pointed out; the USA is not a democracy. It is a republic.
Well said, I never been able to put down to the paper the way you did. :)
Then again Im a engineer not a economist or a master in politics. :D
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Men du gjør det da faen så bra, flott skrevet og fortsett slik.
Mine innlegg blir ofte litt klønete, men er jo velment fra min side da (problemer med norsk til engelsk tenker jeg). Noen ganger går jeg også over streken men sånn er jo livet.
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Originally posted by leitwolf
It has nothing to do with the Euro, its a domestic screwup and started before the Euro was introduced.
Lacking control over the currency, actually getting out of it is more difficult in the Euro days, of course.
Having said that, the actual cause of the problems are not due to interest rates or the Euro, messing with them will not provide a long term growth anyway as the reasons for Germany's economic struggle today are complex and deeply rooted.
Fair enough - I'm not trolling, by the way.
But given that Germany is in this self created mess, would it not have been possible to dig their way out of it, by varying interest rates to stimulate the economy, if interest rates were still under German control?
My reason for asking was that OUR economy went down the crapper (twice) when we tried to follow German interest rates. - 1989, Germany economy slumped, interest rate reduced, so Britain reduced interest rate to shadow German rate, but Britain was booming. Result - too much money in the economy, borrowing got totally out of control, property prices soared to unrealistic and unsustainable values. The fuse was lit on the negative equity time bomb...
- The bomb goes off. Britain is in the ERM, but £ (GBP) was valued at too high a level. Value of GBP unsustainable. Chancellor tried to boost value of GBP by cranking up interest rates. But Britain was in recession. Property values plummeted, millions left in negative equity, thousands of small businesses bankrupted by high interest rates. Britain booted out of the ERM. GBP dropped in value from $2 to $1.53 overnight. "Je ne regrette rien" was our chancellor's epitaph. :mad:
These are the reasons I shiver at the thought of centralised currency, and centralised control of interest rates.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Joda, jeg kan da vel ikke kalle meg typograf og avismann hvis jeg skriver dårlig ... eller? ;) Jeg kan litt om alt, men ikke så mye om hvær enkelt ting.
Du skriver da bra du, gjør deg forstått og det er jo poenget. At du skriver (og høres ut) som en søring er jo ikke noe du kan for. :D
pøkk :D sender otto jespersen på deg jeg hehe ;D
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The average german would not have much of an idea anyways, since the "Giftzwerg" still lives in their media.
Believe only what we tell you. (http://medienkritik.typepad.com/)
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
yes, its pure BS
and what with this "high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult" ?
nothing have changed since the new welfare reform,
only numbers changed, some former unemployment people who
got help from social care, didnt counted as real unemployment,
the new reform just count this people in.
So what really changed are only numbers, but everything is
same as before.
I still have my Job (where i'm really happy to work at)
and i can afford some hobbys too! and the best thing is
nobody forces me to get a job in the sex industry LOL ;)
R
GhostFT
Ghost, what part is "pure BS"? Can we address the issue of the unemployed IT professional who was referred to a job as a hooker, then threatened with loss of benefits?
Are you saying it did not happen, and the news report is false? Or are you saying that our conclusions are wrong? Which is it?
Just speak to the subject, man. What do you think about the woman in the news article?
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oops...... (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006087)
Jobless, Permanently?
Long-term unemployed (12 months or more) as a percentage of total unemployed, 2002
U.S. 8.6%
Britain 23.1%
Japan 30.8%
France 33.8%
Germany 47.9%
Italy 59.2%
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Showed this article to some people at work. The first comment I got was "She shoulda taken the job, those are skills she could use the rest of her life."
My comment was, "Who wants to go in with me & open up a potatohouse in Germany? Appearently the government does the pimping for you."
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Originally posted by beet1e
[..]snip[..]
But given that Germany is in this self created mess, would it not have been possible to dig their way out of it, by varying interest rates to stimulate the economy, if interest rates were still under German control?
I think every country has their share of home grown screwups.
I was a bit sceptical myself before we switched to the Euro; we had a lot of BS floating around the press spreading fears of massive inflation. (which tends to frighten people in Germany a lot - the economic disaster and skyrocketing inflation in the 1920s played no small part in the collapse of the democracy in the 1930s and has not been forgotten, on top of that each currency is part of a nation's identity, in case of Germany the surprisingly quick post-war recovery )
There were also doubts as to who would benefit from joining the Euro zone given the fact that many countrys had "softer" money with bigger inflation than Germany, many politicians were calling for stronger regulations and higher standards to make the Euro as stable as the Mark.
The irony now is that the Euro turns out to be rock solid and it's actually Germany which can't live up to the standards they had been calling for.
I'm by no means an expert but my two (euro-)cents are:
European markets are now so strongly tied to each other that probability of a single country being able to maintain economic growth or recession out of sync with the others for an extended period of time is very low.
I'm quite sure at some point the Euro will be used as tool to ensure economic growth just like every nation's currency is.
I think it's safe to say on a short term the Euro doesnt help because a single government does not have control over it, but like I said, Germany's problem's are not going to be solved by quickly dropping interest rates a little and hope for the best, it requires a lot more than that. The Mark wouldn't have helped either.
Besides, I am a big fan of the Euro and being able to travel across Europe without the hassle of exchanging money is a big improvement. Get with the program! :D
Originally posted by beet1e
Fair enough - I'm not trolling, by the way.
No, but you do ask questions which reveal your agenda ;)
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Originally posted by rshubert
Are you saying it did not happen, and the news report is false?
yes.
what Chortle said:
The original article in german is here
http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/12/18/a0077.nf/text.
Apparently it's just a theoretical example of what could happen.
The 25 year old waitress doesn't exist.
R
Gh0stFT
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Där tog du några goa poäng GS. :aok