Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Raider179 on February 11, 2005, 12:54:40 PM
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This is a little nuts if its true.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453413.05625.html
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Did I understand this correctly? Israel provoked Syrian AF by buzzing Latakia and then happily engaged and destroyed two Mig29s. Something seems way off here…
If this is true and Syria acquires S-300PMU2, no more buzzing passes for F16, or in fact anything else that fly in 200km range, including airlines.
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Thats the way I read it too.
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Well, way I see it nowadays : Israeli is aggressor with better hardware and US blessing. They pretty much do anything they want and if things get ugly they draw WW2 holocaust card and wave it to everyone...
In my book they are doing the same on those *******s over the area..
About time someone would give back with SIMILAR and "fair(..???!!!)" methods , meaning splashing F16 or two with AA missiles.. not bombing innocents!
edit:hmmm rag and head censored when connected...
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its not the plane, its the pilot and the training, discipline and aggresiveness of said pilot that will defeat the opponent.
The latest and greatest hardware is worthless if the guy flying it is a dork.
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mig 29's are all show and no go.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Well, way I see it nowadays : Israeli is aggressor with better hardware and US blessing. They pretty much do anything they want and if things get ugly they draw WW2 holocaust card and wave it to everyone...
In my book they are doing the same on those *******s over the area..
About time someone would give back with SIMILAR and "fair(..???!!!)" methods , meaning splashing F16 or two with AA missiles.. not bombing innocents!
edit:hmmm rag and head censored when connected...
The lack of historical understanding and the complete lack of any realization of the situation Israel is faced with day to day in this response is purely astonishing. Or is it...
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Originally posted by Yeager
its not the plane, its the pilot and the training, discipline and aggresiveness of said pilot that will defeat the opponent.
The latest and greatest hardware is worthless if the guy flying it is a dork.
Sounds like they have something in common with the average La7 pilot in the MA
:aok
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F-16 superior to Mig-29s? Yeah right! Without a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a small to modest advantage. With a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a huge advantage.
Someone dig up some of the training reports of USAF F-16s vs Luftwaffe Mig-29s.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
F-16 superior to Mig-29s? Yeah right! Without a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a small to modest advantage. With a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a huge advantage.
Someone dig up some of the training reports of USAF F-16s vs Luftwaffe Mig-29s.
we are not talking training here, we talking real life shoot em down.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Well, way I see it nowadays : Israeli is aggressor with better hardware and US blessing. They pretty much do anything they want and if things get ugly they draw WW2 holocaust card and wave it to everyone...
The way I see it is some people are still mad that Hitler didnt finish the job, but they hope the Arabs will. They quickly decry the holocaust like it never happened and laugh with glee at every suicide bomber.
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Exactly.
The Israelis aren't attacking the syrians just for the hell of it. The Syrians are supplying the different terrorist organizations that attack Israel. They really don't attempt to hide it either.
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Originally posted by Krusher
The way I see it is some people are still mad that Hitler didnt finish the job, but they hope the Arabs will. They quickly decry the holocaust like it never happened and laugh with glee at every suicide bomber.
Way I see it is that some people happily keep supporting a oppressive regime which is occupying areas which belong to other sovereign countries and which is actively using apartheid.
They're as good as nazies were; they think that other races are inferior and that's it's ok to practise "Lebensraum" policy, occupy areas other people are already living, drive them out from their homes and build settlements to the land which doesn't belong to them.
They surely learned well the lessons nazies gave them 60 years ago.
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Originally posted by Russian
If this is true and Syria acquires S-300PMU2
If i read correctly, they would like to have S400 :cool:
Im not sure if russia ever exported S400.
Anyway S300 is quite cool toy as well.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Someone dig up some of the training reports of USAF F-16s vs Luftwaffe Mig-29s.
Dunno... but i saw Luftwaffe Migs training with Mirages and F18 in Swiss few years ago... it was quite :cool:
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LOL...
Jewish Task Force (http://www.jtf.org/)... Almost as good as http://www.masada2000.org
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Originally posted by SunTracker
F-16 superior to Mig-29s? Yeah right! Without a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a small to modest advantage. With a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a huge advantage.
Someone dig up some of the training reports of USAF F-16s vs Luftwaffe Mig-29s.
Are we reading the same article? The following is from a IIRC the articles correctly. Too lazy to search for it.
On paper it looks to be a big advantage to the MiG29. Fights are rarely fought on paper.
The German MiG29 pilots found that out. They expected to completely wax the F16's and that didn't happen.
F16's advantages over the MiG29:
1) Automated weapons system, no need to look at the instrument panel to flip a few switches in order to fire a missile. Having to look at the instrument panel instead of your adversary is a big disadvantage in a dog fight. The F16 pilot keeps his eyes on the adversary while viewing weapons system data in perfect focus on the HUD.
2) Much better views from the cockpit.
3) BVR viewing of the other aircraft. MiG29 doesn't have it.
4) Seating ergonomics and flight control. F16 pilot is in a 40 degree incline giving a better high-G load fighting capability. The pilot's right arm gets support from the right armrest while using the stick. Throttle on the left side. The F16's pilot can sustain 9+G turn, the Mig29 pilot can't.
5) Better, more responsive engines. The F16's engines have ten times the length of service 4000 as opposed to 400 hrs between overhauls.
6) Better maneuverability over 200kts up to? (I don't recall what the upper limit was).
7) Better avionics.
MiG29's advantages over the F16:
1) Helmet mounted sight and vector thrusted missile system.
40 degree cone firing solution.
2) Better low speed maneuverability under 200kts.
I also recall watching on Wings, that the MiG29s were basically handbuilt requiring handfitting the panels to the airframe. Basically makes each plane a custom built aircraft where most panels are not interchangable from plane to plane.
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Check out this thread http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-683-start-0.html
It has links to articles, videos, and commentary from F-16 and Mig-29 pilots.
The Mig-29 is more maneuverable than the F-16, having an alpha limit of 45 degrees compared to the 16's 25 degrees. It is also faster. The helmet mounted sight makes all the difference in the world. The F-16 must get the Mig in a 15 degree cone in order to fire on it. The mig can engage at up to 45 degrees.
The Migs radar allows for passive tracking also. Blasting your radar all the time makes you a huge target.
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Here's the article I read (ten years old though).
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html)
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this entire thread is the biggest waste of cyberspace i have ever saw..
not to mention lada&staga constant blind hatred towards israel.
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This was a fairly close engagement. Sidewinder with about 18 mile range
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-9-specs.htm
And the python 4 is about 12-15 miles.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/python4.htm
Not sure what the 29s were armed with but they should have at least had a version of the R-27R1 with a range of 40+km
They should not have been shot down. Manuevering is only good for missile evasion these days. Not a lot of dogfighting in the conventional sense of it. Mostly BVR.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
this entire thread is the biggest waste of cyberspace i have ever saw..
not to mention lada&staga constant blind hatred towards israel.
What is the score to date any way? Arab Air Forces 0 Israeli Air Force 450.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
this entire thread is the biggest waste of cyberspace i have ever saw..
not to mention lada&staga constant blind hatred towards israel.
It goes way beyond just hatred for a state, it is blatant anti-semitism. I'm not sure how, but somewhere in the past half century it became the rage to hate the Jew once again... or maybe people never really stopped. I guess most people don't realize what would happen if Israel wasn't as strong as she is. The Arab world would sweep in and kill every one of you, probably with the support of all the "enlightened" intellectuals who spew hate against Israel every day from college campuses and other mediums. God knows they've tried it and thankfully you guys kicked their collective arses... not just once but a couple times :aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
Not sure what the 29s were armed with but they should have at least had a version of the R-27R1 with a range of 40+km
They should not have been shot down. Manuevering is only good for missile evasion these days. Not a lot of dogfighting in the conventional sense of it. Mostly BVR.
The R-27 medium-range missile is a component of the MiG-29 armament. In its overall characteristics the R-27R is generally comparable to the the American AIM-7M Sparrow missile, which it is said to surpasse it in certain combat capabilities. Several versions of this missile have been produced in Russia with infrared, semi-active and active radar guidance. The AA-10 Alamo-C has a range of 130 km, while other variants have a maximum range of between 70 to 170 kilometers.
http://www.fas.org/ (http://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp)
The link has so much info on current military technology from around the world. Do a bit of searching and you can find out for yourself which you think would be the better aircraft. I think this paragraph sums up the aircraft.
The MiG-29 has a few advantages over its more electronically advanced American counterparts. At about 40 miles apart, the American planes have the advantage because of avionics. At 10 miles the advantage is turning to the MiG. At five miles out, because of the MiG weapons sight and better maneuverability, the advantage is to the MiG. The weapons sight is a helmet-mounted system that allows the missile to follow the line of sight of the pilot's helmet. Where the pilot looks is where it goes.
What has to be taken into account with modern aircraft more so than their performance is the avonics package and especially Electronic Warfare. I will say from personal experience that hands down the U.S. has the best ECM in the world.
Its hard to hit what you cant see!
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I'm just curious but what is the MiG-29s pass/fail rate against US made military fighters in recent wars?
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Originally posted by john9001
mig 29's are all show and no go.
The above words are not true.
As you can see from the original article, it is not clear who engaged who, or who attacked who.
It can easily be an Israeli provocation, a lure to get those MiGs up in the air for shooting practice.
If there were no Israeli-Syrian dogfights for a decade, the Syrian pilots would not expect to be
fired upon.
So, actually this piece of information is a not fine example of propagandistic disinformation. It's a little bit too obvious that somebody is trying to paint a nice picture out of aging F-16s (even with all their modernizations). Looks like those Israeli peaceniks trying to convince the wider Israeli circles that Israel still has the AirForce superior to other countries in that neighbourhood. :D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
F-16 superior to Mig-29s? Yeah right! Without a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a small to modest advantage. With a helmet mounted sight, the Mig-29 has a huge advantage.
Someone dig up some of the training reports of USAF F-16s vs Luftwaffe Mig-29s.
I believe even without deep digging that a well-trained pilot in MiG-29 is a much greater threat than the same well-trained pilot in F-16.
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Originally posted by kevykev56
The R-27 medium-range missile is a component of the MiG-29 armament. In its overall characteristics the R-27R is generally comparable to the the American AIM-7M Sparrow missile, which it is said to surpasse it in certain combat capabilities. Several versions of this missile have been produced in Russia with infrared, semi-active and active radar guidance. The AA-10 Alamo-C has a range of 130 km, while other variants have a maximum range of between 70 to 170 kilometers.
http://www.fas.org/ (http://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp)
The link has so much info on current military technology from around the world. Do a bit of searching and you can find out for yourself which you think would be the better aircraft. I think this paragraph sums up the aircraft.
The MiG-29 has a few advantages over its more electronically advanced American counterparts. At about 40 miles apart, the American planes have the advantage because of avionics. At 10 miles the advantage is turning to the MiG. At five miles out, because of the MiG weapons sight and better maneuverability, the advantage is to the MiG. The weapons sight is a helmet-mounted system that allows the missile to follow the line of sight of the pilot's helmet. Where the pilot looks is where it goes.
What has to be taken into account with modern aircraft more so than their performance is the avonics package and especially Electronic Warfare. I will say from personal experience that hands down the U.S. has the best ECM in the world.
Its hard to hit what you cant see!
Aha, now I can see what the Syrian pilots did not expect.
Two Israeli F-16s when back in the international air space over the Mediterranean (40 miles apart from the enemy) fired at two Syrian MiG-29s and successfully brought them down to the sea bottom. Both Syrian pilots survived thanks to the amazing safety of MiG-29 catapult system.
This is how that article should have been written for understanding by lay men. :D
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Originally posted by genozaur
I believe even without deep digging that a well-trained pilot in MiG-29 is a much greater threat than the same well-trained pilot in F-16.
The F16 is going to have a greater range to see and shoot the enemy. The Avionics are far superior. And if the Mig does get to fire his missle the Electronic Countermeasures onboard are far superior than the Mig. This fight would be all BVR and maneuverability would not even be an issue.
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To sit here and debate this subject is amusing. You can debate all day on what happenend in this excersize or that excersize but it will get you nowhere. You can bring up profiles on capabilities but the one thing that no one here can account for is what is not told to the public. That goes for both the MiG-29 and the F-16. There are so many systems capabilities on both sides of the fence that aren't made public that unless they meet in a war time situation you will never know who's better or not. There is no way to say this ones better or this ones better. It's just not possible.
The only thing that can be analyzed is engagements that have already happenend. Even then these won't tell the whole story from both sides. During Kosovo the MiG-29s that were shot down all supposedly had some failure or another. Did these planes actually have avionics issues as some have reported?
These aircraft and their capabilities are constantly advancing. The F-16 will end up having a Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System just like the F-15s are getting. They will also be getting Link 16 just as the F-15s have. ECM capabilities will keep advancing and so will the avionics packages that go with them. The testing world for combat aircraft never stops. They are always looking to make systems better. So again unless these aircraft come into a real world situation and one dies you'll never know for sure and even then it won't tell you the whole story.
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All I can say is that the Mig-29 and the F-16 are very good looking planes.
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Doesnt matter who has what advantage on paper or in training.
Cause in a real life fight (the ones that matter most) 2 Mig29's got thrashed and trashed by F16's
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Originally posted by kevykev56
The F16 is going to have a greater range to see and shoot the enemy. The Avionics are far superior. And if the Mig does get to fire his missle the Electronic Countermeasures onboard are far superior than the Mig. This fight would be all BVR and maneuverability would not even be an issue.
Looks like you don't even need that poor F-16 as a fighter. It has become just a missile range extension tool. Congratulation on a new type of weaponry. :D
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I'd accept either as a present
Daniel
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Doesnt matter who has what advantage on paper or in training.
Cause in a real life fight (the ones that matter most) 2 Mig29's got thrashed and trashed by F16's
DRED, where did you get the idea that there was any fight ? Two MiG-29s WERE SHOT DOWN.
No details.
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US planes are the best looking overall.
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F16s vulched the MiG-29s :) Well, the F16s were already over Syria, it seems that te MiGs were scrambled to intercept. I would guess that the F16s already had their radar pointing at the nearest airbases anticipating an interception. If the MiGs were already airbourne when engaged by the F16s then the MiGs were probably at a disadvantage of having to ID the aircraft as enemy before engagement. Anyone know Syrian ROE? Whereas the F16s knew straight away that it was going to be a Syrian aircraft intercepting them; no chance of friendly fire.
BTW I think Israel are taking the p1$$; they look for trouble and then when they get it they say they're being picked on.
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Yeah but don't forget they are the "victims" so they get the "Get out from jail free" card = At SC the US will use its Veto.
Like always.
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Originally posted by genozaur
DRED, where did you get the idea that there was any fight ? Two MiG-29s WERE SHOT DOWN.
No details.
Ok you have a point there.
Curious though. IRL how many F16's have been "Shot down" by Mig 29's?..In total...ever?
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Originally posted by NUKE
US planes are the best looking overall.
I dont know about that... F-15 is a great looking plane, F-16 is pretty, F-18 is ugly and the F-22 just puts the smurfy factor way up.
Paintjobs got you beat hands down
(http://www.globalaircraft.org/photos/planephotos/su-27_3.jpg)
(http://www.machtres.com/bb%20su37-1.JPG)
(http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aigledefer/Images/Avions/Su35/su35_2.jpg)
(http://www.greendevils.pl/technika_wojskowa/lotnictwo/mig-29/mig_29_3.jpg)
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Originally posted by GScholz
*lol* This thread reeks of ignorance, especially of the moron who claimed that it would be a bvr engagement considering that in the actual engagement dogfight missiles were used.
Do you people actually believe the Israeli F-16s were operating independently from the vastly superior Israeli C3? Israeli AWACS was probably covering most of Syria during the operation. While the MiG-29s only had their own limited radar to scan for the Israelis the F-16s could sneak up on them with their radars off and splash them with heat-seekers.
Btw. The Israelis have helmet-mounted sights too. Even Norway's F-16 pilots have those now, and the Python 4 missile has a very good off-boresight capability.
I would be the one you are calling a moron. I used the BVR as a general term of today’s fighting, not for this particular engagement. I was not making any reference to this engagement as you have, loaded with assumptions. Since you are referring this why do you think that just because it was short range missiles it wasn’t BVR. The Python-4 has a max range of 15miles and the Aim-9 has a max of 18miles. Given this let’s say they were at 10NM when shooting the missiles. Now can you see a Mig29 from that range? What were the weather conditions of the fight? Was it a clear and sunny day? Or was it cloudy? And why would the Migs only have their "limited” radars. You don’t think Syria has powerful ground based search radars that can see better than AWACS? No sir I think I am no Moron. Only those who assume can make that of themselves.
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Credited by which side on the F-117 kill? I'm sure I know more about the F-117 that was downed than the majority of the news casts. Before it was even published that one had been downed I knew about the incident from a combat photographer.
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Originally posted by GScholz
This has been proven wrong in most cases. In almost every MiG-29 shoot-down to date the MiGs had to be visually identified. It is unlikely that such rules would change in the near future. Also the one F-16 shot down by a MiG-29 over Serbia/Kosovo was shot down by a dogfight missile (most likely R-73). The MiG-29 is also the only aircraft credited with a kill on a stealth plane (also over Serbia/Kosovo).
F117 was brought down by SAM's. So was O'grady. (f16) One of the Mig-29s that got shot down was by f16s vectored in by an E-3. If you have a link that says the range I would like to see it because I cant find one. I did see they used at least 1 AMRAAM to kill the MIG.
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The dutch already did this to an servian Mig29
They shot 1 BVR
So sofar F16 vs Mig 29 its 3 - 0
that a K/D of 3.0
looking at the numbers the F16 is better.
:aok
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Originally posted by GScholz
Ok, kev ... lets review what you stated:
This is wrong. Depending on the electronic environment, radar superiority can go either way. The MiG's radar is more powerful and has a greater range, however the F-16's radar has better signal processing.
This is wrong. Neither the F-16 nor the MiG-29 has onboard ECM. Both are however capable of carrying ECM pods. These ECM pods are constantly upgraded to better protect against new threats. Whether the NATO pods or the Russian pods are superior is anyone's guess.
This has been proven wrong in most cases. In almost every MiG-29 shoot-down to date the MiGs had to be visually identified. It is unlikely that such rules would change in the near future. Also the one F-16 shot down by a MiG-29 over Serbia/Kosovo was shot down by a dogfight missile (most likely R-73). The MiG-29 is also the only aircraft credited with a kill on a stealth plane (also over Serbia/Kosovo).
GScholz let me give you a little background about myself. I will start by saying I have an intimate knowledge of all the equipment in this conversation. I have been an aircraft avionics technician and now an engineer for the past 16 years. I have worked on many Radar and ECM systems (131 and 184Pods included). Both of wich are carried by the F16. I also have intimate knowledge about the rest of the worlds electronic systems(entire RF spectrum). I am currently a test and development engineer for new Electronic Warfare systems(Hardware and Software). And I will 100% stand by the statments I have made.
And on the stealth downing, im with Cobra412 on this one, know your facts before you speak. Unless of course you dont have all the facts.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Credited by which side on the F-117 kill? I'm sure I know more about the F-117 that was downed than the majority of the news casts. Before it was even published that one had been downed I knew about the incident from a combat photographer.
Can you please give some reasonable version of that victory?
I never heard that it was shot by MiG-29. Two versions repeated here are S-125 SAM and gunfire from Super-Galeb light attack/trainer...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Do you have intimate knowledge of the MiG-29's radar and available ECM pods? Radar I'll believe since the Germans have MiG-29s, however I seriously doubt you fully know the capabilities of Russian ECM.
I don't have time (nor a desire) for a drawn out intardnet debate, so I'll leave the discussion as is for now.
without being able to answer your quesitons, I will say I stand 100% behind my previous statements.
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Very believable peice. This was the time just after the US retired the EF-111. And I also do not believe that the EA-6B Prowler was included in this conflict until late at the end. After they realized that they were needed. And believe it or not, terrain masking does work.
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I remember this tactics described in press and on Serbian websites when terrorist bombings still were going on. T
There were interviews with pilots who went on one-way missions against aggressors, they had one chance to fire climbing before being shot down...
It's funny that Yugoslavs still have some combat planes. NATO again proves to be effective :D
I really enjoyed reports about Yugoslavian PVO tactics. They used Soviet Vietnam tactics with much higher SAM mobility.
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Still it made them suicide dweebs.
:aok
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Still it made them suicide dweebs.
:aok
Áëàæåííû íèùèå äóõîì, èáî èõ åñòü Öàðñòâî Íåáåñíîå.
Sorry, found the translation:
Matthew 5.3: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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What an interesting debate.
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What I can say is only that a combat photographer photographed the F-117 being shot down by a surface to air missile. The weapon that struck the F-117 was not a an air to air missile.
Our capabilities to track certain weapons systems (air to air and surface to air) is classified.
The US military doesn't always fight wars to completely obliterate another countries war fighting capability. Denial of offensive capabilities is more often used. Deny a countries ability to strike back whether it be in the air or the ground is mostly used. That doesn't mean you have to completely destroy the enemies war fighting capability. Area denial is enough to keep the enemy at bay and lessen the chance of friendly casualties.
GS you'd be surprised what we know.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
GS you'd be surprised what we know.
maybe... just maybe you would be suprised about what you _dont_ know.
I dunno, but im very sceptical when someone clamis they know it all and then some... not that i accuse you of that.
All militarys know what they know and not any more than that.
I/we suprised quite a few back in my day anyways
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US air battle support aircraft are awfully good right now. JSTARS, E-3 and RC aircraft have pretty amazing capabilities, especially when operating jointly.
That's all I have to say about that.
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Nilsen no one stated we know everything. We only stated there is alot that we we know in regards to other capabilities around the world and we consistantly find out more as time passes.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Nilsen no one stated we know everything. We only stated there is alot that we we know in regards to other capabilities around the world and we consistantly find out more as time passes.
Yup, and that goes for everyone. I have no doubt tho that the US military and industry has a better clue than most about other nations capabilities.
Im just saying that its dangerous for any nation to think that its pretty much on top of things. There are so many variables and so many things to keep track of. :)
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I completely understand what your saying. Hence my first post to this thread. Nothing will be truly known until this planes meet in a real world situation. Spying continues I'm sure on both sides of the fence and technology just keeps getting better. That's why it's absurd to sit here and debate who's better and who's not.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I completely understand what your saying. Hence my first post to this thread. Nothing will be truly known until this planes meet in a real world situation. Spying continues I'm sure on both sides of the fence and technology just keeps getting better. That's why it's absurd to sit here and debate who's better and who's not.
Yup. We agree on this :)
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GS to go any further into how and why they knew what struck the F-117 is pushing it. Simple fact is a combat photographer caught the incident on film just as it happenend.
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GS you'd be surprised what all we deem classified, including certain photos. Many of the films you see on CNN and such from aircraft were previously classified. Certain bits of information are always removed and if something can't be removed that the military deems sensitive they will make it a classified document. The only reason we knew about the incident so quickly is due to the fact we were stationed with the personell that took the shots. Nothing was ever said until the military made an official announcement on the incident.
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Heheheh, this is fun...
In the blue corner we have the Western-fanboys gloating with a 3:0 K/D, in the red corner we have the Easternblock-fanboys still bitter from the collapse of the Union formerly know as Soviet desperately trying to defend their Mig-29.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Heheheh, this is fun...
In the blue corner we have the Western-fanboys gloating with a 3:0 K/D, in the red corner we have the Easternblock-fanboys still bitter from the collapse of the Union formerly know as Soviet desperately trying to defend their Mig-29.
And in the middle they are dodging the missiles... :D
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Its obvious that pilot training is the major deciding factor in any aerial engagement where the planes are within 30 years of each other.
But from an airframe, missle, and avionics standpoint, the Mig-29M is on par or better than the F-16. It is faster, turns better, has longer range missles, has a wider field of fire, and is capable of tracking enemy aircraft passively without giving itself away.
I have no hidden agenda here, just stating the basic facts. But the fact of the matter is, pilot training is what really counts. Heck, several months ago I posted an account of an F-14 beating a Mig-29 in a dogfight.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Heheheh, this is fun...
In the blue corner we have the Western-fanboys gloating with a 3:0 K/D, in the red corner we have the Easternblock-fanboys still bitter from the collapse of the Union formerly know as Soviet desperately trying to defend their Mig-29.
MiG-29 (Mikoyan&Gurevich) is one of several best fighter aircraft in the world. (Will you, guys, please use its correct abbreviation 'MiG'.)
In actual air combat there are two other major components - early warning system and pilot's skills. The importance of these two components became obvious during WWI and WWII. So, all this discussion looks very much pointless.
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They're all fugle cus Kurt Tank didn't build them! so there! :D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Its obvious that pilot training is the major deciding factor in any aerial engagement where the planes are within 30 years of each other.
But from an airframe, missle, and avionics standpoint, the Mig-29M is on par or better than the F-16. It is faster, turns better, has longer range missles, has a wider field of fire, and is capable of tracking enemy aircraft passively without giving itself away.
I have no hidden agenda here, just stating the basic facts. But the fact of the matter is, pilot training is what really counts. Heck, several months ago I posted an account of an F-14 beating a Mig-29 in a dogfight.
Very true, several years ago during Red Flag, Tornado F.3s were getting kills against the F16 and F15. (had advantage through use of Link 16 from AWACs, which the US weren't using in the same way back then).
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Typhoon will kick all their arses anyway :)