Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MANDO on February 01, 2005, 02:38:39 PM
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Do you plan to redo 190s "WEP" management?
Currently we jump from "climb and combat" to "special emergency power", but we cant get "takeoff and emergency" power in 190A8, F8, D9 and Ta.
As far as I know, "takeoff and emergency" power was present in all these 190 models as max throttle power setting. "Special emergency power" was turned on with a separate switch.
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No practical reason to have it in AH. We get WEP at any alt and any time. Just use the greater-boosting WEP in emergency take-offs... Besides most people will just abuse it to save WEP.
No point in having TWO "WEP-like" systems in the same ride. Only leads to abusing/monkeying/gaming the game.
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Originally posted by Krusty
No practical reason to have it in AH.
Plain wrong.
Lets suppose you have an imaginary plane type X with the following power settings:
1 - 1000 Hp, 100 Gals/Hour, unlimited time (military).
2 - 1400 Hp, 150 Gals/Hour, 20 mins (missing)
3 - 1600 Hp, 200 Gals/Hour, 10 mins (WEP)
For you, power setting 2 has no practical use, right?
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lol
then HTC should create a second WEP button
how's that?
again, it would be gamey to have it
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Originally posted by 1K3
then HTC should create a second WEP button
Why? The second powersetting would be full throttle. Only that for this case, full throttle will increase the temperature above normal, as it should be in most planes.
The third power setting is the current wep button.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Plain wrong.
Lets suppose you have an imaginary plane type X with the following power settings:
1 - 1000 Hp, 100 Gals/Hour, unlimited time (military).
2 - 1400 Hp, 150 Gals/Hour, 20 mins (missing)
3 - 1600 Hp, 200 Gals/Hour, 10 mins (WEP)
For you, power setting 2 has no practical use, right?
Actually in AH 1 is never used ... at all.
And it's weird.
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No there is NO reason to have an uber power switch.. It's like that Staples (TM) commercial where you have the "easy" button.
Further, no way would you have "emergency takeoff" settings that last 20 minutes.. It would PROBABLY be shorter than WEP duration, and less effective, so just use WEP. The LW planes by far have the best WEP in the game. I love 'em for it too. But asking for this is just like "ooh, I want this! I want this!!" when in fact you already have something better. No offense, just using that as an example.
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Originally posted by 1K3
lol
then HTC should create a second WEP button
how's that?
again, it would be gamey to have it
Button? What button? I have a WEP on Z-axis, right after the MIL power :D
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Krusty you don't what you're talking about.
1.42 ata @ 2700 rpm is what Mando wants.
WEP doesn't mean anything.
What the A8 has now is 1.32 ata as max continuous (mil power in AH) and C3 injection (wep button in AH).
What mando is asking is for 1.42 ata @ 2700rpm in between 1.32 ata and C-3 injection.
The problem is all the data I have seen put 1.42 at 3 min max. I have read anecdotes that say this was extended to 30 or even 40 min but I haven't seen anything on paper that documents 1.42
But how C3 injection works is by injecting fuel into the eye of the supercharger to cool the charge.
Therefore this allows higher boosts (1.58 /1.65) with out the fuel detonating.
The question is could 1.42 ata @ 2700rpm be sustained without the charge needing to be cooled. Just because you could get 1.58 / 1.65 with C3 injection doesn't mean 1.42 ata could be run (or sustained) with out it. As such the 1.42 could just be redundant.
It has nothing to do with 2 weps or an 'uber power switch'.
Unless some one documents that 1.42 ata could be run more then 3 min without needing C-3 injection then this whole thread is pointless.
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Krusty, real 190A8 had the following "general" powersettings:
1.20 ata, 1360 Hp, 310 mph at sea level (below current military)
1.32 ata, 1550 Hp, 325 mph at sea level (current military, max throttle)
1.42 ata, 1730 Hp, 345 mph at sea level, 146 GPH (MISSING, no way to reach it with throttle)
1.58 ata, 1870 Hp, 360 mph at sea level, 180 GPH (Current WEP)
What you call "uber wep button" is just what we have now.
Now, if you need speed, you jump from 1.32 ata to 1.58 at the cost of 180 GPH, surelly, if you are low on fuel, 1.42 ata at 146 GPH would be more than useful to you.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Krusty, real 190A8 had the following "general" powersettings:
1.20 ata, 1360 Hp, 310 mph at sea level (below current military)
1.32 ata, 1550 Hp, 325 mph at sea level (current military, max throttle)
1.42 ata, 1730 Hp, 345 mph at sea level, 146 GPH (MISSING, no way to reach it with throttle)
1.58 ata, 1870 Hp, 360 mph at sea level, 180 GPH (Current WEP)
What you call "uber wep button" is just what we have now.
Now, if you need speed, you jump from 1.32 ata to 1.58 at the cost of 180 GPH, surelly, if you are low on fuel, 1.42 ata at 146 GPH would be more than useful to you.
325/360 with wep is achieved with FULL fuel load right?
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Yes, but fuel load doesn't matter much at those speeds. Parasitic drag is the (by far) dominant factor at high speed.
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Mando and Grunhertz are correct in the power settings.
Krusty, what is wrong with modeling an aircraft accurately with the correct numbers?
BTW, I sent Pyro a copy of the Kommandogerat calibration chart so he can model the correct manifold pressure, prop RPM, and pitch settings. The Kommandogerat adjusted the prop pitch IAW the RPM/Manifold pressure to keep the engine at optimum performance under real time conditions. Drawback was the FW-190 was a very squirrely A/C to fly in a precise formation due to everyones engine constantly changing settings.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by MANDO
Now, if you need speed, you jump from 1.32 ata to 1.58 at the cost of 180 GPH, surelly, if you are low on fuel, 1.42 ata at 146 GPH would be more than useful to you.
But if you're TAKING OFF you have all the gas you need.
See, you would use it as a secondary WEP. It's superflouous, and NOBODY would ever use it for takeoff. They'd only use it to game the game and eek out more WEP (only at lower fuel consumption.
I say leave it off. Fix what NEEDS to be fixed! Then think about anything else.
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Crumpp, was that a calibration chart for the BMW801 only or covering the JUMO213 also?
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This all seems to be a function of lumping WEP thru "over rev" and WEP thru additive under the same button................
If WEP should only be accessed thru buttons then yes there should be two.................IMO
Ideally over rev should be set off the RPM controller and additive off a button................
The rpm can still be forced to mil or the additive switched off (or both)when temp becomes too high................(preserving the present "engine management")
Where ac have both forms of WEP and only a single button then there will be a compramise forced that will probably have to be revisited at some future date.
Also why should additive stop being added when throttling back or reducing rpm. Would it not continue to be governed into the engine untill it is switched off?
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I dont like the generic WEP system.
Planes had water injection, MW50 injection, overboost usw.
Also rich/lean mixture and cooling flaps.
All with pros and cons, also with the fluid needed to use it used up.
Can we have that in ah2? On my part, would certainly add to simulation. As long as all the planes that have emergency power just use the generic overboost, as long as all have ammo counters, this is a game.
Calling it best flight simulation, as it repeatedly is called is a bit of a exaggeration and in no way fits with that features.
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Hey Naudet,
The chart just covered the BMW 801 series. I might have a Jumo 213 chart around. I can check and email it to you if I find it.
Krusty,
Pyro will be redoing the FW-190's FM soon. I am sure this engine setting will be corrected then.
Crumpp
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Krusty, you simply dont understand that that power was normally used in combat, not only for takeoffs.
Implementing these 3 power setting ranges in AH should be fairly easy using a single button and the throttle with banding.
Most joy throttle handlers have about 90 degree movement from min to max. From the AH throttle axis calibration it would be nice to have options to set up three ranges or bands:
The first and large range or band will go smoothly from 0 to MIL. Then a second range or band only for MIL.
And finally, a range for WEP1.
For example, from 0 to 60 degrees, normal throttle from 0 to MIL.
From 61 to 80 degrees, MIL.
From 81 to 90 degrees or max throttle, WEP1.
WEP2 would remain as the current WEP button.
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Originally posted by MANDO
The first and large range or band will go smoothly from 0 to MIL. Then a second range or band only for MIL.
And finally, a range for WEP1.
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Its rpm related.
Hence at Mil rpm, full throttle will produce full mil power.
when at higher rpm full throttle will produce WEP........
It would only be linked to your throttle if you mapped both rpm and throttle on the same axis (which would be the best newbie fix any way) ie that axis usually used for throttle.
if separate
When rpm is from the key board it defaults to mil rpm at the max range of the key board adjustment (+-). But there is no reason why it should not default to this value and still be adjustable higher from the keyboard.
When rpm is mapped to another js axis then it is up to the player to set it accordingly.
In both cases the MP achieved with throttle and rpm will be totally down to the settings chosen as will the degree of engine heat.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Its rpm related.
Just for 190s, MP and rpm were both controlled by the single throttle handler. But, for this particular case, more than probably MP and rpm curves were different along the throttle range (50% MP does not correspond to 50% rpm). Mapping rpm and MP to the throttle axis in AH would not be a good idea at all.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Mapping rpm and MP to the throttle axis in AH would not be a good idea at all.
Mine are............4 x throttles and 4 x rpm all mapped to the throttle lever...........
Works very well
the only down side is that you dont enjoy as much engine braking when you throttle back..................... up side in the MA is fuel conservation.
If I really want to engine brake then I switch it off and push the throttle to full.
PS to be clear (and I am sure you know this) MP is a function of Throttle and RPM so MP cannot be mapped........... throttle can be mapped and RPM can be mapped and togethr they set (with alts etc) the MP.
The AH rpm range does not go from zero to max it goes from minimum to mil...............Hence already the rpm range is not proportional to the throttle range.
Obviously if the rpm range was expanded to go from minimum to max (including the WEP band) then a co mapped throttle and rpm would not produce full mil power at mil rpm rating (because then it would not be at full throttle) it would however produce full WEP at maximum rpm and full mil if the AH engine temp control "management" denies the ac the top rpm band due to high engine temperature.
This would also stop folk "gaming" the wep button in high engine temp conditions.
Of course folk would still have the ability to map rpm and throttle separately to achieve full fidelity.