Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DoctorYO on February 07, 2005, 10:05:20 AM
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having reviewed the stats of various tours since it was developed the Ki84 has seen limited use in the main compared to other aircraft..
IMO its a excellent aircraft with more than enough attributes to be successful in the main.. (a heavy zeke that does 330 mph in cruise..)
Was wondering why its lack of use......
anyone?
DoctorYo
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Barely faster than the Spit V and not as manuverable without as much firepower.
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When it is modelled to represent it's actual performance it will see use.
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INvest in the future
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Maybe it`s the itsie bitsie, teenie weenie, chigger size gauges.
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Even though the Frank is a very good aircraft, it is by no means an EZ mode plane. To get the most out of it takes a lot of work on the trim and knowing what it will and will not do. Most players probably gave up on it as they found it wasn't the easy wonder ride they thought it would be. I love the Frank, one of my favorite planes to go dweebing around in.
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Originally posted by Stang
Even though the Frank is a very good aircraft, it is by no means an EZ mode plane. To get the most out of it takes a lot of work on the trim and knowing what it will and will not do. Most players probably gave up on it as they found it wasn't the easy wonder ride they thought it would be. I love the Frank, one of my favorite planes to go dweebing around in.
^^....What he said, plus: maybe it's just my vid card, but the cockpit is too dark for me, most times. That, coupled witht eh size of the gauges, makes it unfun to fly. But as far as how it handles, I love it. Once I learned a little throttle management, it's a great plane in a turn 'n' burn fight. Early on I had trouble because I was always going much faster than I realized. Seems like in most other planes I get a sense of speed once they get up around 300+, but the Frank just seems to take it in stride.
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i think the ki is a beauty. hangs great and is a very good low speed fighter.
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It has huge rudder authority and climb..
I tried it on h2h and it packs a punch, too. Extremely easy kills.
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I've often wondered the same. The Ki-84-Ia is basically THE ideal field defense plane.
- The plane has the one of the shortest take off distance required among all planes
- Can start maneuvering right after its wheels are retracted, thanks to the massively efficient flaps
- Has very fast rate of acceleration and great climb
- Not great, but still has 300 rounds of cannon with 150rpg each wing
- Much faster than the Spit5 or Spit9 at deck
- Has great fuel load and range, so it could fly for a very long time even at 50% fuel
- Outturns everything that turns worse than a N1K2
- Good maneuverability and stability at all speed ranges except over 400mph
- Superior in the vertical, the only plane which can hang long enough to match a P-38
- Superior in flap efficiency, also the only plane which can play the P-38 at its own game and still win
The only reason I can think of why people don't fly it more often, is that they've expected so much of a superplane out of it that the initial disappointment still discourages people from choosing it.
They have the wrong opinion that the Ki-84 is a castrated plane, which it is not. Having read the many posts and discussions about the Ki-84 when it was released, at least my personal conclusion is that the Ki-84 in AH2 is modelled reasonably.
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Why dont we have ki-84-I-b 20mm*4?
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Originally posted by Mitsu
Why dont we have ki-84-I-b 20mm*4?
The Synchros are on back-order :p
-Sik
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Originally posted by storch
When it is modelled to represent it's actual performance it will see use.
Storch, it has been modelled as reasonably as one can expect from a sim. Maybe even more. They made every effort to get it right.
I agree with some of your complaints, especially regarding the zero and the German cannon. I have to disagree with you on this one though, they did a heck of a job on the Ki-84.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
having reviewed the stats of various tours since it was developed the Ki84 has seen limited use in the main compared to other aircraft..
IMO its a excellent aircraft with more than enough attributes to be successful in the main.. (a heavy zeke that does 330 mph in cruise..)
Was wondering why its lack of use......
anyone?
DoctorYo
I have simply been trying to improve my performance in other planes the last two tours. Limiting myself to 1 or 2 planes was seriously hampering me and I decided to push myself to get back into shape in more planes.
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Ki-841b? How about the "c" model. Basically a faster version of the Niki with the same guns.
:D
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Very simple:
The Spitfire V turns better, has much better guns, and has much better medium to high speed handling plus it really isnt all that much slower.
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Originally posted by 2stony
Ki-841b? How about the "c" model. Basically a faster version of the Niki with the same guns.
I'd Much rather have the 4x Ho-5 cannons over the 4x Tpye 99II cannons.
-Sik
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I have simply been trying to improve my performance in other planes the last two tours. Limiting myself to 1 or 2 planes was seriously hampering me and I decided to push myself to get back into shape in more planes.
Here's a tip... stay outa the Wildcat in the CT. :D
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Originally posted by VWE
Here's a tip... stay outa the Wildcat in the CT. :D
Heh. Wildcat is The Bomb.
- oldman
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Originally posted by storch
When it is modelled to represent it's actual performance it will see use.
Not a flame...
How is it supposed to fly? More like a 190? I have a heck of a time with this plane coming apart in a slight dive.
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Ki84 and new P38s,-- i don't like the gauges, hard to read them
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Apart from the upside-down altimeter it rocks.
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No mass production in the -1c. prototypes only.
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I appreciate everyones input on this... was curious to others thoughts on this aircraft..
I think the Ki 84 is a superior aircraft:
excellent fuel duration.......
excellent acceleration
cannon package though some dont like it, seems far superior to most (i fly the 20mm 109 so anything 2 cannon is good...) considering the gunsight and very good overall view..
Dives well when you keep in her parameters. (hint I dont excede 450 mph IAS {indicated air speed} when diving or otherwise even though she'll do about 460+ before breakup...{limited testing she has never broke under 450 yet.....})
wep system is very powerful when used properly... (considering it's turn and burn capability you should decel by not using wep/throttle chop to get better turn radii and to race till flap usage, then wep out back up to speed and repeat as necessary to run them down...)
Overall im 11-0 K/D in it.. feels very strong to me.. at least spit 9 level or better when you understand it's quirks....
We'll just keep this thread top secret... (so the lemmings don't drone the Ki 84 to its death)
Again thanks for the replies.
DoctorYo
PS there are alternatives to the La7 (noobs) that fare well against it... IMO the Ki 84 does it well........
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I have not flown it much but I found it very effective. It accelarates so quicky that it scissors alot different then other aircraft.
I personaly think the interior hurts this plane. very hard to read dials and kind of ugly interior frames make me want to fly it less. The 38 seems way better implemented.
It is a very interesting plane thought. Lots of range, enough speed, more than enough climb and turn. Ok views..good plane I think.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Not a flame...
How is it supposed to fly? More like a 190? I have a heck of a time with this plane coming apart in a slight dive.
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.
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I've been flying it a lot. I've been pretty successful. It's my #1 choice now for pure fighter, and attacker unless I'm going into a one vs many attack at a far off enemy base. In that case it's too slow to survive the inevitibale horde of LA-7s and 109G10s that will give chase.
In answer to your question I think there are two reasons:
Gauges
Flaps
1) As others have said, the gauges are awful. I have started threads on this subject before. I'll say it again, the gauges are nearly unreadable for me. Charcoal grey backgrounds with slightly whiter needles, fuzzy, miniscule fonts, upside down altimeter....it goes on and on. It has been suggested that HTC allow or create a custom skin for the cockpit guages, that way the realism crowd can have their gauges and the rest of us can see them!
My less than perfect solution: I don't look at the gauges hardly ever anymore. I keep the E6B always out on my clipboard and have the clipboard toggled to a button on my JS. The only two things I really care about are Speed and Fuel, both of which are on the E6B. The Altimeter is still a problem though.
2) The KI-84 is a great plane above 225 and below 150. Between 150 and 225 you are in the soon to be dead zone. The reason is all the US planes have those great flaps that give very good turn ability from 250 down. And the Spit doesn't need flaps to turn great at 175. However at 175 the KI-84 turns like a dog. It trys to snap roll, it's unstable. At 150 the flaps come out and now you're cooking with gas! I'll stall fight with anything once I get those darn flaps to go out.
However if you pick up a bit of speed....Autoretract on flaps! Instability hits and you have to be careful to not snap roll. OIO can relate to this complaint......
My solution. Fight it as an E fighter most of the time. But I don't back away from any 1v1 fight if they want to make it a stall fight. I just know that when the speed gets to 220 or so, I HAVE to slow the fight to 140 asap! My typical solution is to go nose high spiral climb to scrub off speed. At 150 mph I pop flaps and the fight is mine. I don't think I've lost a 1v1 fight yet once it's gotten down to co-E, flaps out, time. A lot of planes have dove away when they realize what's happening though.
I had some great fights with Pellik last week in his P-38. The Ki-84 vs P-38 fight is a classic, both in terms of flight models and in terms of the real life combats from WWII. They were some of the best fights I've had in the last year.
Now a question for the KI-84 real history folks:
Was the real KI-84 unable to deploy flaps above 150? When you look at them, the first notch looks like high speed fowler flaps on a P-51, or at least a P-38. You'd think the first notch could deploy just like a P-38 at moderate speeds. If they could, then the KI-84 would be one great ride!
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Originally posted by storch
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.
Agreed. But I think that is a problem with the modelling on the US planes, not the Ki-84. I'm reserving judgement until they remodel the older planeset and tweak them. I'm really hoping for some less uber P-51s and P-47s.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Not a flame...
How is it supposed to fly? More like a 190? I have a heck of a time with this plane coming apart in a slight dive.
Keep the plane below 450 and dont pull more than 3G's. There is enough drag there that just chopping the throttle off is enough to keep your speed down in a dive.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Very simple:
The Spitfire V turns better, has much better guns, and has much better medium to high speed handling plus it really isnt all that much slower.
I have to disagree. You get somebody who understands the way the flaps work in the Frank, and can work the throttle to get it slow enough for flap deployment, the SpitV will get munched in a heartbeat. Now I admit, that little area from about 175 down to 150 to get the flaps out requires some delicate handling or you'll stall it out. But all it takes is a little practice. As for the guns issue, I have not done any real tests on lethality of one vs the other, so I cant say. I can say that the Ki-84's guns are lethal enough, I've shredded more than one formation of B-24's in one, and it has the tools to do the job. Better or not than a SpitV I cant say.
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I like the Ki-84 in AH a lot, but I really, really suck in it. I cannot figure out why I am so much more successful in the big assed, lumbering Mossie than the nimble Ki-84. It isn't only the guns or firepower either. I generate a lot more firing opportunities in the Mossie than I do in the Ki-84. Well, I do generate some semblence of gun solutions in the Ki-84, but they tend to be very brief crossing shots. I do miss a lot more, but that is to be expected going from centerline mounted Hispanos to wing mounted Ho-5s.
Obviously I need more practice, but the other game I've been playing of late takes gobs of my free time.
Originally posted by MOSQ
IWas the real KI-84 unable to deploy flaps above 150? When you look at them, the first notch looks like high speed fowler flaps on a P-51, or at least a P-38. You'd think the first notch could deploy just like a P-38 at moderate speeds. If they could, then the KI-84 would be one great ride!
I'm pretty sure the answer to this is "yes", but there is no documentation and AH is built on documentation. The P-38 drivers can tell you all about that.
The first stage of the flaps on the Ki-84 are a combat setting and I cannot imagine that they had a combat setting limited to 150mph.
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Originally posted by storch
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.
:lol :lol :lol :aok
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I've been checking websites about the KI-84. About half say it has Fowler flaps with combat settings, the other half call them butterfly flaps.
If it really does have Fowler Flaps, we're missing out on a great deal of it's flight performance.
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If I understand correctly, "Fowler flaps" are just flaps that slide out instead of just down.. if you look at the Ki-84's flaps when you drop them they do exactly that.
And it is honestly quite simple.. 99% of the arena min/maxes, even if it is only on an unconscious level.
The fact that the Ki-84 is faster than a Spit 5 means nothing. The Ki-84 goes in the "slow, turny plane" category.. top speed isn't an issue. It is a given that unless you are in an El gay, Pee- fifty run, or the D-9 or G-10, you will be run down and horded eventually, unless you stick to your horde. Even then, you have to be in an El gay or fly fairly conservatively to avoid that.
So, taking it as a given that any flight will end up as an X on 1, what criteria do we look at in a plane?
As far as I can tell, there are really only 3- Firepower, Manueverability, and Acceleration.
Firepower is fairly self- evident. Keep in mind that your average MA'er can hit something only if it is flying straight at him, straight away from him, or moving very very very slowly. So you need some serious firepower to make sure that any rounds you land actually do some damage. The minimum criteria seems to be at least 2 Hispanos, or 4 of any other 20mm cannon (which makes sense, seeing as 4 regular 20mm cannon ~= 2 Hispanos). The Ki-84 comes up lacking in this category. 2 12.7mm and 2 20mm Ho-5 isn't exactly breathtaking firepower. If we get a model with 4 20mm, or ideally (for the MA) 2 30mm and 2 20mm (even if there were only 3 made) the plane would see more significant use.
Manuverability- This is perhaps the most important category, although I think for most people it ranks about even with firepower. Overall, the Ki-84s manueverability is outstanding. It will fly and fight at speeds under 100 mph, something that only a couple other planes can do. Unfortunately (for the Ki), one of those planes is armed with 2 Hispanos. The Spit V is fractionally more manueverable than the Ki-84, which is in turn more manueverable than the Spit IX or the Niki, albeit with half the firepower.
Acceleration - This is kind of a red-headed step child, but I think it plays an important role nonetheless. Not nearly as important as firepower or manueverability, but rather a sort of tiebreaker.
For example, in choosing between the Hurri-2C and the Spit V.. which do you go with? 4 Hispanos is pretty much overkill, since 2 will do the job with a quick snapshot that lands. Both planes will out-turn pretty much the rest of the planeset.. more significantly the Spit V can give a good account of itself in a brief turnfight against the Hurricane. So I think for most people it comes down to acceleration.. the Spit V can keep up with anything up to around 300 mph or so, faster in a dive. The Hurricane is left chugging exhaust. So in choosing between adequate firepower / overkill firepower with manueverability roughly equal, it makes sense to pick the plane that can keep up with the runners long enough to land a lucky tail hit for the kill.
So my Kweassa-esque post comes to an end.. but the short version is the vast majority in the MA won't fly the Ki-84 because it comes up short against the Spit V.. minimize your disadvantages/ maximize your advantages.. Not just for MMORPGs anymore.
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I'm still not clear why the Spit V had it's boost raised from +12lbs to +16lbs going from AH1 to AH2.
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Originally posted by storch
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.
Faster than the pony at what altitudes? Out turn the pony at what speeds? Not that I'm a pony fan. It just helps to define exactly the parameters you speak of.
And as far as it goes, I see at least one Ki-84 on nearly every hop. Not nearly so many as Spits, Nikkis, La7s, hurris, ponies and such, but I see them all the time. I do think some were expecting an easy mode uber ride, and when they found it took skill and practice, they looked elsewhere. In fact, I think a lot of people were expecting it to maneuver like a Zero, run like an La7, and hit like an A-10 Warthog. When they found they'd have to practice to master it, and work when they flew it, they simply walked away.
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Fowlers slide out, and fold down, depending on the setting. They give greater area to the wing without adding excess drag. IF you don't deploy them all the way. A notch or two increases wing area more than drag. More than that and it increases drag but not as fast as "standard" flaps.
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It seems to me that some of you people wanted a plane that basicly would fight for you... There' isn't such a plane. The Ki84 being faster than the Pony D is nothing more than some fairy tale pipe dream. Can it out turn it? At slow speeds with equal pilots? Sure. High speed or 250mph+? No way.
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I'm not looking for a miracle plane, I just want it modelled correctly. I have no pet allegiance to this plane, I could have cared less if it was brought to AHII at all.
It seems odd that the other planes with Fowler Flaps and one notch combat settings can deploy at moderate to high speeds, but the KI-84 is limited to 150 mph.
In War Birds and Air Warrior, it was modelled with high speed combat flaps.
It would be great if Pyro would chime in here and tell us what his research found when he was desigining the FM for this plane.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
It would be great if Pyro would chime in here and tell us what his research found when he was desigining the FM for this plane.
IIRC, the guy who did research in Japan for them found that the pilot's manual limited the first notch to 250kph, or something like that.
What I'm not convinced of is that it was refering to the combat setting and not the first notch intended for landing.
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Originally posted by Karnak
IIRC, the guy who did research in Japan for them found that the pilot's manual limited the first notch to 250kph, or something like that.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1452047#post1452047
Busa. Here's the thread where he went into some detail about his research. This might help Storch understand the modeling. Note that Busa's Japanese is much better than mine.
-Sik
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I fell in love with the 84, despite the atrocious forward framing. They make crossing shots difficult. The acceleration is what I love best, coupled with the superb WEP recharge. It's amazing how many people get suckered by the 84. The low-speed maneuverability means when you botch a rope and see he's gonna have a shot, you can do some insane full-flaps turning shot denial until your WEP climb puts you solidly above him and he feels stupid.
The cannons do take a little getting used to, though. Only take the shots you know you'll hit and you'll do fine.
Course, the la7/spit combo following you all the way home spells trouble.
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How fast is the Spit5 otd now anyway? The last time I checked the OTD speeds(whels's testings):
OTD Speeds with WEP engaged:
Tempest Mk.V: 386
La-7: 380
F4U-4: 378
Fw190D-9: 375
Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
P-51D: 367
Bf109G-10: 366
Ta-152 361
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1: 358
P-51B: 358
F4U-1D: 357
F4U-1C: 356
La-5: 356
YaK-9U: 355
Fw190A-8: 349
Fw190F-8: 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
Ki-84-Ia: 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Bf109G-2 340
.....
Spitfire Mk.IX: 319
.....
Seafire Mk.II: 302
Spitfire Mk.V: 302
The only fighters that are slower than the Spit5/Seafire2 with +12 boost is the FM2, Spit1, Zeros, P-40s, and Hurricanes.
Even if the Ki-84 WEP lasts so short the cool down is fast and the acceleration is very powerful. I've caught upto the F4U-1D in the list, who were trying to run away from the Ki-84 in a pure level chase. To be really safe from the Ki-84 you've got to be at least as fast as the P-51B.
When the WEP runs out, you can risk a 15 second cooldown and re-engage it, and this will keep WEP running for more than another 30 seconds before it gasps out again. The speeds will drop down to 330~335 range and then it will accelerate again to over 340mph. Thus, after the initial 'charge' of the WEP runs out the average speed you can expect out of it still is about at 340mph.
Unless the extra +4 boost increased the Spit5 speed by at least 30mph, the Spit5 still has no hope of catching a Ki-84-Ia whatsoever, unless it finds a Ki low and slow. I consider +/- 10mph to be the maximum margin of difference in speed a certain plane can be considered 'close enough in speed' to be caught up in pure level/slight dive chases.
The margin of speed difference between the Spits 5 and 9 drops down with alt, but you'd be have to over 15k to really notice that "gee, at this alt the Spit ain't too slow compared to the Ki-84.." Anything lower than that and the Ki-84 is still vastly faster than both the Spit9 and the Spit5.
The Ki-84 is not a 'slow' plane whatsoever. If we assume a 15~20mph increase in the Spit5 speed due to the +16 boost still the Ki-84 is at least 20mph faster. It's the best turning plane in the entire plane set that is capable of doing over 340mph OTD, or in other words, the fastest plane that can literally "turn like a Spit".
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i didn't know Ki-84 has the same deck speed to P-47/P-37s with engaged WEP.
btw Kweassa, I hope you will work for another Ki-84 skin. Could you accept my request?
I'm currently loving 47th Sentai skin. Great work!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
OTD Speeds with WEP engaged:
Tempest Mk.V: 386
La-7: 380
F4U-4: 378
Fw190D-9: 375
Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
P-51D: 367
Bf109G-10: 366
Ta-152 361
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1: 358
P-51B: 358
F4U-1D: 357
F4U-1C: 356
La-5: 356
YaK-9U: 355
Fw190A-8: 349
Fw190F-8: 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
Ki-84-Ia: 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Bf109G-2 340
.....
Spitfire Mk.IX: 319
.....
Seafire Mk.II: 302
Sptfire Mk.II: 302
where did the Mossie fit in on this chart?
Thanks.
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Here's the whole list, m8. The SeaF2, Spit5 speeds are for +12 boost as seen in AH1.
MILITARY POWER
TEMPEST 372
LA-7 358
F4U-4 358
TYPHOON 355
YAK9-U 355
P-51D 354
F4U-1 350
P-51B 347
190D-9 346
F4U-1D 343
F4U-1C 342
109G-10 337
LA-5 336
P-38L 333
P-47D-11 333
SPIT-14 332
TA-152 332
P-47D-25 329
P-47D-30 329
190A-8 327
YAK9-T 327
190F-8 326
190A-5 326
MOSQ 325
Ki-84-Ia 323
C205 321
109G-2 320
F6F-5 320
109G-6 317
N1K2 313
109F-4 310
SPIT IX 310
C202 307
KI-61 305
110-G2 305
SEAFIRE 293
SPIT V 293
110-4b 290
FM2 290
A6M5 288
F4F 278
P40B 275
A6M2 275
P40E 276
HURR IIC 262
HURR IID 253
HURR I 253
WAR EMERGENCY POWER
TEMPEST 386
LA-7 380
F4U-4 378
190D-9 375
TYPHOON 370
P-51D 367
109G-10 366
TA-152 361
SPIT-14 358
F4U-1 358
P-51B 358
F4U-1D 357
F4U-1C 356
LA-5 356
YAK9-U 355
190A-8 349
190F-8 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
Ki-84-Ia 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
109G-2 340
190A-5 339
MOSQ 338
YAK9-T 336
109G-6 336
109F-4 332
C205 331
F6F-5 330
N1K2 324
SPIT IX 319
110-G2 316
C202 315
KI-61 313
SEAFIRE 302
SPIT V 302
110-4B 300
FM2 297
P40E 297
109E-4 292
SPIT I 291
A6M5 288
F4F 275 no wep
A6M2 275 NO WEP
P40B 275
HURR IIC 273
HURR IID 265
HURR I 261
(didn't see any P-38G/J speed testings so far, so those two planes I didn't add to whels's list)
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IIRC, someone tested out the Spit V and it is basically the same speed as the Spit IX up to 10k I want to say. After that it starts falling off.
Kweassa... any plane that doesn't go 360+ on the deck fits into my "slow" category.
And since I'm using the same criteria the MA uses... you've got ~5 choices for "fast" aircraft (Tiffie, D-9, G-10, P-51, El gay), and the rest are "slow" aircraft.
The "slow" aircraft are divided into "slow, but manueverable" aircraft, and "useless" aircraft. The Spits and Niki go into the first category, everything else goes into the second.
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Heh I got 10:1 k/d on several of those 'useless' aircraft you mentioned there.
P47-D30 and La5 are a couple of fine examples.
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Kweassa,
Things have changed slightly going to AH2.
The boost to the Spit V/Seafire II raised it's WEP speed to 317mph on the deck.
The Mosquito dropped slightly to 336mph at WEP on the deck.
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Originally posted by storch
When it is modelled to represent it's actual performance it will see use.
And what is that actual performance? Please share your wisdom on the subject.
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I'm just a occasional player, but to me the Ki-84 feels mushy and I've real trouble adjusting to the cannon. Spent too much ammo on a P-51 200yards in front of me, flipflopping like mad (he, not me).
Did not fly it enough to get much feel for stallfighting, which I don't like anyway. For some reason it seems it needs quite a lot more stick input than the P-51B.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Heh I got 10:1 k/d on several of those 'useless' aircraft you mentioned there.
P47-D30 and La5 are a couple of fine examples.
That is fantastic, great for you.
Unfortunately, I'm looking not at an individual level, but at the usage as a whole.
The La5 is a wonderful fighter, it (like the El gay) has very few weaknesses. But there is no reason to fly it when the El gay literally does everything better, and has an extra cannon to boot.
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I fly the KI61 a lot or atlist used to. I tried the KI84 and found that it does everything better. You just have to get used to it cause it is dif than the rest of the planes. The only problem I see with KIs and the rest of the useless planes is that they don;t have Hispanos. When you get 200 or 400 behind someone and they start the flip flopping you can easylly waste all your ammo and not get a kill. With the Hispanos, if you land two pings it could be enough to disable the bad guy.
Last nigtht I was trying to clear a squadie from an LA7 on his tail. I was 400 behind it in a KI61. The guy just ignored me and continued his persute of the squadie. After using all my ammo, I got his fuel and he finally dove down and went home. Had those been Hispanos he would have been dead after the first few pings.
(PS. I was getting hits everytime I pulled the triger and only used the cannons).
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Originally posted by dedalos
Last nigtht I was trying to clear a squadie from an LA7 on his tail. I was 400 behind it in a KI61. The guy just ignored me and continued his persute of the squadie. After using all my ammo, I got his fuel and he finally dove down and went home. Had those been Hispanos he would have been dead after the first few pings.
(PS. I was getting hits everytime I pulled the triger and only used the cannons).
The Hispano round is almost twice as powerful as the Ho-5 round, when it comes to destructive power. How many hits woudl you say you landed on the La7, and at what range?
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
The Hispano round is almost twice as powerful as the Ho-5 round, when it comes to destructive power. How many hits woudl you say you landed on the La7, and at what range?
-Sik
I'd say atlist 8 from 400 to 200 but in different places. Thats where the diff is. The Hispano would have removed pieces making the LA easyer to kill.
Flight before that I emptied everything on a spit. I had to finish him off with the BBs. One variable I didnot mention is that my aim sucks but If I can stay alive in Tiff for example, I will come back with 6 kills. If I stay alive in a KI, 3 would be the max.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Faster than the pony at what altitudes? Out turn the pony at what speeds? Not that I'm a pony fan. It just helps to define exactly the parameters you speak of.
And as far as it goes, I see at least one Ki-84 on nearly every hop. Not nearly so many as Spits, Nikkis, La7s, hurris, ponies and such, but I see them all the time. I do think some were expecting an easy mode uber ride, and when they found it took skill and practice, they looked elsewhere. In fact, I think a lot of people were expecting it to maneuver like a Zero, run like an La7, and hit like an A-10 Warthog. When they found they'd have to practice to master it, and work when they flew it, they simply walked away.
IIRC, and I admit my memory on the specifics is foggy right now and I have nothing to back it up, the Ki-84 should outrun the P-51D up to around 12-14k before the Pony evens the speeds and starts overtaking it. I remember the Ki-84 as being pretty much the fastest thing in the air OTD thru mid-alt, where it would begin to drop off.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I'd say atlist 8 from 400 to 200 but in different places. Thats where the diff is. The Hispano would have removed pieces making the LA easyer to kill.
Flight before that I emptied everything on a spit. I had to finish him off with the BBs. One variable I didnot mention is that my aim sucks but If I can stay alive in Tiff for example, I will come back with 6 kills. If I stay alive in a KI, 3 would be the max.
If you're landing hits with the Ho-5 at 400 yards, I wouldn't say your aim sucks :)
The best asset of that gun is that it has the fastest Rate of fire of all the 20mm cannons in game. If can be pretty brutal with a long burst up close, but I can't hit anything with it much past 200. Of course, MY really does suck :)
Also, don't forget that the Tiff has almost twice the Cannon ammo of the Ki.
-Sik
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Don't count on the Hispano to get the job done against the La-7. I landed 10 hits (I counted them) from a Tiffie on an La-7 and got absolutely nothing for it, not even a fuel leak or a lost control surface.
La-7s are flying tanks, though I don't know why.
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If the Ki84 is not used "much" in AH then AH is in worse shape than I thought. Somethin just aint right with that boy.
Are there still developers showing up at the office?
:aok
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Just one of the vagaries of modelling I suspect.. the La7 is one of the toughest planes in the game.
I'd rank it right behind the F4F, personally.
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I suspect that the Ki-84 would see quite a bit more use if they increased its ENY value substantially. Right now, it has an ENY of 15 (the same as a Seafire), so when the ENY limiter kicks in and kills the last of the Hispano-armed Spits, it also kills the Ki-84.
I suspect that increasing its ENY to 20 or 25 would produce a lot of Ki-84 flying when one side faces ENY penalties. In addition, the closeness of the performance between the Spit V and the Ki-84 (one a better turner, the other faster; both well-rounded) might push more players toward the Ki-84 if they desire more perk points.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Is the ENY limiter still on?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Is the ENY limiter still on?
Yep.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Levi's SpitV ENY value is 0.5...
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First, I've been flying the ki-84 almost exclusively since it came out and I like it. However...
It turns like crap until you get very very slow and can deploy flaps. That means that most players will never "get the hang of" flying it. It isn't fast enough, a good enough climber, or hard hitting enough to excel as a BnZ platform, it's not as damage resistant as comparable US or german aircraft either. It's poor pitch response at higher speeds also means it must be constantly trimmed to get maximum performance out of it. With combat trim or "easy mode" turned on, it's very hard to get the plane slow enough and trimmed properly to turn well.
But if you learn how to fly it, it's a good all-around dogfighter and a talented player can even beat a well flown spit unless the fight degenerates into a simple flat turn rate contest on the deck. It also has a decent roll rate across the entire speed range which helps against USN rides.
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hmmmm how come Warbird's Ki-84 is faster THAN any US irons...?
PS Ki-84 SHOULD be faster than P-51D at lo alts...
from WB3
Vmax (IAS) @ 5000’ @ WEP
By Rank Order
By Year
Rank Order – Current Version
Rank
Aircraft
3.05
1
262
461
2
190D9
358
3
Ki84
354
4
J2M2
353
5
109K
353
6
Yak 3
349
7
P47D
349
8
J2M3
346
9
F4u1a
344
10
F4u1D
344
11
Corsair II
344
12
Corsair IV
344
13
F4u4
344
14
P51D
342
15
Spit 14
342
16
P51B
341
17
Fw190A4
339
18
P38J
329
19
P38L
329
20
190A8
326
21
109G6
323
22
C205
322
23
F4u1
321
24
Corsair I
321
25
P47C
321
26
Yak 9
320
27
Ki44-IIb
317
28
P39Q
315
29
P38F
313
30
Mossie NFII
313
31
P400
312
32
Mossie VI
312
33
P39D
308
34
Spit 9
308
35
Ki61-1b
308
36
F6F5
308
37
Ki61-Ic
308
38
C202
306
39
109F4
303
40
109G6R6
303
41
A6M3
295
42
A6M5a
295
43
SPIT 5
294
44
109F1
292
45
Seafire 2
291
46
110G2
290
47
Ki43
288
48
P40E
288
49
P40B
287
50
Spitfire 1
285
51
109E4
284
52
FM2
284
53
A36
279
54
A6M2
271
55
Hurri2c
269
56
F4F3
267
57
F4F4
263
58
Hurricane 1
262
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I don't like to see Ki-84 with US test profile.
Though the Ki-84-I-Otsu may have greater speeds by HA-45-21 engine...
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Once again........................ ...............
It`s the little , teen niny , chigger sized
FUGGIN GauGES
just like the new 38s .
Am I gettin through here?
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I guess to sum it up:
1) It's the little , teen niny , chigger sized, FUGGIN GauGES, just like the new 38s.
2) Fowler Flaps that don't come out till 150.
3) Instability between 151 and 200.
4) The forward view is obscured by extra thick canopy frame.
5) The cannons are weak and you run out of shells real fast.
6) For some folks the speed is not as fast as it "ought" to be.
7) It's not as damage resistant as US or german aircraft.
8) The ENY value is too low, should be a 20 to 25, not 15.
Any that I missed?
[Edit}: Its cursed with pilot wounds and oil leaks.
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In regards the 20mm being weak, I saw this at Tony Williams site:
"Finally, the Army adopted the Ho-5, a derivative of the Browning .50 that probably was the best Japanese fighter gun of the war. The Ho-5 was lighter, had a high rate of fire, and it was belt-fed instead of drum-fed.
But near the end of the war the Japanese had a shortage of high-strength alloys, and to compensate for the reduced strength of the guns the Army reduced the pressures. Hence the muzzle velocity of the Ho-5 dropped from 820 m/s to 700 - 730 m/s."
The question being: Does this mean early KI-84s and KI-61s had the benefit of higher velocity cannons? At what point did the velocity drop?
I'd be willing to bet the AHII Ho-5s are at the 700m/s velocity. Perhaps if they were 820 lot of the complaints would go away about their poor aiming.
Maybe Tony will see this thread and enlighten us.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html)
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I find it a very hard plane to fly plus its cursed.
Its cursed with pilot wounds and oil leaks.
I dont like to fly cursed planes.. ;)
Tex
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The Ki84 is my favorite fighter. I love its climb rate and the way it handles. Its a very good plane.
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Yepp amazing how much focus is put on TURNING and SPEED and how little is put on CLIMB.
The most amazing is that you hear vets say turns almost as a spit and just faster and that aint enough without mentioning climb.... hmmm...
Tex
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I find it a very hard plane to fly plus its cursed.
Well you might be right... My streak ended due to b17 tail section going straight up some 50-100 feet to instakill me after i chopped it off..
well 15 / 1 K/D with the only death to plane parts..
not too shabby... but Ill have to research that cursed stuff becuase last night my plane was coated with bad mojo...
DoctorYo