Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Naudet on February 08, 2005, 05:14:57 AM
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After spending a couple of hours in the DA it became obvious to me that i loss most 1v1 engagements (co-E, cold HO merge)in the intial 2 turns/reversals because i either try to go for a guns solution in them or because a lead turn i try is not properly timed.
Although i am not quit easy to shoot down after this initial mistake, i clearly know that to improve my 1v1 abilities i need to get away from positioning myself right into a disadvantage after the merge.
So how can i get better in properly executing the merge and lead turns?
One thing i already know - thx to Redd - is to try to pass below my opponent on the merge so i can basicly reverse inside my opponents reversal.
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I usually do a stupid little barrel roll over their head on the merge to deny a HO shot. Works every time.
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http://www.netaces.org/ahmain/siteframe.html#title
Hammer said it better than I can.
Remember though that a lead turn is just one of many options. Use it when the conditions are right. When the conditions are not right, use something else.
Seperation is the key to a good lead turn, thats part of the reason for the dive under the nose.
The other is its much harder to hit someone below your nose than above your dash.
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I know that lead turning is just one option, but it is an important option.
If i remember right i somewhere read "That if a fighter pilot could only possess one ACM skill, this should be proper lead turning".
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Originally posted by Naudet
So how can i get better in properly executing the merge and lead turns?
Hiya Naudet
Personally I am a big believer in stall-fighting/TnB as the key foundation for E-fighting .
Lead turns are really the key to good stall-fighting (where energy conservation and management are less of an issue)
One thing that might really help is spend some time flying TnB as an exercise. Use a Spit or 109F and
The TA and DA are great places for fight practice . You get more good fights in 30 minutes than a week in the MA
The timing of lead turns will come quickly by doing lots of them in that environment. You can then apply those same techniques to the Dora those times when you need them in a 1-1.
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Naudet,
if you didn't read all of the write-ups on lead turns on netaces read this one from SB, and remember gaining seperation before the turn is critical, instead of basically diving try doing both diving for vertical seperation mixed with manuevering offset/to the side for horizontal seperation. Instead of using a true immelman for your lead turn use an oblique one......the dive will give you much needed extra speed, the offset flight throws you out of plane when you turn, and timing is everything.....
SB's LeadTurn Write-Up (http://www.netaces.org/genmerges/leadturn.html#title)
key thing when turning to gain angles is noticing that you are keeping the bogie in the center or forward of your direct up view, forward up view, forward view. If the bogie starts working his way to the back of straight up or back up, he is gaining angles you are losing and better try something different quick like. practice your flying against your opponent with out looking forward view much if at all unless you on dead 6, always have your view spot on on the bandit so you know what he is doing so you can react to it ( read counter move )
Good Luck!
edited: Redd posted you fly the Dora , keep in mind to stay fast and with in your planes turning envelope, learn and know the lowest speed before you become disadvantage against other plane types, if you hit that critcal speed while turning look for an exit to extend and then setup for another merge if the conditions are favourable!
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I have fought Redd in the DA and have lost. Redd is very good. Each time I have fought him he has dived below my nose. No offense Redd but I think this is a cheap tactic. In my experiences in WB and at the 97 Con. The merge was always taught to me as having to be wings level at the merge at co-alt. No plane should turn or move until wing tips have passed. Not only are you diving down but you are pulling up before the merge takes place. Since a no HO call was made there is no counter for the tactic other than dive down with you.
I am not saying I think the outcome of the fights would have been differant just saying that the tactic of diving below the target in a 1v1 DA fight is wrong in my book. AC should pass co-alt wingtip to wingtip in the same energy states heading in opposing directions.
GrmRpr
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Originally posted by grmrpr
just saying that the tactic of diving below the target in a 1v1 DA fight is wrong in my book. AC should pass co-alt wingtip to wingtip in the same energy states heading in opposing directions.
GrmRpr,
there really is no rules straight up in the DA unless agreed upon before the duel 1 vs 1.
with that said, for those on the dueling ladder here is something some never have done..you must be co alt at ICON range!!!!! get it, by the way the rules are written, at ICON range you can actually do anything you want GRAB ALT!, DIVE! turn away from the bogie....
most all(that are familar with the maneuver) in a 1 vs 1 in the DA will dive at each other trying their best to be the lowest....sometimes this is to funny, I have actually had people auger trying to get below me :D
but a cold 1st merge is nothing more than guns cold........the only way to have it like you have stated it is to make that a certian rule of engagement before you go at it......just saying
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I appreciate that. In no way am I implying anything negative toward Redd. He is a good guy and a great stick. I guess my past experiences just do not apply here.
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Originally posted by Naudet
I know that lead turning is just one option, but it is an important option.
At the most basic level (i.e., the only one I know well), the two biggest factors in a successful lead turn are separation and timing. (Lead turn, of course, can be in any plane, and usually is actually in the vertical.)
Separation isn't something that you can unilaterally control, because the other guy is doing something, too. Most people seem to think that you need quite a bit of separation for a good lead turn, but it seemsto me to be rare that you can actually do this.
Timing is the one thing you have complete control over. I've seen the good pilots differing, in marked degrees, on when to begin your turn. Some think you should start your turn when relatively far away, so that you complete the turn in close proximity to the target. Others think you should delay your turn until you have nearly (or actually) passed the target, in order to get an opportunity to shoot him/her during the post-merge turn or climb. I used to be in the first group, but I think I've had better success with the second.
The point is that there really isn't any substitute for just getting out there and doing it. Timing, in particular, will be different when flying in, or against, different planes, and you won't know how until you've done it.
- oldman
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Gonna add the third piece of a successful lead turn, Oldman. :)
You also need energy.
Separation gives you the turning room (angles) to get around to his 6.
Lead turn begins the turn before you ever get to him.
Speed (for energy retention) provides the power to come around to his 6 and maintain time on target.
Danger - if you lead to soon he gets a belly shot.
Defense - jam him. Close to a cockpit to cockpit pass without allowing a HO shot. This takes away the angles.
Ren
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In thinking about it then guns should be allowable at any time. In my humble opinion it is not a ho if you are shooting down into the ac that is trying to dive... At that point it is not a nose to nose pass.
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LOL, it's interesting to note that in World WarII very few fighters pointed their nose directly at another fighter's nose and began firing. Life was a bit more precious back then. And....this is a game.
Since it's a game you're free to take any shot you want! Enjoy yourself! You might find that most AH veterans can easily sidestep your shot and get on your 6.
Perhaps learning to turn the tables and get on his 6 might be more enjoyable in game play. The accomplishment of beating the other dude in a 1v1 fight can also be fun!
Do whatever you want as long as your having fun doing it.
Ren
:cool:
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We are talking about 1v1 in the DA. I always try to aviod the HO.
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Originally posted by grmrpr
In thinking about it then guns should be allowable at any time. In my humble opinion it is not a ho if you are shooting down into the ac that is trying to dive... At that point it is not a nose to nose pass.
it is not a HO, it is a canopy or high degree front quarter shot, and on initial merge anything goes unless you have set rules in place ( in regards to 1vs1 DA style)
which most instances is cold guns initial merge only
in MA we all know anything goes and the gun solution you can acquire in the above quote is perfectly normal by some, but I would rather not push negative G's to try and nose down to acquire such a shot, which also means if I am trying to do this I am giving up the angles advantage before I ever cross the 3/9 line of the enemy
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Thanks for the answers, from what i read here i see nothing really new to me, so it seems i already have the theory entirely absorpted over my years of online flying.
I just have to translate them now into AH2 practice by training and experience.
I think i will visit the DA now more frequently and use a wider varity of planes it it.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Thanks for the answers, ......snipped.....
I just have to translate them now into AH2 practice by training and experience.
I think i will visit the DA now more frequently and use a wider varity of planes it it.
Naudet,
sometimes the best thing a long time player can do is go back to square one and start with the basics, yes all of us long time players think we know it all, heh
but starting back at the beginning can quickly see what you are overlooking or performing wrong and most times it is so small and so simple it is too hard to see or think of.
as you have said you going to spend more time in the DA, that is a good start. something I would consider would be to get a trainer or Nomak, Shane, Morpheus, Leviathn, rawr to name a few to go a few rounds with ya in the DA or even TA and see if they can tell you what they see you doing wrong.......flying a particular plane with in its envelope though is a must, and if your trying to turn fight in the dora for more than say 2 revs then I would say that is ya problem in a nutshell, you are thinking pull more more more, when actually pulling less will give you more in the end ( pulling = turning)
not saying this is what you're doing, but so many in the MA and CT as well as DA have the mind set of once you merge and start turning to pull harder turn tighter ( BLEED ALL THEIR "E" ) and the plane they are fighting is probably pulling 1/2 of what they are and still wins
think E management part of SA
I know you know all this just trying to give a tip
need any help email the trainers at:
trainers(at)hitechcreations(dot)com
or can email me personally at:
TequilaChaser(at)flyaceshigh(dot)com
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Originally posted by grmrpr
I have fought Redd in the DA and have lost. Redd is very good. Each time I have fought him he has dived below my nose. No offense Redd but I think this is a cheap tactic. In my experiences in WB and at the 97 Con. The merge was always taught to me as having to be wings level at the merge at co-alt. No plane should turn or move until wing tips have passed. Not only are you diving down but you are pulling up before the merge takes place. Since a no HO call was made there is no counter for the tactic other than dive down with you.
I am not saying I think the outcome of the fights would have been differant just saying that the tactic of diving below the target in a 1v1 DA fight is wrong in my book. AC should pass co-alt wingtip to wingtip in the same energy states heading in opposing directions.
GrmRpr
I can't remember that ever being the rule in WB , but if they were, they were pretty bad rules. (I do remember Scop showing me the importance of vertical separation in a duel, and that must have been around 96/97)
I merge that way in just about every fight , both in the DA and in the MA.
Merge tactics are probably the most fun part of duelling, seeing what the other guy does, and adjusting accordingly. Horizontal and vertical seperation , speed , merge type are all things to be tweaked and changed , that can effect the outcome of a fight.
To pass wings level like you are saying would probably be unenforceable, create too many argumenents, and doesn't promote good flying that you can then apply to the MA and everywhere else.
As also mentioned by TC , the other benefit is that it is the best way to avoid HO's in the MA. Everytime someone dives into you and tries to HO , you know you have them dead in less than 2 turns
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Originally posted by Naudet
Thanks for the answers, from what i read here i see nothing really new to me, so it seems i already have the theory entirely absorpted over my years of online flying.
I just have to translate them now into AH2 practice by training and experience.
I think i will visit the DA now more frequently and use a wider varity of planes it it.
Hey Naudet
after our session I took the Dora out in the MA and had some fun with it. It is quite awesome . And as you were saying can do a lot more than most people try with it.
so thanks for the dora tips as well - a win/win
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Originally posted by Redd
I can't remember that ever being the rule in WB , but if they were, they were pretty bad rules. (I do remember Scop showing me the importance of vertical separation in a duel, and that must have been around 96/97)
I merge that way in just about every fight , both in the DA and in the MA.
Merge tactics are probably the most fun part of duelling, seeing what the other guy does, and adjusting accordingly. Horizontal and vertical seperation , speed , merge type are all things to be tweaked and changed , that can effect the outcome of a fight.
To pass wings level like you are saying would probably be unenforceable, create too many argumenents, and doesn't promote good flying that you can then apply to the MA and everywhere else.
As also mentioned by TC , the other benefit is that it is the best way to avoid HO's in the MA. Everytime someone dives into you and tries to HO , you know you have them dead in less than 2 turns
Hey Redd-
At the 97 Con when Edbert and I flew against Scop and Drex the rules were leads passed as I stated above and the wings were weapons free after the 2 lead ships passed.
In that particular fight Edbert and Scop went HO- Scop lost- I slid in behind drex @d200 and was pounding him. He was inside my convergence and didnt take too much damage. Drex being who he is started to eventually win the turn. I Start to drag him out but unknown to me at the time Edbert had lost his elevator in the HO with Scop. Even w/o an Elevator the drag was so perfect Ed was almost able to finish Drex... Almost... In the end we lost Drex and Scop flew on to win the tourney and get a ride in Texas aces. To this day I still have not forgiven Edbert for not telling me he had no Elevator ;)
Side story aside I remember the rules as I stated above. It is no biggie ;) Just providing feedback on your post.
GrmRpr
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I know you know all this just trying to give a tip
I appreciate that TC and i can assure you that i try to get some DA/TA schedules with the guys you mentioned and yourself if i see you in the MA. The problem here might just be the timezone i am playing in, which means i seldom see any of the named online..
The questions i put here are really for a 1v1 co-E situation, same planes, so a situation were the pilot skills matters because all other factors are even.
When flying the Dora in the MA, this is rarely the case and i ajust my flying according to the circumstances i face, usually meaning i fly the Dora to it strengths.
But different than when i left AH1, were K/D was what counted for me most, i am now looking for good and challenging fights.
This sometimes means flying the Dora in a way very few do and some would call suicidal. It is just to much fun to see Spit and Niki pilots shake their heads in confusion when they just lost a slow speed close in dogfight against a Dora.
As i mentioned to Redd in the DA, most Dora pilots don't fly the bird to it's limits. Most take it, because it is second to none in speed except the La7.
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What Ive been doing lately... this aint really on topic but could be used in a Dora in the MA quite well I guess... is that when I have the E advantage I go for lag turn instead of lead turn...
I go into the lag turn and let em think that Ive got em out turned. When they think they have out turned me and that I have "over shot", which is their conclution since I disapear of their six view under them, I tighten my turn. This gives me a perfect 200d shot.
When at high speeds (well as high as a Spit9 can get me) I really dont wana cut in to sharp for the lead turn. If I can get the lead turn without burning too much E yes then I take it as it gives me a good shot faster but I just dont force it. Instead I go lag and let em think they got me cleared.
I can see this working very well in a dora as most people do a sharp turn see the dora not beeing able to turn with em and flatten out.
Tex
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Yea, lag pursuit is a wonderful thing. It does work for you if you in a high wing loaded plane against a turner, but you also need to know when to get out. A good pilot will turn your lag into a reversal. But lag pursuit is still good as it gives you options either way and it drives the bandit crazy:D Of course some fights you don't have the luxury of playing cat and mouse with the lag and must go for a quick shot (or get out). Lag pursuit holds more of your precious E too:)
Back to topic - Naudet, try to make sure that you are at top speed upon dot range, or at least icon range. It's deceptive to the bandit and you can then dive into the fight in say a P51 doing about 500IAS 1k to 2k below the enemies. The point being if they don't see you start your dive for speed on a "merge" they will more often ignore your separation. All that's left to do is go vertical underneath them and pick out the guy that's not watching and kill him. This works well even in a 1 vs 1 if you've built speed before a merge. At worst you can get above them if they follow you nose to nose since you more often than not will have more E than you opponent.
Speed is life - and is an easy skill to master :D
Magoo
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I noticed that with TrackIR my lead turning and deflection shooting improved alot. Maybe before with the Snapviews i just didnt get the right feeling.
Additonaly i seem to pull much less G while using TrackIR and this than gives me more E to work with.
For instance i had a deck alt fight with an LA7 last WE, when he went into a right hand turn, i followed him using lag pursuit and let him gain angles on me, at the point were i could judge he would try to go for a gunssolution i had enough E left to go vertical, reverse over the top, fall in behind him at D200 and take his wing off.
Before i had TrackIR i just wouldn't have had the feeling for the right timing.
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Each time I have fought him he has dived below my nose. No offense Redd but I think this is a cheap tactic.
That is where you want to be 99% of the time. when you are co alt/co E with another fighter. I will always dive under. And its not a "cheap" tactic" its a smart tactic.
Going under you create an angle right from the merge on. An angle that creates an advantage. You also, if under the nose of the other guy, move out of sight for a split second. Which is more than enough time to make a reversal that the higher con can't counter because he can't counter act a move he cant see.
General rules of the DA have always been you call a merge alt. 8k 6k... whatever. Climb to that alt and dont go above. Once you reach within icon range of the other con, you can go up down whatever....