Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Golfer on February 01, 2005, 06:04:07 PM
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I signed up for and paid my initial deposit for the 14 day CFI course at the Las Vegas ATP location.
I did some homework before getting to this point, and it'll take me another couple months work at my local part 61 school to knock out these ratings (CFII, MEI) so I'm going to the monkey factory.
Basically I just want to exchange cash for a little slip of paper that says 'Instructor'.
The main thing I've come to expect from the program:
Don't expect to learn anything, just pass the checkride.
I can live with that, I passed the writtens on my own through school, and I've got more than triple the time of most of their CFI students anyway in 20 different airplane types...should be ok there. Also have 6 months work as an A&P apprentice under my belt...good show.
I will post a followup when I'm done as well as an overall how it went ditty for anyone who might be interested in the program now or in the future.
Right now total costs are shaping up to be as follows...
$4,995 for the program
$1,000 Cash for examiner - 3 rides
$215 round trip airfare Columbus - Vegas
$400 2 weeks ATP apartment
I budgeted $7000 total for contingencies, food, and what not.
I don't think they're going to make me a good instructor in 14 days, just an instructor. I'll make myself a good one drawing on experience and learning as I go along. I've got a ground school starting up with another guy who has 5000 dual given and has allowed me to assist in the class. 1 night a week, 3 hrs a night.
If anyone here has gone through the program, one similar or is considering it. Post thoughts and questions and we'll see where it takes us.
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I'm also considering it. I'm still working on my PPL. but I'm really liking aviation so far. My hope is to someday have enough hours to get my Commercial and CFI. One thing I was pondering was maybe buying a Cherokee (the city I'm moving to only has Cessnas) and setting up as an FBO with a homeless CFI providing instruction (while I just rent out the plane) until I can get enough hours to get my own instructor ticket.
I know I wouldn't get rich doing this, but I like the idea of it.
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Golfer, Re ATP: From what I've heard, your statement of "I don't think they're going to make me a good instructor in 14 days, just an instructor." pretty much sums them up.
Their ops in SoCal have a pretty bad rep. Haven't heard anything about the one in Vegas. I'd be interested in your opinion of them once you've gone through the program. If I can be of help during your training, don't hesitate to ask.
Chairboy, a small FBO is really hard to run at anything other than a loss or tax write off. Their best revenue generators are the ground school classes. You have a noble idea, just be very careful about researching the liabilities before setting up shop. A good way to build time after your PPL is find another PPL and split costs. Just be careful about how you log the time.
Sidenote to Chairboy or Muck: I've got an extra Aviation Weather Services book now. If either of you could use it, let me know.
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Another sidenote...
ATP sent with me in my packet copies of the Instrument Flying Handbook and Airplane Flying Handbook.
I already owned these so no reason not to put them to good use.
So far Jigsaw...they sent me three Tshirts. The ATP locations I went to while flying a DE around in Florida they all had polo shirts. It's tempting to think about wearing my ATP Tshirt to the checkride :-D
At least it has a neat MD-11 picture on the back.
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Originally posted by Golfer
So far Jigsaw...they sent me three Tshirts.
They had a multi time building program a while back that was insanely cheap. Part of their SOP was that you had to wear their polo shirts while doing it.
Was looking over my bookshelf, I've got a notebook from a June Bonesteel (http://www.junebonesteel.com) seminar I took before I did my initial that I could loan you if you'd like. Also have lesson plans for all the PVT, COM, and IA pts ops in word files if you need them. Took me about a month to put them together.
There's a printed book of lesson plans here (http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=635) that's pretty popular.
Heck, if I were in Vegas I'd offer to fly with ya for your II and MEI. Can't do initial I yet.
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Can't do initial I yet.
That's the whole obstacle. Fortunately, this was the easiest way to do everything in my case.
I'm in a lousy spot, 700TT with 140multi. over 100 actual instrument. I meet all 135 and ATP minimums with the exception of Total Time and Age in the case of the ATP. Heck, I haven't taken the written test because it would only leave a 6 month window to do the practical test before it expired after I turn 23.
It boiled down to I didn't have the scratch on hand to pay out of pocket for the initial, didn't want an unsecured loan to do it and was going to get my CFI's anyway. Take two weeks, work hard for a month ahead of time and do it. So far, everyone I've delt with over the phone has been great and helpful.
I made all my lesson plans, arranged them into binders and have more IFR and Multi training materials than you can shake a stick at. I've aquired these on my own or while doing the rating. I just put them in plastic page savers, arranged them in a binder and voila...training materials. I've got a book full of Private and Initial lesson plans that was given to me by another CFI. He bought it from a company (satellite industries maybe?) and didn't use it.
Anyway, long story short there are 2 full time instructors at my flight school. Only one has been instructing for 2 years and frankly I can't even stand to talk to her. She's an airhead who I honestly believe is afraid to fly. She's busted three interviews, one with Chautauqua, one with Airnet and another at ExpressJet. Hell, I turned down Expressjet! I'm not in aviation to race for an airline job like 90% of the CFIs out there today. I have met too many instructors who don't give a hoot about instructing and in reality couldn't fly their way out of a wet paper bag. They just want airlines.
I've got 6 months A&P apprenticeship done with, I'm going to knock the rest of that out in the next couple years. I have a real solid Lear 35 and 60 job lined up thats going to allow me to also instruct, while not making garbage wages at a regional carrier. After that, the reality is I'll either stay with the company and fly for a cargo carrier (UPS) or move back to Ohio to fly CL-604's and Hawker 800XP's for my old insurance company. Minimum pay for minimum qualifications (say, 3000TT, 1000Jet) is $68,000/yr today. When I was an adjuster, I took the time to make friends with the big cheese there and he's been coaching me on my career ever since I got into aviation.
If I wanted to be flying for an airline, I could be. I turned over the traffic job driving 172 around Columbus for 4-5 hrs a day to my best friend who decided he's not going to get his ratings. I'm bored with those, tired of 'talking' about it all the time and dove in head first. In fact, I've been questioned by most at the flight school, including my best friend (who is now in my old job!) for doing this. He has explained countless times that I could fly an airline for a year and then do whatever I wanted. Yep. It would be nice if I wanted to fly for an airline, but I don't. No NetJets, either. Call me crazy, but I'm in it because I love it and want to do it forever instead of for the honor of flying 30 folks in an Embraer sardine can on 30-60 minute legs.
Is that so wrong :)
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Oh, by the way. When the ATP folks asked how much time I had he took a minute to question that I had 700 hours (a page or two ago in the book. Haven't totaled yet). Took on the attitude of 'dude, what are you doing chasing your CFI' which really told me he just wants to go -D-> Airlines
His voice squeaked when he found out I had more multi than him :D
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Golfer what exatctly do you do now and want to do in the near future wrt to flying?
Sorry if I missed it in other posts.
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It's all up there.
I manage and play in a band now. Up until last week I flew the traffic reports in Columbus and worked as a reserve First Officer on a King Air B100.
Before that I worked in the insurance business...which sucks! If you're thinking of a career, that job is one where the phone only rings if it is bad news, quite depressing.
I walked into the FBO 2 weeks ago to see if I could get my old line shift back (from before I moved to FL) on the weekends, the owner jumped out from behind his desk to hire me as a CFI...with one hitch. I negotiated a little better contract than the other CFI's there, since we have history and I gave him some money in advance when in a bind one month. This of course is all confidential and you can't tell anyone I know :)
When I come back I'll be a full time CFI until I meet a specified minimum total time (for insurance reasons) to fly the Lear's in my soon to be new home of Kentucky. Where I will also instruct at a nice little school I have visited on several flights, based at the same airport.
My schedule will look something like this...3:00am-8am 4 days a week I'll be a refueler at AirNet Systems at Port Columbus (Supplemental income...my 'better' contract still isnt squat) and from 9am-9pm I'll have open to instruction. (Following a shower to wash off that friggin jet fuel which smells much better burned)
A few months of this and I'm off to Kentucky, after all I did leave Ohio in the first place. Instruct and knock out my A&P working part time and go on about my life.
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Originally posted by Golfer
His voice squeaked when he found out I had more multi than him :D
:lol
You and I are pretty much in the same boat with hours and such. Almost identical times even.
I'd be just as happy instructing if there were enough students around here. Since there aren't, I'm going into a FO program next month.
I got a similar comment about multi time from a flight school in Phoenix recently that wanted me. I just don't have the option of relocating right now.
Keep the blue side up.
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Here's a photo of what I got for $500.
Sent them money, they sent me this.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/621_1107330147_atpstuffinbox.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/621_1107330210_atpstufflayout.jpg)
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Too bad they wouldn't send me polo shirts.
Every person I ran into at their location had the ATP shirts on, wern't bad looking golf shirts either. Eh, oh well.
"Been there, done that and got the T-shirt."
FO Program? i.e. pay them for the honor to fly their king airs on their 121 certificate?
Good luck with that...helluvalot cheaper than paying out of pocket or waiting around for students. I've got 4 multi students lined up already (who's good LOL!) to do the same thing my friends did for ours. Buy a 100hr block and I'll give the dual. Of course they will be paying my fee for I am not their friend :D Cash is king.
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Is that an explosion or a sunrise/set on the "pilots handbook of aeronautical knowledge"? lol
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Originally posted by Golfer
FO Program? i.e. pay them for the honor to fly their king airs on their 121 certificate?
Good luck with that...helluvalot cheaper than paying out of pocket or waiting around for students.
Thank you sir, and exactly. Twin turbine (B99) 135 time. Comes out to about $30/hr. including 135 checkride. Beats the heck out of drilling holes in the sky in a 172 at $120/hr, and after the ground school I'll still be able to do the photo biz for income on the weekends.
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How much time are you going to get in that? I don't know much about those programs...how long are they good for? Rehiring at the end? Or are ya booted out the door and find your merry way to an airline? Doesn't sound bad for the pilot with little people skills who doesn't want to do the airline thing. Make their way to their commercial tickets and hop in a program like that. Get spit out the other end with a pile of experience at a little more cost than training/flying/doing their CFIs
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Starting off with 100 hrs. If I decide I need or want more, there are options in the contract to upgrade.
I think I have a good chance of getting hired right seat after the program. About the time I'm due to finish is when they have an annual migration to the airlines, will have my AS by then, can double as an instructor, they have quite a few pilots there from my old school, and I'm just darn likeable. ;)
End goal after I get a lot more time is to fly for Southwest, or a corporate gig. Not really interested in going to a major.
Some people also do it just to get the hours right after commercial and bail at the end as you mentioned.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Hop in the game, dammit LOL. Tired of alt-tabbing back and forth.
:lol Heading to the gym. I'll pop in game when I get home. If we miss, I've been hopping on for a bit around 8pm (ish) pac time. Usually stay on long enough to get shot down a few times before I log.
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who goes to the gym at, lets see its 3:40EST so its 12:40 there...at 12:40?
Someone that isn't going to the gym, that's who. Get off the juice.
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Originally posted by Golfer
who goes to the gym at, lets see its 3:40EST so its 12:40 there...at 12:40?
Hey! It's not crowded in the wee hours. I can get in, and get a good workout in half the time without having to deal with the whole meatmarket aspect.
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Sorry to interrupt the conversation Jig and Golfer:p
I'm actually in the middle of doing pretty much the same thing. But naturally on this side of the Atlantic it costs more with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through. A couple of years ago I did the ground school and the flying for an Instructors rating. But with one thing or another I never finished it.
But lately I decided it's now or never. Time to put up or shut up. I may have to do the ground school again but hope to get a waiver on some of the right seat flying. But once I get it done I have a guaranteed part time slot as an Instructor and maybe full time later. That carries the chance of right seat flying in a Citation and even some floatplane time, Cessan 206. But eventually I'm moving to another city where there is no flight school except part time clubs. Maybe down the road there is a job with our one and only regional airline flying ATR 72's. The trouble is I need to repeat 14 exams for the ATPL's and do an MCC course, a multi IR course AND finally if they accept me then pay for my own type rating in France. :confused:
I just wish everyone would copy the American system. Say what you like about the FAA but the American system is easily the best from the point of view of getting licensed and rated.
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I tell ya there must be something to flying in Hong Kong too. Bumped into an Aussie in the fall while I was flying jumpers and he was one of them. This kid was 26 years old, didn't look any different from my friends. Talking about something, he's a FO for Cathay Pacific flying 747's international. For a hobby, he buys cars (porsche, ferrari) and ships them to Austraila for resale.
A big what the shreck, man :(
I just...can't...beat that. Best I could hope for is my cushy corporate CL-604/Hawker 800XP job and flight school on the side.
"Golfer's Aviatin' Service"
Oh, by the way...
ATP certificate here has a written test (I haven't taken it yet as at my age...it will only be good for 6 months from the time I'm finally old enough to take it) and a practical test with oral/flight portions. Same format as all other checkrides except with tighter tolerances and relevent questions. Why not just go to the states for a couple months and knock out the rating. I bet it might be cheaper in the long run and get some (for your case) 'international experience' flying in a different country.
Down at my school in FL, we had a kid from Poland who rode a bicycle to the airport every day. He was here with his grandfather and just finishing out his ratings, so I know it's at least done.
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Unfortunately an American Commercial or ATP is not worth the paper it's written on in Europe unless you fly N registered aircraft. But hey, what do you Yanks know about airplanes and flying. You only invented the damm things:( .
One good thing about the ATPL is that it requires no flight test. As long as you have 1,500 hours and the exams, all 14 of them, passed it's just handed to you, well after a huge fee has been paid.
I have flown in the States, did my Instrument training in TN years ago and I will be back soon to exercise the privileges of my FAA private licence. Most pilots who pay for their own flying in Europe have spent time in the States hour building or getting multi time. Best flying I ever did.
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I know if I travel to another country, say Australia. My pilot certificate is good there after I pay a fee (like most things LOL) and am issued one of their certificates.
An ATP say for Multiengine Land airplanes issued by the FAA cannot be transferred or converted somehow to JAA happy goodness?
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It all depends on the country. For example in Ireland your FAA licence will entitle you fly as a Private pilot in Irish registered aircraft within the State. No fee or anything. Others have different rules. If you fly an N reg aircraft of which there are plenty based here. Then it's like home. The Citation mentioned is American registered. The 206 is British.
If you want a fabulous JAA licence. I think you have do all the 14 exams and a flight test. The odd thing is that even though the JAA licence applies to all member countries each one has it's own rules and regs. I'm not sure how it works if you are a 747 Captain with 10,000 hours under you belt.
It's far too complicated.