Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: 54Ed on November 12, 2000, 12:19:00 AM
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Hi all. Having a bit of trouble adapting my shooting style to AH, specifically high aspect angle shooting.
I'm a BnZ'er by preference, so I tend to find myself shooting at N1Ks, zekes, and yaks as they pull break turns across my front. I'm used to this, and in other sims I just roll my wings to match theirs and keep them in my gunsight til point blank range, then give them a good burst. After that, I usually pull vertical and set up another pass.
Not getting as many hits in AH as I'd like. I seem to be either losing sight of the target under my nose, or shooting behind the target. Part of this seems to be net lag; AH is a little jumpier at close range than other sims I've played. But part of it is my technique, I'm sure.
Anyone have any tips for better shooting in this situation in AH? Specifically, does anyone monkey with your head position to get better visibility of the target in a high angle tracking shot? Or do most folks do like I do, which is keep my head centered on the gunsite and try to pull just enough lead without losing the target under my nose?
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AH is a WYSIWYG front end, meaning that if you see it hit the con those packets are sent to the nmes front end (FE). Its all worked out on your FE, so lag doesn't have anything to do with deflection shooting (unless he warps).
As for advice, pick one plane, and master the guns on that. Cannon you'll need to lead more than MGs cause MGs shoot straighter. Its all practice - getting to the point when you 'just know' it will hit. Use the force. If you find cannon takes too much lead for you to be effective (like myself) fly a 50 cal armed plane like the P38, P47 or P51 (if you dont fly yank iron - then get used to cannons). Hispano seems to shoot straighter than all other cannons.
Second, set you convergence to the point where you score most of your kills. I BnZ, so as a matter of course my closure on the target is normally fast, so i have staggered my convergence, so each gun will 'walk' thru the target - so to speak. I fly P51s most of the time, my conv is set to 400, 420, 440. with 440 the outside guns. On a good gun pass i can drop any fighter in one pass.
No easy solution just experience.
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Overlord Spatula
Real men dont need no stinkin cannons
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 11-12-2000).]
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54ed
There is no remedy for the problem of estimating the correct lead angle when the issue is visibility over the nose. Other than chopping off the nose! :-)
If we assume that the respective fighter velocities are going to be somewhat similar, then any high angle deflection shot is going to produce a lead angle that may well be outside the physical viewing boundaries of the sight (when the attacker is in-plane with the target).
I deliberately use a bunch of qualifiers when I talk about this subject because the subject is....well...subjective. There is no way to find a 'one size fits all' gunnery solution in this highly dynamic situation ('dynamic' in this sense means a lot of things are changing fast!!).
Projectile ballistics do make a measurable impact on the question. However, it's not a matter of a particular weapon shooting 'straighter'. Instead, it's a function of muzzle velocities. Slow muzzle velocities produce a longer time of flight for a given firing range, and this results in the lead angle being larger than would otherwise be the case.
Additionally, the selected harmonization range (known as 'convergence' in AH) deals only in azimuth corrections, not in elevation corrections. As such, the convergence settings only affects bullet density at a particular range and have nothing to do with lead requirements. As long as we expect that the relative fighter velocities are somewhat similar, then the required lead angle in mils (an angular unit of measurement) stays relatively constant over the typical range of firing opportunities in high angle off situations.
Therefore, convergence has an effect on when you should pull the trigger in range...but has little to no effect on the required lead angle.
In any fighter, it is possible to 'track on the beam', in other words conventionally track in a high angle deflection situation. The extent to which you may do so is a function of two things...visibility over the nose, and the target velocity.
Finally...this is only a sim and may or may not be programmed correctly with regard to real world ballistics. My experience with it is that it is 'close enough'.
But this means that the target may well be below your nose in many high G and/or high angle off situations.
Andy
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Thanks for the answers. Both of you confirm my experience in other sims.
What I am fishing for are tricks peculiar to AH. For instance, would raising your head position for such a shot give you greater visibility over the nose?
Of course you wouldn't be able to see the reticle, but you could estimate by placing the center top of the glass plate on the enemy, for instance.
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Some folks actually modify their reticle specifically for a higher seat position. You would have to modify a reticle to put the pipper at the top. and then adjust your seat position so that the bullet stream crossed it at roughly convergence.
The second trick is to watch your G meter. If you are high-angle deflection shooting you need to try to get close to 0 G's when you shoot. Then fire ahead of the target and let him fly through the bullet stream. This won't be very effective in MG armed planes, but the cannon birds can get great results this way.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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Rember if your fireing wing guns they cross over.
If your super close say 100 yrs a guy can fly right thru both cones of fire.
The same can happen if your convergence is set to 250 and your crossing shot is 400 yrds.
It sounds crazy but they do look like they fly right thru your rounds.
What do you do to fix this prob?
If your in a deflection shot sit.
Aim with the wings guns that are higher.
Especially if you are close.
Fireing in any sit farther than 300 is a pretty tough shot.
In a turn a sure kill shot for me anyways is around 250 yrds.
Useing a 50 cal plane or a fw or niki 300 to 350 is max range.
EYE
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Eye
I think your view of the bullet stream is a little off. The gun lines are not like laser beams...each gun produces a pattern of fire about a cenral axis...this is called dispersion...and tends to widen the kill zone.
Convergence is meant to concentrate the separate bullet streams...but the bullet streams are still there. So if the convergence was set up for 300 and the target was at 100, you still have a chance at getting a hit. Not as great as if the target had been at 300...no argument there.
In a wing gun convergence arrangement, the only time where you begin to lose a decent chance of hitting the target at all is at ranges greater than double the convergence range. Why? Because at these ranges, the bullet streams are diverging outwards at a distance greater than the span of the fighter. For that reason, I tend to favor convergence settings at the longer ranges.
As I have said before, convergence is a factor in increasing the probability of getting a hit (by producing a denser area of dispersion)...it has little to do with lead angle.
Andy
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In the army, we call it the cone of fire, because that's what the bullet coverage looks like: a cone with the tip at the barrel and the open circle towards the target. For each gun, the dispersion pattern grows wider as the range increases, and the bullet density is less. The convergence is not 6 intersecting lines, but rather 6 converging cones. The bullet pattern on a flat target would be six overlapping circles, with the circles getting larger as the range increases. Beyond the convergence setting, the overall pattern would take the shape of a single growing "blob" ... I would think.
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Ed54;
You might try using this gunsight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum2/HTML/000462.html). I set it up with the intension of being able to predict lead a little better.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Best is the trash talk. Severly and viciously going after your enemies, their mothers, and their shabby sheep."
StSanta
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Thanks, I'll try it out.
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I read you article a while back it was ok.
As far as what i said its right on the money.
In a turn going for a turning bandit shoot with the upper gun.
Most planes being chased turn or roll downward to get away.
Shooting and aiming with the upper gun increases the odds for a hit.
Why? Because rounds drop. If you miss with the upper banks of guns you have a good chance the bogie will run into the lower stream of the shot.
As far as shooting with a d convergence of more than 300 i dont do that.
Unless your flying a 50. cal plane or a 1c
Its the wrong way to do it.
I set mine up on all planes to hit at 300d or 250.
If you want to hit on a long shot all you do is aim off to the left or right above the red.
EYE
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Eye
Good grief!!
I promise not to tell you how to lay bricks if you promise not to tell me how to harmonize guns. OK?
Andy
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LOL YOU made my day!!!!!!!
BTW i saw in another post you wont tell what name you fly under?
Why?
This is the part where i would check your score board to see if you know what your talking about.AH is not aw3 or wb.
I knew i flew with you in aw3 lol otherwize how would you know what i do for a liveing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This is not a mean post at all towards you but writeing a article about deflection shooting doesent make you a expert.
I have no name to check which is a shame (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
What i said was right on the money as far as shooting goes.
Btw the if you ever write another article please put in it that slowing your enemy down is the most important part of being a good shot.
A slow enemy is easier to kill with fewer rounds. The shot is easier too.
Any suprise you can add to a fight leads to easy shot situations too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now just who could you be hmmm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
EYE
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Eye
Your occupation is posted in your profile.
I have never flown AW.
I answered the question about my call sign in the other post.
I seldom fly AH. When I do, I am positively terrible. I can't manage the views worth a hoot, and I have yet to adjust to the effect of net lag on maneuver timing. In other words, I am an easy kill.
But, on the other hand, I do know what it is to fire at real life targets...in three different fighters. The USAF saw fit to certify me as a Fighter Weapons School instructor. The course I taught (classsroom and flying) was A2A gunnery...both fixed sight and LCOSS.
Does that make me an expert? No...but it's a long way ahead of bricklaying.
Andy
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Good im glad you are!!!
Im use to killing engineers ,programers, doctors, pilots etc. Guys with more intelligence than i have. I do love beating guys who mistake my poor spelling for a lack of skill or understanding of flight sims.
What i said in terms of this flight sim is right on.
I stand by it. You as sure as anyone must understand that the rounds here dont act exactly like real life.
As far as you why wont you list your name here?
Thats weak. Who's going to hunt you? You yourself said your not very good. This is play remember? Hell why would you care your a real pilot.
I flew with a guy in aw as my co. he said he was a f111 driver. He never hid.
I think its cool you are what you are.
I have respect for you. Im sure you know way more than i ever will.
You might be a real fighter pilot but the real question is are you as good as a play one as me.
Oh and you still should pull your conv back to 300 d.
Unless you are in a 50. cal plane or a 1c.
EYE
Btw i hope you enjoy what you do as much as i do. Im a lucky man.
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Eye
Congrats on all that success...you are indeed a lucky man.
And thanks also for that post. At least somewhere in there you had one thing right.
See you around.
Andy
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Keep working at the game bud with all your real life skill i bet your a terror here.
When i think of some one who has all your credentials i bet you must really be good.
Who are you Citabria Aper leonid? Thats my short list of guys who have impressed me. Mitsu too.
Some one else?
When you kill me or are killed by me please refer to this thread. Ok so i know who you are. Im sure you must be one of the best here.
Btw i know in superior snobbish state you dont realize that telling me i dont understand how to shoot here is like slapping me in the face.
You layed down the gauntlet not me.
EYE
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Ive just read the last 25 posts you have made.
Im sorry i picked on you.
Flying a jet for real is very different than
playing AH.
I have read by your posts that you are honestly trying to learn this game.
I thought you must be one of the top players
here for sure.
I was wrong. Its not nice to lampoon someone who is makeing a effort to improve.
Im sorry.
Good luck
EYE
If you ever want to learn how to kill and land them look me up i will help you out.
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Thanks, Eye!
I need some help and I may take you up on the offer.
BTW...if you ever want some help with flying fighters...you know...like for real...then look me up and I will help you out.
Andy
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I never was interested in jets.
Thx anyways.
I love ww2 or 1 fighters.
Missles ruined all the fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You should take me up though on the offer.
Flying a plane well is only half the game.
Tactics are what sets a good player apart from the rest.
EYE
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Andy;
I would like help flying real jets. How about you hook me up for some F-4 training to start with, and then lets move straight up to the F-18.
Sound like a plan? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Best is the trash talk. Severly and viciously going after your enemies, their mothers, and their shabby sheep."
StSanta
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Mino
Grab your g suit and let's hit it!
Andy
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BTW...if you ever want some help with flying fighters...you know...like for real...then look me up and I will help you out.
Andy, I will be showing up at your doorstep tomorrow! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok here's my two cents for what its worth..
I fly the 51 all the time and rarely use any of the other planes. I do fly BnZ myself and when attacking I try to avoid shooting at planes if they are under my nose. I will usually pull up a little or and roll over in a kind of lag turn and loko for the better shot. Patience is the key here.. my convergence on any plane is 300 for all guns. Eventually you will get a sort of fell for where the plane is under your nose when turning, but I don't recommend shooting. Take your time and get the shot when they are in fornt and you can see them.
Hope that made some sort of sense.
Bane
13th TAS
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Andy:
What you said about the cone of fire is absolutely correct in AH.
In fact the dispersion is so large that convergence has a lot less importance than most people would expect. You can set your convergence to 600 yards and some of the bullets will still cross over at 250-300 yards. I.e. the cone angles are so large that the cones intersect at a much shorter distance than your convergence setting.
One thing: I think the convergence does indeed have an effect on elevation. I have not done any kind of precise testing, but long convergence settings sure seem to throw the bullets higher.
Eye: I thought you quit. Too bad.
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funked
Thanks for the backup!
I'm not sure about the elevation of the gun lines either. It may well be that HTC has thrown in a correction for the longer convergence ranges...who knows?!
Your point about the size of the dispersion areas is right on the money. I don't think most of the folks here really completely understand the convergence issue.
It would be nice to see what dispersion values HTC has used in AH. It may be that they have not used any! If so, then we truly have those 'laser beam' gun lines that some think of. Otherwise, the convergence question is really hard to get a handle on until we know just what the projectile behavior is.
In the past, someone did some dispersion drawings to show the situation...don't know what happened to them.
Andy
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I found that convergence reference. Here it is:
http://www.cris.com/~reaper/gunnery/gunnery.html (http://www.cris.com/~reaper/gunnery/gunnery.html)
Please use this for basic info only. I am not saying his computations or values are correct, but the general concepts are OK. At the bottom of the page are links to some decent pictures that show dispersion over various ranges.
Andy
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Funked = scrub
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Another superstar who does not fly under his name lol.
300 max convergence in this game is the way to go.
You guys can talk real life all you want in AH 300 is better for turning shots.All guns set to the same range.
It gives you a sweet spot at 350 too on straight shots.
Shooting farther is a waste.
Unless you are in a 1c or a 51.Or you have no other choice for the kill. Its a waste of ammo.
Dsl or cable also helps alot compared to a 56k modem.
Fewer warps = better shooting %
Btw funked i dont ever remember having a prob with you.
In fact i haven't had a prob with anyone in AH.Ive made a point to stay out of arguments.
Even old Andy who wont tell what name he flies under i would not classify as a argument.
He just made the mistake of telling me i dont understand how to shoot here.
Which is rude.
EYE
You treat me rude in a post you will get it back.
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It took me awhile but i found it.
You fly under funked up?
If so your not a scrub your ok.
EYE
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Andy, that is an extremely useful and enlightening link, thanks. The pictures and diagrams are excellent, especially the ones that compare the shot pattern of 300 yard convergence at various ranges.
My gunnery appears to be improving with practice in AH, which is not surprising. I find I do better with the P-51 than the Spit, again not surprising considering the greater bullet density of the shot pattern. I've nearly given up on high-angle shots, though. Instead, I try to set up a low-angle shot by varying my pursuit curve, using the Lead-Lag-Pure sequence. AH keeps you a bit more honest than the other sims I've tried.
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Fair enough Eye. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't have any particular problem with you, I just thought you were being a little hard on Andy.
I wouldn't spend too much time looking at my statistics. I do a lot of fighter bomber work so they are a bit misleading. A lot of ack deaths and a lot of cheap kills. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-18-2000).]
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PS:
Andy, it appears that the current dispersion is truly random, i.e. each bullet has an equal chance of being anywhere in the cone. Pyro says the next version will have a center-weighted dispersion pattern. I think the cone angles will still be the same, but the probability of a bullet being closer to the center will be higher. So convergence will likely be a more important setting.
Eye, It just occured to me that the importance of convergence would be different depending on the plane and guns we are using. I'm pretty sure each gun caliber and make has a different dispersion pattern. I fly a Spitfire usually and I fire cannons separate from MG's. On the cannons (which are in the wing roots and are synchronized) the dispersion is so large that I find the convergence setting doesn't affect things much. But on the MG's It seems more important, especially using the 303's which are way out near the wingtips. So I have started to set the MG convergence in pretty close - 200-300 yards.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-18-2000).]