Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zanth on February 06, 2005, 12:21:20 AM
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Once upon a time there was a group of losers with time on thier hands that had computers and liked to fight and die in the virtual air. In those days people asked "are you ok down there?" or "do you need help?" yeah people who violated the fight were spit upon and called newbe dweeb and cast into the outer darkness of Nintendo.
This is not as it is now, no way no how. This isn't a Hitech problem this is a community problem. In this Power Ranger age we live in it is ok to take 5 guys to kill one. It is ok to shoot thru your buddy to get a kill. This is a different age.
Like I said this is not a Hitech problem. I am just an aging Air Warrior missing the old days. But it is sad that we can't pass on the "old ways". There was a time when this was different. I am probably just getting too old and beat up for computer games - but I will always remeber Fighter Town in Air Warrior.
There is no fix this is just a whine..... ah I feel better now.
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Ok?
Hell, it is encouraged.
And it isn't the "airwarrior" days gone by... only game I ever played was AH, and for the first year or so it was a superb game. Since then, the population has gone up, and the skill level has decreased exponentially. Think it is actually past the point of no return.
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its not lost (yet) it just become extremely rare.
there are still sparks if you look closely.
have faith :)
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Like the opinion I stated when you were mentioning this online, those are all old times which have gone away, and it's something that will never come back. I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm just stating what has happened to AH and why.
AH isn't the "Pleasantville" it used be years ago. Maximum population of 100 people or so, everybody knew everybody, and everyone else was your friend.
Back then, the three-country "War" wasn't anything much than just a little spice to add flavor to the Free-For-All fights. Pure FFA gets dull quick, and in terms of gameplay its basically the same thing as playing boxed games in MP arenas. So, a small virtual war aspect was added into the game.
It was just a simple "guidline" and a loose objective for everyone, which was useful for creating variety of nifty situations.
...
Now, the MA's a bustling Metropolis.
500~600 people in prime time. About 80% of my own "countrymen" I don't know who they are. 90% of the entire MA I don't know these guys.
All of the squads which were famed when I logged on, are now much smaller in numbers. The influence of a single skilled veteran in a sector is negligible at best. And massive flights of "amateuers" dominates the skies.
The wholesome "Pleasantville" broke up into three parts, complete with its virtual-reality version of Nationalistic mentalities, and is duking out a harsh, hectic war everyday in the MA.
The main concept of air combat, in truth, is now more closer than ever to that resembling a "real war". What matters is not how you fight the enemy, but how effective you can fight him. Maximal use of force is advised. How many people your side is able to muster, will depend the outcome of the war.
The MAsfolk now fly for a different purpose. They do fly for fun - except, their "fun" is not in aircombat itself, but achieving the collective objective of suppressing enemys, capturing fields, and winning the war.
Things just progress. One must do what he can do either adapt, or be left out.
......
There's a bad side and good side in everything, and same with the MA.
For instance, I try to find my own fun in how I can help out. I don't like joining the horde, so I usually fly against enemy hordes. I try to give my countrymen a nudge on their shoulder to come defend fields. Organizing a defensive can be lots of fun when you can see the real effects of it.
Also, the new MA means that it is constantly a challenge to ever get a single kill. In the old days I could have all the time I wanted, but now, I only have a split-second before some other bad guy joins the fight to ruin it for me. So I try to keep conscious of what's going around for myself and others. Fighting in multiple numbers and large masses does have essence of fun in its own - especially when the odds are against you.
On a less personal side, bigger and more concentrated fights also give out better opportunities of massive collective battles of a grand scale.
The most fun aspect of the MA I enjoy is tank-busting. Seeing from the air our own tanks engaging enemy tanks, and flying in their midst and targetting out enemy tanks and opening up 40mm cannons - that's a thrill I don't want to miss. You couldn't have seen something like this in the old days, since the ground warfare was never really important, or an effective means of field capture.
...
IMO, the largest problem in the MA is that while the "total war" aspect has arrived, but all the basic organizational aspect of a "total war" needed to make it actually fun, rather than become a dull and bland, is left out. AH has come a long way since its beta days, but the basic strat remains almost unchanged.
The simplistic strat aspect of it all was good enough to simulate a small-scale war in the old days, but it is not enough now.
Many stuff, such as logistics for instance, are not in the game. Basic command structures, organizations, flight/mission planning and etc etc. are all missing from the game. The "system", which its role should continuously become more and more important in influencing the game to work smoother, is basically non-intervening.
So what happens is people can mass up and throw anything they have in their disposal, in a chaotic manner, to create a bizarre surrounding in the MA - where people fly around with the mentality of real soldiers in a war, but none of what they do resembles anything to real soldiers.
They run away in face of equal challenge, and rely on others to do the job for them. Abandon friendlies, ignore help calls, desert fields in need of defense, etc etc..
In such an environment where everyone is free to do what he chooses, naturally, they all do the thing which ensures their chance of survival to the max - fly in hordes.
....
The thing that is certain, is that the old days are not gonna come back. However, that doesn't mean that these new days have to be miserable. All we can do, is discuss new aspects and methods on how to restructure the MA into something that makes more sense, and people following that sense, can have some more fun, without leaving out anyone who doesn't like being a part of a horde.
Basically, this, is not a community thing, It's a system thing.
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I fly in a few of the time zones on different occasions with way different arena numbers
Seems to me a good number in the MA is around 150-250. 400 + the furballs can be fun sometimes , but it's basically horde warrior.
Late Euro/PAC/Early US time is interesting , much smaller numbers 80-170 usually, a regular group of more experienced players . Some very good pilots from places like Japan, Korea and Europe (as well as the early morning crew from the US ). Can be slow sometimes in terms of fights per hour , but some really good fights can be found also.
The radio chatter tends to be more friendly banter than smack talk
I think that time is probably more representative of how AH played in the early days.
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and alot of that crew has more than enough skill to provide challenging fights. ;)
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Redd has it right.
a ~200 players MA with small maps are the best. Much more like AH 3 years ago.
With the low number of people, each one counts for more. You get to fight several sorties with the same countrymen vs. the same enemy pilots - then they are not strangers anymore.
I'm currently out of the game due to lack of computing power, so my views don't really count, but the several areanas suggestions (like early-mid-late areanas) start to sound appealing.
This obviously not going to happen as HTC is working hard on TOD and probably will not experiment with their main business as well.
Bozon
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Some of the frustrations inherent in the game, as it now is, really piled up on me yesterday.
While I've been flying, off and on, for about two years, I am in many ways still a newb. Specifically, I've still got a lot of ACM to learn. The only way to learn it is through one-on-one combat with a veteran.
The main arena is the wrong environment for that. While I, and some others, want to learn the tricks of the aces in there, it's just not possible. I can't tell you how many times I attempted to set up a one-on-one fight yesterday, only to find six or seven of my opponent's countrymen busting their nurts trying to gang my six.
With that many back there, no amount of ACM will save you. There are enough of them to counter any move.
I'm a pretty decent, good-natured guy, with a wife, two sons, a host of friends, and two dogs that love me.
But yesterday, the frustrations turned me into an arse. I started spouting off on channel 200. While this isn't the first time I've done it, this was definitely the worst occasion.
The big maps help spread out the horde a bit, and that helps. The small maps, with these types of numbers, are almost hopeless for the type of flying I crave.
Yeah, yeah! I know. Take it to the dueling arena. But my time is limited and the main arena is addictive. Guess I'll just have to make the time somehow.
My pologies to anyone I offended Saturday.
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There is nothin more permanent as change.
Right now is the good old days for a new generation.
They will complain someday about it.
As everything new u get used to it.
Between ur ears u have to stay young otherwise u will fall behind.
I really get pissed my self when i get gangbanged by cherry pickin 4x20mm birds wich just need a few pings to kill u.
But it my fault to choose a plane in wich u have to shoot the crap out of it..
I'm also flying mostly alone and i depend on noone just because thats mostly dissapointing.
my fault i should depend on myself.
There are many different ways to fly a style in the MA Its a skill to adjust in time I myself keeps a bit stuck on the lonewolf style.
my fault again.
im getting nowhere
stop
:)
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I have only been playing AH for about 6 months now but right from the start I always asked if someone was ok when they were engaged before jumping into a fight and then usually hung around a little higher than the fight in case another bad guy turned up. I thought that this was just common courtesy. Even though I still abide by the above I find that it's a rare occasion that the same courtesy is returned.
I have noticed just in the 6 months I have been playing what I perceive as a change in attitude to the gameplay in the MA. All you seem to get now is the problem you have mentioned and others such as not even trying to perform any ACM and just go for the HO, this is not limited to just newbs.
I've run into two guys (both ranked in the 50,s) the first guy I've met 4 times, each time he's been in a 109,Nik and 190, 3 times he HO's and the 3rd he vulches (not bothered about the vulch). The second guy was in a Panzer which I killed, 5 mins later he's back in a Tiger, I shot his tracks out, then got his turret , this guy then towers out and I get the kill. Now does this guy get in another GV to try again? No he ups a set of B24's and comes back and starts divebombing me. After he near enough drops his whole load on me he get's the kill. I don't really care if Jimmie stewart dive bombed buffs in WWII I find the practice contemptable in AH and a lame skilless girlie tactic . (starts frothing at the mouth)
If this is an example that the higher ranks are setting then it's not a wonder that these habits rub off on people just joining.
As stated I don't think the MA is going to have a sudden change and go back to "the good old days" and it's not our $15.00 so you have to put up with it.
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think possitive guys, it aint as bad as you think.
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When I read posts like this, where guys talk about how great the fights and community attitude were back in the good ol' days - I wish more people knew about how great the Combat Theater is on a good night. It's been dead lately, but I swear, get 30-50 people (and make sure Oldman is one of them) in there with well- matched planeset it is everything you guys describe that you miss about the old days.
There was another post recently about squad challenges in the dueling arena. Squad ops are fun in the CT too - in fact with the low icon settings sometimes it really pays to have squadmates calling out the bogeys. Anyway maybe the CT would be a good place for squad challenges, and that might help with getting a 'seed' population in there on a given night. 'course it woudl be a problem if both squads have a 'chosen' ride that is not available in the CT that week.
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I loved AW as much as anyone. The one on one stuff at Fightertown, everything. But this isnt AW. In AW without the HO option you really had to work at gaining the guy's 6 to get a shot.
In here a bullet can come from any direction. Personally I know Ive let my 1 on 1 way of playing slip, and have become a different type of player than I was in AW. Ya maybe the people are different too.
Young guys trying to act too old, old guys acting too young. Times change though. So Im changing with them. Whats the alternative? Hang up the joystick and whittle on the porch?
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Whats the alternative? Hang up the joystick and whittle on the porch?
Salt Water Fishing, Golf, Texas Hold em, Sex, Tequila nights, to name a few ;)
( wait them choices are for those old enough or not to old :D )
but once a pretend combat sim flyer always a combat sim flyer, even if you do change your way of game play, that urge of old will always be there...............
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Land grabbin, alt monkeyin, vulchin no team work. All very familiar complaints.
All very old as well, been hearing them for 8 years or more.
AW moved to AW2and 3 and had to keep the "classic" map up because some just wouldn't leave. There is always change and those who refuse to change with it.
That's not a bad thing, as it provides history and an anchor to the best of the past, but in all honesty the past wasn't perfect. There was just as much complaining about these exact problems back then. We, alot of us, miss AW so tend to remember back to the best of the good old days and push the ugly stuff to the side.
It is normal, my grandma does it, but I can assure you as much as she longs for the good old days (she is 89) I doubt she would really want the buggy and log cabin she had to deal with when she was 15. I fired up AW the other day feeling nostalgic. And I do love AH. What I loved about AW was the people, and those people are here.
We choose how we fly. Who cares what some other dweeb does or says when they fly, simply surround yourself with the people you like, who have similar goals and styles.
The more that the "good" players support and chat amongst themselves on the airwaves, the more the newer less experienced community members will see what real comaraderie is, and then begin to emulate it.
You just have to have patience, and understand that unless we try to teach them how Best to appreciate an online community, they will never gain more than their offline Doom type training gave them.
Once they are taught, and chose to be dweebs, well, that's what dweeb hunts and mute buttons are for.
"Elders" have the responsibility to educate. We do that in life, we do that in here. Someone taught us basic values and manners, which is why there are some very good personalities in this game.
This product HT has produced gives alot of us old timer scenario fans some incredible tools to run events like we begged for in AW, the game has improved, the issues are the players. The players are just people and learn from experience, well, buck up and let's show them what a community is.
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people haven't changed. What has changed is the way the arena is set up and ... the amounts of people in it. I foolishly believed that the more the merrier... I based this erorronious thinking on the fact that when there were few of us we had great fights and more like us would mean more good fights.
Where I erred was in thinking the new guys were like us... they aren't... They have no interest in getting good at air combat. They are extremely frieghtened of being beaten.... even tho they must know that the only way that they will get good is to fight and die... Instead... they tell themselves that they are working towards a "goal" and "teamwork" evewn tho even the lamest amoung them must know that the goals are silly and pointless compared to actually beating another human in virtual combat.
But... we need these losers... we need em to pay HT and co. and allow him to stay in bussiness. Sure, they are pale, spineless untalented, mouse weilding building battlers that most often ruin the game but... I guess we need em. Otherwise they would be spending theri money at some star trek convention or role playing game. Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
people haven't changed. What has changed is the way the arena is set up and ... the amounts of people in it. I foolishly believed that the more the merrier... I based this erorronious thinking on the fact that when there were few of us we had great fights and more like us would mean more good fights.
Where I erred was in thinking the new guys were like us... they aren't... They have no interest in getting good at air combat. They are extremely frieghtened of being beaten.... even tho they must know that the only way that they will get good is to fight and die... Instead... they tell themselves that they are working towards a "goal" and "teamwork" evewn tho even the lamest amoung them must know that the goals are silly and pointless compared to actually beating another human in virtual combat.
But... we need these losers... we need em to pay HT and co. and allow him to stay in bussiness. Sure, they are pale, spineless untalented, mouse weilding building battlers that most often ruin the game but... I guess we need em. Otherwise they would be spending theri money at some star trek convention or role playing game. Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
ouch, thats cold.
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Yea, but it is true.
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Well put Lazs2! I'm still new(3 months) and on the rare occasions I find a good 1vs1 it's laughable. Guys that have been here years still have no clue as to what and when to do ACM's. Some of them ask me how I got to were I am so fast and I tell them I've been in the TA and DA for those 3 months(spend very little time in the MA) getting my butt handed to me by Ghosth, Shane, Furball, bovidae, Morph and the list goes on and on. And I think the problem is, they can't stand to lose, just like you said. Also, I believe they have what I call the "MA mentality" where you fly in your horde and cherry pick. At the end of the day they have a score of 500 or lower and think they're great. Just my thoughts...
Also, I'm not in any way trying to sound like I'm awesome and can beat most of the guys that post here...I can't. Do I think I will be able to in the future... you bet ya:D
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Originally posted by SuperDud
1. Guys that have been here years still have no clue as to what and when to do ACM's.
2. Some of them ask me how I got to were I am so fast and I tell them I've been in the TA and DA for those 3 months
3. I think the problem is, they can't stand to lose, just like you said.
4. Also, I'm not in any way trying to sound like I'm awesome and can beat most of the guys that post here...I can't. Do I think I will be able to in the future... you bet ya:D
1. Spot-on. Bear in mind, some simply just.. can't, for a variety of reasons from genetic to equipment to simple lack of ambition.
2. that's one of the best ways to get better at handling various rides and learning their capabilities - SA will come thru experience, but the skills you learn will only complement the SA you develop.
3. Spot-on. Fragile egos.
4. that's the 'tude to take.
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Its always occured to me that the lost traditions being mourned here are associated with the days in which arenas were smaller. Yet, I don't see the argument being made that perhaps the smaller arena environment was a major factor in developing those traditions.
I believe its so.
When your friends and enemas number in the hundreds, they tend to become faceless, of little more importance than the terrain and airspace you operate in.
When its just a few dozen on each side, people get to know each other well, and begin to form bonds, both intra-team and inter-team. How many of us can remember those enema we used to love to Hate? :)
Its always been my opinion that an assortment of smaller arenas (perhaps each with a different setup, perhaps not) would be a breeding ground for more closely knit communities within the larger overall community. Baby steps grow.
Food for thought (©Lugs)
culero
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PS - Shane, U suXX0r! :þ
culero ;)
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Some of them ask me how I got to were I am so fast and I tell them I've been in the TA and DA for those 3 months(spend very little time in the MA) getting my butt handed to me by Ghosth, Shane, Furball, bovidae, Morph and the list goes on and on.
you forgot megadud :p
megadud
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Interesting tread, although it has been in the forums many times in one form or another, still good points.
This is my take on the whole thing, and anyone that has lived or does live in a small town like myself will probably agree.
The MA is like a small town, I live in a relatively small town, pop. 2600.
Here, everyone knows just about everyone, they all have a history, some good/some not so good. They all know just about everyone {or at least "heard the name"}
Funny thing is although most are friendly and welcome your conversation and points of veiw. There is always a few here and there that overall are just not this way.
The reason being, it's a small town, you can be not so nice or back stab because in the end all you have is all the same people {give or take a couple} still living in this small town. You can get away with poor behavior, hurtful talk and other unpleasant things because all you have at the end of the day is the same group ya started with.
This has been the case in the MA since day one, it's not that it's a bad thing or great thing. The community is what the community makes itself. There is no huge group of people moving into the arena that anyone has to be leary of or mean too. Again, all we have is each other, the same group we have fun & great laughs with and the same group we are mean and disrespectful too.
I have played for the last 6 months WW2 Online, although a similar game {and NO this isn't a comparison between ww2 online and AH} the "town" or "MA" is much larger than AH's.
Not that this is good or bad thing, you soon learn you're not in a "small town" anymore. Brotherhood, comradre' , friendly personable chat and since of pride are hard to find. Sure you have your squadmates and a few countrymen around, but trrust me you're not in that small town anymore. You cant spout off at the enemy on ch200 or tell a foe "good shot" or "nice fight" You either took his life or he took yours.
Moral of the story:
We can choose as a small town to continue to have a nice place to grow and raise the kids, see an old friend at the diner or say hello to the grumpy guy at the newspaper stand. OR we can nit pick, back stab and belittle each other because at the end of the day or the next day when we wake up, it's still all the same people. Even the grumpy guy at the paper stand that is always there, that you know you wouldn't trade for anyone.
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Originally posted by MOIL
Interesting tread, although it has been in the forums many times in one form or another, still good points.
This is my take on the whole thing, and anyone that has lived or does live in a small town like myself will probably agree.
The MA is like a small town, I live in a relatively small town, pop. 2600.
Here, everyone knows just about everyone, they all have a history, some good/some not so good. They all know just about everyone {or at least "heard the name"}
Funny thing is although most are friendly and welcome your conversation and points of veiw. There is always a few here and there that overall are just not this way.
The reason being, it's a small town, you can be not so nice or back stab because in the end all you have is all the same people {give or take a couple} still living in this small town. You can get away with poor behavior, hurtful talk and other unpleasant things because all you have at the end of the day is the same group ya started with.
This has been the case in the MA since day one, it's not that it's a bad thing or great thing. The community is what the community makes itself. There is no huge group of people moving into the arena that anyone has to be leary of or mean too. Again, all we have is each other, the same group we have fun & great laughs with and the same group we are mean and disrespectful too.
I have played for the last 6 months WW2 Online, although a similar game {and NO this isn't a comparison between ww2 online and AH} the "town" or "MA" is much larger than AH's.
Not that this is good or bad thing, you soon learn you're not in a "small town" anymore. Brotherhood, comradre' , friendly personable chat and since of pride are hard to find. Sure you have your squadmates and a few countrymen around, but trrust me you're not in that small town anymore. You cant spout off at the enemy on ch200 or tell a foe "good shot" or "nice fight" You either took his life or he took yours.
Moral of the story:
We can choose as a small town to continue to have a nice place to grow and raise the kids, see an old friend at the diner or say hello to the grumpy guy at the newspaper stand. OR we can nit pick, back stab and belittle each other because at the end of the day or the next day when we wake up, it's still all the same people. Even the grumpy guy at the paper stand that is always there, that you know you wouldn't trade for anyone.
sounds like desperate housewives...but with AH..you might have something here...
give cbs a call...:aok
megadud
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re-title it "Desperate Sheep Guys" and you might have a winner.
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Originally posted by Shane
1. ... to simple lack of ambition.
You must have been lookin' in my direction when you typed this. :D
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AMen ROC...the MA is the TA for scenarios..nothing else matters.
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The CT I believe is where you separate the men from the boys ....and from Michael Jackson.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
I loved AW as much as anyone. The one on one stuff at
Fightertown, everything. But this isnt AW. In AW without the HO
option you really had to work at gaining the guy's 6 to get a shot./B]
I always thought it took more skill to get the 6 or an angle shot.
In AW it was fun to do that. AH is HO heaven.:rolleyes:
Also the divebombing buffs is way out of line, BUT it's important
to someone with connections so we're stuck with it.
SCDR
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With ya 110%
~A
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yeah, the old days were definitely more personal.. intersquad rivalries between the assassins and 13th were always a blast and it was fun cleaning up entire sectors with just 6 or 7 guys in 190s. used to be able to cap fields easily like that, too.
now you need 20-30 to be successful.. shrug. what i hope is that once ToD comes out it will split up the #s and we can go back to having good old small MA furballing and then have a seperate strat server. i'd probably do both myself.
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Hmm, seems to be some selective memory loss in this thread. AW had a "ho option"...planes with centerline guns received a bonus chance to hit on head on shots (and they used it). There were also divebombing buffs in AW...and B17s that would stall turn at 1k and fighters that could stall, turn 180 and then climb after an opponent.
Neither game can lay a claim to perfection...accept in memory. :)
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Bottom line is it's still up to me how I present myself in the arena. I can choose to HO, or not.
I can choose to talk to folks, tell someone nice shot, ask if a guy needs help before diving in on his fight etc.
You lead by example, not by expecting the other guy to act the way you want em to first. And you hope that if enough folks do those things, the message will get across.
And it's still just a game that for me lets me believe if only for a brief time now and then that I might have been a fighter pilot in another life somewhere.
This is right before I get shot down of course or after I'm back at base with another roll of duct tape patching up my 38G.
Great fun either way as long as I don't forget how I expect myself to act.
Dan/Slack
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Zanth! I enjoy your posts! I had the best laugh I've ever had on this BBS when you said "...unless the LA7 pilot is a complete idiot. Granted, there's a 50/50 chance of that" :lol
My last complete tour (T49) ended about a year ago, and I lost interest in what the game had become. Many of the reasons for that are the very things being discussed in this thread. ^
SLO has a thread going, asking why he should come back. Well, there's new planes, new graphic effects with smoke/fire - but (and someone beat me to it by saying this) if that was what floated my boat, I could enjoy all that offline, and not have to pay $14.95/month. Going the graphic effects route is like rating a movie according to how many crashes/fires/explosion there are. (Watched ConAir last night - was embarrassed to have stayed up for it)
As to the community... Originally posted by lazs2
... thinking the new guys were like us... they aren't... They have no interest in getting good at air combat. They are extremely frieghtened of being beaten.... even tho they must know that the only way that they will get good is to fight and die... Instead... they tell themselves that they are working towards a "goal" and "teamwork" evewn tho even the lamest amoung them must know that the goals are silly and pointless compared to actually beating another human in virtual combat.
But... we need these losers... we need em to pay HT and co. and allow him to stay in bussiness. Sure, they are pale, spineless untalented, mouse weilding building battlers that most often ruin the game but... I guess we need em. Otherwise they would be spending theri money at some star trek convention or role playing game. Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.
...someone once said (I think it was SOB) that Lazs and I are flip sides of the same coin. With regard to the game, what Lazs wants and what I want are diametrically opposed, and yet... I sort of agree with SOME of what he's saying here. Or at least I feel the same way about the people he's talking about, but for different reasons. I certainly agree with Lazs that the people he's talking about have no interest in air combat. That much is obvious from the way they will only fly from a 5 plane subset of the 70+ planes provided, and will whine - even threaten to cancel accounts - if those 3, 4 or 5 planes are unavailable.
But I don't agree that the goals of base capture are "silly and pointless". ACM is clearly going to be a key skill in a game like AH (or at least it used to be) but in isolation would not hold my interest. Imagine a game like Cricket or Baseball - or even football (by which I mean football, played with a round ball) - in any game like that, there are skills/techniques - but there is also a scoreboard. When a side is down, they have to fight like tigers to avoid losing the game. It's the score - the objective - that's driving them to win. Without that objective, those games would look the way they do when a side has the game in the bag, and is merely running the clock down - triangular passing in football, stone walling in cricket etc. Sure, the participants are using their skills - but it's boring.
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ah... So the brits have a history of making games boring with strat?
"those games would look the way they do when a side has the game in the bag, and is merely running the clock down - triangular passing in football, stone walling in cricket etc. Sure, the participants are using their skills - but it's boring."
That is what is happening now... it is "smart" to horde... it is the way to "win".... if the reseting of the fields is the idea behind "winning"
But what does it matter? The guys who are the worst offenders aren't interested enough in the community to read this board anyway. They have no idea how little we think of them.
I just never realized how timid and worried about "image" people were... even under a "handle". When we paid a couple bucks an hour to play we sure as hell didn't have the money to kid ourselves that we were having fun hiding from every good furball.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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. AH is HO heaven.
It takes a milli second to recognize a ho and another milli second to turn someone ho'ness to a 6 shot.
If you ***** head on shots then I submit you are one of the reasons fighting has gone downhill. You simply don't how to respond.
You get more ACM using someone ho'ness then you do with some head on 'shield'.
'All they do is HO'--- Sweat Jesious get some time in the DA.
CBC Archive Buzz Beurling radio interview 1948 (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-177-990-20/that_was_then/conflict_war/buzz_beurling) --- he's a HO....
Soviet Pilot Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako:
Q: Did the Germans sometimes attack you instead of the Il’s? What did you do then?
A: Yes, sometimes they did. I countered this the same way I would counter an attack on the Il’s – a head-on counter-attack and then a turn onto the bandits tail in the blind spot below and behind him so that he loses sight of me. If he [slows down/turns] even a little I’ll hit him.
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski on Discovery Wings Legends of Airpower
You're not out there to glamorize the destruction of fighter aircraft, you are there on a specific mission to keep those bombers from being shot down. In other words if you could scare away - which we have on many occasions - where the Fw 190s and 109's would break off because we'd start coming in head on to them with our guns wide open and so forth firing on them so they'd turn over and go down to the deck. We wouldn't follow them, naturally, because we did our job.
I can post much more, from PAC to WETO to Eastern Fornt. Pilots went head on in real life. There are tried and true tactics to use a head on to your advantage.
Whining about all them 'head on attacks' just proves the point about how low the skill level in this game is.
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Ive said it over and over.
Any change to a communities behaivor is due to the VETERAN PLAYERS short commings in MENTORING OF NEW PLAYERs.
New players arnt "lame by nature" they just dont know the "code of the game". They get a game which is very open ended and try to learn to survive battles and get a kill now and then.
The skill of the vets is very high and the skill of the new players is very low. So inorder to survive they have to do anything they can come up with. To get a kill they do anything they can come up with.
As a new player you are very open to help from vets because you want to learn. If you dont get any you learn on your own and do what ever it takes to close the gap to the veteran players.
If the noobs arnt mentored they will do things that vets consider lame. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE TOLD EM ANYTHING NO ONE SHOWED EM HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE.
Its amazing to see how many vets whine about lame here lame there and yet do nothing to educate and mentor new players.
Ofcourse there are exceptions to this. Our squad 369th Synergy Corps has gotten alot of help from Flyboy who has been great in helping us. There are great and very helpfull vets but Im sorry to say that most vets only care about them selfs and their own squad.
So many times have players in our squad asked over country and range chat "Where do you need our eggs?", "What needs to be hit", "Who needs help" and not gotten any answer what so ever.
Are you suppriced that Fighter Hangers get porked by noob bomber pilots when the vets cant even tell em where to put the ges WHEN THEY ASK?
Are you really suppriced that noobs dont give six calls when they see vets who just line up on planes on their six to get the kill without telling em its there?
Its like raising kids. If you dont lead by example your kid is gonna do exactly what you do. If you dont tell the kid what is right and what is wrong the chance is great the kid will do wrong. If you dont explain why things should be done in a certain way the kid wount do it. If you scream at a kid he will do anything to dispite you.
So its really up to the Vets to change the situation not to the new players.
Tex.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I foolishly believed that the more the merrier... I based this erorronious thinking on the fact that when there were few of us we had great fights and more like us would mean more good fights.
Erorronious? Did you mean errogenous, or have you had an email from blitz-? ;) As to your comment - well, I tried to tell you, but you wouldn't have it!
Wotan quoted Gabreski thus: You're not out there to glamorize the destruction of fighter aircraft, you are there on a specific mission ...
What's that word the yanks use, when they agree with someone 110%? I think the word sounds like Jackal's house... ;) Seriously, those words from Gabreski are exactly how I feel about flightsimdom. YMMV, and probably does. I very much liked Gabreski, when I met him in 2000.
Wotan - happy birthday for Thursday, in case I forget...
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Originally posted by oboe
When I read posts like this, where guys talk about how great the fights and community attitude were back in the good ol' days - I wish more people knew about how great the Combat Theater is on a good night. It's been dead lately, but I swear, get 30-50 people (and make sure Oldman is one of them) in there with well- matched planeset it is everything you guys describe that you miss about the old days.
There was another post recently about squad challenges in the dueling arena. Squad ops are fun in the CT too - in fact with the low icon settings sometimes it really pays to have squadmates calling out the bogeys. Anyway maybe the CT would be a good place for squad challenges, and that might help with getting a 'seed' population in there on a given night. 'course it woudl be a problem if both squads have a 'chosen' ride that is not available in the CT that week.
Actually I think the CT is far far worse than the MA ever has been. Plenty of newer sticks (good ones) have ventured into the CT to get gangbanged by the little cliques. Now, 18 months ago the CT was the place to be...but as some of the "squads" migrated to the CT from the MA they brought their garbage with them.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hmm, seems to be some selective memory loss in this thread. AW had a "ho option"...planes with centerline guns received a bonus chance to hit on head on shots (and they used it). There were also divebombing buffs in AW...and B17s that would stall turn at 1k and fighters that could stall, turn 180 and then climb after an opponent.
Neither game can lay a claim to perfection...accept in memory. :)
:D Not claiming to have perfect memory. In AW there was no HO
option. If you hit someone from the front it was from an angle.
Moggy said it was to keep the dweebs from ruining the fun most
people wanted to have. Collisions were off also. I used to start
a fight that way, when it was 1 v 1. Both fly thru each other than
"Fight On!" and worked to get the best angle you could.
I didn't do much buffing in AW, so I don't know. Most of the
bombing I did was with a hvy fighter and usually with the Sq.
NB you got to agree, the current way AH allows buffs to DB is
ridiculous.
SCDR
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Originally posted by Wotan
It takes a milli second to recognize a ho and another milli second to turn someone ho'ness to a 6 shot.
If you ***** head on shots then I submit you are one of the reasons fighting has gone downhill. You simply don't how to respond.
You get more ACM using someone ho'ness then you do with some head on 'shield'.
'All they do is HO'--- Sweat Jesious get some time in the DA.
Maybe my ACM sux in AH, maybe not. IF I vis a plane coming in
with guns blazing I WILL return fire, if I have a shot. You think
I'm going to just let them get a free kill?
I have never gone to DA. No interest in it. Maybe you ment TA.
SCDR
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If you chose to joust then don't ***** about head ons.
If you can't see a way to use a head on to your advantage then yes you need some help.
There's been numerous threads on how to work a head on to your advantage. Lephturn (original AH trainer) had a web page article entitled 'How to avoid the Head on' or something like that.
I meant the DA because the TA is full newbs and you wont learn anything that way.
Find you a seasoned pro and have whup your arse a few times until learn something. They will even show you how to not get suckered into that head on folks complain about so much.
As I said you will see more ACM by those folks who know how to re-act to a head on then you will from those hiding behind a head on shield.
Instead of taking the high risk shot dive below and slightly off to one side of the attacker. From there your options are wide open.
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Wotan - happy birthday for Thursday, in case I forget...
Thanks bud...
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Originally posted by lazs2
Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
You are wrong, they do. I read, for example.
And this is one of the main reason why I fly La-7 almost exclusively, never asked for help and don't want to enter any squad.
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Originally posted by SCDR
:D Not claiming to have perfect memory. In AW there was no HO
option. If you hit someone from the front it was from an angle.
Moggy said it was to keep the dweebs from ruining the fun most
people wanted to have. Collisions were off also. I used to start
a fight that way, when it was 1 v 1. Both fly thru each other than
"Fight On!" and worked to get the best angle you could.
I didn't do much buffing in AW, so I don't know. Most of the
bombing I did was with a hvy fighter and usually with the Sq.
NB you got to agree, the current way AH allows buffs to DB is
ridiculous.
SCDR
Actually there was a "ho option". The way head ons worked in AW was you were given a 10% chance of a hit. Each ho shot was checked with a randomizer and if you didn't get the 10%...you didn't get a hit. Now, once BB became the lead developer, planes with centerline guns got a 'bonus' since there was no convergence. Ever notice the number of 38 drivers that seemed to live by the head on? :)
SCDR, you might try barrel rolling out of the next head on you are in. I take head on hits in less than 1% of my engagements and usually end up in a surperior position because I don't take the shot. :D
BTW, I never cared much for buff driving either (watching paint dry is more exciting), however I did attack plenty of them and everything you see here was there also (as far as tactics go)...without spin fighting bombers.
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Originally posted by Vad
You are wrong, they do. I read, for example.
And this is one of the main reason why I fly La-7 almost exclusively, never asked for help and don't want to enter any squad.
Doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to spen your time in AH. The la7 so outclasses almost everything except perk rides (and most of them too) in the low alt hordefest that is the MA that frankly there is no challenge whatsoever in flying it. Maybe if you go into a 5 or more on 1 and don't run then its a challenge, but even then you could just run away and never give those 5 guys a chance at ya. It takes about as much skill as it would to take an F16 up against an f86 or mig15... none.
Try different rides, you'll become much better and appreciate the game and other pilots more.
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Originally posted by Stang
Doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to spen your time in AH. The la7 so outclasses almost everything except perk rides (and most of them too) in the low alt hordefest that is the MA that frankly there is no challenge whatsoever in flying it. Maybe if you go into a 5 or more on 1 and don't run then its a challenge, but even then you could just run away and never give those 5 guys a chance at ya. It takes about as much skill as it would to take an F16 up against an f86 or mig15... none.
Try different rides, you'll become much better and appreciate the game and other pilots more.
Quite right, Stang. :aok You once said we would agree more than disagree about gameplay...
And now you can see the problem. The reason the LA7 is so often chosen is because it provides no challenge. Seems some folks don't want any form of challenge. Do I want to share an arena with folks like that? Erm...
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Originally posted by Wotan
I meant the DA because the TA is full newbs and you wont learn anything that way.
Wotan, come on into the TA. I think you'll find it humbling when you fight a few of us in there. Not saying I personally can beat you(although theres a few guys that I'd put my money on in there), but I bet I'll give you a good run for your money. Sorry if this comes off like an attack on you, it's not. I just think this is a big misconception about the TA. All the older guys think the TA is for newbies when there are actually a lot of good pilots in there who are training the newbies and will train anyone, including vets. Some of these pilots are in there day in and day out. I garantee you go to the TA and find the right guys your fighting skills will soar!
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Originally posted by Stang
Doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to spen your time in AH.
Not enjoyable for whom? For you - may be. For me it is ok so far.
Try different rides, you'll become much better and appreciate the game and other pilots more.
I appreciate this game very much. It is not me who whine about crowds of La-7, score potatos, land grabbing, low and dive bombers, hordes and 88's acks. It is not me who complain about vulche and cherripicking on ch200. One thing I hated in this game was ENY limiter but it is not the problem for me anymore because rooks never have numbers these days.
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Quit nockin the lala. its the only plane that gives me a chance to protect a field solo from the horde. Flying at 8-12k in a pack waiting for dummies to bring the fight up from the deck so the cherrypickin can begin is no better or worse. I love defending fields personaly and i choose the best plane for the job. :) when we have enuff squaddies for a good ftr mission i will gladly jump in another "skill" plane. pilot makes the ride dweeby not the plane, unfortunately the la is rarely used to its abilities despite overmatching most planes in the arena..i find that odd.
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Here is how you can make yourself feel good about who you are.
Choice #1.
Become a good flight sim pilot and take on anyone in any plane under any conditions (even the LA7s :rolleyes: ). Win or lose does not matter because you know you gave all you had and made it very hard for the other guy to win, if he did.
Choice #2.
Get some skills. Become average enough to survive at the edge of a furball when friendlies can bail you out, or you can safelly chery pick, or fly at 20K and engage when the bud guy is outnumbered and lower. That will make you feel average. However, there is a trick. If you do all that in a lesser plane, then you feel like a really good pilot landing 4 kills in a p40 or MOSS, or what ever. You will get a ton of WTFGs and after you land your HOs and vulches. But that will just make you feel good. Here is where the second trick comes in. Come to the BBBS and put down the other players and the planes they fly, while talking about the skills it takes to fly the plane you use.
Now you feel good, and the comunity learns about how good you are. You are now a seasoned vet and somehow, your opinion counts more than the guy that flies the SpitV, NIK, or LA7.
:lol
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ROFL Dedalos! :lol:aok
Chicago NW? I lived in Mt. Prospect...
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Originally posted by humble
Actually I think the CT is far far worse than the MA ever has been. Plenty of newer sticks (good ones) have ventured into the CT to get gangbanged by the little cliques. Now, 18 months ago the CT was the place to be...but as some of the "squads" migrated to the CT from the MA they brought their garbage with them.
Keep checking back in, Humble, we're experiencing a resurgence of sorts. The addition of the 38G has helped the numbers some, as well as creating a better balance in mid-war plane sets. Lots of old faces have returned. And while no one can guarantee that you won't get ganged, it certainly doesn't compare with what I've seen on the occasions I've stuck my head into the MA (where I often have trouble just getting airborne).
- oldman (Oboe wants me there so that all visitors are guaranteed at least one kill; we find it keeps them coming back.)
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL Dedalos! :lol:aok
Chicago NW? I lived in Mt. Prospect...
Used to live in Arlington Heights. Now moved to Crystal Lake
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Keep checking back in, Humble, we're experiencing a resurgence of sorts. The addition of the 38G has helped the numbers some, as well as creating a better balance in mid-war plane sets. Lots of old faces have returned. And while no one can guarantee that you won't get ganged, it certainly doesn't compare with what I've seen on the occasions I've stuck my head into the MA (where I often have trouble just getting airborne).
- oldman (Oboe wants me there so that all visitors are guaranteed at least one kill; we find it keeps them coming back.)
I've been looking for any type of numbers....been real quiet but I'll pop in if it's over 10-12....
I really dont have any issue getting ganged....but if you have 8-10 guys on a side and 8 of em (on each side) are milkrunning...then the 1 or 2 guys facing the "mini-horde" are relying on them to show some common sense. The last 3 times I logged on to CT I ended up 7-10 on 1....
Not a problem if 3-4 guys engage and the others wait or go on....but why bother if you cant get some chance to play. Hopefully it'll go back somewhat to how it was....I'll pop in and check it back out...
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Last night was the last straw, I had an enema with alt run to a buff for protection. If he hadn't of turned so hard, dove, and tried to hover within its guns and actually used his advantage he would of had a fighting chance.
Afterwards, asking the nameless person (I didn't mention any names then or now) what the heck he was thinking he proceeded to flame me.
I'm done with channel 200, I have friends on the Rooks and the Bish but dealing with this BS is giving me an ulcer.
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Originally posted by Delirium
Last night was the last straw, I had an enema with alt run to a buff for protection. If he hadn't of turned so hard, dove, and tried to hover within its guns and actually used his advantage he would of had a fighting chance.
Afterwards, asking the nameless person (I didn't mention any names then or now) what the heck he was thinking he proceeded to flame me.
I'm done with channel 200, I have friends on the Rooks and the Bish but dealing with this BS is giving me an ulcer.
Deli...
Grab a roll of Tums and move on. :)
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Originally posted by Delirium
I had an enema
I hope that made you feel better, and that you soon have your regularity back under control. :D:aok
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Judging by the BS that spews from you in the Officers Club, you definitely don't have that problem. :D :aok
Originally posted by beet1e
I hope that made you feel better, and that you soon have your regularity back under control. :D:aok
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Hiding in a buff formations gun arc?? LMFAO! WTF!!!!! That is a new one for for me... holy crap we need a name!
:rofl
:lol
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Stang, I humbly submit the title of "Buff Bunny" to be applied to the pilot hiding in the buff's gun arc.
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I have seen this happen enough in my time in AH, and even AW.
I call them "streakers"... yanno, running in the buff...
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I tend to agree with what Redd said near the top of this thread.
It seems that there is some kind of "critical number" in the MA, when the whole attitude suddenly seems to change dramatically.
At the times i am able to play i usually experience three different population stages:
1. Early EURO time (before lunch), around 60-80 people in the MA
Pro: Friendly chat, after a few times you recognize most guys flying along you and after a few more times you also know the guys you flying against
Contra: Finding a fight can be frustrating, one just spends much time burning fuel for nothing
Comment:surprisingly the MA in that timezone still looks the same as 2 years ago when i left AH, it almost feels as if there is no change
2. Afternoon EURO time, around 150-200
Pro: chat usually is friendly, with just a few guys complaining, you may not recognize anybody around but you usually "have a heard" of most guys after a while, finding a fight is way easier than in 1., but Hordes are rarely seen
Contra: only drawback of this timezone is when one country almost equals the two others in strength, i noticed that a few times with the knights, cause to EUROs the knights seem somewhat more attractive than the bishops/rooks, why i don't know
3. Late EURO time, population >300
Pro: Fights everywere, no problem in finding adversaries
Contra: Horde mentality all around, it's either being jumped by X or jumping a red icon with X, fights between equal numbers almost non existing, chat is full of trash talking and you don't know most people
Comment: This is the least enjoyable time to fly for me, balanced fights are almost non-existent and if you find one, the average "hordist" usually turns around and tries to make it back to his crowd
If you chose to joust then don't ***** about head ons.
Fully agreed Wotan.
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I don't really care what plane you fly so long as you fight... that means getting slow enough to fight in the furball and not run.. Heck... most of the fast panes accelerate and climb fast enough that they don't need to run really.
A lot of guys say that they are using their late war fast planes to their strengths by running all the time and cherry picking... that is only one of their strengths in my opinion. I don't hat the la la's... at least they will fight most of the time... 51's and luftwaffle stuff hardly every...
If you want to get good get into a slow plane and fight. you will die a lot .... so what? I don't even know who you are now so being timid hasn't helped. The only reason a lot of the new guys name are even heard is because of the excuses they make on 200...
Just fight.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by dedalos
Used to live in Arlington Heights. Now moved to Crystal Lake
I live in Wheaton my self....
Chi