Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: RGJ on February 26, 2001, 11:03:00 AM
-
Sorry if this has already been asked, but any good tips on flying the P-47 in AH, with flight characteristics, data, etc?
Also if any one has got any good films would be appreciated?
RGJ
-
Ahhh another su... er P47 fan. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Just kidding! I love the Jug, and fly it pretty much all of the time.
There are two key factors to flying the Jug, have more E, and use it effectively. That means being very careful before you engage, and using the vertical as much as possible.
You must also know the limits of your airplane compared to others. Although you can out run some planes, others you cannot. You can't out turn anything, so don't plan to win any engagements based on sustained turning ability.
Start by looking at the AH speed charts here: http://www.hitechcreations.com/p_and_v.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/p_and_v.html)
It's not nearly the fastest down low, but what the Jug can do is dive very well at high speed, and remain in control longer than most other planes. On the weekend I dove a Jug to 600 Mph and survived. Nobody caught me either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) It will compress at over 500 Mph, but with careful application of trim tabs and not too steep a dive angle, you can recover it in time.
The Jug is not a good climber, not a good turner, a terrible accelerator, and not good at retaining energy under G loading. It is good at diving at high speed, at zoom climbing, at vertical maneuvers, has a great gun package, and LOTS of ammo. It can be used to great effect as a Boom n Zoom platform, and reasonably well as an E fighter given a starting E advantage and careful use of the vertical plane to maneuver. The Jug also carries lots of gas and has really good range.
The Jug is also very good at high altitude... once you get it there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you are looking to escort a buff raid at 27k, the Jug is a good choice. For arenal altitudes, it's not the best choice for most situations. However, a careful pilot can use the Jug's strengths to great effect even at low altitudes.
The real trick is being patient enough to extend and gain an advantage before engaging. Also, judging the enemy's E state is critical. You need to mask your E state as well, and that is normally done simply by staying faster at a slightly lower altitude. Don't be afraid to turn the Jug for a short time, but use a notch or two of flaps if slow, and use vertical maneuvers like loops, immelmans, and yoyo as much as possible.
Above all... know when to run. It's tough, but the Jug can't really turn the tables once you have lost the energy battle. Typically in the Jug I trade my E for angles to get a shot, but if I miss, I am then screwed, and must run. Learn to recognise when you have lost the advantage in the Jug, and don't be afraid to use the "P47 extension maneuver"... ie a 0G dive to 500 Mph + or 50 feet, whichever comes first. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know that's not much, but it's a start. I'll try to make a couple of Jug films. If you are online, watch for guys like Frenchy, Sancho, Ammo, and MarkAT, all good Jug pilots. (There are more I've left out as well.) You can email me at sconrad@hfx.eastlink.ca and we can set up some training time in the TA if you like. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Above all... just fly it. You will die a lot at first, but after a while you will figure out how to make the big beast really work, and it's very satisfying when you kill "better" planes with your huge beast of a fighter!
------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-26-2001).]
-
Lephturn just about covered it. Here's some additional words of wisdom:
"If the enemy is above, never let your speed drop below 250mph indicated, and don't climb because you lose too much speed."*
"When by yourself, and seeing two or more enemy aircraft above, move away to get superior position and then attack. When you have your outfit with you and the enemy has so much altitude that you'd never get to him, just stay below and in the rear of him. He'll be down.
I have never yet cut my throttle just to hang on the tail of an enemy aircraft. I always move past him, going just about straight up. You'll always win a battle as long as you can stay above. Take him on the next try. The idea of cutting the throttle, as so often heard, to allow the enemy to pass has never appealed to me. They're too good at gunnery.
I stay with an enemy until: he's destroyed; I'm out of ammunition; he evades into the clouds; I'm driven off; or I'm too low on gasoline to continue the combat.
In attacking, I like my wingman about 500 to 1000 ft above and to the side. At low altitudes more. On a coordinated attack into a formation he should be off to the side 500 ft and just a bit back.
Never fire at anything more than 30 degrees off the line of flight unless you just want to scare him. As yet I haven't hit an enemy aircraft moving straight down or while in a slow or half roll. Always hold your fire until the enemy has filled the 300-yard sight bar. The point stressed here is to fight for a kill position and then fire."
--
Col. Hubert 'Hub' Zemke
CO 56th Fighter Group, Winter 1944
(* - Zemke actually said 200 mph, but I think 250 is more appropriate in the AH main arena)
"A good wingman is worth his weight in API*."
--
Maj. Walker 'Bud' Mahurin
63rd Fighter Squadron, 56th FG, Winter 1944
(* - armor piercing incendiary)
--
Sancho
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/mahurin_sig.jpg)
Hell hath no fury like 8 50 cals and 18 fire breathing cylinders.
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-27-2001).]
-
Is there any difference between the P47D-25 and P47D-30 apart from dive flap in AH?
-
I can't find any difference. Well, the 25 is green... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, here are the results of a test I just ran.
P-47 Gun and Ammo load impact.
50% Fuel
WEP
Time from hitting Fly to 5k feet on auto-takeoff.
8 seconds from clicking Fly to power engagement consistently.
8 Gun 425 RPG 2:14.50
8 Gun 267 RPG 2:09:47
6 Gun 425 RPG 2:09.47
6 Gun 267 RPG 2:06.02
I tried running sustained turning tests, but the results are inconclusive because the variance in the tests is greater than the change you get from the different gun sets.
The bottom line is that your performance is going to depend much more on your fuel load at the time than your gun set. The extra ammo and guns only really affect your acceleration, climb, and sustained turn to any appreciable degree. No Jug pilot relies on these attributes primarily to win fights, these things are just not the Jug's strength in comparison to most other planes in the arena at low altitude.
My conclusion is that the 8 Gun 425 RPG gunset is the best one to take for arena combat. The marginal performance increase from lighter gun packages does not offset the loss in firepower. The only situation where I would consider a different combination would be a 1v1 duel versus another Jug, and in that case the 6 Gun 267 RPG loadout would be a good choice if you don't plan to rely on snapshots to win the fight.
------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
-
Sancho I took the liberty to download the films from your website which is great btw, of you and Ammo in a flight. When I go to play it AH sends me back to the desktop and bombs out, is the film a different version of AH? If so can you let me know what version it is as I have got from version 0.33 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Cheers
RGJ
-
I feel need to put some of my humble comments on subject ;-)
0. First learn, learn, learn to shoot. From any position, angle, speed, distance, with rudder, snapshots, quick. In most sorties you'll have at least one chance to hit enemy while your nose pointed at him. If you miss, then you will need a lot of hard work to get into firing position again. If you do not miss - landing 8x50 on him is a good start anyway. Enemy's fuel and oil leaks, pilot wounds, lost rudder, aileron make P47 life more happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And it gives you have some extra gunnery training too.
1. Do not be afraid to reduce engine thrust to stay behind enemy. AH gunnery does not allow faster plane to climb out fast enough to be safe from 800 yard shots. I found it is better for my health to throttle down, stick behind him and use guns than to pass con and setup another pass. Anyway if you have F4U-C - you better NOT pass him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
2. You will need some training to evade and kill higher, more maneurable planes behind you. At least some of them with not very good pilots inside. Allocate few hundred deaths for that purpose, dive into low furballs and practice ;-) scissors, "front quarter shots" or whatever works for you best.
50% fuel, 8x50 + max ammo load works for climb to 20k, fight and ( optional (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) rtb. 75% fuel if you need some some spare time for search/extending/patrol. With 50% fuel do not save ammo. Shoot at anything within 500 yards, but try to see where you hit and adjust your aim.
[This message has been edited by sshh (edited 03-02-2001).]
-
Good stuff sssh.
I will make one point however. Don't ever throttle back unless you MUST. Use lag pursuit to stay behind him. Use barrel rolls away from his flight path to gain lag displacement and avoid an overshoot. Pop flaps and pull hard G's to slow if you must, but only pull the throttle back if you absolutely must. The Jug doesn't accelerate very well, so throttling back should be a last resort. It does have it's place, but be very careful.
I normally take 75% fuel for close fights, and 100% for long patrols. Overall though, for a furball 50% plus a drop tank or two works pretty well. This is only good if all the bad guys are in one place though. If things are more spread out with fewer enemies, go with the internal fuel and just be careful until you've burned the Aux tank dry.
Also, the Jug can conserver fuel VERY well. If I have even a few k of alt, I'll normally put the beast in level trim toward home, throttle back to 30-40 Man pressure, and cut the revs back to 20. The Jug will go a long, long way like that. I've crossed two sectors with less than 1/8th of main left before.
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Don't ever throttle back unless you MUST. Use lag pursuit to stay behind him. Use barrel rolls away from his flight path to gain lag displacement and avoid an overshoot. Pop flaps and pull hard G's to slow if you must, but only pull the throttle back if you absolutely must. The Jug doesn't accelerate very well, so throttling back should be a last resort. It does have it's place, but be very careful.
Right. Its all depends on how confident you feel there. If I approach just too fast and see that con does not do anything that can not followed and I just missing my shots for some reason - I'll do whatever it takes to stay behind. Throttle down, 360 turns with Spits... I may kill him at first shot or at 10th, but I am 80% sure that he is dead soon. And after all it is just to be offensive, not defensive.
Of course if he does good split-s or something that can not be lead by my guns - just pull up and switch to rear view.
Good info on fuel. Still have no idea what is key for the revs though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
You can adjust your prop pitch, and hence your RPM with the keypad +/- keys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Originally posted by RGJ:
Sancho I took the liberty to download the films from your website which is great btw, of you and Ammo in a flight. When I go to play it AH sends me back to the desktop and bombs out, is the film a different version of AH? If so can you let me know what version it is as I have got from version 0.33 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Those films are from version 1.04. BTW, I have sent HTC an e-mail about old films no longer working with the latest version. Hopefully they will fix that so we don't lose some great films!
BTW, the sshh is 150% correct about the necessity of shooting well in the jug and keeping the plane *light*. I might add that it is smart to take 3 drop tanks with 50% fuel internal load. This way you can climb to alt and cruise to find a fight and ditch the tanks before engaging. Then you are nice and light and can fight for a few minutes before needing to RTB.
--
Sancho
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/mahurin_sig.jpg)
"A fighter pilot must possess an inner urge to do combat..." --Hub Zemke
-
Thanks for all the information and advise<S>, it has been logged and registered. Started really flying the P47 proper last tour and did not do too bad, now this tour I can not hit a barn door, but it has been a fun ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Will reinstall ver1.04 to watch films (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
RGJ
-
Lephturn, can you explain a bit more about prop pitch and revs please?
The prop pitch/manifold pressure are new sim concepts for me, AW merely has a "throttle" reading.
-
there has been some good P-47 sticks chime in here..and I wont rehash all that. Generally speaking, you can't go wrong using a strict energy style of fighting. The jug excells in a vertical plane. I am, one that rarely "saddles up" on a con, rather I try to make good passes at them. The agressiveness in most folks will cause them to make a mistake and get them slow. I know I will get rewarded with a slow and vulnerable con with my patient flying. However there is a fine line. You must be aggresive, you will eventually get to a point where you know what to do on instinct ( I am hoping I will get there soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
Keep yer jug on top of the fray, keep it fast, and recover from your passes. Dont forget that a low jug is one of the easiest targets in AH.
<S>
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
Keep yer jug on top of the fray, keep it fast, and recover from your passes. Dont forget that a low jug is one of the easiest targets in AH.
Yes we need everyone to know that Jug is EASIEST target in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) So go and kill Jug fast. It is easy and does not require any thinking !
-
The only difference in performance between the -25 and -30 that I can quantify is that the -25 will only run a maximum of 49" mp versus the -30's 52" max mp at full throttle without wep. The -30 also carrys a different rocket load without tubes while the -25 carrys the tube type rocket load and after having fired your rockets still has the tubes attached and the resultant drag they induce.
The -25 "feels" a bit more maneuverable to me. Frenchy (P-47 pilot extraordinair) noted the other day that he could "feel" a difference in the way the two planes handled. He prefered the -30, I personaly prefer the -25. Frenchy is also a much better pilot than I (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/P47.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
Seeker,
Manifold pressure is an indicator of how much power the engine is producing. It is directly related to the throttle setting here in AH. The rpm is how fast the prop is turning. When you use the +/- keys on the numberpad it is supposed to control the pitch of the prop, or how big a bite of air the prop gets. A higher rpm setting is a lower bite of air but allows the engine to develope more power.
In AH these can be used to extend your range. In the P-47 if I am looking for maximum range I will reduce throttle to a setting anywhere from 35 to 40" of manifold pressure (mp) and set my prop to 2000 to 2200 rpm. In combat I use max rpm and max mp.
In real life the mp pressure also indicates the load on the engine. If you were to use a static throttle setting and you increased the pitch on the prop (lower rpm, bigger bite of air) it would have the effect of also increasing mp, or load on the engine. It's not modeled that way in AH.
I'm not Lephturn, but I hope this answered your question (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/P47.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
Thanks very much Mark; these are new concepts for me....
However, if I'm begining to understand, shouldn't we change the prop pitch to fine for take off and landing? I've tried it and it makes things worse??
-
Dedicated Jug pilots IMO are the most patient and attentive pilots out there. I love the 47D30 and fly it often. I need to learn the patience required. Beware of them in pairs above 20K.
-
Whoops, missed that question Seeker. Glad to see some of the others stepped in to answer your questions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to takeoff and landing, the prop pitch is automatically adjusted with the throttle in AH. The only reason you need to manually adjust it is to save fuel in my experience. I don't know what you mean by "making things worse". I simply leave it alone for takeoff, since it is adjusted for maximum power automatically. On landing, I throttle back to slow down, and the pitch would automatically change I believe. I find the Jug one of the easier planes to land. Is there a specific problem you are having at takeoff or landing?
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Whoops, missed that question Seeker. Glad to see some of the others stepped in to answer your questions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The best thing about comunity, no? :-)
As to takeoff and landing, the prop pitch is automatically adjusted with the throttle in AH.
Just to make sure I'm not confusing terminology.... You mean the prop pitch alters with inches mercuary? I thought it was with RPM (confused again)
The only reason you need to manually adjust it is to save fuel in my experience. I don't know what you mean by "making things worse".
My limited understanding is that prop pitch is analagous to changing gear in a car. Therefore I would have thought one would change to fine pitch for taking off, in the same way you shift down for hills or acceleration. I tried it, and ran out of runway. By the same logic, one (I think!!) would shift to fine pitch on landing for increased prop drag (akin to down shifting for a tight bend or stopping) but it didn't seem to affect E loss.
Is there a specific problem you are having at takeoff or landing?
Staying alive in general, actually! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But really it's landing. I can't seem to loose speed. Flaps help to get the speed down, but then I bounce off the runway.
-
Seeker,
you are correct in your assumption. You would want a finer pitch (less bite) on take off versus the time you would want to gain fuel economy.
In AH when you are taking off the pitch is on it's finest (flatest) pitch allowing the engine to rev up and make the most power similar to your analogy of a lower gear in a car. I'm not exactly sure how HT implements this but I beleive there is a certain amount of automatic pitch adjustment during the flight envelope. When you change the rpm from it's default setting using the +/- keys on the numberpad you can only change the pitch to a coarser setting, i.e. more bite. That reduces the engine rpm and therefore the amount of power it can generate and increases your fuel economy.
In real life you would not only make mp and pitch adjustments but you would also adjust the mixture of the air/fuel ratio going into the cylinders. You cannot adjust mixture in AH. I suppose that it may be tied into the rpm control some but not sure if HT even implements that aspect of adjustment.
As far as slowing down for a landing there are several ways to do this, one is the use of flaps and then of course the reduction of throttle. You also need some room for all this to happen in. I try to approach a field in such a manner as to have some time flying straight and level parralel to the runway in the direction opposite the direction I will be landing in, that is called the downwind leg. During that time I keep adding up trim and reducing throttle to put the aircraft in a nose high position and stablize the speed some. After passing the end of the runway I start a turn towards a point that would intersect with a line running through the center of the runway, this is called the crosswind leg. During this short time from downwind leg to that point of intersection I am still adjusting aircraft attitude and speed, dropping more flaps and possibly lowering the landing gear if I am below 150mph indicated.
I then turn to final, or base leg. By this time I should have stabalized my speed to the 120 to 130 mph indicated airspeed, I should have full flaps and gear lowered and I should have the right amount of up pitch induced to where I can control my decent with the throttle only. More throttle slows the rate of decent and less throttle increases the rate of decent.
Notice, I am not using the elevators to control this, I have the aircraft's attitude adjusted with the trim and I am only using throttle to control rate of decent.
At touchdown, if all went well and you did it right, you should be just above or just at stall speed. I like to touch down concurrently with a short blast of the stall horn. I also land with brakes engaged since that makes it "stick" and not bounce. You can with a lot of practice make it stick without the use of the brakes but you really need to be smooth when you do.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/P47.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
[This message has been edited by Mark Luper (edited 03-11-2001).]
-
Good stuff MarkAT. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I will add one note. In AH, if you need to slow down quickly, one of the best ways is to use hard rudder. If you blow your landing setup and you are too fast, you can try hard rudder in one direction and roll the opposite slightly to keep your flight direction close to correct and scrub off speed. It works.
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
-
Thank you both, beautifully explained.
Do you think there'll ever be a formal training class in the TA, or a training syllabus?
I've been lucky enough to catch a couple of trainers from time to time, but of course they always ask "What do you want to know?". Well, if I knew my weaknesses (apart from acute death syndrome), I wouldn't be there! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, that's enough thread hijacking for one day......