Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mitsu on February 13, 2005, 11:48:12 PM
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USAAF's GunCamera Movie in the late war.
Mainly this movie contains Japaneze plane kill scenes (some LW).
late-war.wmv (http://www.uranus.dti.ne.jp/~mitty/temp/late-war.wmv) (11MB)
hope HTC staffs see it. :)
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Wow thanks!
Some really wild moments..what looked to be friendly fire on the tail of a P51, a real low alt 190(?)long sequence, and the last few of the twin engine planes low. Was the guy in the chute being shot at?
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awesome film!
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:( thats really sad..
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Saw a couple P-47s take some hits and keep on goin :aok
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Not one HO in the entire film...go figure.
Thanks Mitsu - great film!
DmdMax
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Thank U, Mitsu San!
...GunSight Too
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The modeling needs lots of work. Planes did not lose their vert stab after the first hit, Spits were not pulling those amaising reverses and excelerations that we all know can do. Also, guns seemed fubared. No one was hitting from 6 or 8 football field lengts, and the list goes on. Those guys were either newbs or there is some fixing that needs to be done with the modeling. I will stick with AH for now.
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Yeah dedalos, note none of the aircraft lost their tail, horizontal stab, vertical stab but lots and lots of debris however. AND NO WINGS FELL OFF!!
Guess our damage model is a little overcooked... :D
Mitsu - where did you find this film?
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I did notice that many of the pilots had rounds falling just under their target. That is something I am very familar with.
RedDog, those were all Axis aircraft being shot, other than the P-51D that seemed to have either cut in or have a shoulder shooter (the P-51 with the camera).
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Yeah dedalos, note none of the aircraft lost their tail, horizontal stab, vertical stab but lots and lots of debris however. AND NO WINGS FELL OFF!!
Guess our damage model is a little overcooked... :D
Mitsu - where did you find this film?
You go tit all wrong. Ours is fine. Those Spit and 190 pilots were not trained properly. :D
Kidding aside, I was kind of surprized not to see any 'creazy' ACMs once the first hits landed. Those guys definetly did not know how to fly :rofl (just could not rezist, sorry)
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There are half a dozen other reasons having nothing to do with flight modelling why gunnery and ACM is like that in AH. Most of them relate to the fact that as we play the game we aren't sitting in a real plane and we aren't really looping and turning through the sky at 400 mph.
That the aircraft were capable of "amazing" reverses and other maneuvers is not in much doubt. The question is whether most pilots were capable of them. The physical stress that G-forces caused a pilot made any more than a few hard turns every few minutes out of the question for the majority of flyers.
Besides that, most of these pilots were "newbs" with much less combat experience than you possess from AH. Nobody but the most cool-headed aces considered pulling such daring maneuvers. Many didn't even know how, and many others were too excited by combat to plan a complex maneuver, and without the experience of hundreds of dogfights, they didn't have an automatic instinct for ACM like many AH pilots. They were just thinking about living through the engagement and maybe even being lucky enough to get an enemy under the crosshairs.
Look at the gunnery in some of the clips in that movie. A lot of the time the tracers aren't even coming close. Forget about proper lead, they aren't even remotely on target. It's not because the plane isn't accurate, it's because the pilot is so excited to have an enemy in front of him that he's almost firing wildly. Possbly combine that with exhaustion and you don't have a likely situation for pinpoint gunnery.
We have the luxury of not enduring any forces of inertia as we play AH, as well as being able to access any controls for the aircraft we need without even having to move our hands. Combine that with the fact that we're lucky enough to be able to live and fight another day no matter what happens, and it's no wonder that you see far more marvelous flying in the sim than in reality.
AH's damage model could probably use tweaking, but there's not much wrong with the flight modelling, and AH will never perfectly represent WWII combat in the way you want.
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Originally posted by Ecliptik
but there's not much wrong with the flight modelling, and AH will never perfectly represent WWII combat in the way you want.
I am just happy to know that there people here that flew Spits and 190s and know how they should fly, they know what I want from the game, and they also know what HT is planning to do with the game.
You are saing that WWII german pilots where newbs, and did not know what to do when in troble? Honestly, I have seen a lot of these films either dog fighting or attacking bombers. I am just amaized that when attacking bombers, the fact that they have guns is completly ignored and in dog fights, I have not seen any 'advanced' ACM. I don;t believe its because those guys were newbs. As you said, some things were just impossible for the pilot to handle.
In any case, I was only kidding. Not asking for fixes. It is only a game.
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I was referring mostly to American pilots, not 5 year LW veterans (though at the end of the war LW pilots were mostly either multiple aces or totally inexperienced kids, and much more the latter).
But yeah, I believe that when fired upon, most pilots would do nothing more complex than enter a tight turn or a split-S. Perhaps only experienced LW aces would have attempted something like a Levi-style high yo-yo reversal, and when you think about it, Levi and other pilots like him are the best in AH so it's not so bad anyway.
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None of them were firing cannons. So all your seeing is what newbies can accomplish with 50 cals.
So dont assume that the whole AH2 gunfire resolution system is furball cause I have seen lots of shots in AH that look exaclty like those for effect.
Notice the one guy that keeps ranging in to his deflection shot with short bursts..none of which have a hope of hitting.
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Ecliptic.
Nice level headed assessment sir. And likely the most accurate. We seem to forget the fact that the real pilots had to constantly deal with the effects of the G's negitive and positive all the while trying to survive a life threatning event. Thanks
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Originally posted by Karnak
I did notice that many of the pilots had rounds falling just under their target. That is something I am very familar with.
RedDog, those were all Axis aircraft being shot, other than the P-51D that seemed to have either cut in or have a shoulder shooter (the P-51 with the camera).
Rgr that, now that I looked at it again:o
They have icons turned off, I'm sticking to that yeah.
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Lets not forget that spending just 2 months in AH2, we gain more experience and have many many lives to expend.
these guys had one chance, the majority probably never flew more than a few combat mission before they died.
ACM was not top of their list of priorities, the number one thing they knew how to do was either run away or BnZ.
if they had the air war of WW2 again, and we all joined, it would be very interesting :p
great film mitsu, thanks
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Nice find Mitsu :)
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I prefer seeing damage in here, rather than poking holes in the plane like ww2ol. I like the carnage.
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i agree filth, its hard enough to down a plane in here with rubber bullets and warps let alone if the planes get a titanium re-skin :)
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The thing that always amazes me about these films, is the absolute devastation 6 or 8 .50's can do to the target with just a short burst.
In that respect, I have always felt that 50 cals were a little undermodeled in AH. Anyone else with me on that?
Also, look at how many hits that B-17 is taking to it's engines, wing , ball gunner and body and remaining in tact pretty much.....although I'm sure people inside where being cut to peices.
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M2 guns are overmodelled in R/L too... :(
>Mitsu - where did you find this film?
I've received this film from Japanese Player who plays WW2OL.
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That P-51 almost got the shooter kill-shootered.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Also, look at how many hits that B-17 is taking to it's engines, wing , tail gunner and body and remaining in tact pretty much.....although I'm people inside where being cut to peices.
That was a Japanese bomber under fire from American aircraft, using, no doubt, the Browning .50s you just remarked about. I think maybe a Helen and a Peggy.
All of this footage is American footage of Axis aircraft being attacked.
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ahh, thanks Karnak.
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is confusing sometimes, the first looks very much like a jug in the line of fire.
what prooves it is that its in colour. America were the only ones to use colour film, am i correct?
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I swear, I just watched it again and that B-17 was not in there........the one that was being raked back and forth all over it's wings, engines, ball gunner.
Was this edited?
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Originally posted by NUKE
I swear, I just watched it again and that B-17 was not in there........the one that was being raked back and forth all over it's wings, engines, ball gunner.
Was this edited?
I know that footage has been posted in the past, but it wasn't in this clip. I downloaded this one last night and watched it then. The aircraft IDs were done off of memory. There is a boxy twin engined aircraft that looks somewhat like a B-25 and caught on fire quickly that I think was a Helen (Ki-48, IIRC). There is another twin that is blurrier and seemed more resistant. I think that may have been a Peggy (Ki-67), it is a harder guess on my part.
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The one I saw was the same you have seen of the b-17 taking a long pattern of hits as it flew straight and level.
Unless I accidently saw the old clip again, I could swear I saw it in that video .
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Cool gun camera film. I'm glad to see that "real" fighter pilots have trouble hitting their targets. Makes me feel a little better that as a virtual pilot it's ok to miss.
:aok
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ok, heres an interesting question.
does the pony that jumps infront get hit by bullets or is it merely a sun reflection from the polished tail plane??
:p
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That pony took a hit, no doubt......freaking kill stealer
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frame by frame looks like just a reflection
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did you notice that guy that came this close --><-- to hitting the building? :eek: (somewhere around 2:45 iirc)
he took a pretty heavy burst shortly after that, though i couldnt tell whether or not he went down
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correct ded :aok
no bullets strike the pony, the angle is not right for it, look at the tracers.
also, as Icarus' father says, frame by frame it's clearly a reflection.
yeah Jnuk! i was amazed at the low level scenes, that was no more than 70ft max.
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Originally posted by Jnuk
did you notice that guy that came this close --><-- to hitting the building? :eek: (somewhere around 2:45 iirc)
he took a pretty heavy burst shortly after that, though i couldnt tell whether or not he went down
I can't imagine being a person in one of those houses or standing in a field there while two fighters' go roaring past with one shooting at the other.
And how about that guy in the chute towards the end? Can you imagine what he was thinking as that fighter went ripping past him... WTF would that be like...
The thing about films like these is you can play a game like Aces High. And shoot planes out of the sky and thats that. Nothing more. But when you see films like this it really helps to put alot into perspective. Simply amazing.
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The thing that always amazes me about these films, is the absolute devastation 6 or 8 .50's can do to the target with just a short burst.
Not to be rude, but what 'absolute devastation'?
The distances portrayed in the film can't have been more than 150 meters, and the only real indication of the target plane being hit is the bursts of smoke and incendiary sparks.. and the occasional "sweet-spot" API hits that throw up loads of smoke and causing fires to ignite.
None of the planes in the film had suffered any kind of structural damage, and none of the planes in the film can we really confirm as 'shot down'. The result of 50cal fire in about 90% of the instances portrayed in the film ends up with the target plane trailing smoke.
Only the final 4~5 films are really confirmable as being shot down, since the target erupts in flames. (and observe at the distance which the 50cals were hammered into the target, and yet no structural failures whatsoever).
Ofcourse, internally, the target plane could have been in a total mess.. maybe the controls are dead.. engine controls not responding.. oil flowing into the cockpit.. or the pilot could be hurt/dead - but none of this is visually confirmable.
In that respect, I have always felt that 50 cals were a little undermodeled in AH. Anyone else with me on that?
The 50cals are fine. However, there are somethings which could be done to DM to improve the realism - not regarding the overall power of the gun, but regarding its effects.
For instance, the internal control cords/cables/rods could be modelled in AH - in this case, pepperring loads of .50s to the target's wings or tail-end might not rip it off, but still has high chance of significantly hampering the target plane's ability to maneuver.
Also, the effects of incendiary rounds could be modelled(or better yet, the different rounds in the ammo belt) - which in this case would make the .50s much more efficient in that the chance to set flames to the target could be higher. An incendiary round is detected to have 'penetrated' the fuel tank area and bam! fire erupts... Or, if a plane is already leaking fuel.. and incendiary rounds lands at the general area of the fuel leak and wham! the target now trails fire... etc etc.
Ofcourse, in that case, it would also mean that the internal spars/supports should be also modelled(the structural integrity of the various plane parts having a separate 'trigger'), so peppering the surface of the wing with .50s would not mean that the wings fall off when enough 'hit points' have been achieved.
If you're really unlucky, it could mean that you might hit hundreds of rounds into the target's wing, and the enemy plane could still be flying. (whereas an explosive 20mm shell would always rip the target to shreds).
So, if this kinda change is implemented for the .50s(chance of structural failure much lower, but chance of internal failure much higher), it probably would take some time to get used to, but the outcome would be very immersive.
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Like someone said, Control Wires are not currently modelled in AH. Once they are, you can take away the structural damage of the .50 a little.
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LOL I hate to be so negative. But I can see it now...
Flying along, alone, far away from any con and all the sudden the "control cord/cable bug" wigs out and the plane takes a dive for the dirt. :lol :aok
But it would be neat to have more effects as far as damage goes.
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Read This (http://www.virtualcheckertails.com/Connons%20v%20MG.pdf). It's an interesting read.
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