Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Seagoon on February 04, 2005, 11:03:02 AM
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Hi Guys,
I've been waxed by Leviathan more times than I can count, basically when I realize he's in a sector, I start avoiding Spits.
He has one move I don't understand and can't overcome, even in a Zeke.
I wish I had a film to show, but basically it goes like this, one moment he is going away from you - the next he is coming towards you. Its a reversal, but without appearing to nose up or even go into a turn, from my view it looks like he can spin the Spit 5 on its center axis.
SO AH2 Experten... Hows he doing it and how do you counter it???
I fly the Yak, so I end up bleeding E trying to get behind him till I'm so low and slow I'm chopped up by 20mm. And BNZ doesn't work so hot when hes ALWAYS coming towards you...
- SEAGOON
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tell ya what .. chop your throttle early kick rudder to help you slow down. Then vuahla counters most reversals and gives yoru a shot.
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Lev has one of the "Fastest" snap turns in the game ..
I'd say that your reaction is probely alot slower the His .
As for what he ussually does Is he avoids the ho/merge incoming players plane and shot ... and he goes for the early turn to get/beat you in the 1st turn , or the quick snap manuver.
in a plane like a yak i doubt that u'll beat him with a turn ... but an extend and or a higher manuver may give you the chance that you need .
Watch films is my suggestion ... pay attention to his "E" state and when he starts his manuver .
P.s. the film viewer is still broken in think though ..
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HO the swine and run; it's your only chance!
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Ok, so how is the Levi "Quick Snap" Done? I'm familiar with a snap roll to reverse direction but his seems far more effective and almost instantaneous, also there seems to be very little E loss.
I want this power! :D
PS: Thanks for the HO and run, I've been trying that but he won't fly straight at me its always sideways and then he's behind me the next moment. Kind of like this
1) Me ---> Him ---->
2) Me --->
<---Him
3) Him ----> Me------ X
- Seagoon
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errr
+ = confused!
:aok
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ok, if i'm not mistaken here is how it is done in theory...
as he passes you at maybe D50 he starts his reversal, by the time you have looked back and he is in view he has 75% completed the turn, and therefore in the next second or two he is right on your tail flying level.
its no speacial trick as far as i know, just perfect speed/trim/control co-ordination.
add to that the fine judgement to know exactly how much speed he needs to gain/lose, exactly which direction you will be going, exactly how much he needs to prepare for this turn even at D400 infront of you.
basically he has already turned before he passes you, he simply finishes the hard part of the turn just as you get him back in vis on your 6.
thats my take on it anyhow.
my advice, HO him and run, just like seeker said :p
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I wish I had a film to show, but basically it goes like this, one moment he is going away from you - the next he is coming towards you. Its a reversal, but without appearing to nose up or even go into a turn, from my view it looks like he can spin the Spit 5 on its center axis.
If that is how it actually looks I would like to see a film of it!
you say one moment , then say next how long is these moments? 1 sec, 2 sec, 1/2 sec? what is the distance of separation?
He prob is beating you with the lead turn and angles he gained by chomping at the bit first.........
still would like to see that reversal though, unless he is like 1.5k or more away when he is reversing, if the latter and is 1.5K or further out he is maneuvering, you just not visually able to pick up on it as easily
thats my opinion anyhow.........then he is repeating the reversal again ( same way ) on the merge
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Well the film viewer is broken but there is quite a few films at the BK site.
Morph has a film but his film site is broke :D
Hoolie showed me something once. You have to have the ability to fly your plane in a way to center the con in your side/side up or up view so it is crossing left to right/right to left or up to down in the center of your screen ( the middle ) during the reverse.
Watched him over the shoulder as he did it again and again.
In that way when you go to front view on the pass through the con flys right through your gunsite.
So once you have the ability to judge the E states so you know how much of an up angle you will need for the reverse you adjust your flight path in the reversal to center the con in your pass through views..
Then when he pops out front just pull the trigger.
Easy..
LOL
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Well if you guys pay the bribes ... I might sell ya a copy of "Spit dweebs secret manual of kill"
Any idea what i should charge Morph ?? i was thinking 2 ewe's and a weeks worth of perks..
:D
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Way back when in another lifetime I used to fly 1 on 1's with Leviathan and Jase in the TA. He has always had what he calls a "rudder slap". Normally I'd see it on the merge in some form or another. Basically what he has is an uncanny ability to optimize energy state vs positioning. When your speeding up to "catch him" he's playing angles with you....when your going angles he's hording E. Whats happening (i'm guessing a bit) is that he's off the gas nose high and when he stomps on the rudder (at proper moment) it swings the nose down and thru on the edge of the stall....the plane damm near auto rotates around itself as it falls thru the stall. In effect its a type of rope and you need to treat it as such....keep your nose down establish a bit of lateral seperation and fly up and thru the move...
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I believe Mechanic has this maneuver most correctly identified here. Basically, the move consists of a well-timed barrel roll that forces the other guy out in front as he comes in with some speed to spare. The latest film I made (Stuck in the Middle -- turned into a cinematic masterpiece by Morpheus) captures a lot of me performing this move against multiple enemies.
The reason the move looks so weird from the view of the victim is because two things happen at once. First, I am turning into the bandit. Second, the bandit maneuvers in a way that reduces his angle to me as well. So what happens is that both myself and my opponent work to reduce the angle between his six and my nose. From within the game, this looks remarkably like I'm pivoting in place when in reality it is a combination of geometric events working together.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Levi's film in WMV format should be working. I put the link for it in my movies section. Most of my other links wont be working due to a problem I had with Levis' film when i introduced it. I broke the links and moved the other films to another one of my servers but his film will work.
http://www.furballunderground.com/Leviathn.mpg
Thats the link.
Right click and save as.
Morph
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Well, here is how it works in theory.
I made a gay little paint thingie that probably won't illustrate much unless you use your imagination, but I tried.
Plane A is tooling along when plane B comes up behind him looking to shoot at him.
At around 1,000 yards or so (time 1 in GPT [gay paint thingie]), plane A begins a fairly gentle turn towards plane B. The goal is to get the top of the canopy pointed at plane B. Plane B facilitates this by flying right at Plane A, because he is trying to shoot him.
At around 500-600 yards or so, plane A rolls wings level and begins to move "out of plane", in other words, he pulls up. Plane B will take the shot, and 99% of the time miss. About .5% of the time he will land a hit on plane A. The other .5% of the time he kills plane A (usually this is in a plane with 30mm or Hizookas). The "timing" on this part (time 2 in GPT) varies depending on how fast plane B is closing. Sometimes you won't start your 'break' until he is 300 or 400 yards away, sometimes you will start it much farther away. The timing is everything.. pull up to soon and plane B easily follows, and blows you away.. pull up to late and plane B has already blown you away.
By time 3 in GPT, plane B has missed his shot and is now pulling around for another one. In other words, he is turning towards plane A, after flying behind or underneath him. This is a mistake. Most people in the MA have learned this is a mistake, so it is much harder to get someone to swallow the bait and turn back into you, normally they'll continue their "extension" to the nearest ack or friend for help. Rewind a little... in between time 2 and time 3, plane A is rolling his aircraft to keep an eye on plane B (I usually skip this step, or do it backwards.. I line up the guy with the back of my canopy so he'll fly through the gunsight as he "extends" or turns back into me). Anyway, as plane B pulls back into plane A, he squirts out in front simply because the faster a plane is going, the larger the turning circle is for that plane.
At time 4, the hapless plane B has flown right in front of plane A. If plane A's pilot has good aim, or Hizookas, or both, plane B is as dead as dog****.
That, in a nutshell, is Leviathn's "magic move".
Get him to take you to the DA and bounce him a few times with film running. Watch the film, then practice it. Note, practicing this move entails flying lower and slower than the enemy planes around you, which is probably why Leviathn is the only one left that uses this move. The rest of us have got disgusted and quit, and nobody that has been playing for less than 3 years or so actually wants to learn A2A fighting.
gay paint thingie (http://artpad.art.com/?ibh8031tyro)
You'll have to use your imagination heavily. This is from a top-down view.. so you obviously can't see the vertical part between time 2 and 3.
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LOL urchin :)
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:aok
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Originally posted by streetstang
Levi's film in WMV format should be working. I put the link for it in my movies section. Most of my other links wont be working due to a problem I had with Levis' film when i introduced it. I broke the links and moved the other films to another one of my servers but his film will work.
http://www.furballunderground.com/Leviathn.mpg
Thats the link.
Right click and save as.
Morph
235 Mega Bytes, Holy cow!
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Maybe Sir levi can post a film demonstrating this move but with no shooting so filmviewer will work? :D
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that would be good madness, although i imagine the shooting is the bit alot of us would find hardest, it really is split second timing ;)
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Its easy!
ready?!
Left.
Up
Right.
Roll roll roll roll. BOOM!
QUAH!!
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Originally posted by Seeker
HO the swine and run; it's your only chance!
Hear Hear! :)
culero
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It's a classic reversal move, done by forcing and capitalizing on an overshoot. It hinges on managing the closure rate between you and the enemy, and having excellent timing. I learned it by studying Drex's old films on BK's site.
(You really learn to appreciate it when you watch Drex use it to toast 5 guys in an A20).
It goes like Urchin said. You let your higher-E opponent approach from your six.
At about D2.0 or 2.5, you begin a gentle bank to one side, so that the enemy is flying directly at your lift vector (perpendicular to the top surface of your wings). At about 1000 yards, level out, and when the enemy gets within firing range (usually at about 600 yards), you pull up into a tight yo-yo, coming down on his six as he passes under you. You then have a limited window to take your shot. The better your timing is, the longer an opportunity you have.
A lot depends on initial closure rates. If the enemy is approaching too fast, go into a shallow dive as you bank to gain some speed. If he is approaching too slow, chop your throttle during the bank. Ideally (if you have some alt), again go into a shallow dive, but throttle down to maintain speed while your enemy accelerates by diving at you.
This move works best if the enemy pulls into a zoom climb after passing you as he'll slow down and give you a better firing opportunity.
There are two ways to counter this. If you notice too late that your enemy is reversing you, (ie, you went for the shot on the initial pass), the key is to immediately extend in a shallow dive rather than go into a gentle zoom or yo-yo. This takes advantage of your speed to put you out of easy guns range. The problem with this is that the enemy has plenty of time to set up another reversal when you come around again, and if the pilot is good, he will continue doing it pass after pass until you've bled away your energy, or until you get frustrated and make a mistake.
The second way is to predict the move when you see the gentle bank and prepare for it - be very aggressive. Instead of taking the snapshot, pull hard into a high-G yo-yo and try to saddle up rather than overshooting. Chop throttle if neccessary. Don't give your enemy time to prepare a reversal, manage your E and pull for a deflection shot, dictate control the engagement, don't give the other guy time to plan his next move. Lengthy BnZ passes will only benefit the pilot who knows how to use the reversal. The key is staying on top of him when he expects you to extend, you'll have a better chance of catching him in a low-E state where he can't maneuver very well.
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For advanced tactics:
the way to beat lead turns is not to play their game... exp:
two aircraft merge.. the Spit lead turns to its right (your aircrafts left) well your should avoid all left turns and gently extend to the right in a low g turn.. This does two things first it increases the the amout of turn degrees at which he must complete to bring his nose to bare on your aircraft and it helps gain the necessary extension/seperation so that you may have the option to reverse without having him cut corners on you and get a gun solution by cutting inside your turn radii..
Geometry is very important study it.. always choose how to make it hard for your enemy thru angles and youll be way ahead of the game.....
general rule of thumb is to match whatever turn they do at the merge with alike manuever.. he lead turns right.. you extend low g to your right.. he lead turns left you low g turn to the left.. never the opposite as it will decrease angle as he described above.. The only exception to this rule is the immelman which will put you into a joust / rolling scissors of sort.. (advanced i dont recommend it without alot of experience)
DoctorYo
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bah... just dont overshoot.. simple nuff.. 8)
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Don't let anyone fool you... Levi's move is good, but his timing is better... Probably the best in the game.
Levi anticipates the other pilot's move, then beats them to the punch...
Oh, his gunnery is pretty decent too..
RIP
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I give shane props on the reversal, he is a master at it, got films of it and still watch them over and over, just wish I could see his gauges on the film. I enjoy fightin him, he is a pain in the ***, and now I find he changing planes constantly, so I never know where he is. .................. when I get back:rolleyes:
and I'd give my other left nut to have even half of levi's gunnery and anticipation of where a plane is going to be.
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I disagree with the lead turn or barrel roll conclusions. If the plane doesn't nose up and rotates in the horizontal it's probably not an overshoot. I'm supprised yucca didn't get it right off the bat, too, as this is a common jug maneuver. Whoever he's fighting is pulling off a wingover. Basically you keep your nose up about 30 degrees until well past the stall point, then use rudder to create a quick temporary flat spin. CrazyAce has the best one I've seen lately, someone should see if he has any films.
-pellik
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here's a link to a HUGE film wetrats been working on .... a bit big, but shows some good shots of rolling sicciors in 109 scene at end
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143743
saddleing up is tricky to learn .. these films show overshoots mostly .....
what you don't want to do .....
Rolling over the top and holding for a moment maybe cutting throttle in dive and hitting rudder hard will make you saddle up .....
get your flaps out as soon as possible and keep slowing to his 6.....
two point don't miss .... and don't overshoot...... if you screw up get him going the other direction in a siccior and dive and run
remember ...... when he dives or rolls away.... slow down and be where he will when he rolls out...... if your too fast you'll be past him like he expects and he will get shot .... basicly......
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how to counter a spit 5 doing the beautiful dance...
easy...
well thats if your only interested in whacking spit5 and dance later...its called a Typhoon
1st pass make em turn, you go straight vertical, complete maneuver, and trust me, he has absolutely now were to go, your right on top of him with the high ground better speed and much much bigger guns :D
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Eh whadoyouknow SLO! :p
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SLO, when I see my enemy doing what you described I go into a steep dive to regain E while he is going vertical I get seperation to prepare for my next out of plane manouver, then its back to sqaure one and I can do it all the way to the deck. Eventually he will overshoot or you will be able to go up with him.
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I love when Typhoons try to do that to me, SLO. "Try."
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Well, in my opinion the best "counter" is to just chop throttle on your BnZ pass. You lose the option of zooming, but you'll still be going faster then the other guy is. Ideally, you get a shot at a target that has misjudged your closing speed and it is going quite slowly.. unless he presents his side to you it is usually a fairly easy shot to hit.
If you miss it, just do a quarter turn away from the target (i.e if he is headed to your right when you take the shot, make a ~45 degree heading change to your left), and "extend". Go try to kill someone else instead.
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"I wish I had a film to show, but basically it goes like this, one moment he is going away from you - the next he is coming towards you. Its a reversal, but without appearing to nose up or even go into a turn, from my view it looks like he can spin the Spit 5 on its center axis."
As i re-read the original post it appears that Seagoons question isnt actuall being adressed or answered here. Either that or his discription of what he is seeing on his FE is different from what he is actually seeing? Seagoon?
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
"I wish I had a film to show, but basically it goes like this, one moment he is going away from you - the next he is coming towards you. Its a reversal, but without appearing to nose up or even go into a turn, from my view it looks like he can spin the Spit 5 on its center axis."
As i re-read the original post it appears that Seagoons question isnt actuall being adressed or answered here. Either that or his discription of what he is seeing on his FE is different from what he is actually seeing? Seagoon?
I tried to address it a little bit. He is seeing the bastardized version of a wingover we have in AH2 as of late. Basically the plane is taken only slightly nose up until past the stall. The throttle is cut and hard rudder forces a controlled spin, which is exited when power is returned. The counter is to spot when your opponent cuts throttle in the horizontal and get above or below him.
-pellik
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Duh.....yes Pellik. I see it now. I believe you are correct.
"Basically the plane is taken only slightly nose up until past the stall."
Past stall attitude...or actually just a little above the stall speed?
Thanks.
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As urchin said, your best bet is to chop throttle and go for the shot. Mind you, you shouldn't bother in planes that don't slow down quickly or stiffen up at high speeds (KI-84.... never ever ever go for a shot on someone doing this unless you can get sub-310mph). Say the spit you're going after does this move turning left... after you go for your shot, IMMEDIATELY roll right and extend away, zoom up, rinse, and repeat. Or if you're a ninny, go hug your ack and whine about spit dweebs ;)
When you do this, most people won't take your bait and keep turning in to you after they miss their shot... the first time. Or the second, and maybe not the third, but eventually they'll either give up and run away or take the bait and die. In the not-so-uber-turning planes, it's much more difficult to get a good shot on your target, but if they take the bait you'll at least get to saddle up.
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Duh.....yes Pellik. I see it now. I believe you are correct.
"Basically the plane is taken only slightly nose up until past the stall."
Past stall attitude...or actually just a little above the stall speed?
Thanks.
This move isn't really one of the ones in my repitior, as the plane I fly works a little bit different down by the stall.
My understanding is you want to do the throttle cut at a low enough speed that you drop below your power off stall attitude, and exploit the stall for a quick spin. Restoring power should quickly end things when desired.
Origionally posted by wetrat
As urchin said, your best bet is to chop throttle and go for the shot. Mind you, you shouldn't bother in planes that don't slow down quickly or stiffen up at high speeds (KI-84.... never ever ever go for a shot on someone doing this unless you can get sub-310mph). Say the spit you're going after does this move turning left... after you go for your shot, IMMEDIATELY roll right and extend away, zoom up, rinse, and repeat. Or if you're a ninny, go hug your ack and whine about spit dweebs
When you do this, most people won't take your bait and keep turning in to you after they miss their shot... the first time. Or the second, and maybe not the third, but eventually they'll either give up and run away or take the bait and die. In the not-so-uber-turning planes, it's much more difficult to get a good shot on your target, but if they take the bait you'll at least get to saddle up.
Wetrat: The move seagoon was describing isn't a BnZ reversal. It's a stall fight reversal. Typically it will get thrown out when both planes are already down near the 130mph range, following a bit of a vert. scissors. Cutting throttle at the bottom end of a vert. scissors will usually result in death, and won't help you counter this. Your best bet if you spot this is to pull up above his 6 line and wait until after he reverses to take your shot.
-pellik
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Oh, the way I interpreted the question was exactly as a typical "BnZ reversal"... if I set my plane up properly you really don't see it move, because all of my movement is in plane with yours, so all you see is the nose coming around.
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Originally posted by pellik
Wetrat: The move seagoon was describing isn't a BnZ reversal. It's a stall fight reversal. Typically it will get thrown out when both planes are already down near the 130mph range, following a bit of a vert. scissors. Cutting throttle at the bottom end of a vert. scissors will usually result in death, and won't help you counter this. Your best bet if you spot this is to pull up above his 6 line and wait until after he reverses to take your shot.
-pellik
Oh... well then. If you get reversed on in a stall fight it's as much because of you making a mistake as it is him pulling some trick ;)
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Don't forget that full flaps on the Spit V give it more lift than full flaps on the Spit IX. Same frame but heavier engine, heavier nose. Or at least it should if modeled accurately. Spit V should also have slower stall speed.
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I tried to download and view Leviathn's film but got the following error. Anyone else have this trouble?
Windows Media Player cannot play the file. One or more codecs required to play the file could not be found.
I am having a hard time finding the right codec. Any ideas?
By the way, I am using Windows Media Player 10
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Got it to work. Had to downoad the Mpeg-2 DVD codec from Nvidia, then it worked nicely. By the way, Leviathn, you suck!
Wish I could suck as bad as you though. :D
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Guys,
I've been waxed by Leviathan more times than I can count, basically when I realize he's in a sector, I start avoiding Spits.
He has one move I don't understand and can't overcome, even in a Zeke.
I wish I had a film to show, but basically it goes like this, one moment he is going away from you - the next he is coming towards you. Its a reversal, but without appearing to nose up or even go into a turn, from my view it looks like he can spin the Spit 5 on its center axis.
- SEAGOON
This is why it's so important to not seek the HO shot. The very moment you are pulling the trigger you should be starting your initial maneuver. I think I can pretty much assure you that by the time you pass Deadman on the merge, he has nearly completed his turn.
There's another thing happening here. AH doesn't show you the exact detail of what the other plane is doing, if it did it wouldn't be accurate timewise. What to look for is when he is still over 500 yards out, you might think he's going to pass by you. Then in the last 500 yards, he seems to quickly close in on you. You are now in deep doo doo.
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Anyone ever heard of the Energy Egg?
you can out turn anyone if you use and understand it.
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Id rather call this move "The BK Special".... Redd has done this to me soooo many times... ;)
Tex
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Originally posted by Pic
Anyone ever heard of the Energy Egg?
you can out turn anyone if you use and understand it.
That's what everyone is talking about when they say 'lead turn'.