Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tilt on February 03, 2005, 06:24:19 AM
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I know I really suck at gunnery....but I am becoming alarmed at how bad I really suck.......... I mean I am really really bad, awfull terrible..................
Glued to the 6 of a 190/typhoon/109 (200 to 400) I will regularly use more than half a clip........ for a few pings (and no I do not spray it about ............I set the shot and take it)
attacking fairly static buffs I am ripped to shreads whilst apparantly failing to hit something the size of a Lancaster..........
yet tracking an incoming fighter from the tail gun of a b24 i will apparantly fire at any point the fighter is no at.................
The majority of my pitifully few succesfull kills are now coming from snap shots or excessive leads and the element of luck embodied in these gives me to think that if this continues then I waste my time trying to saddle.
Looking at the HO thread reminds me that I never seem to win one.............. reviewing films of when it happens shows my sights floating around the target never on it.............. particularly in the vertical........... whether I am nose up or nose down.
Yet I bring up /.target and the holes appear exactly where I expect them.
I check my js inputs and no I am not flying side ways
It would be neat if I could fix /.target to a drone or an opponent when reviewing a film so I can see better my error.................. but then I suppose that would just depress me.............
To cap it all last night I actually flew into my opponent (from his 6) three times before actually getting a proper shot..................
I have been playing this stuff since 96 an I really really suck..........
terrible........
awful..............
cya all up there:)
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Good to hear that! :D :aok
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Use the Force.
I do.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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The dead on six shot is really really hard.
Ive basicly stopped shooting that shot.
Though I do saddle up. But I saddle up and wait for em to turn. Then I shoot the lead turn shots which are imho much easier.
Since I started doing this my nr bullets/kill has gone down drastically.
What did as well was watch Leviathnīs (sp?) films. His gunnery like the rest of his flying is amazing and from that I saw that I didnt lead enough. His films showed me very well how to lead the different shots. Very helpfull.
Aim has always been my weakness as a player in all games Ive played be it sapce sims, flight sims or fpses. Ive got really bad hand eye coordination and I know about it so Ive always worked very hard on other aspects of my gaming to become a good player. But to my amazement gunnery has lately been one of the strongest sides of my flying.
Why?
Because aim in AH isnt twitch hand to eye coordination like in other type of games. Aim is about getting in the right position for your shot, its about flying not twitch reaction.
Tex.
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Tilt, It's good to know I am not the only one in this situation :)
I often miss with the bullets at 200 yds... or less.
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Does the P51 now have a lead computing sight ?
Don't fly it but believe it does have it now, so may be worth spending some time in it.
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Wecome to the club tilt. :)
I've been in the exact same place time & time again myself. And I'm a trainer, I TEACH gunnery!
Part of what helps me is when I get to where I'm having trouble hitting I go back & practise.
Yes offline vs drones, TA vs new guys, anything and anywhere but the main where the pressure is on.
Connect and computer speed do have a large inpact. You may want to think about an upgrade esp in the CPU.
Also I'd say tex is right on the money.
Saddle up, get him to burn his E, wait for a good shot, but preferably one that has him showing more than just the knife edge.
Get close, then get closer yet.
A shot thats very difficult at 350 gets much easier at 150, but you can get too close also. If your inside the 100 yard distance any moves he makes makes it harder to stay in sync with him.
Last, concentratrating too much on saving ammo always screws me up.
I end up without both the ammo and the kill.
When it gets really bad for me I start flying the Yak9T. I have 32 rounds if I use them wisely I can get 3 kill sorties in it vs spits & nik's. (works wonders on bombers also)
But it forces me to make every single shell count. It has to be the best shot I can get or its more than likely wasted.
If there is anything I can do to help give me a yell.
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Yeah, what Tilt said. Goes double for me. And it has gotten worse, again. I think my timing is off as well. I can't get setup for shots anywhere near as well as I once did. You'd think flying the P-38 90% of the time with center mounted guns I'd get a decent hit percentage, especially since I shoot well in real life. NOT!
I think the difficulty in marksmanship and in setting up a shot is why we see people gravitating to the cannon birds. A few pings with 4-6 50 BMG's or a few .303's doesn't do enough damage, and even adding the 20MM to the four 50's on the P-38 doesn't help me much (I get LOTS of assists). But a few pings with 4 20MM's and it's all over.
I'm going to break down and buy a new video card despite my plan to replace the whole rig this fall, just so I can get better video performance with more detail so maybe I can see how to shoot better. I'm thinking about going from my current 17" monitor to at least 19", and 21" if I get a good deal on a refurb (I bought the 17" refurb when AW would no longer support 800x640, that's how long I keep my stuff).
I've reached the point where I won't engage bombers unless I get a perfect setup and I have more than enough speed. I can light them up like a pinball machine from nose totail or from wingtip to wingtip, and leave them barely smoking, while in two or three pings I'm suffering a pilot wound and multiple leaks, if I'm not killed instantly. I get one or two pings on a pass and I'm gone, if I survive I won't go back.
I don't engage fighters as much or as aggressively now unless I have enough advantage where I can be practicaly assured of getting good hits without them having a prayer of getting their guns on me. Simply because I can't hit them hard enough the first time to kill them. It's just too frustrating to light them up good two or three times (I mean seeing hit sprites that cover them up) and have them eventually kill me with a quick burst, or being slow enough that anyone who gets a quick burst gets an easy kill.
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Other than the gifted few....the other 98% of us are in the same boat....er plane. I've noticed that the more I stay with 1 ride the better my gunnery gets. Also since I tend to fly the Ki-61 alot I've developed the "tap and go" basically I just tap the trigger when it feels right and keep flying. It conserves ammo and avoids the "start shooting/stop flying" problem. I suprise my self in spurts...yesterday mixed in with all the dying I had my one good sortie for the month. Got 8 pelts in the Ki on one ammo load (all air to air)...thats 30 rds of 20mm/kill. Normally I can get 2-4 a clip (on those rare occasions I live). Going to the Levi clips what I noticed is how often he hits on the 1st burst....to a small degree I think thats learnable if you tap away vs "walking" the rounds to the target.
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@Tilt & Others.
I got to remember one thing....
In the original IL-2 during the tutorial missions the "instructor" says something very very very true.
For a noob pilot when leading shots always DOUBLE your lead.
The lead you think is adequate x2 is much closer to the true lead then what you originaly thought.
The most common "miss" in a lead turn shot is undershooting not overshooting.
This is what I learned most from watching films of AH Aces.
For example I always aimed a little infront of the enemy in a 200d lead turn shot. Almost in my sight but not quite.
Then I watched the movies and realized the Aces have the enemy "under their nose" in 200d lead shots where he is turning relativly sharply. This is about x2 the lead I had.. ;)
@Conserving Ammo
Ghosth mentioned something really important.
Conserve ammo but dont conserve it. This might sound very strange but thats exactly what you have to do.
Dont spray and pray. Dont take bad shots. But when you shoot lay into him till he dies. When you have the good shot not shooting enough is a waste of all the efforts you went through to get into that position.
The reason to not take bad shots is not only tied to conserving ammo but even more to conserving E and retaining position.
A bad shot is when you have to "force" your plane into the shot, when you have to pull nose high or low to be able to hit. By forcing your plane you bleed energy like a mad man so you are likely to stall after the shot. By forcing your plane you loose controll of your position. Loosing position will often allow the enemy to gain an advantage on you and you eventually die.
Another reason on Cannon planes is that the recoil it self can throw you out of position and bleed energy off your plane.
Tex.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Does the P51 now have a lead computing sight ?
Don't fly it but believe it does have it now, so may be worth spending some time in it.
umm... no...
and I dinnae the board servers would survive the firestorm of whines if the pony was ever given its LCS... dinnae think we'll ever see it.
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I wish a computing sight was turned on somewhere like training arena so we players could see what we are doing wrong. I know it would be a help to me.
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Originally posted by Zanth
I wish a computing sight was turned on somewhere like training arena so we players could see what we are doing wrong. I know it would be a help to me.
I thought it was, at least at one time. Guess I was misinformed.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Wecome to the club tilt. :)
I've been in the exact same place time & time again myself. And I'm a trainer, I TEACH gunnery!
Connect and computer speed do have a large inpact. You may want to think about an upgrade esp in the CPU.
So, when I was thinking that maybe my already poor gunnery got even worse with the new version (2.02) because my video performance dropped, I might have been on to something? And I was also possibly on the right track thinking that the heavier server loading and the resulting connectivity issues (not to mention the issues HTC says they have with at least part of their ISP) might be making my problems worse? I ain't lookin for excuses, I'm lookin for somethin I can fix, or at least compensate for, whether it's me, my computer, or my connection to HTC. It's something to look at, and think about, anyway.
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And yet, some guy in a spit can hit you at d800 and send you a message about how lucky you are that did not go down.
Last night I made lame attempt to vulch an A6M. He was already in the air so he broke really hard. I tried to follow but at that speed it was inpossible. Well, I pulled the trigher anyway and saw the tracers clearly miss by a lot. Not a single ping on my screen. Frindly gets him a few secs latter and I get the kill. Something is not right IMO. I can hit 90 degrees under my nose but not from 6.
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Tilt ... you have expressed perfectly my frustrations as of late. My gunnery doesn't suck (well ... at least not until recently) but then again I am nowhere near to top of the scale either, but I am finding that shots that I was landing before, with consistency, are no where near the mark anymore.
Dove on an F6-F (while in a P-47) on the water the other night. At about 600 out started to lay the "line" out in front of the F6-F ... I could see the rounds hitting the water all around and in front of him, yet nary a round hit him.
In a Spit V, came around on the rear quater of a 110 at D400 out ... let out a nice burst (I use tracers) ... not a single hit sprite ... WTF I say ... next thing I know his tail falls off ... double WTF now.
Many times while flying in the Spit V I have taken my usual run-of-the-mill D200 deflection shot ... lace the guy from stem to stern ... nothing. This is basically my bread-and-butter shot. But, I will say, at other times things happen as expected ... that is the root of my confusion and frustration.
I don't know ... but something is not right or something has changed.
I am not whining or complaining and have started to adjust, but it seems, from this thread, that I am not the only one experienceing this, which leads me to believe that something is amiss.
EDIT ...
As far as harware goes ... I have a kick-*** machine 3gig CPU ... 2 gig memory ... Raid 0 hardrive setup and a ATI Radeon 9500 soft-modded to a 9700. This is the same box that I have used in AH I and since the introduction of AH II. Wasn't having these problems before with this setup ... for me ... I do not consider my hardware the culprit here. My hardware has been the constant where the game is what has been in a constant state of change.
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My problem is that I shake like an epileptic whenever I try to take a shot. I need to compensate for a shot, so I do. But then I over compensate and I go to compensate for that.
It looks like I"m having a seizure to anyone flying by.
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I think its me............
I am not saying its the gameware or my hardware.............
Some renewed gunnery training is probably required.........
and some youth serum perhaps
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I upgraded to a killah system 64bit CPU, X800 pro Gfx card..and a 20" mnitor.
I still s*ck!
Ghost, you owe me 1.7k ;)
PS: Slapshot, the hit-sprites as we used to know are gone, maybe you didn't se the hits on the spit? Happened to me too when we switched to 2.2
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Tilt you sound JUST like me...
hit % this tour is a SHOCKING 10.487 % but that is with only 16 fighter sorties total.
last few tours:
tour 60: 5.971 %
tour 59: 4.945 %
tour 58: 7.131 %
tour 57: 3.751 %
tour 56: 4.874 %
back in AH ONE:
tour 50: 8.394 %
tour 49: 9.113 %
tour 48: 10.986 %
tour 47: 9.921 %
tour 46: 10.941 %
somethign is really different, especially of late. i have resorted to going suicide on a bomber at least 1 time per week pumping ALL rounds i can into it at ranges of less than 100 yards just to keep hit % above 4 (i know TRULY pathetic)
i did start flying with tracers again about 3 weeks ago in desperation, and i have been taking the C.202 alot just to force me to shoot better. it is helping a bit, and all i can guess is gunnery is a "you have it instinctivly or you dont" thing.
i can shoot all day at a la7 200 in my windshield and get 1-2 flashes, then run out of all 400+ cannon in my dora... never getting the kill, or even making a piece fly off the plane. these aren't long spray bursts, they are 1/4 second "line up, shoot, realign, shoot, stabilize, align, shoot" and so on.
i have chased a plane for a sector, doing the quick bursts trying to get hits, and never getting the guy.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
My problem is that I shake like an epileptic whenever I try to take a shot. I need to compensate for a shot, so I do. But then I over compensate and I go to compensate for that.
It looks like I"m having a seizure to anyone flying by.
I betcha our films would look identical. Buck fever, never have been able to cure it. Thousands of hours, still do it.
Five cheep beers takes care of it. Kinda taxes the SA tho..
Shooting is harder in AH2, but even tho I suck AH1 was way to easy.
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Tilt, way back when when I was a noOb I used the zoom function a lot when I was shooting. This wasn't really so I could see the enemy better, it was so I could see my tracers and adjust my aim at different ranges to hit what I was shooting at. It was very easy, once I opened up on a guy I could make quick fine adjustments, kinda like if you were trying to squirt someone with a waterhose but missed initially, but the correction is easy because you can tell exactly where your stream is going. Once I had a feel for how all the guns fired (except those damn German 30's :mad: ) gunnery was very easy for me.
I don't understand no tracer guys, its like most of them are so unconfident in their ability that if they let the guy they are shooting at see their tracers they don't think they have a chance to get the kill. So if your tracers are off, put em back on and just feel the shot out. I guarantee your aim will vastly improve. I have never had a problem getting a kil because someone "saw" my tracer stream.
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As for the hitsprites giving you feedback - does anyone know exactly what version 2.02 has done to the hitsprites? To me it seems that machinegunrounds dont give hitsprites if they hit planes above a certain distance.
I have shot a planes at around 400-600 yds, never seen a thing. Then later I get an assist.
I wish Pyro would be a little more specific in the changelog, as to what graphical effects where added, altered or removed. Donīt get me wrong, I love the new version and effects, it would just take a little guesswork out of tactically relevant issues like these.
Btw, my gunnery feels horrible to me (overcontroling, wrong lead, etc.), and since most of my shots are at enemies which are hidden beneath my engine (I fly LW-Cannon-birds, low muzzle velocity), I never know wether I hit em or not.
Litjan, 1.hessische Freibierstaffel
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It's been like that for quite some versions now Janov. You'll have quite a bit of difficulty identifying a hit over 500 yards, or during high deflection shots. The hit sprites are much smaller than AH1, and the resident time on the FE is also a lot shorter.
The only real gripe I have is that the cannon shots are still not much pronounced.
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of all the factors (gunnery, ACM, SA, E-management, ground straffing, bomber killing,etc,etc) i find fighter-fighter gunnery the easiest :D
sorry.
that straight 6 shot from D400 is really easy I find.
leads, snaps and deflections only slightly tougher.
from any possition under 500yrds i can shoot any fighter down using no more than 10-20 cannon rounds, maybe between 100-150 50cals. thats including the missed rounds.
saying this my accuracy is still usually only around 9%, but i think thats because flying the spit i waste many 303s that dont hit while the few cannon rounds do the damage.
funny that some of us find different actions harder/easier.
Redd told me to try turning off my tracers the other day when i was having trouble hitting with a 109F(i used no tracers in AH1 but turned them on in AH2 again for films)
he was right, the tracers just get in the way.
its not about giving the game away to the plane infront, more about obstructing your view on target, escpecially with planes using 6+ different guns.
try no tracers, see if it helps.
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Originally posted by Stang
I don't understand no tracer guys, its like most of them are so unconfident in their ability that if they let the guy they are shooting at see their tracers they don't think they have a chance to get the kill. So if your tracers are off, put em back on and just feel the shot out. I guarantee your aim will vastly improve. I have never had a problem getting a kil because someone "saw" my tracer stream.
for me it was a factor of forcing myself to learn where the guns were going...
with the tracers on when i shoot all i see is a blur of white smoke filling my recticle, and totally covering the other plane. i think HOW could i POSSIBLY miss? his plane was completely surrounded with tracers to the point i could not see him.
now, i stopped zooming in as much, just a slight zoom, and trying to "walk" the streams of guns to the plane. sadly this is working terribly, because of the nature of my fights. i fly a 190d9 most of the time, and any shots i have a quick bursts on that spit zipping back and forth. by the time i "walk" the bullets to him he is no longer in a place i can possibly shoot, so there goes 100 cannon rounds without a ping, and i have to reset for another engagement.
as tilt mentioned my plane is epeltic in it's rudder movements. yes i have played with all the scaling and axis eq to no avail. i have tried dozens of settings, none better then the other. (btw i use CH pro pedals)
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Well, I had been hitting in the 8 to 10% range, down from 12 plus in AHI...... Right now I suck (this month so far).
The dead astern shot seems to be tougher for me than ever.... I usually burp a few to get him to move and then kill with the minor deflection shot that results.....much bigger target bubble (and I know there is no such thing as a bubble). The profile is far larger than dead astern.
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I have them on again, but nothing to do with gunnery.. I flew for a very long time with them off. I liked giving no warning...
Now, I use them to turn a victim at long range by spraying some machine gun by his head..
If you see the spray, don't turn and pray. :p
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I find the dead six shot harder than deflections for sure. It's almost like your brain gets in the way because there is more time taken over the shot.
Developing a sight picture so the trigger is squeezed before you know it is something I've been working on.
This is just a repeat of what has been said before but it is so vaild: get offline and come in on the angles on those drones, it really helps.
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Agreed, six shots seem to have gotten harder and the deflection shots are easier. Some deflections where I think i missed I will bank over and see flames on the other plane. Guess that falls into the undershoot more than overshoot. but I have pumped lots of a-8 rounds from 400 off and opponent only to see them just go wizzing by seeminly missing by a hair. Not sure but I am gonna start trying to hold ammo for those deflections instead of wasting it on those six shots.
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As I mentioned before in this thread and in the past months, I have the same prob. Dead six is a waste of ammo. What I find ineresting are two things.
1) This month, I am not the only one complaining.
2) There is always that guy that shreads my plane from 800 or more out while on my six and not flying in a straight line. Now, either I seem to run into the snipers a lot, or this thing is not consistant. There are times that I cannot miss no matter what I do, but for the most part, a dead 6 shot is just a waist of ammo for me.
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Originally posted by Zanth
I wish a computing sight was turned on somewhere like training arena so we players could see what we are doing wrong. I know it would be a help to me.
The LCS (lead computng gunsite) is available in the off-line mode. I use it quite frequently for practice. (although I still need lots more practice). I don't remember the steps for enabling it - if you do a search for LCS you should be able to find it just like I did. But, It is available - I was just using it yesterday.
It puts little green +'s where the guns will hit depending on how many g's you're pulling. Usually seperate one for guns and cannon. It shows you how much lead you need from different angles, etc. A very valuable practice tool for learning to compute lead. Give it search - you'll be glad you did!
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Stang, turning the tracers off has little to do with surprising an opponent. Maybe that worked three years or so ago when I first started doing it, but enough people fly without tracers now that it's a common sight.
There are really two main reasons for turning off tracers. First, firing without tracers removes the tendency of many to "walk" the tracers to the target; they must actually compute the proper lead in their heads and fire accordingly. Second, tracers tend to clutter up the front view. Turning them off makes it easier for some to see a target and determine if they are hitting it effectively.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Swoop
Use the Force.
I do.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
he does :D or maybe .aim on storch, I'm not sure which
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I have noticed that I have not been hitting **** since 2.02. Shots that were a definite LOCK I know for a fact missed. THen shots where I was spraying like mad because my previous shots weren't hitting were met with a second delay then a tail falling off. Usually at close range when I KNOW I didn't hit anything. I think hit sprites are a bit fubar'd right now.
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Originally posted by Zanth
I wish a computing sight was turned on somewhere like training arena so we players could see what we are doing wrong. I know it would be a help to me.
There is one for the TA.
Control+tab enables friendly lock mode. Hit tab until you get your target (just as you might with an enemy you're tracking) and it will have a little green crosshair. That's where your pipper needs to be if you want to hit em.
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All you finding dead 6 shots difficult even under D400, im curious, what do you aim for??
dead6 i always aim for the center of the fusey, right under the level of the tail planes.
any other shot i almost always aim for the fuselage also, canopy, engine and fuel is all located in such a small box its hard not to do lots of damage.
only time i'll go for a wing is snapshots and high speed deflections. Or if im saddled up at D200 or less.
the only plane i'll always shoot the wing of is a spitfire, as the wing roots seem to be made of paper mache
what do you guys aim for from dead 6?
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Originally posted by mechanic
All you finding dead 6 shots difficult even under D400, im curious, what do you aim for??
dead6 i always aim for the center of the fusey, right under the level of the tail planes.
any other shot i almost always aim for the fuselage also, canopy, engine and fuel is all located in such a small box its hard not to do lots of damage.
only time i'll go for a wing is snapshots and high speed deflections. Or if im saddled up at D200 or less.
the only plane i'll always shoot the wing of is a spitfire, as the wing roots seem to be made of paper mache
what do you guys aim for from dead 6?
Always the center of the fus. I can't hit that so why even try for the wing? lol. Convergence set at 400 and I do get some hits at d400. d200 forget about it.
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Originally posted by mechanic
All you finding dead 6 shots difficult even under D400, im curious, what do you aim for??
dead6 i always aim for the center of the fusey, right under the level of the tail planes.
any other shot i almost always aim for the fuselage also, canopy, engine and fuel is all located in such a small box its hard not to do lots of damage.
only time i'll go for a wing is snapshots and high speed deflections. Or if im saddled up at D200 or less.
the only plane i'll always shoot the wing of is a spitfire, as the wing roots seem to be made of paper mache
what do you guys aim for from dead 6?
you aim below? what is your convergence set to?
i aim right into the fuselage, or at least try for that, when inside D200. at D400 or higher the plane is still to illegible undefiable to aim for anything other than the "black mass" in front of me
Ps. my conv is set to 350 all planes all guns
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Glad you posted Tilt.
Same here.
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Flying the C-Hog for awhile fixes gunnery probs.
c yas up.... Dave
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To get the LCG you not only need to engage the friendly lock, but you have to enable it first.
Got to SETUP, ARENA SETTINGS, ENVIROMENT and select 'FlightModeFlags'. If you click on 'change' it opens a new window with checkboxes.
As for canon and MG's: I never shoot them together, because of their different ballistics. Ie in SpitV, if i shoot both, i get the sprites, but its mainly the 303s that do no damage and the hispanos miss. Shooting them seperatly did the trick for me.
And i have to agree on hardware influence. Getting a new PC almost doubled my hitpercentage last tour.
Another thing that might help is fooling around with convergence.
The different guns need getting used to. I can hit fairly well with hispanos, but the Luftwaffe planes or a6m canon are horrible. Cant hit s*** with those. Its the ballistics... (i hope).
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Jumping around between planes doesn't help gunnery much either. eg - going from 50 cal to cannons , or even just from one plane to another with the same guns - the timing is different
Fly the one plane all the time and your gunnery gets an instinctive feel that you lose if moving between armament types and planes.
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Practice can improve ones gunnery to a degree but IMHO most people can either shoot or they cant.
Hit % is NOT a real indicator of how well someone shoots. Its just an indicator of how long they wait until they shoot. Take low % shots and it will drop. That doesnt mean that you have poor gunnery.
c yas up.... Dave
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Originally posted by Nomak
Practice can improve ones gunnery to a degree but IMHO most people can either shoot or they cant.
Hit % is NOT a real indicator of how well someone shoots. Its just an indicator of how long they wait until they shoot. Take low % shots and it will drop. That doesnt mean that you have poor gunnery.
c yas up.... Dave
Yup ... think it's best to ignore %'s and just worry about killing enemy planes - take those small % deflection shots - because hey - every now and then you get one .
Gunnery % really doesn't mean much at the end of the day. Vulching and killing buffs will give you a great % but does that mean you have great gunnery. ?
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Have you guys with rubber bullets checked your vid card and made sure vert sync in on by default?
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Originally posted by LYNX
Have you guys with rubber bullets checked your vid card and made sure vert sync in on by default?
vsync on... it's not rubber bullets, im not getting hit sprites, just missing entirely
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JB73 I think maybe what Mechanic is getting at is aiming inside your convergence. With the latest ballistics changes done awhile back you have to make adjustments inside of your convergence window.
As an example I fly with all guns on my Mustang at 400 typically. Anything at 400 and beyond I know I have to aim slightly high to get rounds on target. Once I come inside of 400 though I have to start aiming nose low from 400 to approximately 200 out. Once I'm inside 200 I can start bringing my sights nose high or level again once I'm practically riding up someones tail.
The rounds now will not only converge from outside to inside but also will rise and drop through the convergence range. As you come inside of your convergence the bullets arc will be higher than what your actual LOS is. You'll have to adjust a few milliradians nose low because of the bullets flight path. I've got a sample from a document someone posted in regards to the 190 A8s actual boresight settings. Problem is I have nowhere to host it at.
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Dont feel bad Tilt.
My gunnery in AH1 was something like in the High 15% range at one point, that was the highest I've gone. I do feel AH1 gunnery was more point, click, boom though. Gunnery was much more easier to master back then.
AH2 Beta came out and I was spraying like a noob. And that was before the new icons came about. Once HT changed up the icons to what we have now.... Well things really went down hill.
Shots in Ah1 with the old icon distance counter that was I was taking at say... 450-400 Could now be 400-600 and you dont really know where your at as far as distance goes like you did in AH1. I know that I would adjust my lead acordingly often by watching the dist counter in AH1 tick down/up. Now I've gotten into the habbit of taking a quick look at the distance meter and try more now to judge the size of the plane in my view. The bigger it gets the closer it is. I guess this is what HT was sort of driving towards. A more realistic feel/look/traditional shot taking... Maybe not? I dont know but now how I shoot and lead a plane is realy based on the size of the AC in my view. The bigger the plane gets the less I lead and vise versa. But even then your still guessing.
I've just learned to live with the fact that my gunnery sucks now in AH2.
Edit: As far as the PC thing goes and it having any effect on gunnery. You would had to have the biggest POS system giving you sub 20frps/screen freezes/lockups you name it for it to really affect your gunnery.
For the longest time in AH1 I played on a system givng me 30-35frps. I decided to invest in a new system. My FR jumped up into 110+ frps range. My gunnery was unaffected by the system change. So I disagree (FOR THE MOST PART) on it playing any large role in gunnery.
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my convergence is usually at 400-450 for wing mounted guns btw, with regard to my post.
i think the most important thing is how well you know your plane, as others have said.
Cobra, send me the file to djhayze21@hotmail and ill post it for you if you like.
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Thanks for hosting that picture Batfink. I just sent the file. It was scanned with Symantec with up to date virus definitions. The convergence and harmonization information is from an actual document that somene here posted awhile back for the 190 A8 R1. All I did was give each set of guns color and added some boxes for spread reference at certain ranges.
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no probs cobra, here it is.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/files/190A8R1Convergence_HarmonizationChart.jpg)
also, here is something i posted a few months back. probably a load of crap but it hope it gives a good idea on lead shots and how your planes motion affects gunnery. i posted this in reply to someone asking how a plane hit him when it wasnt pointing directly at his plane. i think its almost accurate :)
Originally posted by mechanic
following up these posts and to explain Darkish's point on lead, i have drawn up a little estimational graph to explain how this could happen, not considering net lag.
please study this rudementary diagram i drew in paint :)
this is taken with a convergence setting of 300 yrds
the weapon cones are far more spread out than it really is but take into account shakes and control twitches and i think it shows an acurate depiction of possible bullet spreads.
(http://www.flightsims.info/datas/users/5-AOA-and-weapons-cone.JPG)
essentially, the vast majority of planes have fixed guns which do NOT correspond with the planes angle of attack. the majority of cockpit views give a 10-15 degree elevation for the pilot's line of sight.
put simply, the plane fires above its ture course through the air.
if you also take into consideration the effect of a hard turn or climb/dive, the effects will include gravity, centrifugal force (sp?) and bullet drop.
So, a plane that is not pointing directly at you, can still hit you if all these factors are taken into consideration.
as the range increases above 200yrds, these weapon cones become more effected and less definite.
Now consider a pilot that is pulling back hard on the stick at the same time as opening fire
(http://www.flightsims.info/datas/users/5-AOA-and-weapons-cone2.JPG)
the weapons cone is drastically changed, meaning the bullet can hit you when the enemy plane is pointing way off.
Now also consider a plane that is pushing hard forward on the stick at the same time as shooting.
(http://www.flightsims.info/datas/users/5-AOA-and-weapons-cone3.JPG)
a lucky/skilled hit can often be put down to net lag, although it is most likely one hasnt estimated the enemy's line of sight as acurately as possible.
Note: these picture do not show weapon cone in a dive/climb, but actauly as the pilot pulls the stick and changes the a/c's center of gravity and AOA through the air.
these rough diagrams do not cover the equally improtant lateral forces that can be applied, but the rule works the same for any direction.
a skilled marksman will be able to judge these angles from 600-800 yrds, and this can cause alot of confusion to the opponent, who cannot concieve how the bullets hit him.
this aside, there is also the net lag issue, which can greatly affect things like traces, plane possition on rare occasions.
hope this helps, and i hope i havnt swung off the mark, these thoughts are only my own, not based on any documents.
S!
batfink
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have a few beveridges that usaully steadies my aim hehe
but it aint helping my typing skills!
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Originally posted by mechanic
no probs cobra, here it is.
also, here is something i posted a few months back. probably a load of crap but it hope it gives a good idea on lead shots and how your planes motion affects gunnery. i posted this in reply to someone asking how a plane hit him when it wasnt pointing directly at his plane. i think its almost accurate :)
Wow great graph!! However now I'm totally confused. You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory. Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle? If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me. I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane. Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?
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Originally posted by Golfer
There is one for the TA.
Control+tab enables friendly lock mode. Hit tab until you get your target (just as you might with an enemy you're tracking) and it will have a little green crosshair. That's where your pipper needs to be if you want to hit em.
Thanks this was what I was looking for, I am going to try this.
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Originally posted by debuman
The LCS (lead computng gunsite) is available in the off-line mode. I use it quite frequently for practice. (although I still need lots more practice). I don't remember the steps for enabling it - if you do a search for LCS you should be able to find it just like I did. But, It is available - I was just using it yesterday.
It puts little green +'s where the guns will hit depending on how many g's you're pulling. Usually seperate one for guns and cannon. It shows you how much lead you need from different angles, etc. A very valuable practice tool for learning to compute lead. Give it search - you'll be glad you did!
ah yes ty
edit.
However this isnt a lead computing sight - this shows target solution on a plane. What I was looking/wishing for is a sight that just tells you where your bullets are going to go at any given moment (we had one in Air Warrior)
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Originally posted by storch
Wow great graph!! However now I'm totally confused. You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory. Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle? If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me. I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane. Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?
look at the left hand scale, its in cm. its looks like its a large parabolla but ints exagerated on the graph.
but yes, this may be your problem :)
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Originally posted by storch
Wow great graph!! However now I'm totally confused. You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory. Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle? If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me. I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane. Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?
yes cannons "lob" the round.
there has recently been a change to the ballistics by HTC.
for our example we will use a convergence of 300 yards.
in the past the rounds would start out low, reaching the apex of their arch at 300 yards, hitting in what should be the center of your gunsight (in a perfect straight level flight)
now the rounds start low, arch above the center of the gunsight, and fall hitting the center at the mentioned 300 yards.
if you set convergence to 500 yards, they would lob and come "down" to the center at 500 yards, and so on with whatever convergence setting you had.
this new way is more realistic than in the past, but makes for some interesting changes in the game
say your convergence is set to 600 yards, and you are chasing a plane flat on the deck. he is 250 yards in front of you, and you fire with the center of the gunsight right on him. theoretically your rounds will lob right over him, and you will miss.
this did happen in real life, and is the most accurate ballistic model we have had, but like i mentioned it is a recent change.
it was implemented here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134243&highlight=convergence
about 3 months ago
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I totally agree with the idea of bursting when your shooting at the bandit, as was mentined early on in this thread. This keeps your brain from transitioning from flying to shooting so you stay tracked on the target better. To set this behavior, try flying a Yak9-T. You know you only have 32 of those giant cannon shells, also known as flaming coconuts, so conservation is front and center in your mind (I'm not even gonna consider the single MG on the -T). Now you must get close - in RL all the good pilots stress this. Set your convergence for 200yds. See the bandit, kill the bandit. and when your not close but still want to shoot, burst the guns don't hold the trigger. Yes on snapshots the bastard will fly between the shells on occasion, but the finality of one hit makes it all worth it. Your gunnery will get better flying the Yak9-T because it has to. BTW, the cannon on that Yak has decent ballistics, not what you'd expect.
Having said all that, I'm also going to try something new to see if it helps my long range gunnery. Select a jug with the 8 x 50s package and set the convergence on the 4 pairs of guns from 300 out to 600. Lets say 300 on first set, 400 on the second, so on and so forth. The cone of fire should get bigger for the duration of the travel, hopefully preventing you from looping your rounds over the bandit as is described earlier, as well as allowing for some error in general. This will obviously disperse the hitting power, but with 8 total guns the trade off might be worth it. I'm betting up close, like you should be if you really want the kill, that the convergence setting won't matter as much anyway, yet you should gain some hits on your long range shots. I'm sure someone has already tried this...anybody care to comment?
Magoo
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Storch I'm not sure if your referring to the graph I redid or Mechanics.
As far as the one I redid I forgot to label 2 things on it. The line at 0 cm extending length wise on the vertical graph is your sight line. The line just below it is your fuselage line. The MG 151s are mounted 120 cm below the sight line and approximately 90 cm give or take 5 below the fuselage line. The MG 131s are mounted directly on the fuselage line.
The MG 151s are elevated slightly to reach a harmonization point of 400m. So if you were firing at a range of 200m you would have to actually push your nose over slightly to gain rounds on target. As you come inside of 200m you would start bring the nose up again as you come closer and closer to your target until at approximately 25m and your guns would be intersecting your sight line again.
A similiar concept can be applied to the MG 131s. They are not only elevated but notched in. At 400m you would be almost 80 cm above the sight line with a total coverage area of almost 3m from outer gun to outer gun.
If you wanted to get maximum rounds on target with this convergence setting you would want to fire all guns at around 225m where your rounds would be almost 50cm above the sight line. The amount of nose down attitude it takes to achieve this setting isn't much. I could do some calculating and find out just how many milliradians it would take. I know with the Mustang D200 and the K14 sight I only have to push nose over to about the center dots outer glow, maybe a tad more to achieve hits inside my convergence of D400.
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Many times while flying in the Spit V I have taken my usual run-of-the-mill D200 deflection shot ... lace the guy from stem to stern ... nothing. This is basically my bread-and-butter shot. But, I will say, at other times things happen as expected ... that is the root of my confusion and frustration.
I don't know ... but something is not right or something has changed.
I am not whining or complaining and have started to adjust, but it seems, from this thread, that I am not the only one experienceing this, which leads me to believe that something is amiss
spitv is my ride and ive been taking the shots that i would usually take and not hitting,this is since 2.02
I have noticed that I have not been hitting **** since 2.02. Shots that were a definite LOCK I know for a fact missed. THen shots where I was spraying like mad because my previous shots weren't hitting were met with a second delay then a tail falling off. Usually at close range when I KNOW I didn't hit anything. I think hit sprites are a bit fubar'd right now.
i dunno,ive been told by ht that nothing has changed in gunnery since 2.02 so i put it down to me having a bad patch,which ive had before
but ive tried everything
ive gone from a slightly above average shooter to a complete spaz, i even took a week break to see if i could shake this "bad luck" and no difference
its at the point now where im sitting here reading the bbs rather than playing because its just so frustrating
i had learnt to fly a certain way that would most of the time get me the kill
i get 200 out or less and fire
this just aint happening no more
im there at the same point, firing in the place i know is the right spot,no hits or hits but no real damage
i wish there was some other explanation other than i've become a complete load of sh*t of a pilot in an instant
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I've noticed no change in the gunnery with the new patch. If anything, I feel that my gunnery has been more lethal and effective in the last couple of days than it has been in quite some time.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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well that only leads back to the fact its just me
and as i said i wish it wasnt.
has anyone else had all there talent go poof?
like go to sleep a pilot,wake up a tea boy
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Originally posted by paulobrien6969
well that only leads back to the fact its just me
and as i said i wish it wasnt.
Well, we all go through periods of ups and downs, be it in our timing, or choices, or our gunnery. It just seems that right now you're in a down cycle with your gunnery.
The last time I had a really nasty downturn in my gunnery was about a week after AH2 went live. To fix this, I turned on my tracers, went offline, messed with convergence, and practiced against the drones for awhile until I felt I had my shot back again. Then I turned off the tracers and headed back to the MA. It's been fine ever since.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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yep i went offline for a few hours,
practising coming in from all angles at those drones and i was getting all the shots in,went back in the MA and missed a lot.
i just feel like ive lost a leg or something...
ive had ups and downs before but this time seems to be lasting too long
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Are you missing a lot? Or are you hitting but not doing damage? The latter suggests that you're suffering from rubber bullets, and it might be related to either your VSync setting or the quality of your connection to HTC.
Also, keep in mind that hit sprites changed with 2.02, so maybe that's throwiing off your aim a bit.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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ty for the replys
yeah i think the new hit sprits do throw me of a little..
i also have a new system and the video card is not using the correct driver due to a corruption in windows not letting me load it or anyother.im using the nvidia one even though mine is the asus version
also im getting lag.. lots of it
loads of strange warping
but thats just today
i was hitting people today and getting hit sprits but still no damage ,or at least alot less than i would expect
i am in england,im not sure how much that affects connection
ive also had major ping problems before
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my ping rate has increased recently.
other day i unloaded the full 900 20mm from a niki into three lancs with no damage aside from fuel leak.
instantly i went to the DA with a squaddie and shot down his bombers in flames with little more than 60 rounds per plane.
somethings dodgy with rubber bullets and high pings for certain.
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Not that I am a good shot by any means... but what I have found that helps are three things:
1. Turn off tracers. No tracers also seems to help when attacking bombers.
2. "Fly" your bullets onto the nme plane. In other words, orient your plane so if your plane was to keep moving and would collide with an nme, then that is where the bullets will impact. G's are factored in when you approach gunnery that way.
3. Allow some slight delay for lag. Firing slightly before you 'see' the familiar sight picture can help alot.
Of course, this advice comes from someone that is not so great at gunnery. Most of the problems I have come from not being able to anticipate where the nme plane will be so I can fire rounds to meet it. I agree with firing in bursts as well. I think if I could train myself to always do #'s 2 and 3, I would be a pretty good shot.
Regards,
Malta