Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Urchin on February 09, 2005, 07:41:22 PM
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WalMart is just shutting the store down rather than let the workers unionize.. I guess they let it get out of hand.
I know when I worked at Sams Club they'd fire people for even mentioning union.
Do you Canadians not have enough illegal immigrants up there or something? Just wondering how they'd let a whole store try to unionize and then decide to close it down rather than just fire em all and start over.
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Big unions are pretty much organized crime.
Let them open their own @#$@#$ store chain.
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Screw unions.
Screw Walmart more. :)
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this is the second case of people wanting to unionize in my area....
the first was a McD' that was pretty busy and profitable, once the union was accepted they closed the McD's, guess Walmart will do the same...
last I heard the union was accepted by the Walmart employes, no news if they will close or not...
and yes we do Urch... but not even close to it being like the US...Illegal Imm. I mean
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Just read the story on Yahoo when I opened up IE, the store is closing in May.
My take on it is that if the government won't protect people from the wealthy.. the people have to do it themselves. That is where unions come in.
'Course, in America the wealthy and the government are the same thing, so unions haven't got a snowballs chance in hell.
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what I don't get is, if its a profitable store why close it...
I would still have my old job if I was unionized, but I wasn't a fortunate one...boss decided he didn't like me anymore and voila the door...
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Originally posted by SLO
what I don't get is, if its a profitable store why close it...
I would still have my old job if I was unionized, but I wasn't a fortunate one...boss decided he didn't like me anymore and voila the door...
because it sets a good example.
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Basically because it sets a precedent. Walmart is completely against unionization because it means they'd have to do things like raise wages, provide benefits, go away from part time labour to full time, things like that.
Taking care of your employees really cuts into the profit margin, cheaper to just buy the politicians somewhere else and set up a new store.
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Originally posted by SLO
this is the second case of people wanting to unionize in my area....
the first was a McD' that was pretty busy and profitable, once the union was accepted they closed the McD's, guess Walmart will do the same...
last I heard the union was accepted by the Walmart employes, no news if they will close or not...
and yes we do Urch... but not even close to it being like the US...Illegal Imm. I mean
I read about that in a Vermont newspaper SLO, kinda amzing, I never thought unions were that big in Canada... guess I am a bit unread in that area.
BTW, comment ca vas l'hiver dans quebec?
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I heard on the radio the other day about a new tax being proposed in Montana, specificly on 'big box' retailers (read that as Walmart).
The problem is Walmart pays so little in salary and benefits, that even people with fulltime jobs at Walmart are a drain on state government resources.
The legislature is considering a very controversial new tax on "big box" stores like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Costco, and the like. The tax would amount to 1% on gross retail receipts between $10 million and $20 million, an additional 0.5% on the next $10 million, and an additional 0.5% on everything over that. When a similar measure was proposed in 2003, it was defeated by a mere 2 votes.
There is also a carrot to complement the stick of this tax proposal. Big box stores which have fewer than 25% of their workers as part time and which pay entry level employees at least $22,000 per year, including benefits, may be exempt. This is a fairly low bar to pass. The rationale behind the exemption is that research shows that large employers who pay sub-poverty wages are actually a drain on the local economy rather than a contributor.
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Yea, that is gonna happen lol.
Good idea though.
Maryland is attempting something similar, although I believe Walmart is the only mega-corp that would be effected by it here.
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Originally posted by SLO
boss decided he didn't like me anymore and voila the door...
That is SO hard to believe!
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Originally posted by SLO
what I don't get is, if its a profitable store why close it...
I would still have my old job if I was unionized, but I wasn't a fortunate one...boss decided he didn't like me anymore and voila the door...
So, in other words... you would still have your old job if some union forced your employer to keep you, even though they hated you and thought you sucked as an employie.
Unions suk.
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Anyone remember the "buy American" campaign WalMart used to run? "We saved 64 jobs in Boondocks, Mississippi because we buy American toasters!" Have'nt seen that one on the air in over 10 years. Just try to find anything in the store that isn't made in China. Now it's buy from us or STFU. WalMarx. I'll drive 20 miles out of the way to buy anything from their compeditors.
(http://gilbertv.com/coppermine/albums/test/billboard_walmart.jpg)
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"There is also a carrot to complement the stick of this tax proposal. Big box stores which have fewer than 25% of their workers as part time and which pay entry level employees at least $22,000 per year, including benefits, may be exempt. This is a fairly low bar to pass. The rationale behind the exemption is that research shows that large employers who pay sub-poverty wages are actually a drain on the local economy rather than a contributor."
WalMart holds seminars for their employees on how to apply for county welfare benefits. They have also established "transient camps" in their parking lots with their policy of allowing free unrestricted RV camping on their property..."RV" being defined as any motor vehicle, BTW, at least up here.
It's amazing what big business and a socialistic County Government can do when they work together- the more WalMarts who move in the bigger our County beaucracy gets. WalMart gets cheap labor and the County gets to administer the welfare money.
It's a win-win for them and a big loss for the taxpayer.
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Why in the F**K do people think big companies like Wallmart owe them something more than a job??
Wallmart employes people.....whats the problem??? Don't like working at Wallmart, get another job.
Unions suck.
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Man, you are the perfect Walmart propogandist..
Do you work there? If not, you should. You give off the impression of being an illiterate moron, yet you are all in favor of the exploitation of people just like you the world over.
The problem isn't just that Walmart pays sub-sustinance wages in an attempt to "cut costs", it is that they force all of their competitors to do the same or face bankruptcy.
So what are you going to say when in 50 years ALL jobs are "Walmart jobs"? Move to another country? Love it or leave it?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Why in the F**K do people think big companies like Wallmart owe them something more than a job??
Wallmart employes people.....whats the problem??? Don't like working at Wallmart, get another job.
Unions suck.
You didn't even spell WalMart right. YOU suck. And I hate you.
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I'm not Canadian, and ONLY purchase .45 Auto Value Packs from Wal-Mart. As long as they stay 19.97 for 100 rounds, they can have four unions.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm not Canadian, and ONLY purchase .45 Auto Value Packs from Wal-Mart. As long as they stay 19.97 for 100 rounds, they can have four unions.
Karaya
And don't you see the endless cycle here? WalMart sells you cheap ammo so you can protect yourself from the part time WalMart employees forced into a life of crime by being paid a substandard wage.
Works for you, works for WalMart, sucks for their employees....
and sucks for America.
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http://www.pinkertons.com/
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You don't have unions down there? It must really suck to be a regular worker, no protection whatsoever.
I always wondered about those stories with people having 2-3 jobs and still barely making it.. Now I start to understand.
Do you even have a state governed minimum wage?
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Nope, our leader, President Bush got rid of all that on his first day in office of his first term.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nope, our leader, President Bush...
:rofl
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My younger brother works at Walmart and he gets full benifits and is paid well.
I really haven't heard of ANYONE here at our Walmart that is unhappy with what they get.
I guess that's a red state thing. We don't think that we are owed anything just because we exist.
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Why in the F**K do people think big companies like Wallmart owe them something more than a job??
Actually the economy is there for the people and not vise versa as managers, kapitalists and the rich might think.
You don't pay you employees well, you will soon have a decrease in turnover, if you than cut payment again, your turnover will cease further.
You can just squelch that out of the people what you give to them.
I don't have a problem with companies releasing people or lowering wages when they are in the red numbers. But it is just plain sick, amoral and in my eyes criminal if companies cut wages and release people just to raise their already huge profits.
The more power you have the more responsibility you also have.
And as sadly as it is, the managers of multinational corporations have more power than elected statesmen.
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Montana is a 'red' state. That's why I was so surprised reading about this attempt to introduce a tax on a predatory employer.
It shows some people are thinking longer term and looking at the whole picture of what's going on - not just labor/management economic balance but also costs and benefits to society (the society being in this cast the State of Montana).
I'll bet most Montanans are fair-minded, decent people. I hope we learn how it comes out.
Oh - Mighty1 - how much does your brother make? Is he married with children, or just living at home? Just curious.
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someone didn't like slo? Inconcievable!
lazs
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Originally posted by oboe
Montana is a 'red' state. That's why I was so surprised reading about this attempt to introduce a tax on a predatory employer.
It shows some people are thinking longer term and looking at the whole picture of what's going on - not just labor/management economic balance but also costs and benefits to society (the society being in this cast the State of Montana).
I'll bet most Montanans are fair-minded, decent people. I hope we learn how it comes out.
Oh - Mighty1 - how much does your brother make? Is he married with children, or just living at home? Just curious.
He makes around $12 an hour and he is married with 1 kid.
For around here $12 hr isn't to bad. His wife works part time and they seem to be doing fine.
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The point of a business (well, mine at least), is to make money. People that own WMT stock probably don't care if a store closes because of a union or not. All they want to see is their little ticker with a + next to it. Can't blame them... that's why you buy stock in the first place.
Now, I'd like to ask all you pro-union guys, why does somebody doing a menial job that anybody can do (like a wal-mart stocker), deserve to be unionized and make more than minimum wage? It's a bottom rung, entry level job. No particular skill set is required. This is not a troll, I'm genuinely interested. I've always had the opinion that if you didn't get paid what you thought you were worth, then you should improve your education and skills, and go get a new a job.
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The cost of unionization gets passed on to the consumer. Walmart's whole deal is cheap stuff. Make that stuff 'not-so-cheap' and not only does it hurt corporate Walmart through lost revenue and higher wages, it hurts the consumers through higher prices and eventually and ultimately it hurts the employees.
Walmart isn't some slave corporation where people are forced into indentured servitude, people except jobs there willingly. If they don't like the pay or working conditions they can go else where to find work. Walmart doesn't owe its employees 'a living' they owe share holders and it's costumers.
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Let's do the math.
50 rounds of .45 auto = $13.99 (more at the range)
100 rounds of .45 auto = $19.79 at Wal-Mart.
Thanks Wal-Mart.
Karaya
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So buy them somewhere else.
Walmart cannot possibly be cheaper on everything all the time.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
So buy them somewhere else.
Walmart cannot possibly be cheaper on everything all the time.
I shoot Winchester White boxes through my HK USP .45.
Karaya
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I wouldn't call myself 'pro-union' as I have never been a member of one and I try to take a balanced view of them. I think there is so much hatred for unions on this board though that my position makes it look like I'm a big supporter of unions.
I just try to remind people that unions came into being for a reason during the 30s. You can read some history to find out what ordinary people's lives were like back then and what drove them to unionize, and the violence that was spawned in some cities (Minneapolis included) as the labor movement grew in importance. Unions are about more than just getting higher wages for members - they are also concerned with safe working conditions, benefits, job security, etc. In return (and I'm thinking of skilled labor here) they offer companies highly trained and effective employees. I worked in a unionized factory one summer and boy, those union members worked hard and fast, and when break time was over they were back on the job, right on time. I also lived next door to a union welder for a while, who welded staircases for parking ramps and office buildings under construction. He told me a number of horror stories about construction techniques (or lack thereof) of the untrained, non-unionized workers. One case was they weren't putting in expansion joints in the concrete they were laying, which would seriously undermine the safety and lifespan of the ramp they were building. Or would have to be torn up and done over, if the building inspectors caught it.
You business owners find no fault in yourselves for trying to maximize profits (in a sense raising the standard of living for your company and its stakeholders) - why do you denigrate people who try to do the same thing? Labor union's goals are to essentially raise the standard of living of their members.
OK, so higher wages are passed on to the consumers when employees unionize, the flip side is that higher government costs are passed on to taxpayers when employees aren't unionized. Someone in Montana recognized that, and is trying to do something about it. Maybe they're tired of huge corporate profits being made out of state, while Montana taxpayers are left to foot the bill of the unmet needs of Walmart employees.
Anyway that's my take on it.
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Just thought...
In an American supermarket, there's at least twice as many people working there than in Europe. Of course it's nice to have you groceries packed for you(Personally I hate it) and all that but I rather serve myself while knowing that the people working there are even somewhat decently paid. Also when I really need good service and help I'm more likely to receive it from a person who's better paid, at least that's my gut feeling.
Of course it means less jobs, but also less people living on the edge.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Big unions are pretty much organized crime.
I knew it. The I.U.P.A is run by mobsters with badges, and the NTPA protects them!
The National Police and Troopers Association (NPTA) is a special program within the International Union of Police Associations, AFL-CIO (IUPA). The NPTA was created to provide specialized service dedicated to the specific needs of state troopers and police professionals. IUPA provides these police and troopers with education, safety surveys and equipment testing, wage and hour enhancements, organizing, and mutually beneficial communication with other like police officers and troopers across the nation who comprise the IUPA family.
It's going to be hard to make sure anyone that works all night at Walmart stays at minimum wage indy007 and might just think about starting a wildcat Walmart stock dooming union.
Can you please post your job description and wage, with an exit plan including education choices so they can strive to loft themselves to your well earned union-free status? Give them a goal, the over achievers might follow your footsteps. F the hold outs that are worthless bag stuffers.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"There is also a carrot to complement the stick of this tax proposal. Big box stores which have fewer than 25% of their workers as part time and which pay entry level employees at least $22,000 per year, including benefits, may be exempt. This is a fairly low bar to pass. The rationale behind the exemption is that research shows that large employers who pay sub-poverty wages are actually a drain on the local economy rather than a contributor."
WalMart holds seminars for their employees on how to apply for county welfare benefits. They have also established "transient camps" in their parking lots with their policy of allowing free unrestricted RV camping on their property..."RV" being defined as any motor vehicle, BTW, at least up here.
It's amazing what big business and a socialistic County Government can do when they work together- the more WalMarts who move in the bigger our County beaucracy gets. WalMart gets cheap labor and the County gets to administer the welfare money.
It's a win-win for them and a big loss for the taxpayer.
That I find incredible. It actually costs the taxpayers money to have a Walmart store in some areas because the some employees are paid so badly they have to be on welfare.
Isn't that a kind of subsidy for big business?
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LOL blame Walmart for people being on welfare. Tards.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
My younger brother works at Walmart and he gets full benifits and is paid well.
I really haven't heard of ANYONE here at our Walmart that is unhappy with what they get.
I guess that's a red state thing. We don't think that we are owed anything just because we exist.
Please send all your fed money ( Farm subsidies etc ) back if you can take care of yourselves.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Walmart isn't some slave corporation where people are forced into indentured servitude, people except jobs there willingly. If they don't like the pay or working conditions they can go else where to find work. Walmart doesn't owe its employees 'a living' they owe share holders and it's costumers.
By all means- if they don't like working at WalMart they can always get a better job at McDonald's or Starbucks or one of the other career opportunities created by our booming economy. :rolleyes:
I'm surprised so many of you are willing to accept so little for yourselves....sounds like some of you have serious self worth issues.
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Originally posted by Creamo
Can you please post your job description and wage, with an exit plan including education choices so they can strive to loft themselves to your well earned union-free status? Give them a goal, the over achievers might follow your footsteps. F the hold outs that are worthless bag stuffers.
LOL. I have 2 jobs, a small business, I go to school at night (no loans/grants/scholarship/parental help), and spend time with my low maintenance girlfriends. If somebody doesn't make enough money to support their lifestyle... they need a second job. Right now I work upwards of 80 hours a week and still find time to study and play. I just don't sleep much.
I also intentionally live well below my means, so I don't get into the same dire financial positions I see my co-workers fall into.
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Originally posted by NUKE
So, in other words... you would still have your old job if some union forced your employer to keep you, even though they hated you and thought you sucked as an employie.
Unions suk.
comprehension problem there NUKE, I actually trained his people on the new systems...4 employees with more the 20 years exp. yet he choose me...so it wasn't an EMPLOYE problem, it was a BOSS using his privileges.
like I said, one day he woke up and didn't like me telling him his equipement was due for a major upgrade, he thought otherwise, I tried giving him the facts, he thought I was pushing him too much...
we where actually 3 who lost the jobs because of one bosses whim of madness and lashing out, we had no protection against it...at least with a union he would of had to justify himself...
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got your e-mail Bodhi, sorry didn't have time to respond...
anytime you come up, Beers on me, oh and some fine food too :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
someone didn't like slo? Inconcievable!
lazs
the day you do like me, is the day I shot myself...
wait a minute, no guns here, Hari-Kari for me then...:D
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Urchin, you were correct, they are gonna close the store, saw it in the papers today
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Originally posted by Urchin
Man, you are the perfect Walmart propogandist..
The problem isn't just that Walmart pays sub-sustinance wages in an attempt to "cut costs", it is that they force all of their competitors to do the same or face bankruptcy.
So what are you going to say when in 50 years ALL jobs are "Walmart jobs"? Move to another country? Love it or leave it?
boo hoo.
Walmart doesn't force anyone to do anything. And, if in 50 years, all jobs are Walmart jobs, I'll eat my hat.
Walmart is not some evil monster. They employ a lot of people who otherwise might not have jobs, plus they sell things at good prices. What's wrong with that?
Unions are the reason some no skilled moron screwing on lug nuts at an auto plant makes $30.00 an hour.
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Originally posted by indy007
LOL. I have 2 jobs, a small business, I go to school at night (no loans/grants/scholarship/parental help), and spend time with my low maintenance girlfriends. If somebody doesn't make enough money to support their lifestyle... they need a second job. Right now I work upwards of 80 hours a week and still find time to study and play. I just don't sleep much.
I also intentionally live well below my means, so I don't get into the same dire financial positions I see my co-workers fall into.
Yup. Scrimp and save, work two jobs PLUS hustle on the side, and you, too can achieve the American Dream. :rolleyes:
Thank you for making my argument for the needs of organized labor.
OTOH I admire your drive and willingness to do it yourself, and wish you the best of success.
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Airhead whats your opinion of APWA?
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From what I read, that store isnt performing well. The article I saw on Yahoo also indicated that they were in negotiations but what the union folks want is unattainable. So, stalemated, Walmart is shutting the store.
I've heard both stories about the WalMarts...like Airhead mentioned, some are a real drain on local communities since they do not offer any benefits. On the other hand, I've heard from folks who work there that they DO have benefits, they just have to be there 6months to a year to qualify. Which is really true...I dont know.
How much should a guy in an apron make? Its minimal wage work. I mean, WalMart isnt known for its enormous wages, folks...if you want the lowest price on something, hit it. But if you are looking for jobs...it aint the kinda place I'd target my resume for.
For me...I think our local WalMarts look run down. I prefer the local Target, thank you :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
boo hoo.
Walmart doesn't force anyone to do anything. Walmart is not some evil monster. They employ a lot of people who otherwise might not have jobs, plus they sell things at good prices. What's wrong with that?
Nuke, the problem is WalMart is a preditory retailer. They are almost singlehandedly responsable for the destruction of small town America. Let's take my local WalMart SuperCenter as an example.
Prior to WalMart, there were dry goods, hardware and stationary stores in 4 small towns in my county. Then WalMart moved in. They undercut the prices of the small Mom & Pop's and drove them out of business. All the while running "Buy American and save American jobs" ad campaign. Now there is no choice in these 4 small towns except to drive to the county seat and buy from WalMart who has raised their prices because there is no competition. They also have stopped buying American to save American jobs.
What happened to these former Mom & Pop small business owners? They are now working as greeters at miminum wage for WalMart, adding insult to injury.
Before WalMart, if you had a problem with an item you could return it with no problem. Now with WalMart, if you return too many items, you are blacklisted and they will not accept any returns fom you. Nevermind if the items are made poorly in Sri Lanka or China. You take what they give you and live with it.
Did I mention they search your basket on the way out, automaticly assuming you are a thief?
Granted, this is only the story of what has happened in my county. But it is repeated over and over again across America. WalMart is evil, pure and simple. WalMart.
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There's also the fact that over twenty percent of all music sales go through Walmart, who just happens to love meddling with its suppliers. If Walmart won't stock it, ya might as well not make it. What do ya do? Make something Walmart can approve of. Real great.
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Yes I have heard Walmart strong arms its suppliers - they basically tell them they have to set up shop in China to achieve the kind of profit margins they require. You disagree, they cut you out and you die. That's what happened to RubberMaid.
Free market capitalism really does have an ugly side to it, from a common man's point of view.
Paraphrasing Twain, "I have always been opposed to billionaires, but it would be dangerous to offer me the position."
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funny thing is, quebecs minimum wage is $7.45, and all the walmart stores ive been are staffed by people 14-18, and semi retired old people, working 15-20 hours a week...neither of which require anymore than minimum wage pay for a minimum skill/work job
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It is easy to survive in a small town with a Walmart. I know, I have done it with a "Mom & Pop" hardware store. Even when Lowes also moved in, less than a mile a way, it did not hurt sales for long. All it takes is service.
What you also must understand about Walmart and any other big-box is that they adjust their prices to the local conditions. A small retail can never beat them on price, but the box store will also not try and beat the locals by very much. Maintain quality products, excellent service and the nearby presence of a big box will actually draw business TO you.
I have seen it for years selling to small hardware stores, and, like I said, exprienced it firsthand.
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Originally posted by Lizking
It is easy to survive in a small town with a Walmart. I know, I have done it with a "Mom & Pop" hardware store. Even when Lowes also moved in, less than a mile a way, it did not hurt sales for long. All it takes is service.
What you also must understand about Walmart and any other big-box is that they adjust their prices to the local conditions. A small retail can never beat them on price, but the box store will also not try and beat the locals by very much. Maintain quality products, excellent service and the nearby presence of a big box will actually draw business TO you.
I have seen it for years selling to small hardware stores, and, like I said, exprienced it firsthand.
WalMart doesn't compete in the hardware business Lizking, wait til Home Depot comes in- then post about how well you're doing.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Re: Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
No.
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Sorry, Bud, they do(Walmart). I suppose you have never been in one? And Lowes is Home Depot in gray paint.
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I guess we shouldn't have supermarkets either because they have driven away all the small mom and pop grocerey stores :rolleyes:
Walmart is not the bad guy. People love to punish and blame and milk for money large, successful companies.
What about the big bookstore chains? Or Best Buy? Lets get em! Those bastards!
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Originally posted by OneWordAnswer
No.
Thanks for unscrambling the mystery for us, OneWordAnswer. I can only speak for myself, but I was on the edge of my seat, wondering: "Is OneWordAnswer following the Walmart Unionization story?"
The rest of the discussion was a tease. Thanks for putting the real question to bed.... I can breathe easier now.
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Airhead, of the 35,000 SKU's that we carry as an ACE Hardware, Walmart carries around 20,000 of the same SKU; a Lowes or Home Depot will have close to 30,000 of the same SKU. Of course one of our advantages is that we have greater depth in each product line, but what allows us to grow is service, knowledge and good business practices. We took the hardware store over, for instance, from an actual Mom and Pop who were losing their bellybutton because they did not provide service, their pricing was way too high, and they paid too little attention to the product mix.
Walmart-1.4 miles away, Lowes-.5 miles away, and sales are up 10% over last year, 20% over 2 years ago and 30% over 3 years ago.
edit-population of the town is 5-6,000, BTW.
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Originally posted by rpm
Nuke, the problem is WalMart is a preditory retailer. They are almost singlehandedly responsable for the destruction of small town America. Let's take my local WalMart SuperCenter as an example.
Prior to WalMart, there were dry goods, hardware and stationary stores in 4 small towns in my county. Then WalMart moved in. They undercut the prices of the small Mom & Pop's and drove them out of business. All the while running "Buy American and save American jobs" ad campaign. Now there is no choice in these 4 small towns except to drive to the county seat and buy from WalMart who has raised their prices because there is no competition. They also have stopped buying American to save American jobs.
What happened to these former Mom & Pop small business owners? They are now working as greeters at miminum wage for WalMart, adding insult to injury.
Before WalMart, if you had a problem with an item you could return it with no problem. Now with WalMart, if you return too many items, you are blacklisted and they will not accept any returns fom you. Nevermind if the items are made poorly in Sri Lanka or China. You take what they give you and live with it.
Did I mention they search your basket on the way out, automaticly assuming you are a thief?
Granted, this is only the story of what has happened in my county. But it is repeated over and over again across America. WalMart is evil, pure and simple. WalMart.
Crap, I can't hardly stand it, RPM and I agree on something.
I have seen Walmart destroy small business western Kansas. And the one thing that really tells the strory is when WalMart began selling gasoline. Its a loss leader to them. Not only has it hurt the mom and pop stores but the local conveinece store is in the middle now.
I have been rereading alot of Adam Smith lately, kind of makes ya wonder.
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Originally posted by Lizking
edit-population of the town is 5-6,000, BTW.
Holy! I bet there's the odd time that you go entire days without seeing anyone at all. At least that's how I picture it. Anyways...
I can't believe people are actually defending Walmart.
For one thing... Only with the relative anonymity that comes with the internet will people even admit to shopping there. For two, they are arses. For three, they sell cheap crap.
It's not an attack on our beloved capitalism to call a spade a spade. They just suck, that's all.
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I am not defending Walmart; I don't shop there, and hate them with a passion, I am defending the ingenuity and ability of small business owners to kick their ass, or at least make a good living in their shadow.
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A town of 5-6,000 with a regional draw of 35,000, that is, Nash, located 60 miles North of Houston on a recreational lake. We are not a little store, either, with 10,000sqft under AC and 15,000sqft of garden center.
In San Antonio, a little 5,000sqft hardware store doubled their sales when a Home Depot opened across the street. Conversely, a 5 location chain with stores from 6 to 10,000sqft was forced out of busines when the Home Depot located in their small towns (pop. 5,000 to 15,000). It is all about how you run your business, not who you do business against.
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Oh yeah, FYI, we pay a little above minimum wage with no benefits other than a great working environment.
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Lizking, you list Austin as your location. You likely have a much larger metropolitan population to draw from than the 50,000 my county has. You also say you are an ACE franchise. That's hardly Mom & Pop. You have a national chain to support your advertising and your inventory costs. I'm talking about non-franchise, non-subsidised inventory priced retailers.
You speak the truth in the fact customer service will draw a certain amount of dedicated consumers. My local WalMart has 1 isle of hardware with 1 employee to work it. They have a larger sections of paint, lighting, automotive accessories, ect. But if I need a PVC fitting I'm SOL. That's why the local lumber yards have stayed in business here. But the headline in this week's newspaper was Lowe's to announce local store opening! What was not printed in the paper was when ACE Hardware closed. Be glad you have the population to support your store, you are one of the lucky ones. WalMart is turning plenty of small towns into ghost towns.
I'd rather have 2 sisters working in a bordello than a brother that worked at WalMart.
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Our store is in Livingston not Austin. Of the 8 ACE stores in Austin, 6 will be out of business soon, and the other 2 are doing well. There are no more independant hardware/lumberyards, and haven't been for the last 20+ years. They all belong to one coop or another.
PVC fittings are a draw, not a money maker. For instance, we reset the PVC aisle and doubled the SKUs, same with brass. What Walmart, and to a lesser extent, Home Depot do is stock mainly "A" product, with a little "B" product. We stock "A", "B" and "C" product, which means our lines have greater depth.
It is, once again, how you do business, not who you do business against.
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Originally posted by Lizking
It is, once again, how you do business, not who you do business against.
Truer words have never been spoken. Take this to heart, aspiring rnterprenuers.
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screw you Airhead....... I HATE YOU!!!
Give me a job printing chit....I wanna make BIG money and not work very hard.
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Originally posted by NUKE
screw you Airhead....... I HATE YOU!!!
Give me a job printing chit....I wanna make BIG money and not work very hard.
What, you think I don't work very hard? I work harder than anyone here and I gave up a very promising dancing career to persue my dreams so I hate you right back, Nuke... although I am intrigued by your offer of hugging you tightly as we speed across the desert on your motorcycle, and I imagine we could have a side car in SOB would be riding in it wearing a straight jacket and a ball gag, and there's a full moon and we can see those armadillios from a million miles away and we could play polo with them as SOB snotted his approval...
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The Bats! The Bats!
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When the speedcop tries to pull you over, don't do it. It will only raise the contempt in his blood. Instead, speed up and make him give chase. This will make him respect you.
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I would like to submit this thread as the one fillled with the most oatmeal brains.
"Unions suck! baaaahhhhh"
"Unions are organized crime! bahhhhhhhh"
"Unions who needs them? Business is honest! Bahhhhhh"
You oatmeal filled sheep.
The cold war nor Reagan brought communism to it knees. Unions did you friggin morons.
Sorry to be obnoxious but I have little patience with outright stupidity.
Edit: on second thought what a better place to separate those with a basic education (i.e high school) from those without. Oh PLEASE lets get into the history, accomplishments and VICTORIES of those damn UNIONS.
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I thought avacadotybird quit?
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Tweety is right.
We really should discuss the HISTORY of unions....
:aok
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Edit: on second thought what a better place to separate those with a basic education (i.e high school) from those without.
That's not very nice. It's not true that all the pro-union commies have high school diplomas only. I happen to know that some of them had a little college, or at least spent some time on a college campus handing out flowers or selling dope.
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Yeah, let's discuss the history of unions.
Class, let's start with this question:
Which came first:
1) Unions
2) Abusive Management
(I figured we better start with an easy one. You have five minutes and then I will collect the papers.)
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Oh Oh I know, I know!
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Not fair Toad, he cheated!
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Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, let's discuss the history of unions.
Class, let's start with this question:
Which came first:
1) Unions
2) Abusive Management
(I figured we better start with an easy one. You have five minutes and then I will collect the papers.)
are you a pro union man?
What came first:
1. Unions
2. Jobs
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The history goes like this:
Abusive bosses
Abusive trade guilds
Abusive corporations
Abusive Unions
They all suck, pick yer poison, or work for yourself.
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Toad is an airline pilot, he loves unions! :)
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The only people that like unions are the people that profit from them. Why is that, do you think?
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Unions have no place in modern America.
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Sure they do, why wouldn't they?
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BBS Search this phrase in the O'Club and see who says it everytime Unions come up.
Then come back and tell me who it was that posted it.
"The only thing worse than a Union is.......... no Union."
That's your second test question.
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Originally posted by Urchin
WalMart is just shutting the store down rather than let the workers unionize.. I guess they let it get out of hand.
I know when I worked at Sams Club they'd fire people for even mentioning union.
Do you Canadians not have enough illegal immigrants up there or something? Just wondering how they'd let a whole store try to unionize and then decide to close it down rather than just fire em all and start over.
There are several other WalMarts in Quebec and BC in the process of becoming unionized... it'll be interesting to see what comes of them. And no, there aren't too many illegal immigrants in Quebec.. they're all in Ontario or BC ;)
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Unions are anti capitalism.
Unions are the reason unskilled labor gets higher pay than they are worth.
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Hey Nuke... ever wonder why the Founders put checks and balances into Government?
Ok... now extend that line of reasoning a bit.
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Originally posted by wetrat
And no, there aren't too many illegal immigrants in Quebec.. they're all in Ontario or BC ;)
And they're Quebeckians. :D
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Originally posted by Toad
BBS Search this phrase in the O'Club and see who says it everytime Unions come up.
Then come back and tell me who it was that posted it.
"The only thing worse than a Union is.......... no Union."
That's your second test question.
you seem to default to the "search the BBS" argument a lot lately.
Why not just state your views anytime someone asks?
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Originally posted by Toad
Hey Nuke... ever wonder why the Founders put checks and balances into Government?
Ok... now extend that line of reasoning a bit.
Unions have nothing to do with the constitution.
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Maybe because by the 300th time I get tired of repeating myself for folks that are memory challenged?
Maybe?
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Toad, you think everyone remembers your stances on everything? I certainly do not.
At least have the nads to state your current views.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Unions are the reason unskilled labor gets higher pay than they are worth
Ok, Nuke. Enlighten me.
A man is born and right that second a clock begins to tick down. When it hits zero, he dies. Nobody really knows how much time is on the clock to start with.
This time is the man's life. Literally.
Now, you want a man to give an employer his most valuable asset... time... for some amount of pay.
Tell me, just what is the time of an unskilled man worth? I mean you know the "unskilled" get paid "higher pay than they are worth" if they're in a Union.
So just what are they worth?
What is a man's lifetime worth?
A man gives his employer 33% of his daily lifetime and in return he should get what?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Toad, you think everyone remembers your stances on everything? I certainly do not.
At least have the nads to state your current views.
Grun knows. He's the one that made the comment that drew the response.
I really don't care if you remember or not. You've certainly participated in enough "Union" threads to have seen me post it MULTIPLE times. It's still current; if I had changed my views, I'd post it.
I'm not going to spoon feed you, sorry.
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Originally posted by wetrat
There are several other WalMarts in Quebec and BC in the process of becoming unionized... it'll be interesting to see what comes of them. And no, there aren't too many illegal immigrants in Quebec.. they're all in Ontario or BC ;)
Well, my bet is they are as good as gone if the unionization thing gets started.
Toad, I wish I had your faith in our government... in my view it is owned part and parcel by wealthy people who's interests are very different from "ordinary Americans".
My view is if the government won't protect its citizens, they need to protect themselves... hence unions.
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Originally posted by Toad
Ok, Nuke. Enlighten me.
A man is born and right that second a clock begins to tick down. When it hits zero, he dies. Nobody really knows how much time is on the clock to start with.
This time is the man's life. Literally.
Now, you want a man to give an employer his most valuable asset... time... for some amount of pay.
Tell me, just what is the time of an unskilled man worth? I mean you know the "unskilled" get paid "higher pay than they are worth" if they're in a Union.
So just what are they worth?
What is a man's lifetime worth?
A man gives his employer 33% of his daily lifetime and in return he should get what?
Toad, you seem to be a complete socialist.. I'm very surpized.
A man does not HAVE to submit or work for ANYONE against his will in the USA.
An employer offers a job....OFFERS....no one is forced to take that job.
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Oh, BTW.. give this a quick read and get back to me with your views on it please.
Wal-Mart: No Bargain? (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/07/eveningnews/main634599.shtml)
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hey Toad
I just started a new airline and I'm hiring experienced pilots at minimum wage.
Would you like to apply? How many qualified pilots do you think I could hire at minimum wage?
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You could hire a bunch if all the other airlines paid minimum wage too.
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yeah, and that makes my point...
thanks
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Lol, no, it doesn't.
But I wouldn't expect you to see that.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Lol, no, it doesn't.
But I wouldn't expect you to see that.
you have just been handed your arse, and you don't even realise it.
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Well, this is about as productive as arguing with a wall.
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Originally posted by Urchin
My view is if the government won't protect its citizens, they need to protect themselves... hence unions.
That's not exactly my view but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this nation needs its Unions.
There's also no doubt that the Unions are their own worst enemy.
Take away all Unions and you rely on Honest Abe's "the better angels of our nature".
You know where that would lead without Unions?
Right here:
The Triangle Factory Fire (http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/narrative3.html)
And I'm waiting for someone to say "that couldn't happen now".
Please, please say "that was a long time ago and nothing like that could happen within the last 15 years.
Please.
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Thank god for unions.
How else would some unskilled worker get paid $30.00 an hour to mount tires in a vehicle plant?
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Originally posted by NUKE
hey Toad
I just started a new airline and I'm hiring experienced pilots at minimum wage.
Would you like to apply? How many qualified pilots do you think I could hire at minimum wage?
More than you can use, depending on your definition of "experienced".
I will give you all the "qualified" pilots you can use for a small finder's fee. I suggest you have good insurance and insulate yourself from any litigation.
People will work for you in the hope of gaining enough time to be competitive at a real airline. They'll leave as soon as they can.
Your position results in a Mesa airlines. Ask some of the Mesa pilots how they feel about their employer and if they want to move on ASAP.
I won't work for you though. I know what my lifetime is worth.
You read the Walmart article yet? How do you feel about subsidizing them?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Thank god for unions.
How else would some unskilled worker get paid $30.00 an hour to mount tires in a vehicle plant?
What do YOU think he should be paid Nuke?
What is his lifetime worth?
He'll only pass this way once. Should he have to work two jobs to have basic shelter, basic food and to be able to afford a wife and one or two kids?
Three jobs?
C'mon Nuke.. what should he get? $6 an hour? What?
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He shouldn't be paid at all actually... hell, he should pay the factory owner for the privilege of mounting tires of some $30,000 SUV.
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Toad, you are disappointment.
You now come across ( to me) as a socialist, European kind of idealist.
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This nuke character doesn't seem to be worth responding to... Anyways, I'll drive 30 minutes to get something I could have from walmart in 10. I'm afraid I'd rather pay for the extra gas, and $0.30 for the product, than give walmart money. Get your damn walmarts out of my country, please :mad:
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Corinthians
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.
See, Nuke? Even Moses knew you had to let the ox get his share.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Toad, you are disappointment.
You now come across ( to me) as a socialist, European kind of idealist.
I'd tell you how you come across to me lately, but I have sworn a solemn oath to myself not to use words like that on a BBS.
Good night.
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You mean he wasn't always a moron?
What happened?
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd tell you how you come across to me lately, but I have sworn a solemn oath to myself not to use words like that on a BBS.
Good night.
can't think of any civilized words to tell me what you think of me?
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Originally posted by Toad
There's also no doubt that the Unions are their own worst enemy.
Yep, that trait is what sours my view of Unions.
As for Urchin's point about the government not protecting people so unions must do it, well the only reason unions are legal is because the government made laws that protected workers rights to unioze. So dont be too hard on the govt Urchin.
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Not really.
Anyone who can't see that there must be YIN and YANG in all things;
anyone who can't see that a man's time is the only thing of real value he will ever have in his life;
anyone who would call me "socialist" while he subsidizes Walmart;
anyone who thinks a man working two or three jobs for basic subsistence and family raising is a good, normal thing...
Nope, no words. Sorry.
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BTW, class.... isn't anyone going to tell me something like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire could NEVER happen now?
Because management cares so much for the workers and all?
C'mon.. puhleez...
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Originally posted by Toad
Not really.
Anyone who can't see that there must be YIN and YANG in all things;
anyone who can't see that a man's time is the only thing of real value he will ever have in his life;
anyone who would call me "socialist" while he subsidizes Walmart;
anyone who thinks a man working two or three jobs for basic subsistence and family raising is a good, normal thing...
Nope, no words. Sorry.
Toad, nobody forces a person to work for them. It's pretty simple.
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Originally posted by Toad
BTW, class.... isn't anyone going to tell me something like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire could NEVER happen now?
Because management cares so much for the workers and all?
C'mon.. puhleez...
OSHA is worse than unions...
;)
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Toad has completley caught me off guard. Turns out he is just a socialist.
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No Nuke, but a man is pretty much "forced" to work if he wants to raise a family.
Anyone want to do a little research on how much "real" wages have declined over the past thirty years, and maybe link that to skyrocketing divorce rates and the social decay that has Republicans up in arms?
Tough to be a good father when you are at work more then you are at home, and mom has to work too.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
OSHA is worse than unions...
;)
Tell me the smiley means you are joking... right?
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Originally posted by Urchin
No Nuke, but a man is pretty much "forced" to work if he wants to raise a family.
LOL!
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Actually, the above should have read "for somebody".
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Originally posted by Urchin
Tell me the smiley means you are joking... right?
I judge your sense of humor to be:
Excellennnnt!
(http://www.rant.com/Monty_Burns.jpg)
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Lol, that is you in 30 years :p
And I don't have a sense of humor on the BBS.
Well, not in the O-club anyway.
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Originally posted by Urchin
No Nuke, but a man is pretty much "forced" to work if he wants to raise a family.
Anyone want to do a little research on how much "real" wages have declined over the past thirty years, and maybe link that to skyrocketing divorce rates and the social decay that has Republicans up in arms?
Tough to be a good father when you are at work more then you are at home, and mom has to work too.
Welfare is responsible for a great deal of the divorces among the working class. A Welfare check effectively replaced the husband and his income because so many of the benefits wwent to mothers and children.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KXF/is_2002_June_17/ai_90305994
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How is school going Urchin?
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Didn't read the Walmart article did you Nuke?
You are subsidizing Walmart's workers. You like getting played for a sucker by a company whose income in 1998 was larger than the GNP of countries like Denmark and Norway?
You're proud of a company whose workers qualify for Food Stamps due to their low wages?
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Originally posted by Toad
Didn't read the Walmart article did you Nuke?
You are subsidizing Walmart's workers. You like getting played for a sucker by a company whose income in 1998 was larger than the GNP of countries like Denmark and Norway?
You're proud of a company whose workers qualify for Food Stamps due to their low wages?
While I wont pretend that WalMarty is some great paying job I do wonder how those wage statistics work out when only Wal-Marts full time employees are counted. The reason I ask is because when im I'm there the workers are mostly either very old retiree types or young teeneagre kids and naturally neither group will pull in a full salary or likel'y needs it.
So an additinal question is then one of stategy, is anything wrong if WalMarts cost strategy is to seek out employees who are open to lower paying part time jobs?
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1 year left I think... got 8 classes I need to take after this semester is over.
Then I'll be armed with a freshly printed degree in Mathematics.
From there I haven't decided wtf I want to do.. g/f is already making plans for me though.
I've heard it is possible to go through grad school for free if you become a TA.. and as one of a relative handful of people with Math degrees that speak recognizable English I figure I'll be a marketable commodity there lol.
But I am going to look for internships this semester for the summer, and also look into some teaching programs, I know Maryland has programs that'll clear student debt as long as you teach for so many years, I've got to look into other states.
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Congrats. Do you have any specialty area in math?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
While I wont pretend that WalMarty is some great paying job I do wonder how those wage statistics work out when only Wal-Marts full time employees are counted. The reason I ask is because when im I'm there the workers are mostly either very old retiree types or young teeneagre kids and naturally neither group will pull in a full salary or likel'y needs it.
So an additinal question is then one of stategy, is anything wrong if WalMarts cost strategy is to seek out employees who are open to lower paying part time jobs?
Walmart doesn't *do* full-time employees. I know at the Sams Club I worked at, there were like 6 FT employees.. all of them were managers.
Anyway... this is kind of a pointless argument, and I gotta go to bed.
Have a good night.
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With more than one million employees (three times more than General Motors), this far-flung retailer is the country’s largest private employer, and it intends to remake the image of the American workplace in its image—which is not pretty.
Yes, there is the happy-faced "greeter" who welcomes shoppers into every store, and employees (or "associates," as the company grandiosely calls them) gather just before opening each morning for a pep rally, where they are all required to join in the Wal-Mart cheer: "Gimme a ‘W!’" shouts the cheerleader; "W!" the dutiful employees respond. "Gimme an A!’" And so on.
Behind this manufactured cheerfulness, however, is the fact that the average employee makes only $15,000 a year for full-time work. Most are denied even this poverty income, for they’re held to part-time work. While the company brags that 70% of its workers are full-time, at Wal-Mart "full time" is 28 hours a week, meaning they gross less than $11,000 a year.
Health-care benefits? Only if you’ve been there two years; then the plan hits you with such huge premiums that few can afford it—only 38% of Wal-Marters are covered.
Grun, ask yourself why the retirees are working there.
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Nite.
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No, not yet... that comes next year.
I've gotta pick something :).
My problem is I think all of it is interesting as hell.. every time I learn something new I'm like.. "Damn, that is good stuff!".
Only problem is I have to bust my bellybutton learning the new stuff... I hate the kids that can sleep through class and still breeze through the tests. I have no idea how they do it.
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Good read Toad, I wasnt aware of the 28 hour week rule/.
But it confirms my general thoughts and brings us back to the question whether anything wrong that WalMart designed a strategy based on essientaly part time workers.
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When it comes to things like this... I tend to be be pretty black & white. I argue from emotion and not logic, which is pointless (but diverting).
I see only two viewpoints... first (mine) which is something like "It is wrong to have a society where the rich get richer and everyone else gets poorer"... for me Walmart is the the grail of that society.
To the people who hold the opposite view, which is "It is not only right, but natural, for the rich to get richer and to drive the rest of society into poverty".. my only response is... Are you ****ing crazy?
How does one come to even HOLD that kind of viewpoint?
Anyway, I'm so done for the night lol.
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Lol, Toad... they have that at Sams Club too. It is gay with a capital GAY.
I refused to open because I would *not* participate in that.. and if you didn't you got written up for it.
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Originally posted by Urchin
No, not yet... that comes next year.
I've gotta pick something :).
My problem is I think all of it is interesting as hell.. every time I learn something new I'm like.. "Damn, that is good stuff!".
Only problem is I have to bust my bellybutton learning the new stuff... I hate the kids that can sleep through class and still breeze through the tests. I have no idea how they do it.
I graduated with a 3.97 GPA all As except two damned A-. %*%$$@@!!!
I basically slept through many classes, as I would often go to bed at 4 or 5 AM on school days - I went to class and just listened. I breezed through the tests often finishing them first and most times getting the top grade in every class. My classmates were amazed. The part most of them never saw was how much time I spent busting my bellybutton studying and the sacrifices I made to do so well and understand our material.
Maybe these guys do the same?
Sounds like you found the right thiong though Urchin, you seem to love your field and you have the right attitude to make it a succsful and rewrding carrer because you love learning new things about it.
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Lol.. I have to pay attention in class... then go through the book... and for tests I do ALL the problems in the sections..
I'm just not smart, I think that is the biggest problem.
I am persistant though.. that has to count for something lol.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Lol.. I have to pay attention in class... then go through the book... and for tests I do ALL the problems in the sections..
I'm just not smart, I think that is the biggest problem.
I am persistant though.. that has to count for something lol.
I did them twice or three times in math. ;)
Lets just say I was damed commited to college and determined to get good grades after I dropped out of high school.
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I only do that when I get em wrong... go back and do em again till I get it right.
Kind of amazing how often you'll do all the calculus stuff right, then screw up the algebra. Well, kind of amazing how often *I* do that anyway.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But it confirms my general thoughts and brings us back to the question whether anything wrong that WalMart designed a strategy based on essientaly part time workers.
Do you want to subsidize their strategy?
That's what's happening. The nation's largest employer pays so little that most (obviously over 70%) of their employees qualify for government social benefits? (And Nuke calls me socialist!)
Beyond that, do a search for Walmart's employee practices in China. Sweatshop would sum it up fairly well.
Yeah, I'm all for competition. I'm all for low prices like everyone else. However, I think there has to be a "floor", a level we don't drop below. When a company that is #10 on Forbes list, has more in revenues than the entire GDP of Israel and Ireland combined and pays 70%+ of its employees wages that qualify them for social welfare benefits we're way out of balance.
What they've done is design a strategy to get the rest of us to pay social welfare benefits to their employees.
Smart? Sure. Good for the country? I don't think so.
Besides, unlike some, I think the Waltons have enough bucks and I don't need to be played for a sucker and subsidize them.
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Simple manipulation of fractions is the hardest ting in calculus.
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Originally posted by Toad
Do you want to subsidize their strategy?
That's what's happening. The nation's largest employer pays so little that most (obviously over 70%) of their employees qualify for government social benefits? (And Nuke calls me socialist!)
Beyond that, do a search for Walmart's employee practices in China. Sweatshop would sum it up fairly well.
Yeah, I'm all for competition. I'm all for low prices like everyone else. However, I think there has to be a "floor", a level we don't drop below. When a company that is #10 on Forbes list, has more in revenues than the entire GDP of Israel and Ireland combined and pays 70%+ of its employees wages that qualify them for social welfare benefits we're way out of balance.
What they've done is design a strategy to get the rest of us to pay social welfare benefits to their employees.
Smart? Sure. Good for the country? I don't think so.
Besides, unlike some, I think the Waltons have enough bucks and I don't need to be played for a sucker and subsidize them.
How many of those 70% are typical mom/dad types raising families.
The point is if WalMart targets the young and very old as part time labor then maybe those annual wages are acceptable considering their stage of life?
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Ugh... must..go..to...sleep lol.
Grun.. I won't argue that most of Walmarts employees are very old or very young.. that was true at the store I worked at.
However, they are competing against stores where that isn't necesarily true. What do you think will happen to the employees of those stores when Walmart can undercut their prices and drive them out of business?
Then Walmarts employees aren't going to be the very old or very young anymore.. they'll be the people who used to work for the competitors.
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(http://crystal.polsci.uh.edu/data/lineberry/Walmart%20cartoon.gif)
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I'm not sure if Wal-Mart would hire them in any numbers and thus deviate from their strategy of targeting the young and old.
As for the bigger picture of what generally happends to workers of businesses displasced by the big box stores I'm not really sure as I havent studied it yet.
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studmuffins, less talking about calculus and more flames pls. WTF?
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but what about playboy's girls of wal-mart?
(http://images.rand0m.org/walmart/beth01.jpg)
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I'd hit that.
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Originally posted by Toad
.
Smart? Sure. Good for the country? I don't think so.
Besides, unlike some, I think the Waltons have enough bucks and I don't need to be played for a sucker and subsidize them.
This is what keeps me awake at night. We have an economic system in place where the main players are encouraged to do things that are detrimental to the health of our nation. It goes beyond Walmart's practices - it's also Black and Decker and hundreds of other manufacturers closing plants and moving to China, Taiwan, Mexico. It's Nike in the Phillippines.
I agree with Urchin's first viewpoint - its inherently wrong and unethical to have a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Now, try to hold that position and not be called a Socialist or Communist. Yet I have to think the founding fathers would agree with it as well.
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The scandinavian model offers uniform wealth for everyone.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The scandinavian model offers uniform wealth for everyone.
Is that literally true? All people all uniformly wealthy? The highest officials, doctors, lawyers - all are equally as wealthy as say, garbage men or, IKEA clerks?
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sheesh... You guys ever lived in a small town with mom and pop stores or just seem em in movies? Everything is twice as much as it needs to be and the service is grudgingly handed out by people who think being rude is "colorful"... they pay their employees less than is legal if they think they can get away with it and are unsafe and crooked with no benifiets for anyone except family members.
When a Wall mart comes in it opens up opportunities for the young and the unemployable to get a decent job and be treated like humans... IT IS AN ENTRY LEVEL JOB you can't even stay there and make entry level pay (unlike the aformentioned mom and pop store) they give you raises if you even show a pulse.
If you want to get ahead you use your time there to learn or further your education... you get ahead there or use it as a stepping stone and a valuable experiance or.... you realize that you are much more happy with less so long as you don't have to put out any effort and never really go anywhere.
The union comes and the salaries go up and employee numbers go dwon and the opportunity to get in at an entry level job decrease. Prices go up for everyone including those least able to pay em.
lazs
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Originally posted by Airhead
Yup. Scrimp and save, work two jobs PLUS hustle on the side, and you, too can achieve the American Dream. :rolleyes:
Thank you for making my argument for the needs of organized labor.
OTOH I admire your drive and willingness to do it yourself, and wish you the best of success.
Thanks for the best wishes, I appreciate that. I can see where our opinions on the "American Dream" differ though. I look around my day job right now, and I see all these people "living it". They're doing their 9 to 5 (well.. 8 to 6), taking care of their families, and watching sports/bbq'ing on the weekends. Their financial problems stem from credit card misuse (a whole different can of worms.. but teaching responsibility isn't easy). I've never said "I don't get paid on that" and refused to do something, which my co-workers do several times a day. I don't want to be at the same desk for 20 years like these guys. I'm not going for "The American Dream" in my mind, I'm going for "Rich People's Reality".
btw, what kind of dancing career did you turn down?
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Wallmart is one of the best things to ever happen to China.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/
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I recommend Suave's link to anybody with broadband. Pretty disturbing and enlightening.
"Only a fool would...stand in the way of progress if..this...is....progress."
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Originally posted by oboe
This is what keeps me awake at night. We have an economic system in place where the main players are encouraged to do things that are detrimental to the health of our nation. It goes beyond Walmart's practices - it's also Black and Decker and hundreds of other manufacturers closing plants and moving to China, Taiwan, Mexico. It's Nike in the Phillippines.
I agree with Urchin's first viewpoint - its inherently wrong and unethical to have a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Now, try to hold that position and not be called a Socialist or Communist. Yet I have to think the founding fathers would agree with it as well.
i do too.
were i to eliminate something as a way to excercise total equality in capital, i would do away with inheritance.
reason tells me that this is where the seperation really happens.
but thats not happening anytime soon and it would be a logistical nightmare.
(not to mention that i wouldnt get squat! lol)
personally...i think that it will become an issue this century.
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Is that literally true? All people all uniformly wealthy? The highest officials, doctors, lawyers - all are equally as wealthy as say, garbage men or, IKEA clerks?
It's not literally true naturally (it's not communism even though even there it wasn't true).
But the differences between income are probably one of the lowest in the world and there aren't beggars on the streets. 80% of the population enjoys more or less middle class life. Then there are extremes but nothing like in the US. At least not that I know of.
I saw a study somewhere, can't remember where anymore.
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Scandinavian style socialism works in small geographic and homogenius population groups who are generaly willing to go along with it. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark each is about the size of a medium to small state in the United States. Your populations are smaller than California's. California can only force semi socialism by having it's Liberal power base in the 2 major coastal cities. Inland california is moderate to conservitive mostly capitolistic.
The economy of the United States is a function of 48 continental contiguos geographic areas with about 240millin people. The USSR tried socialism at the point of a gun with a larger land mass and slightly larger non homogenious population. They went broke after 70 years. Funny semi socialist california almost went broke recently.
Capitolism is not perfict and prone to abuse as is socialism. Capitolism has a redeaming factor. You can change it because profit is dynamic and changeable. If you don't like how WalMart delivers its goods and services, come up with a better more prophitable way to do the same thing. Yes and take care of the masses if you can. And the masses will beat a path to your door to give you profit.
Biggest problem with unions and socialism is who pays for them? Someone always has to bust their arse to pay for those who can't. Unions drive up the price of goods beyond their real worth to pay the $30per hr salary to a tire changer who other wise could never earn that amount on his own merit. The Union becomes the Guido and Nunzio knee breaker club in the shadows. It makes the cost of living for everyone become inflated to meet the minimum Union salary rates. Socialism winds up making the hi achivers slaves to paying the tax rates that governemnt then gives to the under achivers. No incentive to be all you can possibly be in life. Atlas shrugged and quit holding up the world.
Capitolism allows anyone if they want to, to work as hard as they want and keep a higher amount of their efforts. But the cost is simple, you have to get off your sorry arse and actually do it. And this is not fantasy or whatever smug intelectual word gaming many of you will play on it. I came to california 20 years ago, during that time I made mistakes, lost everything and became homeless. I got tired of eating garbage and filth. I worked out of it and raised myself up to working for the 3rd largest bank in the United States. I don't like starving, being sick, preyed upon by criminals or being destitute. Capitolism works if you want to work your arse off and stop whineing about social inequalities.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's not literally true naturally (it's not communism even though even there it wasn't true).
But the differences between income are probably one of the lowest in the world and there aren't beggars on the streets. 80% of the population enjoys more or less middle class life. Then there are extremes but nothing like in the US. At least not that I know of.
I saw a study somewhere, can't remember where anymore.
The Scandanavian system is very easy to do, just implement an extremely steep tax system...
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PBS ran a Frontline program on the China/WalMart connection a few months back. It should be released on dvd and promoted as much a f911. After viewing this it should be no wonder why WalMart is so cozy with the Chinese and doesn't value unions. Peasant labor is the grease in their machine. Course they have to go to countries who don't value human life or rights for that peasant labor.
Edit: ok - thats the link to the program. I love the link that includes "China, the worlds new workshop"
It should include "China, the world new SWEAT shop" and WalMart should be proud of their position as massa overseer.
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yeah tweety... like any boring and slanted PBS ( read..can't make it on their own)... Like any of their programs are gonna make it to DVD and anyone will ever watch it..
I will admit that 9/11 movie and PBS programs are about equal in unslanted honest reporting tho.
lazs
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"boring and slanted"
Lazs doesn't know what he's talking about here. If he did he'd realize how far his foot is in his mouth after comparing frontline to micheal moore. Or maybe he does and he's just trolling.
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Yea we get it - PBS is a communist plot.
If it doesn't come the the John Birch Society, its propaganda.
:rolleyes:
The scary part is he's armed...
BTW laz, if PBS DID make it on its own, it wouldn't be PBS. It would be another History, Discovery, Food, or A&E channel. Its PBS because its supported in part by viewer donations. Just thought I'd bring you up to speed on the concept of PUBLIC television.
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Yeah, WalMart is an entry level job. Most highly motivated, able-bodied, mentally active people would move on.
That doesn't excuse them from paying wages that don't allow a non-motivated or somewhat disabled person to shelter, feed and clothe himself.
You take a man's time... or buy it... you buy the only real thing he has of value. It's his LIFE.
And you tell him 28 hours a week is "full time"? That $15K is enough to feed/shelter/clothe himself and is what his lifetime is worth?
This from a company that made $7 billion dollars.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, WalMart is an entry level job. Most highly motivated, able-bodied, mentally active people would move on.
That doesn't excuse them from paying wages that don't allow a non-motivated or somewhat disabled person to shelter, feed and clothe himself.
Why not Toad? They offer a job at a certain pay and that's the offer.....nobody is forced into the job. In fact, they offer jobs that probably wouldn't exist without them.
What kind of pay does a store greeter or shelf stock person expect to make at any place, Walmart or not?
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Well..it appears that none of the employees at this store benefited from the recent attempt to unionize...
http://news.corporate.findlaw.com/ap_stories/f/1310/2-10-2005/20050210053002_31.html
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Originally posted by NUKE
nobody is forced into the job.
That's true, nobody is forced to work, they can allways starve and rely on the government to feed their children. Oh wait, the government would be doing that anyway if he took a job at walmart.
What kind of pay does a store greeter or shelf stock person expect to make at any place, Walmart or not?
A lot less than the job he used to work at before the factory was closed down because walmart boycotted it's products in favor of chinese slave labor.
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Originally posted by Suave
That's true, nobody is forced to work, they can allways starve and rely on the government to feed their children. Oh wait, the government would be doing that anyway if he took a job at walmart.
A lot less than the job he used to work at before the factory was closed down because walmart boycotted it's products in favor of chinese slave labor.
So, why just Walmart?
Why not raise federal minimum wage to 40K a year?
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The fact that they can get away with it doesn't mean it's right.
You never did anwer the question of why you enjoy subsidizing WalMart's employee expenses.
Did you read the article, Nuke? WalMart pays them so little they qualify for lots of very expensive social welfare benefits.
YOU, the taxpayer, are paying for those benefits. Because WalMart won't pay them a living wage, NUKE gets to throw some of his cash into their pocket.
Do you enjoy being played for a sucker by the largest employer in the US?
Why do they "give" their store greeters only 28 hours a week and call that "full time" Nuke?
You are aware of labor laws, hours and pay, right? The difference between "full time" and "part time" obligations for an employer?
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My main beef with walmart is that they're destroying the american economy.
They're so gigantic that if they decide to stop selling a companies products that company goes under.
So what happens is this, walmart tells rubermaid that they will sell their products to walmart at the price walmart wants to pay, or they will die. Rubermaid can't possibly produce their products for the price that walmart is willing to pay. Rubermaid collapses and closes down it's factories, tens of thousands of americans loose their jobs. Good family sustaining jobs with benefits.
Chinese buisiness come over and buy the manufacturing equipment right out of the abandoned factories and take it back to china to start producing products for walmart.
Walmart makes more money than bill gates, yet pays it's employees ****. Most of whom live in towns where walmart is the only game in town.
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I know of folks that have dealt with WalMart and ruined their lives. I think you can find some of the stories on the net.
People sell an item to Walmart, Walmart agrees to carry it. Walmart asks them to ramp up production. The business owners are smiling. They expand, go into debt to buy new equipment. When they've swallowed the hook, Bentonville starts slowly cutting the price they will pay for the item. At about the three year point, if the item is a perennial best seller, Bentonville sets up their own factory in a 3rd world country and cancesl the contract with the US manufacturer.
The business owner now has a big factory, a huge debt and no customer.
Gotta love 'em. Nuke's heroes.
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I hate NUKE. :mad:
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A bunch of large consumer product companies should form a supplier coalition, and *cut out* Walmart from handling their products.
Walmart deserves PNG status in America for its behavior.
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Originally posted by Toad
Gotta love 'em. Nuke's heroes.
I never said they were my heros.
The fact is they offer a job at a price they are willing to pay. If nobody wants to take the job, then they would have to raise the pay.
You want to take a position which would force an employer to pay a certain wage? Not just Walmart, but everyone?
What about McDonalds ( and all fast food) workers, movie theater attendents, parking lot attendents, crossing gaurds, tele-marketers, and on an on....? You want goverment tp regulate all businesses and what they pay employees and suppliers?
Why not just go communist and be done with it?
And you say I subsidize the workers? I'd say Walmart probably offers jobs that would not exist otherwise....and they probably generate a lot of tax income for the government which would not otherwise be generated.
But go ahead and blame Walmart for hiring hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise not have a job, or, if they did, would be making the same low wages anyway flippping burgers or cleaning bathrooms.
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Oh yeah.. they're REALLY helping.
Two examples of what I said:
Carolina Mills is a 75-year-old company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel-makers—half of which supply Wal-Mart. But since 2000, Carolina Mills' customers have begun to find imported clothing sold so cheaply at Wal-Mart, that Carolina Mills could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing!
Since 2000, Carolina Mills has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200.
Steve Dobbins, the CEO of Carolina Mills, told the December issue of Fast-Company magazine: "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping ourselves out of jobs" (emphasis added).
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Lovable Garments, which was founded in 1926, had, by the 1990s, become the sixth-largest producer of women's lingerie in the United States, employing 700 workers. Wal-Mart became the biggest purchaser of Lovable's goods; in 1995, Wal-Mart demanded that Lovable slash its prices to compete with cheap imports.
When Lovable indicated it could not do that, Wal-Mart illegally reneged on its contract, and outsourced the lingerie production to Ibero-America, Asia, and China. Without the Wal-Mart market, in 1998 Lovable had to close its American manufacturing facilities and fire the workers.
Stated Frank Garson, who was then Lovable's president, "Their actions to pulverize people are unnecessary. Wal-Mart chewed us up and spit us out."
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They're the nation's largest employer. About a million employees. You remember any of your history about the early monopolies? They are essentially setting the price of low-end labor all by themselves. and there aren't many options. It's essentially the same technique they use on their suppliers.
The study says they COST government far more than the government receives in taxes. These guys are real good at getting tax incentives (read "no taxes) from local governments. There's stories of how they do that out there too. You won't give us tax abatements? Fine, we'll set up just outside you city limits and put your in-town businesses out of business.
You really ought to spend 3-4 hours researching WallyMart's business practices with employees, suppliers and local governments.
They're destroying the America you grew up in so you can have cheap Chinese pliers for $1.99,
Enjoy.
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh yeah.. they're REALLY helping.
Two examples of what I said:
Carolina Mills is a 75-year-old company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel-makers—half of which supply Wal-Mart. But since 2000, Carolina Mills' customers have begun to find imported clothing sold so cheaply at Wal-Mart, that Carolina Mills could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing!
Since 2000, Carolina Mills has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200.
Steve Dobbins, the CEO of Carolina Mills, told the December issue of Fast-Company magazine: "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping ourselves out of jobs" (emphasis added).
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Lovable Garments, which was founded in 1926, had, by the 1990s, become the sixth-largest producer of women's lingerie in the United States, employing 700 workers. Wal-Mart became the biggest purchaser of Lovable's goods; in 1995, Wal-Mart demanded that Lovable slash its prices to compete with cheap imports.
When Lovable indicated it could not do that, Wal-Mart illegally reneged on its contract, and outsourced the lingerie production to Ibero-America, Asia, and China. Without the Wal-Mart market, in 1998 Lovable had to close its American manufacturing facilities and fire the workers.
Stated Frank Garson, who was then Lovable's president, "Their actions to pulverize people are unnecessary. Wal-Mart chewed us up and spit us out."
Look, the first example is just free market. Are you telling me you want to make it illegal to buy from cheap foreign suppliers? This type of thing has been happening for decades.
The second example is the same, unless Walmart broke a legal contract, in which case I'm sure they lost the lawsuit which followed, right?
The ecomomy is changing world-wide and it's not Walmart's fault. China is the worlds workshop and it's going to effect everyone.
Toad, you sound like you want a protectionist trade policy or something.
And Walmart is not the only player.
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I am not trying to condone WalMart's business practices, but...
...just how much do you think a cashier should make? How much should a janitor make? a stockboy?
Do these low skill jobs merit anual pay increases?
Does a guy sweeping the floor everynight get so much better at his job that his "actual" value to the company is increased on an anual basis?
IMO, unions reward mediocrity in the vast majority of cases.
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Nuke,
Walmart is accelerating the process at an incredible rate. The speed at which they are doing this is part of the problem. It takes time to change here and Walmart is seeing to it that our businesses don't get time to become more productive.
Furious,
Walmart employs about a million people. You get one employer that large, it sets the rate for all the rest.
How much should someone get paid for giving you their lifetime?
I'd say that it'd be fair if basic subsistence needs were met with the pay from a 40 hour week.
Of course... Walmart hires very few full time (40 hour/week) employees. And anyone with a knowledge of full time/ part time labor laws knows why.
They're creating an America where most of our kids are not going to do very well.
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Furious,
Walmart employs about a million people. You get one employer that large, it sets the rate for all the rest.
How much should someone get paid for giving you their lifetime?
I'd say that it'd be fair if basic subsistence needs were met with the pay from a 40 hour week.
Of course... Walmart hires very few full time (40 hour/week) employees. And anyone with a knowledge of full time/ part time labor laws knows why.
They're creating an America where most of our kids are not going to do very well."
like i said before, it employs people who are either semi retired, or living with there parents/spouse...they dont NEED a high rate of pay, nor do they deserve it...and people do have other options if there skillless, theres always work as a labourer who pay 11+ bucks a hour, and hire full time...and with minimal skills people can get hired as equipment operaters etc. which pay 15+ bucks an hour...
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Originally posted by Furious
I am not trying to condone WalMart's business practices, but...
...just how much do you think a cashier should make? How much should a janitor make? a stockboy?
Do these low skill jobs merit anual pay increases?
Does a guy sweeping the floor everynight get so much better at his job that his "actual" value to the company is increased on an anual basis?
IMO, unions reward mediocrity in the vast majority of cases.
I believe traditional middle class jobs deserve traditional middle class wages.
My company ships United Parcel Service rather than Fed Ex because UPS is Union. I shop at Raley's rather than Food For Less because Raley's clerks are Union (UFCW). My underwear is Haines cause they're Union Made, my car is a Taurus cause it's Union Made,and in fact I make efforts to support those workers I consider my peers, because our middle class is rapidly shrinking in America.
Those of you who admire what WalMart does to a Community should come up here and have a look- their parking lot gets more police calls than any area of town cause they allow derelects free camping. They also demanded (and got) almost free land to build their store, bought by the City from a developer for far more than it was worth.
Some day those of you who think Wal-Mart is a good thing, and we no longer need a middle class, will have your own jobs outsourced or eliminated...then you yourselves can start an exciting career as a part time Wal-Mart employee working for minimum wage with no benefits. Me, I'll continue to support the Middle Class of America and treat my employees well.
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Pretty much what Air said.
We won't solve it here and I won't be alive in Walmart's America 30 years from now.
Some of you will.
Enjoy.
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Guys, I know what you are saying and I know you are compassionate for the people who have less and struggle to get by. I feel exactly the same.
My point is that Walmart is not the problem. They are not the only place to work for a chitty wage and they won't be the last. There will always be low wages for the people who do those type of jobs, and it's not Walmart's fault.
What's the difference between McDonalds wages and Walmart wages by the way? Why no tears for the McDonalds workers?
And Airhead, why does supporting a union business help more than supporting a non-union business?
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Because McDonald's still has competition and WalMart does not? What if McD paid .10 more than Wally? That'd get them employees right? Would the employees be at a decent subsistence level?
How does this compare to McDonald's?
With 1.4 million employees worldwide, Wal-Mart's workforce is now larger than that of GM, Ford, GE, and IBM combined. At $258 billion in 2003, Wal-Mart's annual revenues are 2 percent of US GDP, and eight times the size of Microsoft's. In fact, when ranked by its revenues, Wal-Mart is the world's largest corporation.
You wonder why entry level wages are not at a decent subsistence level even if a guy works a 60 hour week?
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Originally posted by Toad
Because McDonald's still has competition and WalMart does not?
How does this compare to McDonald's?
You wonder why entry level wages are not at a decent subsistence level even if a guy works a 60 hour week?
You're telling me Walmart has no competiton? How come I am able to avoid ever shopping at Walmart?
Target, Kmart, Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, any grocery store.......I never go to Walmarts and there is one about 2 miles from me.
And Toad, guess why I don't buy stuff at Walmart. It's becuase the only time I remember buying anything from them, it was a crap air compressor made in China.
Free market. I chose to pay a little more ( in some cases, not all) and get better stuff somewhere else.
And you confuse the size of Walmart to the skill required to work at one as compaired to a McDonalds, where you'd make similar pay and have just as chitty a job.
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Like I said, it won't be settled here.
If you don't want to take the time to really examine Walmart and what it's doing to not only the US economy but other economies as well, I'm not going to worry about it.
Just remember that anytime one entity gets that kind of power it's rarely a good thing........ for anyone or any nation or any any.
Sometimes folks have to re-learn their history the hard way.
Enjoy.
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Toad,
Have you thought about how you would address the problem if it was up to you? What do you think of Montana's proposed tax on Walmart?
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I don't think Nuke understands the national economical impact of wal-mart's unethical practices.
He's stuck on the entry level employment wage thing.
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Oboe, not really.
I know I won't affect it in one way or the other. They are brutal competitors on so many levels. I've got a brother-in-law that's made multi-millions in commercial real estate and a son that works for a mult-multi-millionaire in commercial real estate.
Neither one of those guys wants to touch WalMart.
Suave, I think some of these rah-rah entry level wage guys don't understand that their children will be in competition with entry level wage workers in countries where .25/day is the entry level wage.
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Originally posted by Suave
I don't think Nuke understands the national economical impact of wal-mart's unethical practices.
He's stuck on the entry level employment wage thing.
Unethical practices? Define ethical.
Walmart is not forcing one person to sell to them or to work for them. And they pay wages similar to any other simliar job offered anywhere else.
I don't think you understand that it's a global economy and places like China offer cheap goods that cannot be created for the same cost in America.
It's not Walmart's fault that they are able to but ultra cheap products from China and make huge profits.
And Walmart does not hurt the US economy in any way.
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Originally posted by NUKE
And Walmart does not hurt the US economy in any way.
Toad I think we've found the source of the malfunction.
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Originally posted by Toad
Oboe, not really.
Suave, I think some of these rah-rah entry level wage guys don't understand that their children will be in competition with entry level wage workers in countries where .25/day is the entry level wage.
Yeah, and that is somehow Walmart's fault?
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Originally posted by Suave
Toad I think we've found the source of the malfunction.
real bright answer.
Walmart is responsible for 2 % of the US's GDP. Tell me how that hurts the US ecomomy. Not to mention all the cheap goods they offer people.....people that need to stretch their dollar.
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When I was selling concrete products, I sold them for less than a year. They were a hassle to deal with both on the front end and the delivery end and they paid 90 days on 30 day invoices. I am not talking one store, either, I am talking Central Texas. They were not happy about it, and that is when I quit shopping there (early 90s). However, I did sell a watermelon load of block to BUILD Walmarts.
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Nothing unethical about profiteering from slave labor and putting tens of thousands of americans out of work and closing inumerable companies that pay civilized wages.
Oh but that doesn't hurt the american economy.
Fine, keep giving your money to the super wealthy sweat shop owners, and keep paying their employees with your tax dollars. I wonder how many american jobs were lost this week because they couldn't compete with slave labor. But hey, as long as it's not hurting the american economy.
What is "it" that you're refering to that is a global economy btw?
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Originally posted by NUKE
real bright answer.
Walmart is responsible for 2 % of the US's GDP. Tell me how that hurts the US ecomomy. Not to mention all the cheap goods they offer people.....people that need to stretch their dollar.
Yeah especially since they lost their job of 20 years because some company wanted to buy sweatshop production instead, and have to take a job at walmart.
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Originally posted by Suave
Nothing unethical about profiteering from slave labor and putting tens of thousands of americans out of work and closing inumerable companies that pay civilized wages.
Oh but that doesn't hurt the american economy.
Fine, keep giving your money to the super wealthy sweat shop owners, and keep paying their employees with your tax dollars. I wonder how many american jobs were lost this week because they couldn't compete with slave labor. But hey, as long as it's not hurting the american economy.
What is "it" that you're refering to that is a global economy btw?
Again, not Walmart's fault that China offers cheap goods.
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Originally posted by Suave
Yeah especially since they lost their job of 20 years because some company wanted to buy sweatshop production instead, and have to take a job at walmart.
I don't think Walmart forces anyone to work for them.
And if you have a job for 20 years and can only qualify for a job at Walmart, you have just wasted about 20 years of your life.
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Again you're stuck on the "if they don't like the wages they don't have to work for wal-mart".
Man Nuke, you either understand it but can't admit it. Or you don't get it.
No, sweat shops and prison labor camps are not wal-mart's fault.
Taking tens of thousands of jobs from americans and contributing to the decline of the standard of living by forcing the manufacturing sector to compete with sweat shop labor is their fault.
Replacing paid labor with sweatshop and prison labor is not good for an economy.
The owners of wal-mart are profiting by driving down wage standards, government subsidized employee pool, and utilizing sweatshop and slave labor.
[sarcasm]Clearly ethical. And beneficial for everyone.[/sarcasm]
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Originally posted by NUKE
Again, not Walmart's fault that China offers cheap goods.
Nuke, that is just one of the statements that shows you have no clue how Walmart operates.
None. As in clueless.
And it's not like the links haven't been posted for you.
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Originally posted by Suave
The owners of wal-mart are profiting by driving down wage standards, government subsidized employee pool, and utilizing sweatshop and slave labor.
[sarcasm]Clearly ethical. And beneficial for everyone.[/sarcasm]
How is Walmart driving down wage standards? Has the wage paid to a standard store clerk or stckboy been lowered because of Walmart?
I'd say no. Before Walmart, did store clerks and stockboys make a lot more money than they do now?
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Originally posted by Toad
Nuke, that is just one of the statements that shows you have no clue how Walmart operates.
None. As in clueless.
And it's not like the links haven't been posted for you.
Toad, tell me what your solution is. You say it's basically Walmart that is ruining the US. I'd say that's a laughable statement.
Even so, what is your solution to the Walmart "problem" ?????
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I've read all these posts, and if NUKE is reading them, it appears that nothing that contradicts his predetermined view sinks in.
The one thing I will say in Walmart's defense is, what they are doing is not illegal, right? But certainly unethical, and certainly harming the economic futures of millions of US citizens. So bully for them. If it wasn't them doing it, it'd be some one else. Perhaps the problem is not their behavior, but the fact the we ALLOW their behavior?
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Originally posted by oboe
I've read all these posts, and if NUKE is reading them, it appears that nothing that contradicts his predetermined view sinks in.
The one thing I will say in Walmart's defense is, what they are doing is not illegal, right? But certainly unethical, and certainly harming the economic futures of millions of US citizens. So bully for them. If it wasn't them doing it, it'd be some one else. Perhaps the problem is not their behavior, but the fact the we ALLOW their behavior?
My point has been that Walmart is not the problem.
And I do not have a predetermined view, I have my view......not predetermined at all.
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Laugh now Nuke. You won't be so jolly15 years down the road.
My solution? Never said I had one. What I said is that it's not a good thing for one company to have the power in the marketplace that Walmart has now.
You obviously don't read the links to examples of what we're talking about so it really isn't worth putting more information in front of you.
Just enjoy your chuckles now. Later, when you're not feeling so jolly when you see a WalMart sign you can remember this thread.
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Toad, you are unreal. You think that Walmart is going to bring the US economy down?
Man, you went off the deep end.
Ever think about what REALLY will bring the US economy down? Illegal aliens.
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If that's true NUKE, then perhaps we agree. But I understood your position to be that there is no problem, inspite of all the evidence that Toad and others have presented here.
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Originally posted by Toad
Laugh now Nuke. You won't be so jolly15 years down the road.
My solution? Never said I had one. What I said is that it's not a good thing for one company to have the power in the marketplace that Walmart has now.
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Acually, you started this by saying that Walmart should pay higher wages. Right? But, why just Walmart?
You mean to say that you have no idea on how to solve the "problem" ? You can't even offer one idea?
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LOL.
Federal officials raided Wal-Marts across the nation on October 23, 2003, and proceeded to arrest any illegal immigrants working at the stores. Federal agents arrested illegal aliens from several countries including Mexico and Eastern Europe.
The officials made more than 250 total arrests at 61 stores in 21 states around the United States. “Operation Rollback,” as it was called, began at 4am Eastern Standard Time and lasted for approximately five hours. The arrested workers had just finished their night cleaning shifts when the arrests took place.
"None so blind as those who will not see!".
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Originally posted by oboe
If that's true NUKE, then perhaps we agree. But I understood your position to be that there is no problem, inspite of all the evidence that Toad and others have presented here.
I have said that Walmart is not the problem more than once. It's a global economy and Walmart is playing the global market for all they can.
They offer cheap goods that cannot be made in America for the same cost. They buy cheap imported goods instead.
They offer a job for low wages........similar pay for any job of it's kind. They make huge profits.
Nothing wrong with Walmart. Pleanty changing in the global economy.
Toad seems to think Walmart is the cause, I do not.
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Wal-mart would import chinese political prisoners on a work release program if they thought they could get away with it.
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Oh, I could come up with some ideas.
But what would be the point? You don't read the other information folks have handed you on a silver platter.
Nuke, I'm so sorry but I guess I've changed. I used to be willing to engage in debate with most anyone.
Lately though people that are knowingly intellectually dishonest in their posts, people that refuse to educate themselves to at least some extent on the opposite side of the issue in question, people that just post to stir the pot, people that post outrageously just to draw a reaction, etc., etc., just aren't worth my time.
I am not saying you're any or all of those. I'm just saying......... I don't want to waste my time.
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL.
"None so blind as those who will not see!".
Guess what? The construction and agricultural fields have FAR more illegal aliens taking skilled labor jobs away from Americans.....not just Walmart watermelon jobs, but construction and labor jobs that used to pay good money.
But, you see Walmart as the US economys downfall. More power to you.
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Thank you for making my point so well. You've just validated both of my two previous posts.
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Toad, be simple minded then.
Go ahead and point to Walmart and say that they are the reason the US economy and way of life is going away. I say you are rediculous to make that claim.
I say that Walmart is not the problem. The global economy and cheap foreign labor are the "problem"
Walmart offers jobs and pay at competitive rates.....otherwise nobody would be working there.
Walmart also buys cheap foreign goods, which hurts American companies that can't offer the same price......but that has nothing to do with Walmart and is not Walmart's problem.
You also stated that you think Walmart needs to pay their employees more. I ask, why?
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Toad it's not for Nuke's sake. Threads like these are meaningfull in that they may enlighten the readers.
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Suave, it's not worth my time anymore.
Experience is the best teacher, it's just rarely the cheapest.
He'll learn.
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Originally posted by NUKE
real bright answer.
Walmart is responsible for 2 % of the US's GDP. Tell me how that hurts the US ecomomy. Not to mention all the cheap goods they offer people.....people that need to stretch their dollar.
Which part of the GDP?
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Originally posted by NUKE
How is Walmart driving down wage standards? Has the wage paid to a standard store clerk or stckboy been lowered because of Walmart?
I'd say no. Before Walmart, did store clerks and stockboys make a lot more money than they do now?
Man you are really stuck on that wal-mart wage thing.
Before wal-mart finishes a company off, the companies decrease the pay of their employees and curtail benefit programs so that the company can afford to provide wal-mart with the merchandise at the price that wal-mart tells them to do it. It's a slow death, employees sustain pay cuts, then they lose health benefits and retirement benefits, then finally they lose their job. US companies cannot legally and ethically compete with slave labor.
Had you been paying attention to the information provided to you, you would've known that.
By utilization wal-mart is a proponent of sweatshop and gulag labor.
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Originally posted by Suave
Man you are really stuck on that wal-mart wage thing.
Before wal-mart finishes a company off, the companies decrease the pay of their employees and curtail benefit programs so that the company can afford to provide wal-mart with the merchandise at the price that wal-mart tells them to do it. It's a slow death, employees sustain pay cuts, then they lose health benefits and retirement benefits, then finally they lose their job. US companies cannot legally and ethically compete with slave labor.
And Walmart does not make the supplier do anything or cut any wages. They can't make products as cheap as China can. Why is that Walmart's fault?
Get a clue. Welcome to the global economy.
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NUKE, do you see a problem with the global economy and the US standard of living?
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Originally posted by oboe
NUKE, do you see a problem with the global economy and the US standard of living?
yes
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>>Again, not Walmart's fault that China offers cheap goods.
<<
China offers peasant labor and yes, it is WalMarts fault for buying and encouraging peasant labor.
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Originally posted by NUKE
And Walmart does not make the supplier do anything or cut any wages.
Yes, they do, they coerce them into selling their goods at the price wal-mart wants to pay. Godamn. Pay attention.
They can't make products as cheap as China can. Why is that Walmart's fault?
wtf :confused:
I thought I allready told you that it's not wal-marts fault that slave labor exists. Although they are responsible for contributing to it's longevity by utilizing it. Which btw utilizing slave labor is unethical, I know you don't think so but I'm telling you, honestly, it is.
Get a clue. Welcome to the global economy. [/B]
Yeah, ok. And then maybe I'll talk to the hand, or.. whatever.
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Er, Nuke, why do you think China can produce products so cheap?
A. They purchase resources at bargain basement prices.
B. They seek less of a return than American companies
C. Their workers are peasants that consider it normal to work eighty hours for a comfty dirt floor shanty and some gruel.
Companies under the protection of the United States must be held criminaly responsible for the exploitation of child labor and slave/peasant labor - PERIOD. Its a criminal offense against man and civilized society.
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modern unions = the robber barons of the Industrial Revolution
One only has to look at the UK to see what unions will do if they abuse their power.
And yes I have been a member of a union > UAW.
If one is on Social Assistance (Welfare) here in Ontario, your monthly 'assets' cannot be more than $5000 and that includes your car and Welfare check.
In Ontario, one cannot suppliment your Welfare by working but in Quebec you can.
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this thread goes fast...
Yes, I think PBS is way left of center... No I don't trust em...Yes I know it is paid for by public donations and is it not also paid for with taxpayer money?
Wallie world... guys.. you are saying that it pays less than the amount needed to qulaify for some benifiets... Ok.. so you would rather pay the whole welfare of these unemployables rather than just some of it? I know some of the emplyees through AA and my daughters friends... without Wall mart they would be doing nothing except maybe a burglary or ten while we were at work. We would be paying it all instead of a portion... think of it as workfare.
Cnina? are those workers being forced to work? why don't they quit and starve? Or... get a better job?
Ambition? How much ambition does it take to work 3 days a week at Wallie worlkd and then take a job at the local burger place or deliver pizza for another 2 or three? How bout going to school?
If their bussiness practices are so bad and so well known in the small bussiness world.... then people will either quit doing bussines with them or get better contracts.
Mom and Pop stores... I subsidized those crooks for years... they paid crap wages and extorted 2 times what every crap product they sold was worth out of me. I still paid welfare for their employees who worked full time and never got ahead in 20 years.
lazs
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and tweety... companies from America should be responsible for obeying the laws of that country that they are dealing with.
would you rather the child worked or starved? a fair question I think... Wallmart pulls out. the chinese family that was living off it now does what? begs? goes to the chinese for help? Applies for American welfare benifiets? Or... is it now better because you don't have to see it?
lazs
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>>would you rather the child worked or starved?<<
That wasn't the the issue. The issue was exploitation of child labor - read exploiting children. If the child was being exploited in another manner, would that be cool also if the child wasn't starving? I don't care if its labor exploitation or sexual exploitation of children, ANY American based company should be held criminally responsible in the United States if they have a mechanism in place to profit from it, and I don't care what the laws are in the specific country its occuring in.
If its proven inspections by US company reps are done in a manner to alert sweat shop owners in time to move the children out, those company reps need to go to jail for aiding child exploitation.
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Originally posted by Suave
Yes, they do, they coerce them into selling their goods at the price wal-mart wants to pay. Godamn. Pay attention.
wtf :confused:
I thought I allready told you that it's not wal-marts fault that slave labor exists. Although they are responsible for contributing to it's longevity by utilizing it. Which btw utilizing slave labor is unethical, I know you don't think so but I'm telling you, honestly, it is.
Yeah, ok. And then maybe I'll talk to the hand, or.. whatever.
As much as you jump up and down and stomp your feet, it's still not going to change the fact that Walmart does not force a supplier to do anything or sell anything to them.
And Walmart buys goods from China, a communist backwards country. Lots of companies buy from China. Do you want to cut off trade with China? Oh, I forgot.....it's just all Walmarts fault.
Are you like Toad and believe that Walmart alone is taking down the US economy and has zero competition?