Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: tikky on February 15, 2005, 02:21:07 PM
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which of these BVRs AAMs are cheaper and better?
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R-77 has about 3 times the range.
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hahahahaha
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Originally posted by eagl
hahahahaha
What would you know???
Dont laugh at the utter superiority of Russian missle sales brocures!!!
:rofl
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R-77
Russian Code R-77M1
Manufacturer Vympel
Fuel Solid Air Breathing Ram Jet
Guidance Command then Active Radar
Range Km 150-200
Weight 226 Kg
AIM-120C
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Finspan 63.5 cm (25 in)
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Diameter 17.8 cm (7 in)
Weight 157 kg (345 lb)
Speed Mach 4
Range 50-70 km (30-45 miles)
Propulsion Hercules/Aerojet solid-fueled rocket
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Originally posted by eagl
hahahahaha
:D
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Aim-120 Amraam cost $386,000 per unit
no cost on the r-77 but range is not that far Suntracker. You are talking about the r-77m1 that has not even seen production yet at least as far as I can tell.
The most recent Russian R-77 medium-range missiles (AA-12 "AMRAAMSKI") is similar to and in some respects equal to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles. The R-77 missile has an active radar finder and a maximim range of 90-100 kilometers (50 km more than AMRAAM) and flies at four times the speed of sound.
Specifications
Length 3.60 m
Body diameter 200 mm
Wingspan 0.35 m
Launch weight 175 kg
Warhead 30 kg HE fragmentation
Fuze Active radar
Guidance Inertial, command and active radar
Propulsion Solid propellant
Range 50 km
Platforms Su-33, Su-34, Su-35, Su-37, MiG-33, MiG-31M, Yak-141
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Range is a factor when attacking targets with very limited evasion capability (big-fat-slow cargo planes ...). Long shots against fighters are a nonsense.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Range is a factor when attacking targets with very limited evasion capability (big-fat-slow cargo planes ...). Long shots against fighters are a nonsense.
Or, much more practically, an AWACS.
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The truly effective range of a missle is well between min and
max. First you want to give the missile time to correct after
launch. Second you want to make sure the motor and hydraulic
squibs still function, so the best "kill" range would be roughly
in the middle.
On the F-4, the gunsight reflected this capability using the
Allowable Steering Error circle, which grew in size as the range
went to midrange, then shrank again as the range went to long.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Or, much more practically, an AWACS.
The AWACS will detect the bandit well before being into weapons range. Meanwhile the AWACS can flee, use its own ECM or even better, flee while sending several friendlies to intercept the bandit.
Hunting AWACS are very risky bussines with very little chances of success.
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For example, a Rook AWACS would flee for safety while a Bish AWACS would charge the enemy. Of course, as soon as they get close, about a hundred other Bishops would climb, suddenly appearing on radar, just in time to swarm the lone attacker.
Not that this would guarentee killing it...
I imagine a Knight AWACS would neither charge nor flee, they'd just fly parallel to the contact while messaging how predictable the behavior of the attacking rook or bish fighter is over channel 1 right until they were destroyed, then they'd complain that none of their teammates were worth the pixels their fighter planes were made of because they didn't bother to help out.
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R-77 is more maneuverable due to its potatoe masher fins.
The R-77m1 is scheduled to enter service in 2005. This year.
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GS I'm just curious but do you have access to the 34M technical order or maybe some other undisclosed TO that the US Military doesn't?
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Originally posted by SunTracker
The R-77m1 is scheduled to enter service in 2005. This year.
Like I said I could find no info that said it had actually reached production. To the contrary I did see something that said it was doubtful that it would be produced this year given the financial situation in russia. Perhaps you could provide a link?
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Interesting question - are missiles shielded from EMP? The reason I ask - a high value asset like an E3 or Russian A-50 would be a prime canidate for a DEW defense like an Impulse Radar (or HERF gun). Blast in the direction of the imbound missile, fry the electronics - and its a dumb fire rocket in a Mach 4 descent.
Simple concept - thoughts?
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Interesting question - are missiles shielded from EMP? The reason I ask - a high value asset like an E3 or Russian A-50 would be a prime canidate for a DEW defense like an Impulse Radar (or HERF gun). Blast in the direction of the imbound missile, fry the electronics - and its a dumb fire rocket in a Mach 4 descent.
Simple concept - thoughts?
Wolf
I'm sure they are shielded but it's hard to say to what degree. Also there's no knowledge how big pulses those weapons create.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Meanwhile the AWACS can flee, use its own ECM or even better, flee while sending several friendlies to intercept the bandit.
Except home-on-jam missiles aren't particularly new invention by todays stantards.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Interesting question - are missiles shielded from EMP? The reason I ask - a high value asset like an E3 or Russian A-50 would be a prime canidate for a DEW defense like an Impulse Radar (or HERF gun). Blast in the direction of the imbound missile, fry the electronics - and its a dumb fire rocket in a Mach 4 descent.
Simple concept - thoughts?
Wolf
Sure yes. But not too much. Because the full shielding is impossible and it will rise the cost to unbelieveable points. Another interesting thing: How will feel E3 or A-50 after this "ping"? As I understand, EMP can not be modulated like usual weapon. Anyway it will be spherical. So you need in first: deliver it to intercept point and in second: activate it in safe range from AWACS.
Another one. Today we showed counter-sniper laser device on Abu-Dabi show. It's fully automatical. You are pressing the knob and the system begin tracking all optic systems like sniper optics or tank optics. And then it's sending high-power laser emission to the target. Sure it's not killing. But it can blind sniper or tank crewmember. Do you use optics refraction analizing in your counter-sniper devices?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Except home-on-jam missiles aren't particularly new invention by todays stantards.
An AWACS can track targets from MUCH further out then the engagement range of any air to air missile. Even the Phoenix needed to be well withing AWACS range of a modern platform to reach its target.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
R-77 is more maneuverable due to its potatoe masher fins.
can you show me the pic of "potato masher" fins? :D
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Originally posted by tikky
can you show me the pic of "potato masher" fins? :D
here is a representation
http://www.tayyareci.com/rusfuzeleri/aa12.htm
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I don't know about AMRAAMs, but a history of the Sidewinder I read talked about the upcoming AIM-9X having vectored thrust which gives even more maneuverability then the potato mashers.
Do either of the missiles in this discussion use vectoring?
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, not that I'm aware of. I have NATO-secret clearance, but as you're probably aware of those things are on the "need to know".
Have noticed from your other posts you seem knowledgable in these areas. Makes sense to me now. So what do you do for a living? Looks like we may have some things in common.
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In this day and time, having the internet is as good as, or surpasses, having a Nato secret clearance.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
In this day and time, having the internet is as good as, or surpasses, having a Nato secret clearance.
Level of clearance is only as good as your level of "need to know". That is where the line in the sand is drawn. Doesnt matter if you have the highest clearance ever you still have to have need to know to get access.
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cc GS. Just wondering considering the top speeds of our missiles are classified. And anyone with access to that wouldn't be posting it on a forum such as this. I also have a NATO Secret clearance with access to these tech orders.
RTR pull up anything that is supposedly classified on an F-15 A-E and show me where it is on the internet. I'd really like to see such information.
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Ever have a chance to visit fas.org?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm for example
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Chairboy been there...Nothing there is even close to being classified.
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try globalsecurity.org Pike knows his stuff
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Been there too Raider. Still nothing close to classified on either sites.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Chairboy been there...Nothing there is even close to being classified.
There's no great way to prove or disprove whether a site has classified data. If fas.org did, it would take someone with access to the real data to verify whether or not it's correct. Doing so would, of course, be tantamount to violating the secrecy agreement on its own, so... this is a pointless discussion.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Been there too Raider. Still nothing close to classified on either sites.
I wouldnt ever give a link to anything that is known classified. Just saying Pike has good reliable info.
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Chairboy I do have access to such information and if I did find such a place they wouldn't be on the internet for very long. Any such violation has to be reported to the appropriate agencies. A site posting such information would be crashed and all computer systems directly involved with the the transfer of such information would be destroyed.
My comments were to show that RTRs comment of having the internet is as good as having a NATO secret clearance. Not everyone with NATO secret clearances have access to classified information but the majority of us do and your not going to find what we know or have access to on the internet.
Raider if such a site even existed it's your duty to report it in the first place. But again reason for my comments are stated above.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Chairboy I do have access to such information and if I did find such a place they wouldn't be on the internet for very long. Any such violation has to be reported to the appropriate agencies.
Fair enough, makes sense.
Originally posted by Cobra412
A site posting such information would be crashed and all computer systems directly involved with the the transfer of such information would be destroyed.
uhhh.... what happens next? Do the government zaptechs come in with their neurojack interfaces and crack the 'ICE' of the offending computers?
I call bullcrap, the government would be involved in taking the website down, but not how you describe it.
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btw Global security has one of our birds on it's site under the photos. It was the first ever 5x JDAM drop by an F-15E. Last photo on the bottom left of the photos page. They also have a photo of Glamorous Glennis on there which is one of our birds. Fourth row down to the far right.
I even worked aircraft 239 when it was stationed at another base prior to going to Alaska.
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Chairboy you'd be surprised to what happens to computer systems that have transferred such information. I have intimate knowledge of such an incident where all the computers involved (atleast 15 computers across the United States) that were shutdown from the LANs and whiped clean.
The US Government can and will do as they please when it comes to such sites. Any information that is a threat to National Security will be dealt with swiftly. Compromise of any type of information like this travels extremely fast through the intel world. Especially when the information is extremely critical.
Perfect example of how quick these things work is when the Orion was forced down. Anyone in my line of work can tell you that from the time the incident was reported to be in progress to the time we followed protocol for a comprise was very quick.
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GS I'm sure something like that is a bit more involved than a server based in the US. To be honest I don't have the first clue what they'd do in a situation like that. I highly doubt they'd make it known to anyone let alone to the leaders of that country that such a site existed.
That would be a time to either claim nothing and change the system involved if possible. Or they could very well do just like the hackers do now. There are people who are trained to do such a thing in the military and in other government agencies. They purposely probe systems for leaks. There are pretty strict standards when it comes to how we deal with setting up a classified computer system and how information is transferred across such a system. I deal with a few different electronic transfer devices on a daily basis. They are sure to let us know if we are out of regs.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Cobra, what do you do when the classified info is on a web-server in say ... Moscow?
I don't think it will stay there for public use ;-)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Cobra, what do you do when the classified info is on a web-server in say ... Moscow?
Jam it, ping it, freeze it? A cyberspace attack?
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Send out the Ninja?
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By your logic, "Aviation Week" would be targetted for instant nuclear demolition, considering how often they've ferreted out classified info. Hence the name 'Aviation Leak'.
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Do have any links to news stating that Aviation Week had previously disclosed classified material that hadn't been released by the US Government?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why wouldn't it? I am of course talking about a Russian (or other non-US) aviation fan-site run by a civilian, not a government site.
A piece of classified info gets loose by accident in the US and is published on some aviation-buff's website. The US government shuts the site down, but not before the info has been copied by several foreign aviation related sites.
And therein lays the problem of controlling info on the web.
US goverment. Or other non-Russian goverment can't switch out anything anywhere. To disable site in Moscow, you will need the special permission from court. From Moscow region court in territory of wich there is that server. You can be senator or president of US, but you'll need that permission anyway. It will take from 1 week to 3-4 months, depending on region and judge.
But. If guys from FSB will found it, they'll take it all. And they will close it for public. 1. They can take court permission in 30-60 minutes. 2. They are not interested if someone, not aviation enthuasist, but a potentional terrorist will get this information. Internet is free territory, but some regulations are needed. Exactly when it can affect weapon security. And I think, if some information wich can affect our weapon systems will come up in USA, FBI will work very fast too. Both countries have the same problems with terrorism and weapons security. So our special departments must help each other.
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Originally posted by Estel
US goverment. Or other non-Russian goverment can't switch out anything anywhere. To disable site in Moscow, you will need the special permission from court. From Moscow region court in territory of wich there is that server. You can be senator or president of US, but you'll need that permission anyway. It will take from 1 week to 3-4 months, depending on region and judge.
But. If guys from FSB will found it, they'll take it all. And they will close it for public. 1. They can take court permission in 30-60 minutes. 2. They are not interested if someone, not aviation enthuasist, but a potentional terrorist will get this information. Internet is free territory, but some regulations are needed. Exactly when it can affect weapon security. And I think, if some information wich can affect our weapon systems will come up in USA, FBI will work very fast too. Both countries have the same problems with terrorism and weapons security. So our special departments must help each other.
ORRR you could just hack it and disable/destroy it. But being that the info is already known and will just come out somewhere else makes it kinda irrelevant.
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Originally posted by Raider179
ORRR you could just hack it and disable/destroy it.
"Just hack it", eh?
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Cobra, you'll never find an admission like that. In fact, you will probably never even hear a person with a security clearance positively state that Aviation Leak has ever published any classified material of any kind, ever, because such an admission would in itself be a security leak.
But now that you've asked, I gotta report you. pbbththth.
:eek:
:D
Seriously, I quit reading military web sites because there were a lot of people asking seemingly innocent questions, then occasionally tossing in an intelligent leading question about something I can't or won't discuss. A few years ago, some kid asked about 15 F-15E aircrew some random questions that were innocent enough by themselves, but when put together let him put up a fairly convincing internet persona claiming to be an F-15E pilot. He had details of deployments, dates, locations, photos, and the dumbprettythang even posted up names belonging to the faces in the pictures. All in all it was a pretty good security breach that put a lot of people and their families at risk.
So you're not going to find many people who really know about such things talking about or confirming what should or should not have been said or printed by who, because even unclassified details can result in sensitive conclusions when put together correctly.
It's not unusual for a USAF officer to write a paper in his spare time based on 100% unclassifed information, and then the paper gets classifed immediately after submission because the analysis and conclusions crossed the line.
So yea, Aviation Leak is interesting and lots of military guys subscribe, but good luck finding out what is real and what is merely a repeat of a company's sales brochure.
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There is a guy on this bbs, who when he was 12 or 13 years old, asked an F-15 pilot what he thought about having his engine power restricted. The pilot never heard of this, and when he went and checked, it turned out his F-15 engines had power restrictions on them. He was amazed that a 12 year old kid knew stuff about his plane that he didnt.
Maybe someone can identify the original poster.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
There is a guy on this bbs, who when he was 12 or 13 years old, asked an F-15 pilot what he thought about having his engine power restricted. The pilot never heard of this, and when he went and checked, it turned out his F-15 engines had power restrictions on them. He was amazed that a 12 year old kid knew stuff about his plane that he didnt.
Maybe someone can identify the original poster.
That was me SunTracker.
It was information I had learned as a kid and asked an F-15 pilot at Luke AFB. I don't know if it was classified information though......but I know the pilot never heard of it until I asked him. He later confirmed it was true and was surprized that I had known that.
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lol, they must have done something to me.....
I used to be like a walking aircraft enclopedia and now I can't even tie my own shoes.
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Eagl I know what your saying. Chairboy said he knew that a particular site leaked information. If it had and he knew about it then it must have been made public. That's all I was getting at.
I'm an Eaglekeeper here and have heard enough bs posted on the net. Especially when it comes to our avionics.
Nuke many who deal with the our motors know that PW limited their motors. They don't run even close to what their maximum capability is. It was a big thing back in the day between GEs motors and PWs for the F-16. GE didn't limit their motors capabilities and PW did.
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Actually, I'm surprised you don't know what Aviation Week is. It's not a 'site', it's a magazine that's regularily disclosed classified information over the past decades, usually months before the USAF or Navy does.
You can be the big hero if you run to your CO and tell him/her that you just found out that Aviation Week has leaked classified info. They will be astonished, I'm sure.
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Cobra, this was back more than 25 years ago......when I was a kid.
Like I said, I don't think it was secret....but the pilots didn't know that Luke AFB was reducing the power output.
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Chairboy and I asked where and when since you know of such an incident and know that it's happenend alot in the past. I could claim the same thing when it comes to the local and national media. They constantly leak information that is considered classified. They leak everytime we deploy, approximate body count, equipment count and from what bases. Troop movements of this kind are considered classified too. Is this the kind of info your speaking of or is it indepth system based? Leaking that a new system is coming out but having very little knowledge of how it operates isn't much. Certain systems have in the past been considered classified. If you even mentioned their acronym you could be in violation. Overtime it's been seen that it doesn't matter if they know the name of the system. If they don't know exactly what it does or critical information such as frequencies then it means little to nothing.
Even the F-117 was put on the front page of Popular Science before the majority of the nation even knew of its existance. Had it not been for the media and their nosing around military crashes the F-117 probably would have been kept secret for even longer. All these agencies do is jeopordize our National Security and men and women in uniform so they can have a front page story. It's amazing how selfish some of them are. We are the one thing that is standing between them and some rogue nation trying to invade or attack our homeland. Yet it doesn't phase them one bit to leak such information regardless how basic it may seem.
The downfall of the United States of America will be because of those within. Their ignorance will cost us and has cost us in the past. The media should for once in their life think before they speak and understand how they can and do put our nation and our military members in jeapordy from things they think they are privy to.
Nuke I hear ya. And it wasn't necessarily Luke that was doing it. The motors are designed and operate that way. The computers basically govern the output of the motor on some variants just like they do in cars. It's to keep the life of the engines up. We'd run into the same problems as some other nations with their engine designs. They don't limit them and in the end have major failures or alot of down time due to damaged motors.