Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nuke33 on February 01, 2005, 02:18:43 AM

Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 01, 2005, 02:18:43 AM
I've been searching all over the internet for a picture of a WWII aircraft producing wingtip vapor trails, and I can't seem to find any.. Is that because none of them could produce them like modern day fighters?

(http://homepage.mac.com/aviationphoto/photos/DSC04473.jpg)
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: bunch on February 01, 2005, 02:33:12 AM
In many books I've read by USAAF WW2 pilots, they have stated that in their 1st squadron (which really was more like post- advanced training, usually flying P-39s stationed in the ZI or Panama) you were consided a sissy if you didnt pull contrails on your downwind to base turn.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: nuchpatrick on February 01, 2005, 07:44:35 AM
I recall reading that as well Bunch.  A book I recall reading even states you couldn't land untill you did pull contrails. This was down the road from where I live. It was called Zellwood Air Station,now its called Bob White Field....  The airport is still in service, its a single strip that run north to south. They run small private aircraft some smaller twins. Its a shame they just tore a whole mess of it down for renovation. It got beat up due to the hurricanes we had..
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: GRUNHERZ on February 01, 2005, 07:54:04 AM
IIRC the Pearl harbor movie "Tora Tora Tora"  has sme great shots of P40s making vapor trails in their live dogfight scenes with the Zeros.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Maverick on February 01, 2005, 08:59:12 AM
I also saw the P40 with wingtip vapor trails in the movie tora tora. It was just on the other night and I didn't expect them to pull that hard on a warbird like that for a movie.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: eddiek on February 01, 2005, 09:15:48 AM
I've got the "Thunderbolt" VHS from the History Channel and there is footage in it showing Jugs pullin G's and leaving the vapor trails, so yes, they were more than capable of maneuvering hard enough to produce them............
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Red Tail 444 on February 01, 2005, 09:41:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
IIRC the Pearl harbor movie "Tora Tora Tora"  has sme great shots of P40s making vapor trails in their live dogfight scenes with the Zeros.


AWWWWW      you beat me to it....great fight scenes, indeed...must have been a hoot for the pilots
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Masherbrum on February 01, 2005, 10:04:26 AM
Wonder if Robert Conrad pulled enough G's in the Corsair?  

Karaya
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: slimm50 on February 01, 2005, 10:07:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Wonder if Robert Conrad pulled enough G's in the Corsair?  

Karaya

:lol :lol
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 01, 2005, 12:14:45 PM
Well since WWII fighters were capable of producing them, I think it would be a pretty cool addition in AH.. What do you guys think?
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: john9001 on February 01, 2005, 12:47:51 PM
i don't think it had to do with "G's", it's humid air and the drop in air press at the wing tip vortices.

i have seen F1 cars pull vapor trails off their rear wings in damp weather.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Furball on February 01, 2005, 12:48:16 PM
there was a me-262 pilot that was famous for his vapour trail routine, he would pull a tight turn, then trim it to turn even tighter to produce big trails off the wingtips.

Quote
At reduced speed the Me 262 was, like the 109, easy to manoeuvre, with leading edge slats extended and the nicest of condensation trails at the wingtips.  At relatively high humidity and high speed straight and level flights there were event fog banks across the entire wing which, when at low level, could even be seen from the ground.


Lt Fritz RG Muller known as 'Kondens Muller' (vapour-trail Muller) III./JG7
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: slimm50 on February 01, 2005, 01:27:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke33
Well since WWII fighters were capable of producing them, I think it would be a pretty cool addition in AH.. What do you guys think?

Il2-FBAEP has 'em. They're cool as chit.:aok
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: bunch on February 01, 2005, 01:28:45 PM
I remember now reading about 'ol  Kondens Muller, but cant remember where...the zekes in Tora Tora Tora, those werent real zekes, were they?  I've always assumed they were AT-6s
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: slimm50 on February 01, 2005, 01:32:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
I remember now reading about 'ol  Kondens Muller, but cant remember where...the zekes in Tora Tora Tora, those werent real zekes, were they?  I've always assumed they were AT-6s

I think practically all flying zekes today are reproductions, made from AT-6s (I think). There may be 1 authentic Zeke, I'm not sure.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Lizking on February 01, 2005, 01:40:51 PM
WWIIOL has them too and they do help a lot in a turnfight.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: CMC Airboss on February 01, 2005, 01:49:49 PM
Here's a shot that I got at NAS Oceana a few years ago.  Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass was at the controls of this Kalamazoo Air Zoo FG-1D Corsair.

http://www.printroom.com/ViewGalleryPhoto.asp?userid=cmcairboss&gallery_id=60208&image_id=2

MiG
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 01, 2005, 01:54:04 PM
Fantastic.. Thanks MiG
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Flyboy on February 01, 2005, 02:20:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by slimm50
Il2-FBAEP has 'em. They're cool as chit.:aok



you know... watermelon is not cool
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Lizking on February 01, 2005, 02:33:10 PM
It depend upon how long it has been laying on the trail, flyboy....
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Red Tail 444 on February 04, 2005, 01:06:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
I remember now reading about 'ol  Kondens Muller, but cant remember where...the zekes in Tora Tora Tora, those werent real zekes, were they?  I've always assumed they were AT-6s


They were zekes, I'm pretty sure, but were replicas...in New Orleans in 2000 they had a reenactment of Pearl harbor, and a few of them were there
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 04, 2005, 01:40:55 PM
I saw prolly the same thing at an airshow in Houston.. I believe there were some replicas and some modified t6's.. I cant remember 100% though
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Gunslinger on February 04, 2005, 01:43:58 PM
how do they get them to be different colors (IE RED WHIT AND BLUE) at airshows?













;)
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: CMC Airboss on February 04, 2005, 01:47:24 PM
Smoke generators with dye in the oil is used to produce colored smoke.  Its essentially vaporizing (not burning) oil on a hot plate.

MiG
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: SaburoS on February 04, 2005, 03:03:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by slimm50
I think practically all flying zekes today are reproductions, made from AT-6s (I think). There may be 1 authentic Zeke, I'm not sure.


Last year's Plane's of Fame Airshow (Chino), they had two authentic Zekes. The one of them (air museum's own) even has the original Sakai engine.

Most planes at the airshow that were flying made relatively low level passes in front of the crowd. The Zekes stayed up so it was hard to get really good photos.

(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/A6M5_Zero_7936_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/A6M5_Zero_7997_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 04, 2005, 03:21:23 PM
Wow those are some pretty cool pics SaburoS... Ive actually got some good pictures of that same P-38 that is in the background of the first picture. I'd post them but I don't have anywhere to host.. I got the pictures several years back at the Alliance airshow in Ft. Worth TX..
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: SaburoS on February 04, 2005, 03:30:24 PM
Thanks, the P38 was flying closer. Made for better photos :)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/P_38J_Lightning_8063_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/P_38J_Lightning_8066_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/P_38J_Lightning_8076_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/PoF2004Airshow/P_38J_Lightning_7964_PoF_2004_Airshow.jpg)
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Nuke33 on February 04, 2005, 03:48:48 PM
Fantastic Photos!

What a beautiful aircraft... :aok

Got any of it giving off wingtip contrails? haha
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Mak333 on February 04, 2005, 04:13:58 PM
If any of you are into the Joint Strike Fighter program (JSF)  Its pretty damn cool.  I watched a 2 hour video of the competition between Boeing and Lockheed Martin.  Both of them produced unique designs.  The military ofcourse had requirements for the two designs to meet.  The purpose: to build an affordable aircraft that suited the Navy's, Marine's and Air Force's needs.  Both models were done very nice.  

Anyways, Lockheed ends up beating out Boeing in 2000 in the competition and will create the United State's military aircrafts for the next 40 years.  

The aircraft Lockheed came up with was F-35.  I found their design quite interesting.  One of the requirements was to be able to hover and land vertically.  Past aircraft like the Harrier used the engine exhaust to hover.  Lockheed Martin used a seperate engine called a Lift Fan.  This was powered by the driveshaft connected to the main engine.  Anyways, it worked very well.  So thats pretty neat.

The official JSF website is: http://www.jsf.mil

But yeah, I can't wait til they release the F-22 Raptor.  Due out 2006, I believe.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: SaburoS on February 04, 2005, 04:21:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke33
Fantastic Photos!

What a beautiful aircraft... :aok

Got any of it giving off wingtip contrails? haha


I doubt we'd find any owner of a rare million dollar + plane willing to subject those kind of stresses to induce them.

Here's an extreme example when you combine relatively cool weather and high humidity (Miramar 2004)
(http://www.larsenphotography.com/gallery2/albums/Miramar2004Airshow/IMG_4944BlueAngels.jpg)
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Holden McGroin on February 04, 2005, 06:09:39 PM
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/WanakaWarbirds/Corsair/BankingHardLeftVaporTrail.jpg)

All you need to do is lower the pressure in the vortex so that dew point is reached and the water vapor condenses to visible droplets so a 'fog' is formed.  

The droplets then absorb the energy to evaporate and the condensate disappears as it returns to invisible water vapor.

It can be seen on the wings of F1 cars when racing in high humidity.
Title: Wingtip vapor trails
Post by: Holden McGroin on February 04, 2005, 06:55:53 PM
(http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f-1.jpg)

Here is the image I was looking for when I stumbled across the Corsair.