Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VoX on February 04, 2005, 11:16:58 AM
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This is a request for Pyro or Hitech not for all you who think you know what your talking about.
Can you please explain to those of us who are a little confused the damage model system at the moment and give an example. There have been quite a few comments as of late (I am one of them) that there seems to be strange things happening with the damage inflicted and sustained.
Please if you are not a member of the Hitech Creations company then please DO NOT Post a reply.
Many Thanks
9./JG54_VoX
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Need to be much more specific in your request. There are various damaged models in the system. What type of pain are you refering to.
HiTech
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Lose Elevator in a HO, Get Radiator hits on 109 from pure 6 position at d800 Rad is on left side of 109, 190D always loses Radiator when attacking Buffs, in a turning fight 109 loses oil to hit ontop of engine, Mosquito always gets pilot wound when attacking buffs, Spitfire always loses wings granted its a stressed wing but come on. B24 can take an inordinate ammount of 30mm to the fueselage (what about control wires?) but burns when hits on wing root. I shot a nikki bang from the below vertical and saw just one flash on the prop spinner, no other hit and he loses engine oil? I realise that there has to be limits to the programming for size and speed of play but it just seems odd and very basic?
The question i am asking is how is damage modeled on aircraft? does it take into account Velocity of projectile versus the material to pass through or just if its a close cannon hit then it is destroyed regardless of angle?
Thanks for the prompt reply.
VoX
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*Lose Elevator in a HO
- Quite possible, depending on the angle of fire both planes have during the HO pass. Typically the plane that approaches with higher altitude will cause elevator damage to the lower plane.
*Get Radiator hits on 109 from pure 6 position at d800 Rad is on left side of 109
- 109 radiators were at each wing root. Very common to get a puncture from 6 O'c fire.
* 190D always loses Radiator when attacking Buffs
- You're flying into a stream of AP bullets. If the bullet does not necessarily damage the engine, it will damage the weakest parts of the plane - radiator tubes, oil cans, and the pilot.
* in a turning fight 109 loses oil to hit ontop of engine
-Probably hit the oil can that was between the engine and the cockpit.
*Mosquito always gets pilot wound when attacking buffs
-Planes attacking buffs always fly into a stream of bullets.
*Spitfire always loses wings granted its a stressed wing but come on.
-You check the G meter when the Spitfire loses the wing? You'd be surprised how much G you are pulling.
*B24 can take an inordinate ammount of 30mm to the fueselage (what about control wires?) but burns when hits on wing root.
-Buffs are very toughly structured. 20mms and 30mms would blow chunks off buffs and it would still fly. However, bulk of the fuel is at the wings, which is perhaps the most vulnerable point on the B-24.
*I shot a nikki bang from the below vertical and saw just one flash on the prop spinner, no other hit and he loses engine oil?
- Lucky shot. Happens now and then.
None of what you've mentioned seems particularly odd in my opinion.
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No offense Kwe but your answer is exactly the reason why I asked for answers only from AH and not someone who thinks they know what they are talking about. The question as stated if you took the time to read is a question about damage model programming.
Please leave the answers to the Developers and not your interpretations
VoX.
P.S. The Radiator on the 109 is a Ducted Coolent radiator under each wing leading to a resevoir on the left engine casing infront of the supercharger assembly, The radiator is a Very Small intrusion into the Airflow and therefore quite difficult to hit but seems to be huge in AH.
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Heres one -
Try deacking a field with an F6F - 90% of the time the first thing to go is one gun, usually the same gun each time.
Tiffy doing the same thing is either one gun or surprise the radiator.
Talking to a countyrman other night, he suffered a pilot wound from dead six at 1000yrds out!!! So lets see - 50 cal round flys 1000 yrds, passes through fuselage, still goes through armoured seat.
Are there 'hit areas', ie a round in that area results in damage. Seems like ceratin aircraft definately get the same damage over and over again regardless of direction of attack.
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Originally posted by hitech
Need to be much more specific in your request. There are various damaged models in the system. What type of pain are you refering to.
HiTech [/B]
:rofl :D :rofl :D HT
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You know Vox, maybe if you didn't come off so arrogant and come to the realization that anyone can post on any open thread in this BBS the HTC staff would respect your questions a bit more and work with you a little to understand your problems.
Believe it or not, there are quite a few guys on here who know a lot about aviation, historic airplanes, gunnery, ammunition, as well as software development and programming. Maybe don't worry so much about who replies to your post but more about what they actually have to say.
have a good one.
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Vox: Kweassa answered your question exatly as I would have.
HiTech
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Ok let me ask this then.
When two planes Ho each other and make contact LOL crash into each other why does just one plane have damage and go down?
I would think that but should go down and NO point awarded to either pilot would be in order.
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Originally posted by wombatt
Ok let me ask this then.
When two planes Ho each other and make contact LOL crash into each other why does just one plane have damage and go down?
I would think that but should go down and NO point awarded to either pilot would be in order.
Thats the your Front End my Front End thingy.
What looked like contact on your FE, may have been a close miss on his FE. Always wondered why this doesnt seem to apply to ballistics.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Thats the your Front End my Front End thingy.
What looked like contact on your FE, may have been a close miss on his FE. Always wondered why this doesnt seem to apply to ballistics.
Yeah Kev always wonderd about that one LOL.
Hey BTW I love yer skins man keep up the good work.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Thats the your Front End my Front End thingy.
What looked like contact on your FE, may have been a close miss on his FE. Always wondered why this doesnt seem to apply to ballistics.
I am sure you have seen on ch 200 ...
That was the luckiest friggin shot I have ever seen ...
How the heck did you shoot me ... that was an impossible shot/angle
Cheater .... there is no way you could have shot me ...
Lucky punk ... lucky shot ...
All kidding aside ... there have been times where I have created an angle that I know for sure would not allow a guns solution ... yet my tail falls off. I chalk it up to this same syndrome.
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Yep, have to agree. I've taken damage several times when I absolutely know there is no way the other guy could have gotten a firing solution on me. It happens sometimes. Sometimes it doesnt. Welcome to the joys of internet gaming. :)
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Yep, have to agree. I've taken damage several times when I absolutely know there is no way the other guy could have gotten a firing solution on me. It happens sometimes. Sometimes it doesnt. Welcome to the joys of internet gaming. :)
I just call it LAG! I Get it allot. No way that con can hit me! His nose is pointing 30 degrees off, BANG I'm hit. DialUp here with terrible phone lines :(
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Collision are detection on 1 FE because it the best option availible.
It is hard to grasp but there realy is not 1 reality when playing AH, each person is seeing the same thing, but at different times.
But when you put 2 moving objects on different FE's. Realitive to each other, people are seeing different things.
So you end up with 4 choices when doing anytype of collision detection between 2 different clients. (Collision detection is also bullet collisions)
With bullets.
1. The target does the detection.
2. The shooter does the detection
3. They both do detection and if they agree a collison happens.
4. They both do detection and if either sees a collsion the hit happens.
With bullets the most importent thing is that when you see your bullets hit a plane, the bullet does damage. With any but option #1 & 4 this would not be the case.Infact. you would have to shoot where the plane isn't to score hits, and you would never know where the spot to shoot would be, and it would also change with each players connection.
With plane collsion, There primary puprose is to prevent people from holding down the triger and flying threw another plane.
Now as you see your plane collide with the player, the other player is seeing you miss him most of the time.(If both FE detect a collison both are damaged) So would you wrather be flying your plane and have an eneymy plane dive 100 yards behind you, and sundenly get destroyed by a collision, or would you wrather have it work as it does now.
When two planes Ho each other and make contact LOL crash into each other why does just one plane have damage and go down?
So your basic statement realy needs a definition of what two planes are. If you refere to two planes as the other player and you, then if they do both collide they both take damage. And if only one collides only one takes damage. The basic thing to understand is that the 2 players did not occupy the same space at the same time.
Btw conisder this only an explination, Im not into debating this topic.
HiTech
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Ok Vox mate, from one Brit to another, here's how you start a thread like this:
"Ok, what I did was test the damage model and I found something strange.
I took a mosquito up 10 times in a row and flew around until I found a buff to attack. 10 times in a row I got a pilot wound, never got any other damage. HT could you take a look at these 10 films I've hosted and see if there's some odd bug or if I was just really unlucky and it's all a coincidence even though the odds should be millions to one."
Repeat for the 190 issue. Repeat for the 109 issue. Repeat ad nausium providing solid evidence every time.
And should you find at any time that it's not actually every time x issue happens.......
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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Hitech that bring back memorys for myself in ah1, flying in a yak on an enemy runway on the deck and a b17 ups and i would suddenly pull up at the last moment, my FE would not detect a collision but because of internet latency on his FE he would see a yak fly right through his bombers and as a result the whole b17 formation would blow up and i would save all my much needed ammo.
Well its fixed now, was fun though.
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Originally posted by hitech
With bullets.
1. The target does the detection.
2. The shooter does the detection
3. They both do detection and if they agree a collison happens.
4. They both do detection and if either sees a collsion the hit happens.
With bullets the most importent thing is that when you see your bullets hit a plane, the bullet does damage.
With any but option #1 & 4 this would not be the case.Infact. you would have to shoot where the plane isn't to score hits, and you would never know where the spot to shoot would be, and it would also change with each players connection.
HiTech
Anyone ever played a game like that? I have, it is a pain in the bellybutton to land hits on someone because you have to shoot in FRONT of them on your FE so the hits land on them on their FE.
And it is different for every player.. so sometimes you've gotta lead by 2 meters, sometimes you have to lead by 20.
I didn't play that game for very long... anyone else who ever played Mechwarrior outta know what I'm talking about.
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Originally posted by hitech
Collision are detection on 1 FE because it the best option availible.
It is hard to grasp but there realy is not 1 reality when playing AH, each person is seeing the same thing, but at different times.
But when you put 2 moving objects on different FE's. Realitive to each other, people are seeing different things.
So you end up with 4 choices when doing anytype of collision detection between 2 different clients. (Collision detection is also bullet collisions)
With bullets.
1. The target does the detection.
2. The shooter does the detection
3. They both do detection and if they agree a collison happens.
4. They both do detection and if either sees a collsion the hit happens.
With bullets the most importent thing is that when you see your bullets hit a plane, the bullet does damage. With any but option #1 & 4 this would not be the case.Infact. you would have to shoot where the plane isn't to score hits, and you would never know where the spot to shoot would be, and it would also change with each players connection.
With plane collsion, There primary puprose is to prevent people from holding down the triger and flying threw another plane.
Now as you see your plane collide with the player, the other player is seeing you miss him most of the time.(If both FE detect a collison both are damaged) So would you wrather be flying your plane and have an eneymy plane dive 100 yards behind you, and sundenly get destroyed by a collision, or would you wrather have it work as it does now.
So your basic statement realy needs a definition of what two planes are. If you refere to two planes as the other player and you, then if they do both collide they both take damage. And if only one collides only one takes damage. The basic thing to understand is that the 2 players did not occupy the same space at the same time.
Btw conisder this only an explination, Im not into debating this topic.
HiTech
Thx for the explaination HT.
LOL can't say as I fully understand but hey thats my short comings:)
Although not as common as some would think some people do ram on purpose and some how get away with it and score a kill.
I was just thinking it would be more life like and fair if neither pilot got points for collisions.
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Originally posted by Urchin
anyone else who ever played Mechwarrior outta know what I'm talking about.
Exactly the game I thought of as I started to read your post.
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Thank you Hitech for the response a little laim at first but hey its your sim and you answered my real question when someone else put it more elloquently than I did.
Thank you swoop for your advice I take it and agree I may have been slightly annoyed when I started the thread and yours would have been a much better way to start the thread.
Howitzer I am trying to be as immoliant as possible but I am at a loss as to your attempt to turn the discussion into a personal attack on me?
The Real question for those few that obviously did not get it was HOW ARE THE HITS PROGRAMMED I was not questioning anyones knowledge of planes or physics, just how it was programmed in the game.
Anyhow no hard feelings sort of got there in the end.
9./JG54_VoX
'Better to be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!'
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Ok another question.
Why or how does the enigine get shot out in a front engine airplane when you have clearly been shot in da BUTT:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by VoX
Thank you Hitech for the response a little laim at first but hey its your sim and you answered my real question when someone else put it more elloquently than I did.
Thank you swoop for your advice I take it and agree I may have been slightly annoyed when I started the thread and yours would have been a much better way to start the thread.
Howitzer I am trying to be as immoliant as possible but I am at a loss as to your attempt to turn the discussion into a personal attack on me?
The Real question for those few that obviously did not get it was HOW ARE THE HITS PROGRAMMED I was not questioning anyones knowledge of planes or physics, just how it was programmed in the game.
Anyhow no hard feelings sort of got there in the end.
9./JG54_VoX
'Better to be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!'
Not a personal attack hoss, just letting you know some folks don't like being told that they don't know anything and not to post when they have every right to =)
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Deflection angle.
In A2A gunnery, pure 6O'c shots are actually very unlikely. For instance, my personal preference is to rise up from the low 6 of the enemy plane so he will not detect me approaching, not to mention a shot taken from that angle has a good chance of damaging the engine, wingroots, rear section, and etc etc.
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Urchin, yes i did play MW around one weekend. After that i was totaly pissed of because of the gunnery.
The "What you see is what you get" principle is the only usefull for most MMOGs i think, especially sims.
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Wombat,
Have you ever actually seen the fuselage of a WWII era fighter or bomber?
They are aluminun not much thicker than pop cans over aluminum ribs. They are also 95% empty space.
So, if you shoot a pop can on one end with your .22, can the bullet traverse the can & come out the other end?
Or in this case, hit the back of the engine, (explode if its a 20mm) and do damage?
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Now as you see your plane collide with the player, the other player is seeing you miss him most of the time.(If both FE detect a collison both are damaged) So would you wrather be flying your plane and have an eneymy plane dive 100 yards behind you, and sundenly get destroyed by a collision, or would you wrather have it work as it does now.
Wow....
SO both parties could recieve damage in a collision IF both frontends detect a collision. :aok
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Originally posted by humble
Now as you see your plane collide with the player, the other player is seeing you miss him most of the time.(If both FE detect a collison both are damaged) So would you wrather be flying your plane and have an eneymy plane dive 100 yards behind you, and sundenly get destroyed by a collision, or would you wrather have it work as it does now.
Wow....
SO both parties could recieve damage in a collision IF both frontends detect a collision. :aok
IIRC that was tested and was very hard to do on purpous. But I have witnessed it in game were both took a collusion, where the friendly voxed a ram complaint, and I was able to assure them that the other guy is going down too.
The worst ram is those warping bomber drones.
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I'm curious,
Given that there is always some lag present (even say 20 or 30 ms) would that mean that if both see a collision then one pilot would hit first...in terms of lag, because his FE would detect it sooner? If that's the case then does the other plane hit parts then, or is it possible to fly through the explosion without being harmed at all?
Obviously if the collision damage only results in partial damage and not total evaporation then there is the rest of the plane to hit. I'm really just curious on the total evaporation scenario.
I have seen players take collision damage from apparent collisions with my plane from 200 yards behind me (that would be on the rare occasion....they are normally near miss situations) and suffered no damage. I have also been in the position to be damaged in collision with other plane receiving none but.....I saw the collision on my end. I have also suffered damage in a collision with another plane which was also damaged in the collision.
This system makes about as much sense as can be with current technology....I'm just curious about the above. Especially the "first plane FE that see's damage hits whole plane of other, while second plane that sees on his FE only hits parts" section.
Zaphod
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there are issues from my perspective on damage modeling with both GV's and A/C.
GV's - tgr's one day get killed 1 shot from panz or 1 drop of
a bomb
- other days tgr's withstand multiple rounds from multiple
panzs or 10K bombs on it's head.
- the flak that takes 6 rounds from a tgr to kill
- the deflection shots off m3's from panzs and tgr's
- and on and on and on
A/C - my favorite here is the one in a HO situation where I start shooting @800 out get great hits and recieve no hits then get rammed and I get the "You have been killed" "someone shot you down" messages.
- my second favorite is when attacking buffs shooting at it's rear gun getting great strikes and yet it fires away and a few pings there goes the engine, pilot wound, half a wing etc...
- i'd say my third favorite is shooting an A6M for example and then watch it fly around for 5 minutes still dogfighting while it's a ball of flames
- then there is the kill shooter, I always seem to be more lethal with 1 or 2 pings on a friendly plane than if I had hit an NME in the same manner.
- the list goes on but for bordom sake I'll stop
RLTW
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The location of shots and angles in GV's is just as important as in an Aircraft.
You don't fire a single .50 randomly on an airplane and expect a kill. You put it right into the guy's forehead.
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Matrix,
if i remember correctly, killshooter doubles the amount of damage done...or was that some other game?
Litjan
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I would like to be able to damage payload or kill troops sitting in a C47 or an M3/LVT2............
I would like to be able to kill the tail or ball gunner in a buff such that even access to the position was disabled...............
I would like to be able to kill the bombadier or smash up the bomb sight..................
If bullets have entered the cockpit I would like there to be instrument damage.................
I would like to be able to kill the commander if caught in the cupola, to restrict cupola view and reduce reload time...........
In other words I would like there to be personnel/instrument and payload consequences .
But I would really like GV's with track damage not to fall thru ground terrain objects and sit there totally invulnerable to enemy munitions whilst able to fire out of the same.................
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I think the damage and collision model should be secret.
Especially as of why it is happening.
If someone is not happy with what gets hit from where or how much damage a plane gets its ok to complain.
But dont ask for or expect a damage or collision model explanation. What HiTec said is already enogh to make cheating easier. Any more explanation as of why the damage is tanken game wise or how is really more than i hope will be disclosed.
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Janov,
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
lasersailor184
As for the firing of a single .50 cal round, well I used to fire the .50cal all the time in the army as I'm sure more people that play this game have too. The destructive power of a single .50 is awesome and if you don't think so then go watch "Glacier Girl" when they took a single .50cal gun strapped it to a snowmobile and fired 1 round into a 50 gallon drum. Oh yeah armor piercing rounds did tear it up. But then cyclic rate of fire shooting at a buff certainly does not equate to a SINGLE round expecting a kill, rather multiple rounds shredding what it hits and what it hits in turn becomes more projectiles to do damage. One shot one kill??? I didn't see any sniper rifles in the hangar.
RLTW
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Originally posted by Matrix
The destructive power of a single .50 is awesome and if you don't think so then go watch "Glacier Girl" when they took a single .50cal gun strapped it to a snowmobile and fired 1 round into a 50 gallon drum. [/B]
Not trying to be an ass, but that was the 20mm they fired at the drum. How do I know? My boss was there, Pat Epps.
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dmd u are correct.
[The first items to be brought up were the four .50 cal. machine guns and the 20mm cannon. Surprisingly enough they were all in operating condition. They actually fired the cannon, blowing up a barrel. ] -taken from article
I stand corrected it was the 20mm fired. TY
If you would pass on to Pat epps He has no idea what his contributions in the whole Glacier Girl story mean to me and my son and others. An amazing story words cannot describe appropriately and a Thank You seems to small of a way to express our gratitude.
RLTW
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Originally posted by Matrix
If you would pass on to Pat epps He has no idea what his contributions in the whole Glacier Girl story mean to me and my son and others. An amazing story words cannot describe appropriately and a Thank You seems to small of a way to express our gratitude.
Consider it done.
Epps doesn't like to talk much about those days. There is bad blood between him and Shoftner Epps and Taylor spent millions finding and getting that bird out of the ice. Roy showed up towards the end of the project and invested money to help finish it. Well he didn't get a quick enough return for his money, and the law suits started. Epps and Taylor got the shaft, and Roy took all the credit. Sad how things worked out. I could write a book about those days and how much stress it caused all of us. It was cool to see the aircraft in our hanger after it was pulled from the ice, sad to watch it end up in Kentucky, and just dang glad it all came to an end.