Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on February 05, 2005, 05:15:26 AM
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Do you have any stats about levels of British gun ownership? I have just read some material which suggests that before 1997 it was 4.7% of all households. That seems way higher than I would have expected, but then again the volume of arms collected by the last amnesty (17,000 guns/403,000 rounds of ammo, IIRC) was way higher than I would have expected.
Hehe, let's see if this thread turns into the usual 4-5 page job. :lol
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In 1996 there were 141,900 firearms certificates on issue in England and Wales, covering 418,300 firearms, and 638,000 shotgun certificates covering 1,335,000 shotguns.
There were approx 20 - 21 million households.
That seems way higher than I would have expected, but then again the volume of arms collected by the last amnesty (17,000 guns/403,000 rounds of ammo, IIRC) was way higher than I would have expected.
Watch out for the rather flexible definition of "firearms". West Midlands police said 55% of all "firearms" handed in to them during the amnesty were blank firers, and I'd expect a lot more to be bb guns, antiques, airguns etc.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Watch out for the rather flexible definition of "firearms". West Midlands police said 55% of all "firearms" handed in to them during the amnesty were blank firers, and I'd expect a lot more to be bb guns, antiques, airguns etc.
When I was a kid, I had a Daisy Red Ryder Range Model BB Gun with a compass in the stock and a thing that tells time.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
When I was a kid, I had a Daisy Red Ryder Range Model BB Gun with a compass in the stock and a thing that tells time.
you'll shoot your eye out.
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the one thing I notice about "statistics" in england is that they never have anything to do with reality... seems you guys make em suit whatever conclussion you want.. If we say you have had your guns confiscated by your nannies and that there were a lot of people who lost their rights you say that "guns" mean toys.. Lots of toys were turned in.
If we say you have a lot of gun crime now you say that they aren't guns but toys... do you guys over there even know what a real gun is?
lazs
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i saw a real gun once, it made loud noises an scared me...er ...maybe that was a dog.......
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There are perfectly clear definitions of what a firearm is.
However, when politicians, keen to be seen to be doing something, give the results of a "firearms" amnesty, they are keen to include anything handed in under the definition of "firearm". The press are also keen to portray anything remotely resembling a gun as a "firearm".
Strangely enough, so are gun lobby groups in America, when it comes to the British statistics.
As to crime with firearms, a firearm used in a crime is anything the criminal presents as a firearm. So if you walk in to a shop with two pieces of pipe sticking out of a bag, (which would look like a sawn off shotgun) and claim it is a shotgun, that's an "armed robbery".
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Lazs...
i have trained on the SA80 (cadet model-only single cocking action not auto) and the LSW (light support weapon). I did many hours of range shooting on both and had a quick gander at a few handguns (i forget what models).
i have been on pheasant shoots and clay shoots with the old 12 gauge in both england and scotalnd
I can shoot very well despite never owning a gun more powerfull than a 'toy' air rifle.
the simple fact remains that, seeing as we dont carry guns for protection, we also dont need guns for protection.
In general, if a criminal uses a gun in the UK, i'd say its more for use as a threat than to kill or maim.
Because the general public dont carry guns, if we fight we do it the old fashioned way. people still get hurt and people still die. Its just we have the advantage of looking in the chaps's eyes rather than being sniped from 50yrds in the back.
you and beetle need to stop this gun crap, its getting kinda tedious.
Americans have guns, European (in general) dont.
lets leave it at that.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
As to crime with firearms, a firearm used in a crime is anything the criminal presents as a firearm. So if you walk in to a shop with two pieces of pipe sticking out of a bag, (which would look like a sawn off shotgun) and claim it is a shotgun, that's an "armed robbery".
in USA you don't have to "show" anything, if the criminal says they have a gun it is armed robbery. intimidation factor.
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A hand in the pocket (if done in a meaningful manner) can make it an armed robbery in the USA.
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Society in England has become so messed up as it has evolved over the ages that burglars are today considered members of the public at large who must be protected from violent householders defending their possesions against theft. That is messed up.
Just study the case of Tony Martin and you will see what Im talking about. The guy found three strangers in his home ransacking his possesions! Using a UNREGISTERED shotgun Tony defended his home shooting two of the criminals, killing one. Tony Martin was convicted of murder and sentanced to life in prison for protecting his home, his castle.
England is a pathetic place to be born. My condolances to you blokes. :aok
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Oh no, the monthly gun thread has coincided with Yeagers period.
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my god the boards have been amusing overall tonight.
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fair enough mechanic.. if you feel that having your firearms rights taken away has given you so much better life and less fear of bgeing killed in england that is up to you. Not sure exacly what gun laws you guys passed tho that dropped your homicide rate so dramaticaly.... My guess is that you just aren't the types of people that murder each other.
I got no problem with you guys limiting yourselves and if you believe that looking at a few handguns makes you proficient with em.... who am I to say? Doesn't seem to work that way here but... maybe people are different there.
But... When we are looking at englands gun control it is not because we want you to have your rights back (we would be happy to help if we could tho).... no... it is because the methods used by your government to disarm you are the same lieing incramentalism that they are trying to jam down our throats...
"What would be wrong with a national gun regestration, we will never use it to confiscate law abiding gun opwners firearms" they say... yet we look at you and see that they are indeed never happy until they have confiscated every gun in the country.
That is the reason we use your country as an example. You may be happy with it but we have a lot more gun owners than you ever had,,, 70-80 million of em. they are nervous and don't want to have their rights removed.... many who don't own guns now would rush out to buy em any way they could if they thought a ban was imminent.
We are just completely different people than you are. We don't have much in common at all except that you speak a very accented version of Californian (except when you sing) Even our countries are very different... we have wide open spaces and differnt state... even wyoming is allmost twice as big as your whole country.
We are simply fighting to preserve our rights as long as we can.... the example of your country and worse... Australlia (which I allways looked at as rugged individuals) your examples show us what will happen to us if we don't fight.
lazs
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You need that Lott guy to give you all the stats Beet. You know...the guy who writes all of his own reviews.
lol.
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Originally posted by Rasker
A hand in the pocket (if done in a meaningful manner) can make it an armed robbery in the USA.
After I shot off Lazs's .44 magnum, I kept getting arrested for armed robbery - and I didn't even have a gun - or even a hand in my pocket. ;)
Lazs - your examples show us what will happen to us if we don't fight.
That's what they want you to think. Your indoctrination is complete! :aok
Curval - LOL!
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what who want's me to think and.... why would anyone want to "indocrinate" me to do something that I allready naturally do? Why would anyone want to "indocrtinate" me into keeping my rights?
And curval... wasn't it Lotts son who was pretending to be someone else and giving his dad good reviews? You made it sound like it was him who did it... not quite the same is it?
lazs
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and... I have allways liked your sig... it really says a lot about you and nashwan..
"What I find funny is some Americans claiming Britain's 68 gun murders last year prove gun control doesn't work, but America's 10,000 gun murders a year prove more guns = less crime." - Nashwan "
if you have 68 gun murders before draconian gun bans and then 68 murders after (but increases in other types of crime)... it's not really doing much. If Homicides in the states drop when citizens are allowed to carry concealled then more guns does equal less crime. Or at least it does in America.
The only real way to prove it would be to allow British citizens the right to carry concealled and see how your crime rates looked in a few years.
lazs
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people have the right to protect themselves, no govt should be able to take that away from them.
thank god i was born in the USA.
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UK has been taken over by commies!
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Originally posted by lazs2
and... I have allways liked your sig... it really says a lot about you and nashwan..
I haven't always had that sig. But if you don't like it, I can always change it back to this...
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America’s constitutional right to bear arms is an anachronism dating back to the 18th century. In modern times, it is an unmitigated disaster which has given rise to many millions of privately owned guns and an alarming homicide rate, with a tally of more than 300,000 firearms related homicides in the past 25 years. While no law can be 100% effective, Britain has no “gun culture”, and much stricter firearms controls which have contained the annual tally of gun related homicides to a double digit value - fewer than one fiftieth of the American gun-related homicide rate per 100,000 population.
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Originally posted by john9001
thank god i was born in the USA.
...where your chances of being shot are at least twice as high as they would be in Britain.
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Originally posted by lazs2
And curval... wasn't it Lotts son who was pretending to be someone else and giving his dad good reviews?
Well it couldn't be his wife - she turned into a pillar of salt!
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America’s constitutional right to bear arms is an anachronism dating back to the 18th century. In modern times, it is an unmitigated disaster which has given rise to many millions of privately owned guns and an alarming homicide rate, with a tally of more than 300,000 firearms related homicides in the past 25 years. While no law can be 100% effective, Britain has no “gun culture”, and much stricter firearms controls which have contained the annual tally of gun related homicides to a double digit value - fewer than one fiftieth of the American gun-related homicide rate per 100,000 population.
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Ive been shot a total of three times. Twice just this last week. Most folks in my town have been shot at least once. Not a day goes by that I dont see someone clawing themselves up off the ground after having taken a shot to the chest. It really has become such a way of life most folks dont even flinch when a shot goes off. Even our youngsters here have formed a playground militia, and the goal is to shoot first ask questions later. I love guns.
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"the one thing I notice about "statistics" in england is that they never have anything to do with reality... seems you guys make em suit whatever conclussion you want.. "
In light of this sweeping generalisation about English statistics does it really matter whether it was his son or him?
What about this? (http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/lott98update.html)
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that the best you can do curval? "allmost certainly" it says... "could be pretending" it says... NAS what a laugh... do a serch on this group if you want to see fraudulent and missleading info... they are tools. Lotts methods and the critics of them are examined in his latter book. Even giving the critics the widest possible margin of error...
In the U.S. more guns = less crime.
I don't know why you want to see it differently... why are you so interested in U.S. gun ownership curval... It smacks of someone doing the sour grapes thing... you have no gun rights so you try to take away others..... or, perhaps you are just womanly and truly believe "it is for our own good"? Why are you so quick to jump in to every thread about guns with nashwan (who seems obsessed even tho he lives where there is no danger of the gun culture spredding).
Really... why are you guys so obsessed? You aren't in a possition to have to defend your right to take away others rights in your own little countries.... Why is gun ownership and freedom in the U.S. so threatening to you?
Every gun thread... you guys jump in to try to prove that we would be better off neutered like you guys. Do you really think you have convinced anyone that they are better off having their goverment take away their right to defend themselves?
lazs
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The title of this thread is "Naswan" and posted by Beet1e.
YOU are the one butting in here lazs with your sweeping generalisations about British stats. I simply pointed out that you are the pot calling the kettle black.
You claim, as a point of fact, that it was Lott's son who posted those reviews. Who actually said that? I think you will find it was Lott himself. Therefore in your mind that is fact.
LOL.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Ive been shot a total of three times. Twice just this last week. Most folks in my town have been shot at least once. Not a day goes by that I dont see someone clawing themselves up off the ground after having taken a shot to the chest.
Oh right! I know who you are. You live in Delos. Bet you've also had acid thrown in your face and been set on fire with a mediaeval fire torch! :lol
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/westworld.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
In 1996 there were 141,900 firearms certificates on issue in England and Wales, covering 418,300 firearms, and 638,000 shotgun certificates covering 1,335,000 shotguns.
There were approx 20 - 21 million households.
Watch out for the rather flexible definition of "firearms". West Midlands police said 55% of all "firearms" handed in to them during the amnesty were blank firers, and I'd expect a lot more to be bb guns, antiques, airguns etc.
Very true, many 'firearms' handed in consisted anything that resembled a gun whether it was a replica, air-rifle, or the genuine article.
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For those that say 'gun control' doesn't work in the UK, you really think legalising guns would work? No, I don't think so.
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who cares? I don't care if you get em or not except that I feel soory for any human who wants a gun and has a government that tyranizes him. Like it or not tho... more guns will be in your culture.... they will be in the hands of cops and criminals tho.
And... if a pellet gun was turned in then no gun was turned in.... What idiot claimed it was a gun and part of the turn in success?
We had a similar thing here whenever there is some sort of drive to get people to turn in guns for cash or whatever... savy people turn in unusable guns for more than they are worth even as parts.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
fair enough mechanic.. if you feel that having your firearms rights taken away has given you so much better life and less fear of bgeing killed in england that is up to you. Not sure exacly what gun laws you guys passed tho that dropped your homicide rate so dramaticaly.... My guess is that you just aren't the types of people that murder each other.
I got no problem with you guys limiting yourselves and if you believe that looking at a few handguns makes you proficient with em.... who am I to say? Doesn't seem to work that way here but... maybe people are different there.
But... When we are looking at englands gun control it is not because we want you to have your rights back (we would be happy to help if we could tho).... no... it is because the methods used by your government to disarm you are the same lieing incramentalism that they are trying to jam down our throats...
"What would be wrong with a national gun regestration, we will never use it to confiscate law abiding gun opwners firearms" they say... yet we look at you and see that they are indeed never happy until they have confiscated every gun in the country.
That is the reason we use your country as an example. You may be happy with it but we have a lot more gun owners than you ever had,,, 70-80 million of em. they are nervous and don't want to have their rights removed.... many who don't own guns now would rush out to buy em any way they could if they thought a ban was imminent.
We are just completely different people than you are. We don't have much in common at all except that you speak a very accented version of Californian (except when you sing) Even our countries are very different... we have wide open spaces and differnt state... even wyoming is allmost twice as big as your whole country.
We are simply fighting to preserve our rights as long as we can.... the example of your country and worse... Australlia (which I allways looked at as rugged individuals) your examples show us what will happen to us if we don't fight.
lazs
never said i was proficient in handguns, just showing that having anti-gun laws doesnt make the entire populace ignorant to guns.
can knock anything down with a good rifle tho :p
I'll come by CA some time on my US tour (hopefully next year) and you can educate me if you like :)
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Here we go again!!!!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Beetle, your new avatar, is it 'Old John Tower' in Charnwood Park, near Woodhouse Eves/Loughborough?
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Originally posted by Replicant
Beetle, your new avatar, is it 'Old John Tower' in Charnwood Park, near Woodhouse Eves/Loughborough?
Yes. :aok
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes. :aok
Beautiful area that, not far from where I lived :)