Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: g00b on February 04, 2005, 04:10:59 PM
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Last night I put 50+ rounds of hispanos into a B-24's fuselage. I think he got a fuel leak. I have the film though I cannnot view it due to current viewer bugginess. I fired over 200 rds from my tempest in verticle passes and I'm confident I hit between 50-100 rds. Is this how it is supposed to be?
I can envision a tough buff taking 10-20 hits if it was very lucky. but 50+? It seems like this would likely kill every one on board, start fires, set off munitions, etc...
And this is not a random event, B-24's and B-26's take considerably more damage than I think realistic. Does anyone have any photos or stories of these buffs routinely taking this kind of punishment and surviving?
I will post the film if needed.
g00b
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i have to agree, bombers can be frustratingly hard to kill in AH2, especially since you can put all those rounds into them, then they 1 ping out your pilot or oil.
If i remember correctly the luftwaffe did a report where they stated it took about 20 20mm hits or 3 30mm hits to down a 4 engined bomber.
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Originally posted by Furball
i have to agree, bombers can be frustratingly hard to kill in AH2, especially since you can put all those rounds into them, then they 1 ping out your pilot or oil.
If i remember correctly the luftwaffe did a report where they stated it took about 20 20mm hits or 3 30mm hits to down a 4 engined bomber.
Not sure about that Furball. There is guncam footage out there of a 110 lighting up a B17 and it was deffenetly more than those hits. I know it's lieing around in one of these forums.
I'll see if I can dig it up. Not saying your wrong, just not sure is all.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
Not sure about that Furball. There is guncam footage out there of a 110 lighting up a B17 and it was deffenetly more than those hits. I know it's lieing around in one of these forums.
I'll see if I can dig it up. Not saying your wrong, just not sure is all.
Yeah, you cant say it will always take 20 / 3 hits, sometimes it might take 1 20mm shell to the cockpit, other times hundreds of shells to the fuselage and not hit anything critical.
I know the video clip you are talking about, i think the crew had already bailed out as you can see no movement in the a/c, return fire or anything.
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take down buffs not by shooting at the fuselage but at the wing roots or wingtips.
think about it.. you hit the fuselage...hits go in and go out the other side and you will have to drill out the fuselage to cause any critical damage (i know i know ah2 does not model bombs being hit and exploding).
hit the wing roots and you will either saw off the wing or set the fuel tank on fire..which will explode about 30 seconds later.
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I think the buff toughness is modelled correctly.
Like OIO says, don't aim for the wingtips. In real life pilots tried to shoot at the engines and cockpit.
But ofcourse, you don't really have a choise at where you hit something
g00b says that his hispano rounds didn't really bother the bomber, I think this is ok, because most bullets just went trough the aircraft! (this is what happens mostly in real live)
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Frank and IOI,
I was firing 20mm cannon rounds which do not "pass through" the fuselage. They were specifcally designed to penetrate inside the structure of an aircraft and explode. Each one is more than equal to a grenade in explosive power. Do you think you could detonate hundreds of grenades in a bomber and it would only suffer a fuel leak?
What I was hoping for was any sort of evidence that buffs regularly (50% or more) took that kind of damage and survived.
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Bomber fuselage strength is pure BS. Had a flight of B17s (3 of them) and I was in a yak9T (37mm gun)... Well it took more than 10 minutes and about 2 dozen passes to nail all 3. I was HITTING. REPEATEDLY. The 37mm hit and hit and hit and hit AND NOTHING happened. I didn't even get a fuel leak or a smoking engine UNTIL the plane totally lost a wing or blew up. I got so annoyed that on the last one I stopped making passes and just sat there pouring combined hits into the damned bomber (mg and cannon) until I flamed an engine and blew HALF a friggin' wing off.
It's BS. If they get formations they should NOT get uber toughness. Formations make up for weakness in the bombers ability to defend themselves. Thus there should be NO formation if you can't shoot them down with about 300 37mm rounds (HTH room, 10x ammo, lethality at default, because I had no problems shooting fighters down, JUST the damn bombers!)
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Originally posted by frank3
g00b says that his hispano rounds didn't really bother the bomber, I think this is ok, because most bullets just went trough the aircraft! (this is what happens mostly in real live)
The hispano was introduced from the lessons learned in the Battle of Britain, The .303's were fine fighter vs fighter combat but the weight of round was a bit small for bomber intercepts. I would doubt very much that 20mm hispano rounds would pass straight through a bomber without any effect...
Tried to find the video clip of Glacier Girl's cannon shooting a barrel after they raised it, without any luck, that might change your mind ;)
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I regularly tackle buffs with .50 calibers, flying the F6F, using a diving approach if at all possible, from at least 3k above and slightly to one side of buff's line of flight.
A couple of short bursts to correctly establish the correct amount of lead, then hold the trigger down. If I misjudge their speed, and appear to be falling into a trailing position on the 6, which is not where you want to be, I will fire a short burst and then dive through.
I will fly for 10 minutes or longer to set up such a pass, especially if I am alone. I have a fair amount of success against the heavy buffs with these tactics.
Patience, speed, and gunnery appears to be the key to success.
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seems right to me. Also seems like the buff guns have decreased in effectiveness. Whereas I used to be able to kill 3 to 5 guys (straight 6 attackers) now it seems difficult to kill 2.Seems like the guns have a lot of recoil now.
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Buffs seem too fragile to me. I usually fly them but last night over A63 there were 2-3 Bish guys who just wouldn't take a hint and kept coming back in low Lanc's, B-24s and even a formation of Ju88s. It was very costly for them but you have to admire their determination.
It's not how many hits you land, it's where and how well concentrated. I've had guys make one pass at me in a spit and kill two of my B-17s but fortunately most guys can't do that or I'd quit flying them.
When I go after buffs, I usually spray hole into them from wingtip to wingtip and I get killed for the trouble but last night it was easy to judge when those guys where busy calibrating and you could take all the time in the world. The only problem was staying out of AKAK’s line of fire, ouch.
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Originally posted by g00b
Last night I put 50+ rounds of hispanos into a B-24's fuselage. I think he got a fuel leak. I have the film though I cannnot view it due to current viewer bugginess. I fired over 200 rds from my tempest in verticle passes and I'm confident I hit between 50-100 rds. Is this how it is supposed to be?
I can envision a tough buff taking 10-20 hits if it was very lucky. but 50+? It seems like this would likely kill every one on board, start fires, set off munitions, etc...
And this is not a random event, B-24's and B-26's take considerably more damage than I think realistic. Does anyone have any photos or stories of these buffs routinely taking this kind of punishment and surviving?
I will post the film if needed.
g00b
b24s and 26s "suffer" from this... other bombers seem to be ok though.
If you have issues downing bombers though, just go for the pilot... a good plane with a dead pilot is still a kill......
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They seem a bit too fragile to me also, esp. the b24, it catches on fire real quick and eventually it explodes.
This topic comes up every other month it seems and I'm too tired to re-write my thoughts over and over, bottom line is ppl who complain about buff strenth aren't shooting at them in proper places with the right angles.
Originally posted by Easyscor
Buffs seem too fragile to me. I usually fly them but last night over A63 there were 2-3 Bish guys who just wouldn't take a hint and kept coming back in low Lanc's, B-24s and even a formation of Ju88s. It was very costly for them but you have to admire their determination.
It's not how many hits you land, it's where and how well concentrated. I've had guys make one pass at me in a spit and kill two of my B-17s but fortunately most guys can't do that or I'd quit flying them.
When I go after buffs, I usually spray hole into them from wingtip to wingtip and I get killed for the trouble but last night it was easy to judge when those guys where busy calibrating and you could take all the time in the world. The only problem was staying out of AKAK’s line of fire, ouch.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
Not sure about that Furball. There is guncam footage out there of a 110 lighting up a B17 and it was deffenetly more than those hits. I know it's lieing around in one of these forums.
I'll see if I can dig it up. Not saying your wrong, just not sure is all.
Have you ever noticed that in those films, the attacker seems to completly ignore the fact that the bufs have phasers and photon torpidos in the tail gunner position?
I was in a dog fight with a 51 last night and I had already put a ton of rounds in it. It kept going without any maijor damage. During the fight however, a set of B17s flew by at 1K. Thre pings and I lost my wing. I dont mind them being tough to kill as long as we get a chance to take a shot at them too.
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From what I've seen they seem pretty tough in AH2. In AH1 I would never target just one bomber, I would always take at least 2 out of the formation with one pass. Now in AH2, I have found a high speed pass from a high 6 with a steep angle works the best. I normally fly fighters with 50cals, so concentration of fire is what does the damage. If you spread those shots all over the wings, you may get one engine out, however if you look at the plane like a giant cross, aim for the middle and let er' rip! Most of the time I will rip the poor thing right in half, then have enough speed to loop around for another pass.
But I tell ya, I attacked a lancaster with a p47 with 8 50's last night from a straight 6, about d400.. I could not believe the number of sprites I saw, only to knock an aileron off. Its all angle and concentration. If you are looking to preserve ammo, just let um fly by :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
Bomber fuselage strength is pure BS. Had a flight of B17s (3 of them) and I was in a yak9T (37mm gun)... Well it took more than 10 minutes and about 2 dozen passes to nail all 3.
Did you have to land, reload, and try again? :lol
I'm not sure where you are exaggerating. Did it really take you 20ish passess? Or do you really fire less than 2 shots in a burst?
Personally, I've only ever had to use 3 37mm rounds to get a buff down, however in an event one night my wingman claims to have put in around 7 on a Ju-88. Now, normally when someone reports something like that I would assume that they were firing both guns and hitting with the UBS, but Deke was an experienced "T" flyer, and was part of my Yak squad. So it was certainly curious.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
one night my wingman claims to have put in around 7 on a Ju-88. Now, normally when someone reports something like that I would assume that they were firing both guns and hitting with the UBS, but Deke was an experienced "T" flyer, and was part of my Yak squad. So it was certainly curious.
-Sik
I have experienced same, Ju88 vs Yak9T.
I saw a NOE ju88 formation fly over base i was at, so thought i would up a 9T for a laugh, i just went in dead behind him firing the spud gun only, put ALL my ammo into the formation, lots of hit sprites, doing gentle weaving behind the bombers to hit all 3 of them - expecting them to go down easily.
One died, other 2 flew off with no visible damage when i ran outta spud gun and he smoked my oil. I am not a bad aim, and i was point blank range. I would have said i hit with at least 2/3 of my cannon rounds
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I do know for a fact that sometimes net lag will loose hits.
If you experience this (as I do), break up your shots (small squeezes instead of long steady bursts).
Net lag sucks, and sometimes it does impact gameplay - we just gotta work around it until HTC figures it out. :aok
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What krusty said,the buff model in the game is BS!
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I do know for a fact that sometimes net lag will loose hits.
You do not know this for a fact, and it is impossible for lag to loose hits. For a hit to be lossed you would have to be discoed.
HiTech
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On average... How many 20 mm's to a b-26, b-17, b-24 or lancasters fuselage should be necassary to destroy it? Once the film viewer is working again I will post the relevant films.
g00b
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g00b,
You'd have to do some testing.
I recall J_A_B and I were testing some tail destruction with the Hispano, using the P-38 for controlability purposes.
From 50 yards a Lancaster's tail took 17 hits to remove and a B-17G's took, IIRC, 24 hits.
As a comparison, a Mosquito's took 3, a Bf110G-2 or P-51D took 2.
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I found a nice soft spot on the B24s. Come in above about a 45 degree angle and aim for just behind the cockpit windows and they pop like a balloon.
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Originally posted by hitech
You do not know this for a fact, and it is impossible for lag to loose hits. For a hit to be lossed you would have to be discoed.
HiTech
Isn't it possible to lose packets when using UDP or is UDP used only for receiving on the client end?
Thank you
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We do not transmit hit packets by udp.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
You do not know this for a fact, and it is impossible for lag to loose hits. For a hit to be lossed you would have to be discoed.
HiTech
That is interesting, I was not aware of that. I was under the impression (probably from a trainer) that lost packets were lost packets, and if a lost packet had the data where you scored your hits, you were just out of luck. However you want to say it, I understood the trainer (don't remember who) to say that lag could cost you hits. Thank you for the clarification.
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Originally posted by hitech
We do not transmit hit packets by udp.
HiTech
Just out of curiosity and I anderstand you may not want to answer that, is it then two connections? A UDP broadcast/multicast for stuff that reliability is not important but speed is, like position updates for example and a second TCP connection for the important things like bulet hits etc.
Thank you
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correct dedalos,and a 3rd udp for voice
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Originally posted by mars01
I found a nice soft spot on the B24s. Come in above about a 45 degree angle and aim for just behind the cockpit windows and they pop like a balloon.
thats cos the cannon round blows up behind the pilot....making a red mess in the cockpit ;)
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lol yes, yes it is.
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Originally posted by hitech
correct dedalos,and a 3rd udp for voice
Thank you. Its funny how things are pretty mach the same everywhere. I know of three exchanges that use the same model. It seems that no matter how mach hardware, programing lunguages, methodologies, etc change and advance, the basics in system designs atlist, have not changed in probably decades.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Just out of curiosity and I anderstand you may not want to answer that, is it then two connections? A UDP broadcast/multicast for stuff that reliability is not important but speed is, like position updates for example and a second TCP connection for the important things like bulet hits etc.
Thank you
How much of a performance increase does UDP provide us? I can't help but imagine that if packets were coming to us in order the UFO warp lag and cable pullers wouldn't be so frustrating. I wonder if now that DSL and Cable are so common the performance gain of UDP still outweighs these problems.
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Originally posted by pellik
How much of a performance increase does UDP provide us? I can't help but imagine that if packets were coming to us in order the UFO warp lag and cable pullers wouldn't be so frustrating. I wonder if now that DSL and Cable are so common the performance gain of UDP still outweighs these problems.
It does help network performance in a sence that it is a multicast/broadcast. One message sent and who ever is listening gets it. In a TCP environment, a message would have to be sent to every single connection and the TCP would have to ack the message causing not only network trafic but retransmits in case of failuer. In addition, the HT server would have to perform the send operation as many times as people connected (500 US prome) potentially causing performance issues on the server site also. UDP helps also in other ways such as when you see a warp (and it could be you that has the problem not the other guy) TCP would most likely result in a disconnect from the host. With UDP all you see is some warping if even. Now, there is such thing as reliable multicast but I don;t think it is worth the effort of changing things (if this is not how things are now)
More reasons/details available if you really care that mach
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Biggest different in UDP vs TCP is less warping. When a packet is droped in TCP the next packet has to wait until the droped is retransmited. With positional up dates you realy don't care about the previous postion when you already have a new one.
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I fly lotsa buffs, (die about 50%) B17's---wingroots take em right off--B24...wings are ammo sponge---good cannon hits to fuselage start the fire...30 seconds later it pops---USgolfer beat me up like a red-headed stepchild one night, did 3 passes, came straight down from above each time...just a small burst..each time, either exploded the plane or started fire, which is same thing (109 he was in, mebbe used 30's) never came close to getting a ping on him