Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rasker on February 05, 2005, 07:14:20 AM
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New A-10C ensures Warthog's long life
Hilltop Times ^ | 2/3/2005 | 1st Lt. James Madeiros and Kari Tilton
The newly designated C-model A-10 Thunderbolt II, modified with precision engagement technology, was flown for the first time at Eglin AFB, Fla., last week, thanks in large part to the work of a small group of people at Hill AFB.
The A-10 Program Office here has been managing the precision engagement program for the past four years. The office’s precision engagement program management team, made up of about 25 people, acts as a liaison between Air Combat Command and the project’s prime contractor, Lockheed Martin Systems Integration.
Calling the A-10C the “best friend to the boots on the ground,” Lt. Col. Mark Donahue, director of the A-10 Program Office, spoke during the rollout ceremony.
“The Air Force always strives to enhance its combat capabilities,” said Lt. Col. Mark Donahue, director of the A-10 Program Office. “The A-10 Precision Engagement modification is the critical first step. Battlefield data-links and upgraded engines, plus expanded cockpit and weapon upgrades are next. These upgrades keep the A-10 viable on the 21st century battlefield until it retires in 2028.
Precision-engagement technology allows the Air Force’s premier close-air support aircraft to also use smart weapons such as Joint Direct Attack Munitions and wind-corrected munitions dispensers, incapable in the previous model, officials said.
“We have taken the world’s greatest close-air support platform and made it even better by adding a wide array of laser and Global Positioning System-aided munitions, the latest in targeting pods and the infrastructure to support data link,” said Maj. Michael Rawls, the pilot who made the flight.
The increased capability also allows for the A-10C to accept more high-value target missions.
Despite some speculation into whether to retire the A-10 in full or in part in years past, its performance in recent conflicts and its program enhancements make it an invaluable part of the Air Force fleet, officials said.
“The A-10 provides a ground commander with a capability no other platform can in terms of survivability, loiter time and array of weapons,” Major Rawls said. “Bottom line, it means (it) is here to stay for awhile.”
For those who have seen an A-10, the new model looks identical from the outside because the modifications are largely in the software and cockpit hardware. The appearance would be different, though, when loaded with a new array of munitions. The new capability will enable the A-10C to carry six smart munitions, with a standard load of four, Major Rawls said.
Although it has not yet flown with a new payload including smart munitions, Major Rawls said he felt that the modifications had not affected the performance of the aircraft.
“The modification moved the center of gravity slightly forward in the aircraft, but it was not distinguishable,” he said. “The jet handled very well.”
The estimated $360 million program has been a joint Air Force and industry effort that leaders said they believe will breathe yet more life into the 30-year-old aircraft.
“We are moving the A-10 into the 21st century with the capability to deliver the latest precision-guided weapons to the battlefield,” said Col. Robert Nolan, 46th Test Wing commander.
[Posters Note: And why not, it does that job better than any plane ever devised (though the Su-24 might come close from a price to performance standpoint). It flies fast enough to do the job, and plenty slow enough as well.]
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Too bad they probably will keep the DU munitions which will mean cancer for centuries in each mid-east country the USAF attacks.
It also affects US troops aswell. In previous war there were no ' xxx war syndromes.' On the introduction of DU ammo, everything changed.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Too bad they probably will keep the DU munitions which will mean cancer for centuries in each mid-east country the USAF attacks.
It also affects US troops aswell. In previous war there were no ' xxx war syndromes.' On the introduction of DU ammo, everything changed.
Feel free to prove your claim.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Too bad they probably will keep the DU munitions which will mean cancer for centuries in each mid-east country the USAF attacks.
It also affects US troops aswell. In previous war there were no ' xxx war syndromes.' On the introduction of DU ammo, everything changed.
You should do some research before you type drivel.
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There is some worldwide concern about the use of DU.
Depleted uranium is almost entirely made up of U238 which is much less radioactive than the U235 isotope used for nuclear fuel.
U238 decays by emitting alpha particles and by spontaneous fission. Alpha particles have a very limited range through air and do not penetrate even very thin layers of most materials. Larger nuclear fragments travel with even more difficulty. Handling bullets probably isn't hazardous as long as direct contact is minimized, and as long as grinding, dust, and powder is not made which could be ingested. Current opinion from the European Union and the State Department is that the radioctivity in depleted-uranium ammunition poses a negligible health effect for soldiers using the ammunition as long as proper handling procedures are followed.
DU is an excellent ammunition as it is almost as dense as tungsten, it's about 70% heavier than lead, and is much easier to form than is tungsten. When it hits armor plate it creates a fine flammable dust that bursts into flame within the armored vehicle. So the people living around spent bullets may not be so fortunate. These toxic dusts (most heavy metals are poisonous), and can be ingested. Alpha particles don't travel very far, but if the uranium is ingested into someone's body, they don't have to travel anywhere to cause their damage.
Certainly the presence of depleted uranium will not make anyone any healthier.
Navy Phalanx Ammo was DU and has been changed to tungsten.
18 countries use DU.
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A-10's are firing Tungsten now because of the very reason mentioned.
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The problem is that on impact some of the DU vaporizes and blows up in dust.
A german nuclear scientist got fined for 3000DM for carrying a standard (used) A-10 ammunition round though Berlin in his bag for radiology studies.
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Legacy.htm
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A-10's are firing Tungsten now because of the very reason mentioned.
Excellent news btw.
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If I had a DU round in my chest, I would have other issues than wondering if the rad would eventually make me loose my hair :D
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Need to produce some more A-10s, and make them 2-seaters. Navy F-14 'bombcats' had a much lower incidence of friendly fire due to the extra pair of eyes.
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If I had a DU round in my chest,
heh, *what* chest? :)
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
If I had a DU round in my chest, I would have other issues than wondering if the rad would eventually make me loose my hair :D
i doubt there would even be anything you could possitively identify as 'your chest' left either :D
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doh! i didnt get as far as your post rasker :o
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radiation saves lives
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Too bad they probably will keep the DU munitions which will mean cancer for centuries in each mid-east country the USAF attacks.
It also affects US troops aswell. In previous war there were no ' xxx war syndromes.' On the introduction of DU ammo, everything changed.
Reading is fundemental...
Link-a-poo (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/)
FYI, cancer existed before DU munitions were used, and guess what, I am pretty confident that cancer will continue after DU munitions.
I'll save you some time, from the WHO,
Potential health effects of exposure to depleted uranium
* In the kidneys, the proximal tubules (the main filtering component of the kidney) are considered to be the main site of potential damage from chemical toxicity of uranium. There is limited information from human studies indicating that the severity of effects on kidney function and the time taken for renal function to return to normal both increase with the level of uranium exposure.
* In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.
* Erythema (superficial inflammation of the skin) or other effects on the skin are unlikely to occur even if DU is held against the skin for long periods (weeks).
* No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver.
* No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
* Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported.
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Such a badarse plane, love it.
But... British troops everywhere shiver in their boots on hearing this news...
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Originally posted by Furball
But... British troops everywhere shiver in their boots on hearing this news...
You guys still cant provide your army with decent quality warm boots? It's a whoopee shame.....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You guys still cant provide your army with decent quality warm boots? It's a whoopee shame.....
thats the labour government for you ;)
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Buuuuuuurp!!!
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Jeezy your link clearly says that if a high levels of pulverized DU is present it poses a threat especially to children playing with the remains.
Reading is important, true, but it's even more important to understand what you read.
How would you explain 10-fold raise in cancer and leukemia levels in iraq ?(comparison pre-war and post-war.)
How do you explain the gulf war syndome?
How do you explain that the British government has already trialed cases and ruled that there are combatants with hundreds of times the allowed amounts of DU in their bodies and subsequently fallen ill? Broken DNA chains which effect the children and their children.
It's nothing to joke about for sure.
Your turn to do some reading (http://www.umrc.net/)
Study of the effects of DU to veterans (http://www.umrc.net/pdf/12_years_too_late.pdf)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How do you explain the gulf war syndome?
I dont I am a lawyer not a doctor.
poses a threat especially to children playing with the remains
read the WHO report:
No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver.
* No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
* Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported.
Yes I know think of the children and all of that...but a lack of evidence is just that a lack.
How do you explain that the British government has already trialed cases and ruled that there are combatants with hundreds of times the allowed amounts of DU in their bodies and subsequently fallen ill? Broken DNA chains which effect the children and their children.
I can prove all kinds of things at trial, that does not make it true. See CAlifornia v. Orenthal J. Simpson.
I read your links. While informative, I fear they may bit a touch biased.
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The WHO report was already years old. There are new evidence presented continuously about the dangers of DU. Dangers which allied desperately want to hide in fear of losing a powerful weapon.
You might aswell present a chart from 1955 civillian testings on radioactive doses performed by the US military.
Little did they know, then.
For all we know DU might be the second asbestos.. commonly used insulator which was used for years untill its delayed effects started killing workers to lung cancer. Now it's totally forbidden and it's handled with protective suites and breathing apparatus.
Common household insulator in the 70's.
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This is the WHO report regarding their findings in Kosovo:
A taste:
Conclusions drawn by the mission:
5. No convincing evidence is available to indicate any health impacts to the Kosovo
population associated with the use of depleted uranium.
Link-it (http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/pub_meet/en/Report_WHO_depleted_uranium_Eng.pdf)
Granted its from 2001
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
You might aswell present a chart from 1955 civillian testings on radioactive doses performed by the US military.
The tests conducted at Tuskeegee, on mainly African American males showed an increased level of cancer among those exposed--it was simply classified not necessarily wrong. The dangerous effects of radiation were know for years prior, in fact Curie died of acute radiation posioning.
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Jeezy I'm sure you'd agree that such tests (tuskagee) would never be performed today on humans.
Even though the dangers of radiation were known, it was apparent that nobody really understood HOW dangerous it was.
Or would the state knowingly risk the lives of it's citizens?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The WHO report was already years old. There are new evidence presented continuously about the dangers of DU. Dangers which allied desperately want to hide in fear of losing a powerful weapon.
You might aswell present a chart from 1955 civillian testings on radioactive doses performed by the US military.
Little did they know, then.
For all we know DU might be the second asbestos.. commonly used insulator which was used for years untill its delayed effects started killing workers to lung cancer. Now it's totally forbidden and it's handled with protective suites and breathing apparatus.
Common household insulator in the 70's.
I read the Plutonium Files. There over 120 "patients" injected with varying doses of Plutonium. One of the "subjects" lived to be over 75 years old.
I can really give a watermelon what you think DU is, might be, or could be. You are fighting an uphill battle and your General is the one feeding the ammo. Read more.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Or would the state knowingly risk the lives of it's citizens?
Unfortunelty, the Tuskeegee trials cannot be consdiered a triumph of American policy.
I disagree about not knowing the dangers. I just got finished reading a bio of Fermi--he know that if his squash court reactor went he would irradiate half of Chicago--this was early 40's.
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According to the document you posted, DU aerosols remain in the lungs and can contain other materials such as plutonium.
Masherbrum it's enlightening to know that you don't give a watermelon of what I think. Now I won't have to worry about hurting your feelings or causing any emotional distress to you.
However the veterans who actually inhaled that stuff (and many of whom are today suffering from the syndrome) surely will disagree with you.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How do you explain the gulf war syndome?
There is a theory that a soup of low levels of nerve and mustard agents and possibly the petro-chemical smoke due to hundreds of well fires contributed to Gulf War Syndrome.
The cause has yet to be definitively determined.
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That doesn't explain similar symptoms experienced at Balcans, though, does it?
No burning oilwells or chemical warfare there. DU yes.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How would you explain 10-fold raise in cancer and leukemia levels in iraq ?(comparison pre-war and post-war.)
How do you explain the gulf war syndome?
Thought they decided it was mainly from us blowing up chemical/biological weapons dumps.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That doesn't explain similar symptoms experienced at Balcans, though, does it?
No burning oilwells or chemical warfare there. DU yes.
You asked,
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How do you explain the gulf war syndome?
If you wanted me to explain the Balkan Conflict Syndrome you should have been more specific.
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Symptoms of Gulf War Illnesses (according to the American Legion)
-Chronic Fatigue
-Signs and symptoms involving skin (including skin rashes and unusual hair loss)
-Headache
-Muscle pain
-Neurologic signs or symptoms (nervous system disorders which could manifest themselves in numbness in one's arm, for instance)
-Neuropsychological signs or symptoms (including memory loss)
-Signs or symptoms involving upper or lower respiratory system
-Sleep disturbances
-Gastrointestinal signs or symptoms (including recurrent diarrhea and constipation)
-Cardiovascular signs or symptoms
-Menstrual disorders
Balkan syndrome seems to be more leukimia cluster oriented.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
According to the document you posted, DU aerosols remain in the lungs and can contain other materials such as plutonium.
Masherbrum it's enlightening to know that you don't give a watermelon of what I think. Now I won't have to worry about hurting your feelings or causing any emotional distress to you.
However the veterans who actually inhaled that stuff (and many of whom are today suffering from the syndrome) surely will disagree with you.
You keep spewing rhetoric about the "Gulf War Syndrome" being caused by Depleted Uranium. You have YET to back up your accusation with FACT, just conjecture. Sit down.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That doesn't explain similar symptoms experienced at Balcans, though, does it?
No burning oilwells or chemical warfare there. DU yes.
Conclusions drawn by the mission:
5. No convincing evidence is available to indicate any health impacts to the Kosovo
population associated with the use of depleted uranium.
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I'm glad I could provide you with signature material siaf. I'm sure you know more than I do about DU. I only instructed on the topic for a year or so. Of course I wouldn't know anything about Gulf War syndrome. I was exposed to DU, nerve agents, and the oil well fires, but thankfully my health has been good.
Bottom line is that DU exposure symptoms are the same symptoms exhibited by exposure to other heavy metals.
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What I have found out is that in war, the official truth tends to be somewhat different from the independent research done later.
I'm glad to hear that you made it out healthy and in one piece if you really were there. And I understand that being a soldier it might be fundamentally difficult to question authority and training. However pre-war even the US army official stance was cautionary towards pulverized DU (IF the documentaries I've seen were reliable, sources like BBC.) DU was to be handled with similar care compared to other nuclear hazards. I saw an interview of a british tank repairman who told that in the service they were on their knees with no protection repairing (or salvaging parts) from friendly-fire cases and then later when they transferred the broken hulls to the saudi-side they were greeted with a fully protected team with geiger meters. He says he was quite astonished at that time.
Jeezy: I was referring to effets in combatants, not civililan population. As I understand it in Kosovo the climate is totally different from Iraq. Iraqi climate is dry, dusty and windy which effectively spreads any aerosols to large distances where Kosovo climate is wet and the terrain grassy which then absorbs microparticles effectively. When the particles stop being airborne they stop being a real hazard. Although I've seen documentaries of researchers doing secret studies in Iraq. The geiger meter redlined in most of the spots which were hit during the conflict with DU weapons. The values varied from 200 to 20000 times the normal background radiation. There were children playing in the tank of which one of the worst levels was measured.