Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Guppy35 on February 06, 2005, 10:06:27 PM
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I know you mentioned that Pyro might speak to this.
The reason I ask.
I have about as comprehensive a P38 library as you can find. I've been hunting 80th FS P38Gs in the Squadron history as well as my other stuff.
More often then not I can find a P38 ID'd as a G in one book and an F or H in another.
Examples:
Corky Smith's first P38 "Dottie from Brooklyn" ID'd as an F in one source and a G in another.
John Jones P38 "GI Annie/Li'l DeIcer" ID'd as a G in one source and an H in another.
Ed Cragg's well known P38 "Porky II" ID'd as a G in one source and an H in another. I think that one is an H, but you get the idea.
Lots of the Pac birds didn't have the serial left on the tail and unless you get a close up shot showing the data box under the cockpit there is really no way of knowing for sure.
I'd like to do "Dottie from Brooklyn" or "GI Annie" as I have enough photos etc to do them but I don't know what source you'd accept?
These 80th birds at least have some decent color and nose art showing.
But I don't want to put too much time in, if they aren't going to fly so to speak.
Dan/Slack
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Coupla thoughts here -
Is it possible to check Lockheeds or the USAF records against the aircraft's serial number to determine wether it was 'F' of 'G'?
Or maybe a book like America's 100,000 would have detail information about the change over from F to G and at what point in the serial numbers that occurred.
Finally a question. Was it possible to field upgrade an 'F' airframe into a 'G'? I know the differences were minor...
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Originally posted by oboe
Coupla thoughts here -
Is it possible to check Lockheeds or the USAF records against the aircraft's serial number to determine wether it was 'F' of 'G'?
Or maybe a book like America's 100,000 would have detail information about the change over from F to G and at what point in the serial numbers that occurred.
Finally a question. Was it possible to field upgrade an 'F' airframe into a 'G'? I know the differences were minor...
That becomes the problem though. The serial isn't showing on many of the Pac birds, and they were operating F, G & H's together. Unless you have a close up shot of the data block under the cockpit, you really can't tell.
Now if it's that serious to determine if it is really a G, I suppose I could order the microfillm from the Air Force Historical Research Agency for the 8th FG and hope that they detailed it in their daily mission lists, and then connect pilot to serial number and hopefully make a more educated guess.
But if John Stanaway, who wrote the 8th FG History as well as many other 38 books, hasn't done it, or gotten it right, I'm not sure it's a lock to track down.
But it needs to be understood that the three small intake variants that were used extensively in combat were being flown together.
It wasn't like once the G arrived all the Fs were removed, or when the H arrived the G's retired. It is clear that you'd find a pilot in an H being winged by a pilot in a G or an F, or vice versa and this was well into 44.
Dan/Slack
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Sorry for the delay. I'll nail down Pyro about this.
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Thanks Skuzzy
One of the early model 38s in question , Lt. Corky Smith's "Dottie from Brooklyn" in which he got his first 3 kills on the way to Ace status in his next 38 "Corky Jr"
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1107818938_dottie1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1107818962_dottie2.jpg)
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By the way, Pyro said he wanted to do some more research before he made a final call/post on this topic.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
By the way, Pyro said he wanted to do some more research before he made a final call/post on this topic.
Thanks Skuzzy. I'll loan him my 38 library if it will help :)
I'd suggest the following that clearly document the F,G, H all flying together well into 44.
"And Escort of P38s-The 1st FG in WW2" by John Mullins
"Adorimini-The 82nd FG in WW2" by Steve Blake
"Attack & Conquer-The 8th FG in WW2" by John Stanaway
There are others but these show clearly that both in the MTO and Pacific that the three early 38s were going strong together from 42-44
Dan/Slack
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Dan, you should just have Pyro call you and get the info. :)
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Pyro would tell him he is still researching it. No, we need to get this out in front of everyone.
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My 2 cents on the subject for whats its worth.....
I think we should be limited to skinning just the birds that the game produces....
Say a year down the road - they decide to do another p38 variant..or it could even be a fw190 or anything...
So, if HTC sets precedence by not allowing a "varaible" skin - say a fw190a4 skin on a 190a5...then later on if they do add that model - they don't have to sift through the skins to find out which varient skin belongs on which variant of bird....plus it opens up a floodgate if they let a variant skin go through. "But so and so did one that wasn't a such and such model...." You catch my drift?
Also with the new models - Its very easy to do other models of the planes..performance changes, minor artwork / loadout changes.
So if there's currently a fw190A5, A8, F8, D9...
and I want to do a skin for a d13, or fw190 a3 or 4....well, just because they were close to the 190d9 or a5...doesn't make sense.
Granted - we might never see a A3 , A4or D13 in here, but then again we might with the TOD development, especially if it is going to be historically based.
Like I said - just my 2cents.
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I like the simplicity of that argument, as it avoids misunderstandings and judgement calls on the part of HTC as to which variants to allow skins for, and the skinners will know for the most part which skins they can and can't do.
But, this solution is restrictive and inefficient, and here's why I think that: Take for example the P-51C. This aircraft is identical in virtually every way to the P-51B, except that it was made in a different factory and has a propeller from a different manufacturer. So there are no differences in the physical appearance or performance of the C compared to the B. But in order to allow some of the great 'C' skins into the game, HTC would have to duplicate the B's files and create a new default skin, increasing the game's download size.
One solution could be to change the text in the aircraft selection box for the 51B to say "P-51B/C", and allow both 'B' and 'C' skins on this model. It stays within the spirit of allowing skins only for models HTC has specifically designated are in the game, but allows the additional skins for the C without having to duplicate the B entirely.
Regarding the P-38, the same solution could be used for the P-38F and G, and possibly even the H if Pyro decides the performance differences were minimal. I understand the differences between the F and G were minor, but the H had higher horsepower engines (though they were restricted).
Waiting anxiously to see what Pyro says about the whole thing. There are many great 'H' skins on hold, and I'm not sure the performance differences in the H are significant enough that it wouldn't be modelled for a long time, if ever.
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My personal opinion is to allow the F,G, and H to be used as they are visually difficult/impossible to differentiate between them.
From what I understand this has already occured with some of the other models.
If HTC is going to only allow skins from designated aircraft, guaranteed people are going to ask for all models to be offered. Then again, this may be a vain attempt for me to encourage HTC to put in a P38F, H, and other more unusual models. :D
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so, if they allow models to be skinned that arent currently in play, but is later released, how is that affecting anything? just shift the skins over to the correct model. maybe im overlooking something...
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Originally posted by killnu
so, if they allow models to be skinned that arent currently in play, but is later released, how is that affecting anything? just shift the skins over to the correct model. maybe im overlooking something...
Have you've seen Skuzzy in action? - trust me - it would be an issue trying to sort skins 16 months down the road.... :)
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From talking to Skuzzy -
They will not allow skins on a different plane if they MAY release that model in the future.
Hence the Spit 8 skins on a Mk 9 (so I guess no Spit 8 for us :( ).
Bear in mind this was for the old models, we MAY get more options later with newer models.
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
Have you've seen Skuzzy in action? - trust me - it would be an issue trying to sort skins 16 months down the road.... :)
(gets out little red book....puts a mark next to Waffle...skins eh? we'll see about that). :)
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Maybe a simple way around that problem would be to include the subtype in the p38.txt file, e.g. "343FG/54FS (H) by Oboe"
Then when the P-38H makes it into the game, you just need to go through at most 16 P38.txt files, or look in the drop list to see which ones need to be moved.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
(gets out little red book....puts a mark next to Waffle...skins eh? we'll see about that). :)
Bah - I got hitech tied up in the Terrain editor Forum too....I'm sure i'm getting some more marks there.....what's another one gonna do? :)
You guys want to buy some 3d models? lmao - Ac3d and I are getting together like Oil and Water. Grouping as well as trying to figure out the naming conventions for object / lods, anything to outside of creating/texturing is kicking my arse...lol
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any word on this yet?:confused:
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Ok, here is the deal.
It is a compromise, as such, it is going to be a bit difficult to nail down in words.
If a skin was available during the service life of the G, J, and L, but was not available on those planes, we will consider it.
There is more.
If it is clear, the skin does not belong on the plane due to the original model being so different, then we will reject it.
Does that nail it down for you?
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Time for Dan to put his extensive,check, recheck, double check, fingers crossed, research hat on!
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yea it does, basically, if there is a question about a skin, due to different sources having conflicting models, then...if it was available during one of the G,J or L models lifetime, then it will be accepted. think i got it. thank you skuzzy :aok
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Actually I'm a little fuzzy on this, and maybe an example would help.
Take "23 Ski Doo", a P-38H. I don't know if this skin was available on a G, J or L. I only have a profile of it on an H.
Certainly though, this H model was being flown alongside Gs.
Does it qualify?
Also, does this compromise extend to other aircraft, or is it only the P-38 series?
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If it was flying alongside G's, then it falls into the 'service life' category. So yes, it probably would pass.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ok, here is the deal.
It is a compromise, as such, it is going to be a bit difficult to nail down in words.
If a skin was available during the service life of the G, J, and L, but was not available on those planes, we will consider it.
There is more.
If it is clear, the skin does not belong on the plane due to the original model being so different, then we will reject it.
Does that nail it down for you?
Thanks Skuzzy. What it means as I understand it, is that in Groups that were flying the F,G, H together, the skins would be OK correct?
AKA McGuire's first Pudgy, or Danny Roberts "197" from the 475th would work. Porky II from the 80th, etc.
Dan/Slack
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Guppy, can you give us an estimate in date ranges for the service life of the 38F, G, H, J, and L?
Many profiles are listed with a month/year, and that info may help skinners decide if their skin qualifies...
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Correct Dan, although watch the early F's. I think those would fall out of the box.
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Originally posted by oboe
Guppy, can you give us an estimate in date ranges for the service life of the 38F, G, H, J, and L?
Many profiles are listed with a month/year, and that info may help skinners decide if their skin qualifies...
It depends on where they were flying.
The MTO P38 groups are a great example of this. They were flying F models like "Sad Sack" that I posted today into May of 44 and G's into June alongside the J models. New pilots who had trained on newer model 38s were surprised to see G's still being flown in combat when they arrived in the MTO.
Sad Sack was an F-15 and flew combat from December 42-April 44 amassing 183 combat missions and 16 kills with numerous pilots and only came out of combat after an accident.
Personally I don't think there is an issue with the Js and Ls. If it has a landing light on the leading edge consider it the L time frame from roughly September 44 til the end.
If it has large intakes but no wing leading edge landing light, it's an early J from Early 1944 until the end of the war in Europe, May 45.
In the Pacific They were getting the Js in February 44. They didn't get Ls until September 44.
The 475th for example got their first L-1s in when the 431st Squadron got theirs on September 29th. The 433rd from the same group didn't get their Ls until November and kept flying the J-20s until then.
As mentioned before the 80th FS in the Pacific was operating Fs Gs and Hs together. On "Bloody Tuesday" in November of 43 over Rabaul you can find specific F, G and H being flown by the 80th in that fight, so you are basically taking the F,G, H models right up until the Js.
Hows that for long winded :)
Dan/Slack