Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on February 05, 2000, 11:10:00 PM
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Yes!
After several weeks of killing in and dying
in front of this lethal assault weapon, I have come to the conclusion that this bird should be de-feathered right back to six 50s!
Anyone else with the sensibilty to agree?
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 02-05-2000).]
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I agree, it does not belong here yet.
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Maybe a better idea would be to bring planes which could effectively counter it, snapshot for snapshot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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What? An A-10 Avenger? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Well if it was this good in real life, certainly it would have been used more widely?
Hmmm maybe guns weren't as important in real life.
Maybe it wasn't enough to get with in 800 yds and start spraying.
Maybe one actually had to *gasp* fly some ACM?
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LOL and while were at it lets get rid of all the other planes that shoot me down, like those damn uber 109's. Heheh on a serious note, if we ban this plane what is next and where does it stop, an F4U-1C in a novice hands is not tuff, but any plane in a good pilots hands is leathal, the only thing I can say in defense of this request is that the varient didn't see much historical action, but then I never heard of the C205 until I got here either and I actually remember WWII since I was born in 1943. So if we want just the planes that saw extensive action in WWII we can eliminate alot of the other varients also.
[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 02-06-2000).]
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how did somebody put it ?
CANNON Envy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hey folks i get killed by all the other planes in the sim too and the other cannon birds are just as deadly in regards of snapshots (talk about the niki)
Just stay away from the front side of the HOG and you'll be ok .. that's true for all the other A/C too!
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How about a Tempest V(4x20mm, fast), La-7(3x20mm, fast) and Fw190D-9(2x20mm, fast)? Then we'll have four fast-flying, multi-cannon planes to whine about! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by juzz:
How about a Tempest V(4x20mm, fast), La-7(3x20mm, fast) and Fw190D-9(2x20mm, fast)? Then we'll have four fast-flying, multi-cannon planes to whine about! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
D9 is slow.. has to be either d-12 or d-13 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P-51D is faster than 190D-9... so, its not fast enough, definetly not with only 2 cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (gee, even spitfries has more firepower)
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Any cannon-armed plane can kill you with a snap shot.
And BTW, Hristo why don't you just butt out of this board, since you've said you wouldn't be flying when the game went pay. And if your running mate Fishu isn't gonna pay, either, he can butt out, too.
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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I have been flying the 1C quite a bit.
It seems to me that it is pretty easy for folks to get out of my way.
Unless I find an Extremely stupid spit driver, or someone else gets them cornered on the Deck, they loop around me with Vertical moves all day.
The Niki has 4 cannon also.
I like the speed and how tough a 1C is.
I think that it won't be flown very often, and I am not six veiw whining, but you just can't see out of the back of that damn plane.
I asked who else (Rooks) was flying the 1C so we could wing up, and got no reply. I don't know if that is a rook thing, or no one else was flying the 1C.
Its new, that I think is its main reason for popularity at the moment.
Hell Yeager I got on your wing (you were in the Pony) Cause I figured that if someone got on my 6 you could get them off. Also in an attempt to keep your 6 clear.
After you Augered in, I was alone, it was scary.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
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Does anyone fly the -1D rather than the -1C though? AFAIK there is no advantage the -1D has over the -1C, so it would appear to be rendered obsolete merely by the -1C's presence...
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-06-2000).]
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Thanks for being so kind, Spinny.
Sorry if my posts seem to you as unconstructive or narrow minded. I admit, I was a bit harsh with some of my comments, some were even made under certain frustration (flying 109 in the late war arena isn't all that easy).
FYI, these are some of my last posts in this UBB, until I sign-on (hopefully).
I am still using these free days to fly (under different handle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). As for reasons I am not going pay-to-play, they don't have anything to do with AH and the current state of the game. Thanks everyone for very 'intense' flying last months.
And, Spinny, thanks for arrogance. I can just wish some more 30mm shells flying in your general direction in the future (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Real cool Spinny, real stand up guy.
Yeah let's show newbies reading the board how friendly the community is, great idea
'course some of you have this fantasy that
HTC can thrive on your meager contribution alone.
"If ya ain't got nuttin good ta say, don' say nuttin"
Simple enough for you?
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Come on, Spinny! Ease up. Don't get so harsh with Hristo. He's been a part of this beta process too. I know he gets a little caustic at times, but Hristo's not that bad a guy. If can get the $$$ he'll be here soon.
And if Hristo has been that much of a pain, would you show some slack, since it would be unfortunate if this board got as harsh and cynical as AGW. Just my concern.
Next time Hristo comes to the States, he'll owe us all a beer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 02-06-2000).]
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I fly the 1D. I get the kills on convergence with the .50s just fine. I grab a 1C to hunt buffs and vulch. The F4U is my main ride and it has been since it came out. I do jump in a dweebfire for base defense now. Damn hawg takes too long to get to speed and slow always = dead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Rocket
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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de
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I can definitely see both sides of this one.
Yesterday I was looking for buffs. I took up a 1C and was strolling around, when I encountered another Hawg, and he was a bit higher. Well, he naturally rolled over on what appeared to be an easy meal. He dove from my high six, I did the roll/split-S routine, and he overshot. He managed some damage on my vator, and I thought I was done. Luckily he tried a little too little to press his E advantage, and I was able to turn inside him and got him with a snapshot. He was dead.
Next came the 109. This guy played it better, working for my rear quarter and making passes. He would hit me, pull up, and roll over. I could roll and just about meet him on the under side of his barrel roll, but he just barely stayed out of range. Barely. He eventually took the other half of my vator and I went in. He congratulated me later on flying so well with a damaged vator- asked him how he knew it was hurt and he told me he could see it! Now that is keeping the fight close!
My point? Had I had all the vator at the beginning of the fight I would have killed him on the first barrel roll, easily. The snapshot would have made what was a very good fight impossible.
I wound up getting about 4-5 B26's, 2-3 C47's, 1-2 B17's, and various other a/c in the 1C (all in about an hour's time). I don't think I could have gotten so many buffs so easily in the 1D. I'm not sure how I feel about that. :/
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If we declaw the -1C whats next everyone will complain about a different plane. If you are getting beat by the -1c with the planes we have now its mostly your own fault. You must use the plane to its ability not fight against (using the attacking planes) the attackers ability. Most plane can out turn the -1c until they get fast then the hog both of them bythe way can out turn almost everyone of them. You want to beat it stay low and slow. it can over shoot you dont climb up to meat your death.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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"You want to beat it stay low and slow." - LOL! Trying to set up some easy kills for yourself there indian? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
F4U-1C: 9728 kills, 5420 deaths, k/d=1.79
F4U-1D: 456 kills, 1048 deaths, k/d=0.44
HMMMMM...
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-06-2000).]
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I say leave -1C. To me it's just another plane.
Don't try to HO it.
If its on your six. Give it the splits.
If your above it. Kill it.
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The -1C throws things out of whack, it's too easy to get a snapshot kill in it. Even the 190A-8 is harder because you don't have the panoramic view over the nose like you do in the hog.
I think the -1C was added as a quick way to attract new players without having to create a whole new plane. Only 200 were built, it has way more impact on the game than it ever did in the war.
When this game picks up steam and there are historical arenas and scenarios, the -1C will sit in the hangar with no purpose. It's a Main Arena ride.
--ra--
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Ya know?
I dont know what all the ruckus is in the F4U-1C. I haven't met one in my Nik while co-E I couldnt handle. As long as you deny the HO, the Nik, Spit and 109 can do the tap dance on the F4's head with impunity. Come on guys....the thing climbs poorly and is a bear to handle at low speeds. As long as you keep the fite going up, the F4 wont be able to get guns solution for a snapshot. Work for a rear quarter shot.
And like I keep trying to bang into my squaddies heads....AVOID THE HO! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
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I was very concerned that the 1C would damage the gameplay balance. Although it isn't as bad as the first few days of the Cannon Hawg, I still think it's a "bad thing". The main reason is that there were only 200 of 'em around. The last thing we need to do is start the whole "if you guys get X, we want y!" roadkill rolling, and the F4U-1C has certainly done that.
I think this variant has a place in a rolling planeset... but that's it. No, we shouldn't change the 1C, or "declaw" it as the subject says, but I don't think it should be available in the main arena.
Sigh. I never though I'd see the day that the Hawg was called a "dweeb-mobile". :/ I hope I get my P-47D soon, now that's a cool plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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> Only 200 were built, it has way more impact on the game than it ever did in the war.
Yep, increases my desire for the historical arena and events.
> ... it would be unfortunate if this board got as harsh and cynical as AGW.
Amen, brother, amen.
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Guess I was reading the thread and posting my previous post when Lephturn was, too, 'cause I didn't see his post before I posted mine. Which was too bad, he's a genius! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
> I don't think it should be available in the main arena.
Great idea! (http://route89.com/~wacko99/smile/cool.gif) Sign me up on this petition!
I'd prefer a main arena, a historical arena, historical events, a training arena and then a "fantasy arena"/"relaxed realism" (still the same flight models, just these aircraft with limited numbers and limited historical impact). These limited production variants can be in appropriate historical events in appropriate numbers and also in the "fantasy arena" where they can fly in large numbers.
What are the thoughts for minimum numbers that saw combat or production for main arena inclusion? 1,000?
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All I would add is that this particular set of quad 20s seems to have the greatest lethality. Im not just talking your run-o-the mill snapshots, Im talking about single pings ending a ridiculously high percentage of encounters. This plane would have been a genuinely wonderful addition had it been modeled with six 50s.
Still, I accept the fact, and I enjoy flying the damn thing as well. Hell, I might even make a point of flying nothing but the 1C from here on out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 02-06-2000).]
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<<This plane would have been a genuinely wonderful addition had it
been modeled with six 50s.>>
It is, it's called the F4U-1D. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ruling out the F4U-1C on the basis of its gun package would rule out the following nearly identically armed planes
Hurricane IIc
Spit Vc(4*20)
Typhoon
Tempest
Mosquito
Beaufighter
P61
P51A(with 20s)imagine that thing in this game..at low alt...
I would doubt that people will like the P47 for the same reason. It will have quite a bit more firepower then any plane here but the 1C.
Some of these planes have even more firepower.
Some pretty common planes there.....Are we sure the F4U-1C is so bad.
We could throttle back the effectivness of the M2 cannon, but I bet that Spit pilots wouldnt like that...
I look at the historical rarity of the aircraft this way. If the US had needed guns like that most of their planes would have been so armed.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I think the 1c cannons seem a tad more powerful than say the 20mm on the Nik.
I could be wrong but it seems that way.
And thats from the point of view of someone thats been flying it. Might be an illusion tho. The combined effect of higher speed with same cannons make it seem more deadly. I've had several 8 kill sorties in it and I never get that in a Nik. Are all 20mm created equal?
But they are not invincible. I've kilt plenty and been kilt plenty.
But God help you if I get a ping. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards,
Wab
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Strange, I rarely die too enemy C-Hogs. In fact I can't remember actually dying to one at all, period.
And if my stats show that I have, I would bet its because I pancaked my plane into the turf while trying to vulch a C-Hog.
Of course I don't take off from vulched fields. Hint hint hint.
And if there is one plane I have died while flying the most, its definitely the C-hog.
The C-Hog is good for only one thing, Vulching the enemy at a suppressed field. And I assume it will be a great Jabo fighter once we have a game that ground attack is useful and purposeful.
Otherwise its dead meat.
If you ban this plane from the arena, it will set a horrible precedent. And in my opinon, for all the wrong reasons. The N1K2 is a much more deadly aircraft in the majority of occaisons.
If your sick of being killed by the F4U-1C, maybe you should try taking off from a field that hasn't been de-acked, with 15 enemy planes circling over it.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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I have heard you guys say not historicaly accurate want a HA want a fantasy arena and so on. Wake up this hole game is a fantasy arena If it had props and guns put it in here Ill try anything once. I like airplanes and aircraft of all type (yes there is a difference) all years dont care if it made it to the war dont care if it never saw combat as in the F8F this is a game with no rules combat last to live wins. If you think the -1c had very little combat look again it did both air and ground missions towards the end of the war. If you want to fear an F4U you better hope they never model the F4U-4 it will own the arena.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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> Wake up this hole game is a fantasy arena
Indian, I appreciate your concern, but I think we all know that this is a "simulation", not "real". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Perhaps you missed some of our point, we would love for you to have your own arena with whatever matchups you want, but some of us prefer a more "historical" arena. Hopefully both groups can be accomodated, no reason you can't have your "all years dont care" and "game with no rules". That's the beauty of a simulation, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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canonons are to efective in -*C make them
dull like a 190 cannons and u see no more Quake bird armys :-)
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Minus they are the same cannons as the Spit IX..
Just 4 of them and more ammo..
Putting German cannons on the corsair sounds like more of a quake type thing to do to me.
These where very common guns in WW2. It is a bit strange to see a US fighter with them but not that strange.
Gator. In the arena we have, US fighters have to intercept bombers of an entirely different class then they did historicaly. If the Axis had B17s or even B26s in force. The 47, 51, F4u and F6F would have been armed with 4 X M2 cannons.. the Jug probebly would have had 6 of them...
As you have seen in my post above, ruling out this cannon load out for historical reasons is not an option. It was too common. on other aircraft. Down grading the effectiveness of the cannons would be silly.
Verm
the 1c is a great buff killer too.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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True Pongo, it does makes a good buff hunter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But you better pray there aren't any escort fighters in the area.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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With the number of buffs in the arena lately, I find myself more-and-more in the 1C. I'm able to get about any buff I chase (unless I run outta gas), and a couple fighters to boot on most missions. In fact, I often pick up a fighter or two on the deadstick glide! That doesn't speak to my "great skill", rather, you only need a quick look to kill.
About cannon vs. .50's:
The navy didn't want to worry about different types of armament on fighters, so they stuck with the .50's. Had nothing to do with the quality of the Hispano, which was outstanding.
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WHINERS I heard all this crap before in another sim... Bah ! I would rather like someone who really flew the F4u in Combat to coment on weather the guns are too leathal then a bunch of guys who (think) they know everything.
HT please continue with what your team wish's and do not be swayed by Whiners.
Guns out.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) So direct and to the point ToughGun.
-Westy
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I would rather like someone who really flew the F4u in Combat to coment on weather the guns are too leathal then a bunch of guys who (think) they know everything.
I'll take that a step further. I'd like to see someone that flew the F4u in combat in Europe, Japan andd the Russian front against German, Allied, Russian, Italian and Japanese aircraft in an environment that didn't model random enemy gunfire nor any random effect at all. Find that pilot, get his oppinion and then call everyone else a "know it all".
There is entirely to much focus on the 1C's cannons. Why?... because that is all it has. Once again, people are upset because they actually have to worry about the F4u when it enters a fight. They actually have to be aware of its exact distance and position... where normally they only had to worry if it got on their 6 at 200 yards.
F4u-1c advantages:
4 Cannons
Top Speed
Reasonable handling at alt with > 50% fuel.
F4u-1c disadvantages:
Horrible 6 view
Climbs like a pig (er.. hog)
Accelerates slower than a 63 VW Beetle.
Consumes fuel FAST
Accelerates slower than half the planes in a dive
is out-turned by over half the aircraft at low alt
Is worthless for protecting a field unless you have 5:1 numbers.
Uberplane? Hmmmm.
AKDejaVu
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The cannons on the 1C are NOT too strong IMHO. Look at the numbers for the Hispano cannons, they rule.
And no, I don't say rule the F4U-1C out on the basis of it's gun package.
There were only 200 of them! I think we should only be seeing variants that are the most representative of their respective plane types.
BTW, the F4U-1C is no uber-plane, but it is a lot of fun. It is a very good E fighter, and those who under-estimate it tend to die alot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm running about a 3.5/1 K/D in it, and maybe a dozen kills out of 67 are from vulching. Even then, only 6 or 7 kills in the 1C are from vulching a field with no ack.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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I'm not particularly worried about how many of the aircraft were manufactured. I am more concerned with how it affect things in the environment in wich they are being used right now. It doesn't un-balance the arena and it does add a particular element that was somewhat lacking... a buff hunter.
I believe the people that are saying:
In the arena we have, US fighters have to intercept bombers of an entirely different class then they did historicaly. If the Axis had B17s or even B26s in force. The 47, 51, F4u and F6F would have been armed with 4 X M2 cannons.. the Jug probebly would have had 6 of them...
Very little about the arena is historically accurate. If there are HA arenas, then I am entirely in agreement with using reality based manufacturing numbers. What flew in that arena should be used by HTC in that arena. For the main arena, however, this is not the case.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, its not really fair to pull out "historical accuracy" when it suits you. There is so little about this game that is historically accurate outside of the flight model (assumption on FM) that HA doesn't really hold any merrit.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 02-07-2000).]
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Originally posted by Downtown:
I have been flying the 1C quite a bit.
<snip>
The Niki has 4 cannon also.
I like the speed and how tough a 1C is.
I think that it won't be flown very often, and I am not six veiw whining, but you just can't see out of the back of that damn plane.
<snip>
All very valid points Downtown, IMO. My only response to you is that the N1K2 20mm does not have the trajectory that the Hispano 20mm in the F4U-1C does. Or, for that matter, the 20mm in the 190A-8.
The N1K2 20mm rounds seem to drop much faster, especially when the plane is under G load. This makes getting a guns solution somewhat more difficult. This is offset by the fact that the N1K2 is more manuverable than the F4U and the 190A-8.
The rear view does suck, requires manuvering the plane and numerous back quadrant views to clear your six.
Very good thread! I remember, kind of the same thing when the 190A-8 was introduced. At least the pressure is off the P-51. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My opinion about the F4U-1C, leave it in the game. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, is it just me, or I not see very many LA-5's up these days?
Mino
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All pro and contra's being said ill vote for: Leave it in the game as it is until we see mostly hogs in the sky (What will never be happen).
blitz
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The La5's ceiling is such now that, barring any ground attack, there is little use in flying it. 10K is about it for performance. The fights I found this weekend were all high (and that isn't a bad thing, necessarily).
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Hmmmm. I logged on last night for a few hours and the dogfights by F11 were low (below 15k). The usual arena furball stuff.
Alot of fun.
And Cleaner nailed me in an LA5 very handily too.
-Westy
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Your just not going to see many La5's anymore, in the current arena setup.
To realistically compete, the VVS type pilots need at least the La-7, and more likely the Yak-3, Yak-9U.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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The problem isn't that the hog has cannons. The problem is the cannons themselves.
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Boy, this thread is really going the rounds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I still fly the La-5FN, but it is tough. Nowadays when I fly I'll park my ride at 25k before even thinking of engaging anybody. I also try to stay closer to home - not because of range (range is fine), but because I can't outrun a 51 or G-10 or F4U.
The good news is that with flying Knights I get to stay home most of the time, anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Also, flying at 25k does seem to be doing the trick. Oh, and I still swear by those two ShVAKs. They do a lot of shredding for just a dual 20mm setup with a 96g shell. Shot down four non-vulch targets in one sortie last night, and still had 252 rounds remaining out of 400 - and two of them were F4Us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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just wondering .. what is the approximate "combat" radius with that La5 .. and what's your fuel state when you reach 25k?
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The climb to 25k is approx 1/4 of the tank for La-5FN. The radius can be extended by reducing MAP at alt, I find I can fly about 50 miles and fight and can still RTB.
Oddly enough with the knowledge that my performance envelope is lower now I fly the La-5FN very aggresivly in the mid alts now. My aim is to drag others low and work the vertically in the 5-10k range. But I am also playing with other planes more as fights get a very unamusing when B&Z '44 and '45 monsters come in to play.
BTW Verm, last night after you left ? I was allready on my way back with an La-5FN to give you and TOWD a decent fight. I had the pleasure of fighting TOWD in a G2!!!! I had massive advantage first time and took him easily. Second one was a 2 minute vertical showstopper where I worked hard to scrub his airspeed and keep him under 10k. After 3 snapshots I got him in a sustained burst under the cowling to finish it. Yelled out "Great Fight TOWD" but I think he was mad at me and logged off ):
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Sounds like Fun Sorrow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
After I finally got you with the Niki, I decided it was prudent to "run home to Mama".
I have been flying .50's planes too much, and I couldn't hit crap with the lower velocity 20mm's of the Niki. Took almost the entire ammo load to even hit you, let alone knock you down. I think I had 12 rounds left in each gun bank.
So needless to say I played it safe.
Was a fun fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"