Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: straffo on February 15, 2005, 02:36:32 PM
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As I'm waiting for some book about the beast * I've a little question.
What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?
* Sorry for the P38 fan I had to complete my Russian and British book library first :p
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The super or turbo chargers for each engine took up alot of room, requiring booms to house them.
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Ask fokker who did it before kelly
:D
(http://www.grebbeberg.nl/bibliotheek/bewapening/gfx/fokker_g1.jpg)
img fom http://www.grebbeberg.nl
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He probably put the vertical stabilizers/rudder in the prop's airflow to retain control at speeds that would not produce sufficient airspeed over the rudders.
-SW
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Originally posted by straffo
As I'm waiting for some book about the beast * I've a little question.
What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?
* Sorry for the P38 fan I had to complete my Russian and British book library first :p
No need to apologize. Fly what you like, and read about what you like.
The twin tail design was chosen because it made it easy to house all of the needed engine and turbocharger pieces, and allowed the guns and pilot to be in the center. it was the most simple and efficient way to get two engines on one plane, which was what they needed for high altitude interceptor use. The P-38 was originally designed to be a high altitude interceptor, and not a fighter plane.
As a side note, which book did you purchase?
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I choose this one for starting :
Warren M. BODIE
THE LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTNING
Dunno if it's the better but it was availlable and I've to start reading about Us plane now for a change :)
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Originally posted by straffo
I choose this one for starting :
Warren M. BODIE
THE LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTNING
Dunno if it's the better but it was availlable and I've to start reading about Us plane now for a change :)
It is likely the best book on the subject. Bodie worked for Lockheed until about the mid eighties, as an engineer. The book was written with input from all of those involved with the P-38 who were still living. Bodie is also a founding member of the Split S Society if I recall correctly. I used to correspond with him, back when I was involved with David Mason's project on Major Thomas B. McGuire. As Widewing can attest, Bodie is a crotchety old cuss, but well versed in the subjects he writes on.
I do hope you enjoy the book.:cool:
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Savage is absolutely right. Bodie's book is the best out there on the 38.
Now when and if you get around to 38's in combat, look up anything written by John Stanaway. His 38 pilot and unit histories are some of the best.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Savage is absolutely right. Bodie's book is the best out there on the 38.
Now when and if you get around to 38's in combat, look up anything written by John Stanaway. His 38 pilot and unit histories are some of the best.
Dan/Slack
Yes, indeed, Stanaway has some incredible material that shows the true story regarding the pilots and units, and how they performed in combat.
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Good choice Straffo, it is a GREAT book, my copy has been read so many times it is close to falling apart.
LOL they are right to , Bodie is a crotchety old guy, I send him an email telling him how much I loved the book and we exchanged emails for a few weeks. Interesting man, tad easy to offend though lol.
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I remember seeing a .jpg (probably on this BBS) of Kelly Johnson's initial ideas for a twin engine interceptor drawn on what looks like maybe a bar napkin. If anyone knows....hey i found it it, TY google
(http://www.aerofiles.com/p38-doodle.jpg)
Personally I like #3
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Hi Bunch,
>I remember seeing a .jpg (probably on this BBS) of Kelly Johnson's initial ideas for a twin engine interceptor drawn on what looks like maybe a bar napkin. If anyone knows....hey i found it it, TY google
Thanks, that's fascinating! :-)
2 and 3 were probably out immediately - despite the aerodynamic advantges, the drive train is extremely difficult to get right. Dornier, who was fascinated with the same concept from WW1 on, built an experimental sea plane in the 1920s that tried to exploit the advantages of such a layout (which wasn't a success).
6 was probably out due to the difficulty of bailing out of such a plane. (Dornier's final, successful implementation in the Do 335 provided a jettisonable airscrew as well as an ejection seat.)
5 was the Twin Mustang idea, basically sound. The out of centre seating might have been considered problematic - at least, it was in WW2 Germany until flight tests proved it was perfectly OK :-)
1 is entirely conventional, and I have to admit that I don't see an obvious advantage for option 2, which Kelly finally chose. There are many high-performance twins with layout 1, so the reason for his decision would be very interesting indeed :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Good choice Straffo, it is a GREAT book, my copy has been read so many times it is close to falling apart.
LOL they are right to , Bodie is a crotchety old guy, I send him an email telling him how much I loved the book and we exchanged emails for a few weeks. Interesting man, tad easy to offend though lol.
The way to handle Warren is to yell at him... a lot. He can be a genuine pain in the keister at times. Trust me, I co-wrote a series of articles with him a few years ago.
It finally got to the point that I stopped working with him to avoid the pissing contests.
Don't get me wrong, Warren is a national treasure. No one I have met can approach him on American aviation knowledge. He has well over 100,000 original photos and negatives, many of which he took himself. He's well into his 80s now (82 or 83), and as busy as ever. He's beaten cancer twice and is as feisty as hell. I'd rather neuter a bobcat in a phone booth than listen to his temper tantrums tho.... :)
Warren lives in western North Carolina, near the border with Georgia, on a lake in a big house, which he shares with his dog. His wife passed some years ago, and Warren still mourns for her.
He drives a Jaguar XK-8, a sedan and a pickup. His vision has been giving him trouble and he only has one truly functional eye. But that doesn't even slow him, much less stop him. He has a strict work ethic and will be writing as long as he can breathe.
Bodie is his own publisher (Widewing Publications). He does his own layouts and design (assisted by Bob Boyd, his graphic artist). He's a very talented man, with more ambition than guys 1/4 his age. About two years ago he picked up another co-writer and they produced at least two books together. If I know Warren, the co-writer does most of the first-draft writing, with Warren editing, providing the photos (which is 50% of the books) and writes the captions, which are often hundreds of words long.
Yeah, he's easy to offend, but I think it's because he's a bit insecure since his wife died. Don't let his gruff manner fool you, he's a softy at heart and generous almost to a fault. If he likes you, he'll do almost anything for you. If he doesn't like you, there will be no mistaking it.
Buy his books, they're worth every penny. In fact, his P-47 book is selling used for 4 times it's publication price. You can great deals on used Bodie books at Alibris.com, but finding the P-47 book is difficult, and expensive.
My regards,
Widewing (now you know where I borrowed the name)
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That's as good and fair a description of Warren as you could ask for. It was Widewing who first put me in touch with Warren, I've since lost contact with him. Warren has his reasons for his temperment. I'm sure he figures he has a very finite amount of time left, and wants to get everything done that he can. So you can really understand when he gets short regarding some subjects, he doesn't feel he has the time left to waste. I can admire him for that. He is truly as good a man as you'll find. He also feels he is doing something that will never be done if he does not get it done. He's desperately trying to get the full story of the USAAC/USAAF in World War II in writing and published. He's not pulling any punches, and he's not playing any favorites, he's telling it like it was. You really can't go wrong with Warren's books, because Warren hates being wrong.
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LOL Widewing, I would say your right on target, hehe I paid 80 bucks for a slightly damaged copy of the p-47 book.
Boy does he not like hollywood types.
Had some insite into the Jeff ethels death, and some on him as a man, not very flatering stuff.
I am going to have to check to see if I still have the emails somewere. I hope I do, I have meaning to drop him a email and see how he is doing.
Colorfull old guy, the way old guys should be!
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It should be noted that Warren had financial and business disagreements with Jeff, and those do tend to color his view of Jeff. Also, to be fair, Jeff is not the only one who Warren had those issues with, but he is of course dead, and unable to speak for himself. There is, or was, a lawsuit between Warren and Jeff's family as well.
What Warren once told me most aggravated him was an interview on the PBS program Nova, where he felt Jeff took too much credit for work he and Warren did together. One should note that those programs are often severely edited, and what Jeff said may have been edited out of context, and some of what he said may have been edited out completely.
Regarding Jeff's untimely death, and the circumstances that surrounded it, Warren had some very interesting things to say. He placed a lot of blame on the plane itself, and how it was modified. He did not agree with much of the FAA investigation, and much of what he said makes sense. Last I heard, Bruce Pruett, who owned the plane and decided on the modifications, was suing Erickson Sky Crane and Jack Erickson over the loss of the plane.
It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38.
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"Regarding Jeff's untimely death, and the circumstances that surrounded it, Warren had some very interesting things to say. He placed a lot of blame on the plane itself, and how it was modified. He did not agree with much of the FAA investigation, and much of what he said makes sense. Last I heard, Bruce Pruett, who owned the plane and decided on the modifications, was suing Erickson Sky Crane and Jack Erickson over the loss of the plane.
It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38."
He mentioned that the plane was sold for scrap when I talked to him and it seemed fishy, I think, and mind you these emails were a year ago or more that he was implying the owner had played with the insurance and the insurance company ordered it destroyed, or something.
he mentioned to me as well he thought the FAA saying pilot error was wrong and he thought he plane was burning, and I think he even mentioned jeffs jacket was burned?
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Okay. Here is what I've learned about it over the past few years.
First, Pruett had Erickson restore the plane Jeff was killed in, and in return he gave Erickson the plane now known as "Tangerine" which was the name of Jeff's father's P-38 in World War II.
It was Pruett who decided that the fuel tanks and radiators in his plane be modified or replaced. The entire fuel system was modified. The modifications were done in accordance to Pruett's wishes.
According to the FAA report, the plane fell almost straight down, moving less than two feet after impact, and was spinning slowly at the time. In fact, one tree penetrated the wing, and was not sheared away by the plane's movement (this is the wing that was cut away during salvage operations).
Now, this plane fell straight down, but Jeff was found several yards away, face down, with some evidence of fire damage to his clothes, and part of the seat supposedly attached. This implies that he was thrown out of the plane straight forward, despite the plane impacting the ground with practically no forward movement.
Also, the FAA states the nacelle of the plane was partially consumed by fire, supposedly a post crash fire (how did Jeff sustain evidence of fire damage if he was thrown from the plane on impact, and the fire was post crash?), and yet the engine stopped due to fuel starvation. The hydraulic fluid is not likely to ignite, some sort of fuel or oil had to be ignited.
The FAA states the fuel switches were in the wrong position. Jeff was quite aware of the difficulty in operating the fuel system of the P-38. Did Jeff simply panic, or was he searching for fuel to start the engine, or was he trying to shut the fuel off to stop a fire? Only Jeff knows, and we can't ask him.
Warren said that he felt Jeff was either desperately looking for fuel, or possibly trying to shut the fuel off to keep it out of the cockpit. He said that it was likely that there was a fire in flight due to a fuel leak, and the fuel went to the center nacelle due to the dihedral of the wings. He also said he felt Jeff could not have been thrown from the plane, but that he jumped or tried to jump to escape the fire when he could not get the fire or the plane under control.
I am unaware of any settlement Pruett got from insurance, and I am also unaware of any settlement of the lawsuit he had against Erickson. Like Warren, I find it very odd indeed that Pruett had the plane completely destroyed and sold for scrap, considering both the value of the plane, and the fact that it would provide the evidence of Erickson's guilt in the loss of the plane. I'd really like to know what ever came of all of it.
In any case, it was a truly tragic loss of both a great plane and a great person, despite his issues with Warren, Jeff was a great person, and an asset to aviation both past and present.
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Originally posted by straffo
What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?
I think this extract from LOCKHEED HORIZONS Issue Twenty Three provides the answers to your questions, and the source of the sketch posted previously... Note that the image posted previously appears to have been cropped to omit the initials of the author.
"A number of configurations were conceived by the Lockheed design team to meet the single-place twin-engine requirements of Project X608, Figure 5. (note the initials):
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Model22.jpg)
The most conventional arrangement placed each of the engines in wing-mounted nacelles, concept 1. Layouts indicated that the internal placement of the many elements of the propulsion, gear, and armament systems could not be arranged in a manner that used the airplane internal volume to best advantage.
Placement of the two engines in the fuselage along with the pilot led to three other configurations, concepts 2, 3 and 6. Two of these designs used gear boxes and drive shafts so that the propellers were mounted on the wing, either in a tractor or pusher propeller arrangement. Complexities of gearing and shafting and anticipated problems of engine cooling eliminated these ideas. Concept 6 provided for a tractor propeller in the forward fuselage combined with a pusher propeller at the rear of the fuselage. Complementing this arrangement were two tail booms spanned at the rear by the horizontal tail. Problems with rear-engine cooling and the propeller strike hazards related to pilot escape gave reason to discard this design.
The twin-boom arrangement had attractive advantages, so two other alternatives, concepts 4 and 5, were laid out for study. The design which placed the pilot in a fuselage pod along the airplane centerline was found to be the most preferred of these two designs. Concept 4 became the final, most logical choice mainly because the boom arrangement nicely accommodated all the elements of each powerplant, allowed room for landing gear stowage, and at the same time provided proper aircraft balance. Behind the counter-rotating Curtiss 3-bladed propellers and the V-1710 Allison engines there was room for the inlet scoops and the General Electric turbosuperchargers and cooling scoops. The main landing gear wheels could be retracted be hind the superchargers, just in front of the Prestone radiators. In addition, there was space for air induction and cooling ducts, as well as room for other aircraft systems components.
In this arrangement, the propeller slip stream would provide ram air for cooling, and increased air flow over the two rudders so as to enhance direction control. The hot Prestone coolant was removed from the cockpit area. All the internal fuel was contained within the wing. Maximum efficiency in the use of airplane volume was achieved and favorable airplane fineness ratio and low frontal area offered minimized parasite drag."
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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And number one turns out to be the Mossie and number 5 turns out to be the F82 :)
Dan/Slack
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Virg
Do you have any idea what was done to the fuel system and radiators? And why? I am just curious at this point.
How many hours did Jeff have in the P-38? Is it true this happend right after he made the roaring glory video and that video flight was his first p-38 flight?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Virg
Do you have any idea what was done to the fuel system and radiators? And why? I am just curious at this point.
How many hours did Jeff have in the P-38? Is it true this happend right after he made the roaring glory video and that video flight was his first p-38 flight?
According to everything I've read, the fuel tanks were removed and replaced with smaller aluminum tanks, with the leading edge tanks deleted, it was cheap and expedient. I read that the Prestone's were replaced because the replacements were cheaper than real ones or repairs. The plane was supposedly destined for the Smithsonian.
According to Jack Erickson, Jeff had about 8-10 hours before the accident, mostly in Jack's plane. They were practicing for a trip to the annual P-38 Association reunion.
I think it happened about a month or so later than the video.
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So they cheaped out cause it was going to be a static display eventualy?
Hey do you know if there was a p-38 that crashed in England a few years back and what the story was on that?
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Thanks for the comment guys.
Look like I've to print this thread and add it to the book :)
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38.
The aircraft in question was not scrapped.
The insurance company had a bulldozer driven across the rear nacelles at the center section production breaks to "remove the possibility of it flying again".
The aircraft still exists, and will be restored when Mr. Pruitt decides.
As for lawsuits, I do know that Jeff's family sued Mr. Pruitt and that he has become very bitter about the whole issue.
The reasons I have been told for the crash are that the fuel selector broke at a joint on the selector shaft, and that it was impossible to switch tanks at that time as you can not reach the selector shaft belw the cockpit floor.
As for aluminum tanks, they were a logical replacement as the rubber was not available at the time, and were manufactured in accordance with approved standards at the time. It is tragic that Jeff Ethell died. Extremely. But it also tragic that a man like Pruitt was treated the way he was by Jeff's family as well.
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Hi Badboy,
Thanks for the quote!
However, all of the quoted advantages could have been achieved with a conventional twin layout just as well as with the twin-boom layout. (For example, twin rudders like the Me 110's would have provided air flow over the rudders just as in the twin boom layout.)
I suspect the twin boom layout was attractive for its lower structural weight rather than for aerodynamic advantages.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
So they cheaped out cause it was going to be a static display eventualy?
Hey do you know if there was a p-38 that crashed in England a few years back and what the story was on that?
That crash was due to pilot error, maneuvering too close to the ground, a wing tip dug in and the P-38 cartwheeled into a ball.
You can get some background on that P-38 from Jack Ilfrey's book, "Happy Jack's Go Buggy". I described its fate in volume 4, number 5 of Airpower International magazine (published by Strike Publications, Queensland, Australia).
When first introduced to the public at Duxford, the restored P-38J was painted in Ilfrey's colors (79th FS, 20th FG). Jack was invited to the event with the pilot actually wearing Jack's ancient RAF flying gloves. This occured on July 4th 1992. The crash occuring in 1996 during the annual airshow, killing pilot Hoof Proudfoot. At that time the markings had been changed to "California Cutie", yet another 20th FG P-38J.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The aircraft in question was not scrapped.
The insurance company had a bulldozer driven across the rear nacelles at the center section production breaks to "remove the possibility of it flying again".
The aircraft still exists, and will be restored when Mr. Pruitt decides.
As for lawsuits, I do know that Jeff's family sued Mr. Pruitt and that he has become very bitter about the whole issue.
The reasons I have been told for the crash are that the fuel selector broke at a joint on the selector shaft, and that it was impossible to switch tanks at that time as you can not reach the selector shaft belw the cockpit floor.
As for aluminum tanks, they were a logical replacement as the rubber was not available at the time, and were manufactured in accordance with approved standards at the time. It is tragic that Jeff Ethell died. Extremely. But it also tragic that a man like Pruitt was treated the way he was by Jeff's family as well.
That is very interesting Bodhi. It does not at all match what I was told by people I talked to.
Have you seen the plane or pictures of it? I saw one picture of the crash site itself and the plane, but I have not seen it but once. A bulldozer (average bulldozer would be 6 to 8 FEET wide)driven over the rear sections of the tailbooms would likely destroy everything between the back of the engines and the horizontal and vertical stabilizers. The insurance company must have paid Pruett an incredible settlement for him to allow them to do that to the plane.
I was also told that Pruett wanted to wash his hands of the planes and all matters concerning them as soon as his suit with Erickson was settled.
I'm not aware of the lawsuit between Jeff's family and Bruce Pruett. I was aware that Pruett sued Jack Erickson. I take it Jeff's family is accusing Pruett of negligence of some sort.
Airport personnel told at least 2 P-38 pilots who went to see it that it had been cut up into small pieces and sold for salvage, the day after the FAA released the wreckage.
The FAA report ignored the condition of the fuel selector switches and only reported what position they were in. No mention was made in the reports I read of whether either switch was working properly. The only mention was that they had pins in them to prevent them from reaching the positions for the leading edge tanks, that they were set in the reserve position, and that the drop tanks were disconnected.
All in all Bodhi, you have some very interesting information, I'd like to "hear" more. Thanks.
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Widewing
interesting, I thought I had seen video of it going in, (the england one) And it look like a highspeed flat spin, but I could be remebering wrong.
I have Happy Jacks go buggy here somewere just have not read it yet.
Thanks for the info guys.
This has been a great thread.
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Actually, it was an aileron roll at too low an altitude. The normal routine called for a single aileron roll, but a second roll was done and a wingtip clipped the ground and it cartwheeled in. If you have been around long enough to remember the Kraits Squadron, originally from Air Warrior, like my unit, the 327th, you'll remember their current CO, a guy named Spiffy. If you contact Spiffy, he can put you in touch, maybe, with a member of their squad that was there and saw it. He once told me it was the only time he'd ever seen a P-38.
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The Ethell 38 crash accident report is online:
https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/nasdac/STAGE.NTSB_BRIEF_REPORT?EV_ID=20001208X08240&AC_VAR=FALSE&ENG_VAR=FALSE&INJ_VAR=FALSE&FT_VAR=FALSE&OCC_VAR=FALSE&WTHR_VAR=FALSE&PNARR_VAR=FALSE&FNARR_VAR=FALSE&CNARR_VAR=FALSE&NARR_VAR=
Always wondered what his father Erv Ethell thought as he was there to witness the crash. A tragic irony that Erv the P38 Combat vet and instructor would lose his son in a 38 crash :(
Dan/Slack
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I saw a picture of the crash scene, once, and never found it again. I wish I could find the pictures from the report somewhere.
I know a couple of the P-38 pilots who knew Jeff, and who he corresponded with before he flew the P-38. All were stunned, and deeply affected.
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(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/img001.jpg)
Scanned this.
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Here is a sad sight
(http://www.p38assn.org/images/p38s/graveyard.jpg)
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Worse than sad, it's downright criminal. The cheapest the government ever sold them was $1250, they paid over $100K.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
That is very interesting Bodhi. It does not at all match what I was told by people I talked to.
Have you seen the plane or pictures of it? I saw one picture of the crash site itself and the plane, but I have not seen it but once. A bulldozer (average bulldozer would be 6 to 8 FEET wide)driven over the rear sections of the tailbooms would likely destroy everything between the back of the engines and the horizontal and vertical stabilizers. The insurance company must have paid Pruett an incredible settlement for him to allow them to do that to the plane.
I was also told that Pruett wanted to wash his hands of the planes and all matters concerning them as soon as his suit with Erickson was settled.
I'm not aware of the lawsuit between Jeff's family and Bruce Pruett. I was aware that Pruett sued Jack Erickson. I take it Jeff's family is accusing Pruett of negligence of some sort.
Airport personnel told at least 2 P-38 pilots who went to see it that it had been cut up into small pieces and sold for salvage, the day after the FAA released the wreckage.
All in all Bodhi, you have some very interesting information, I'd like to "hear" more. Thanks.
Virgil,
I have seen the aircraft back in 2001 or 2002, can not remember which time I was out there. Anyways, the aircraft is in very sad shape, and is parts salvagable only. I can not release it's location as I was asked not to by the owner when I was dealing with him.
The reason the insurance company attempted to destroy the aircraft was because a settlement was paid. At that point the aircraft belonged to them. For them it was smart to destroy it then sell it as scrap (that way they could never lose money on it again), which they did do, with the former owner getting first dibs on the purchase.
Will it fly again, it's possible, but I highly highly doubt it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Worse than sad, it's downright criminal. The cheapest the government ever sold them was $1250, they paid over $100K.
Those are the Phillipine birds, and if folks in the warbird world are to be believed, there is a recovery effort underway right now that has found some of those 38s that were buried after the war.
Dan/Slack
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IGNORE THE FOKKER !!
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Virgil,
I have seen the aircraft back in 2001 or 2002, can not remember which time I was out there. Anyways, the aircraft is in very sad shape, and is parts salvagable only. I can not release it's location as I was asked not to by the owner when I was dealing with him.
The reason the insurance company attempted to destroy the aircraft was because a settlement was paid. At that point the aircraft belonged to them. For them it was smart to destroy it then sell it as scrap (that way they could never lose money on it again), which they did do, with the former owner getting first dibs on the purchase.
Will it fly again, it's possible, but I highly highly doubt it.
I would not ask you to divulge the whereabouts of the plane. I know the pictures I saw from the scene, before the guy butchered it during the recovery, and before the insurance company butchered it when they got their hands on it, showed that there was hope for it.
No longer than it flew, I'm sure the insurance company did lose money on it. However, I see no excuse, profit wise, for doing more damage to the plane. They could just as easily have sold the wreck for more money (the difference would likely have been a lot more than they paid to have the dozer drive over it), and never insured it again. The loss was already there, further damage causing the wreck to be worth less couldn't possibly save them any money, or prevent them from losing more. It's sort of like when the total a car, once it has been totaled, it can only be titled as a rebuild in most states. Crushing it will only mean you get less for what's left.
I too doubt it will ever fly again. I'm sure the stupidity of the insurance company nearly guaranteed that. I was told by people who knew Pruett that he was not interested in fixing it.
I had heard before that the story that it had been cut up for salvage was a cover up invented to keep Pruett from being hassled about it.
Several years ago, a guy named Rick Flaherty offered me a huge bunch of parts he claimed to own. It amounted to 3 wrecks, including Pete Sherman's plane, but lacked engines and most all of the center nacelles were completely gone. The price was low, $70K, and he said he could talk to Pruett and thought he could get that wreck and sell it to me, but nothing ever came of it. My wife's bout with cancer ended that dream less than a year later.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Those are the Phillipine birds, and if folks in the warbird world are to be believed, there is a recovery effort underway right now that has found some of those 38s that were buried after the war.
Dan/Slack
Dan,
You may remember that back in 2001, I got involved with a former USAF fighter pilot named David Mason, who was pursuing the wreck of McGuire's plane, and wanting to write the comprehensive story of what happened. This was halted by 11 September 2001, although we'd made great progress, and I had three P-38 pilots involved in the story, along with Warren Bodie. David eventually published some stuff, but it was pretty one sided stuff from Thropp, who evidently had an axe to grind with Weaver. David also eventually found the crash site, and the Philipino farmer who recovered McGuire's body and hid it from the Japanese.
David also eventually became involved with recovery efforts at Clark Field, however, I've not heard of any real progress. Also I noticed recently there are rumors that there were P-38's buried near here, in Nashville, where the old Consolidated Vultee plant where 113 were built.
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Originally posted by Murdr
(http://www.p38assn.org/images/p38s/graveyard.jpg)
That's just another text book +Nomad squadron landing.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Those are the Phillipine birds, and if folks in the warbird world are to be believed, there is a recovery effort underway right now that has found some of those 38s that were buried after the war.
Dan/Slack
This kinda piques my curiousity. If any planes are recovered, even in pieces, are they salvage? Or does the US Gov. have a claim on them? Also, if there are currently recovery efforts, are they run or backed by US Gov funding, or are they private enterprises? If there is any information to narrow this down a bit I'd like to do some digging (figuratively anyway lol) to find out more. Not that I have any kind of connection like some of you seem to have with this kind of thing, its just personal curiousity.
Thanks!
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
IGNORE THE FOKKER !!
It's useless BUG, these are American P-38 fanatics and Fokker sounds to much like the infamous 'F-word'.
Besides, the G-1 was made of wood and only fought 4 days in service of a woefully unprepared air force (ours :D) unless you count war booty G-1's in Luftwaffe service as Zerstörer trainers. Besides, it's not American (did I say that already?) and not nearly as technologically advanced as the P-38.
It IS however the fastest and most technologically advanced fighter of pure Dutch design and manufacture. Have you ever seen the replica in Soesterberg? There's a D-21 there too. Did you ever read the G-1 book by Hugo Hooftman? It's rather primitive by todays standards but contains a wealth of information. I have an ex-library copy of it.
Regards,
Ronald
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
This kinda piques my curiousity. If any planes are recovered, even in pieces, are they salvage? Or does the US Gov. have a claim on them? Also, if there are currently recovery efforts, are they run or backed by US Gov funding, or are they private enterprises? If there is any information to narrow this down a bit I'd like to do some digging (figuratively anyway lol) to find out more. Not that I have any kind of connection like some of you seem to have with this kind of thing, its just personal curiousity.
Thanks!
USN lays claim to all their lost birds. USAF/USAAF declared them lost etc. I don't know the details and no one is sharing them as it's apparently being done 'quietly' as not to draw too much of a crowd. If you hang around the warbird boards, the topic comes up and the folks commenting on it seem credible.
Not US government backed though. Individuals with the bucks and the cooperation of the Phillipine Govt.
I'd like to know more too, but it's gone quiet lately. Supposadly photos of some of the first recovered are out there somewhere and considering they were buried they were not in horrible shape.
As with any warbird hunt, you always have to take it with a grain of salt of course as it could turn out to be zilch.
Dan/Slack
Who wishes he'd just win the lottery one time :)
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
This kinda piques my curiousity. If any planes are recovered, even in pieces, are they salvage? Or does the US Gov. have a claim on them? Also, if there are currently recovery efforts, are they run or backed by US Gov funding, or are they private enterprises? If there is any information to narrow this down a bit I'd like to do some digging (figuratively anyway lol) to find out more. Not that I have any kind of connection like some of you seem to have with this kind of thing, its just personal curiousity.
Thanks!
There was a similar case years ago. When the USAAF bulldozed and buried any aircraft, they surrendered any claim to them. Just like anything you place in the trash, you signal your surrender of any ownership claim.
My regards,
Widewing
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God I hate that pic of those junked 38s.
Could you imagine knowing your bird is on the pile.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
USN lays claim to all their lost birds. USAF/USAAF declared them lost etc. I don't know the details and no one is sharing them as it's apparently being done 'quietly' as not to draw too much of a crowd. If you hang around the warbird boards, the topic comes up and the folks commenting on it seem credible.
Not US government backed though. Individuals with the bucks and the cooperation of the Phillipine Govt.
I'd like to know more too, but it's gone quiet lately. Supposadly photos of some of the first recovered are out there somewhere and considering they were buried they were not in horrible shape.
As with any warbird hunt, you always have to take it with a grain of salt of course as it could turn out to be zilch.
Dan/Slack
Who wishes he'd just win the lottery one time :)
The USN has surrendered all claims to aircraft on land which is a recent development, those in water are still protected by them, although that is possible to beat with lots of money for lawyers.
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What I am really wondering about is the motivation for the people involved. Are they history buffs? Warbird lovers hoping to restore 1 or 2, or maybe more to the skies? Or are they looking for buried treasure (i.e. hope to dig up parts and sell them to get rich). Money is tight in the Philippines right now, and the economy is about to take a serious nosedive. I can easily see someone there figuring out how much people will pay for parts, or even partial planes if they can dig up anything in decent shape, and selling to the highest bidder after they are sure they have scavenged all they can thats useful.
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What is the total value in warbirds at the bottome of the English Chanel?
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Originally posted by bunch
What is the total value in warbirds at the bottome of the English Chanel?
Little different there, I'd think. Those would be considered the same as graves and I doubt anyone would ever get permission to mess with them (unless there was actually a NEED to, and even then there'd be alot of people watching and I doubt anyone would be allowed to make a profit off of them).
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Have you ever seen the replica in Soesterberg? There's a D-21 there too. Did you ever read the G-1 book by Hugo Hooftman? It's rather primitive by todays standards but contains a wealth of information. I have an ex-library copy of it.
Havent seen em yet its on the target list.
Still the bird looks good.
What would it have been if it had been further developed?
like beter engines 2x 900Hp isn't much and its guns 8x .303 changed into .50 or cannons.
i believe it had a bombbay.
the thought on the aircraft was pretty modern it could be used as anything.
true a multirole aircraft.
As sexy as a lightning
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Star, I've read at least a dozen books by gentlemen who went for an involuntary swim in the chanel & survived to write about it & I sort of assume most of those aircraft wouldn't have any skeletons in them
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Havent seen em yet its on the target list.
Still the bird looks good.
What would it have been if it had been further developed?
like beter engines 2x 900Hp isn't much and its guns 8x .303 changed into .50 or cannons.
i believe it had a bombbay.
the thought on the aircraft was pretty modern it could be used as anything.
true a multirole aircraft.
As sexy as a lightning
It WAS a truly multirole aircraft. I do not know if they had a genuine bomb bay (have to look it up), but they could be converted to light bombers as wel as reconaissance aircraft (with a third crew member).
Two versions of this bird existed, The 'A' (postwar designation) with Bristol Mercury engines (like the D-21) en d the 'B" with Wasp engines. The 'B' was slightly smaller and originally meant as an export aircraft. They were hastily pressed into Dutch service as the threat of war grew. Nevertheless they did not see combat, the few that were combat capable were destroyed on the ground or captured.
Several weapons set ups were tried, including 23mm cannon, but service aircraft all standardized on the 8 0.303's.
Fokker toyed with the idea of building a fully metal G-1, it is known that a metal wing was constructed but never used. The G-1 still used the 'classic' Fokker way of building aircraft, with wooden wings.
The planned successor to the G-1, the G-2, was of much more conventional layout (think Bf-110). Planned powerplants were RR Merlins or DB601s. Only a mock up was ever constructed.
Dutch pilots however, seem to have preferred the D-21 due to its simplicity. The G-1 was indeed faster but still about 50mph slower than the Bf-109E. It could however dive very fast, to the extent that it really needed dive brakes. I do not know if these were fitted to all G-1's though.
Regards,
Ronald
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Originally posted by bunch
Star, I've read at least a dozen books by gentlemen who went for an involuntary swim in the chanel & survived to write about it & I sort of assume most of those aircraft wouldn't have any skeletons in them
And you would determine which one is which.........how? I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm not even one of the affected parties as I'm not English by descent. And while my mother's family is German and Norwegian, I dont know of any relatives who might have died there so I really could care less. All I'm saying is, alot of men died in that stretch of water during the BoB, and I think alot of people would have a problem with it if someone started poking around down there trying to dredge up a plane or planes to make a profit off of. Planes buried in a pit at the end of the war because they were scrapped is a totally different thing. To me anyway, which might mean squat to the rest of the world. It's just my opinion.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143679
its gawddamn nice this litle piece of movie
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
And you would determine which one is which.........how? I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm not even one of the affected parties as I'm not English by descent. And while my mother's family is German and Norwegian, I dont know of any relatives who might have died there so I really could care less. All I'm saying is, alot of men died in that stretch of water during the BoB, and I think alot of people would have a problem with it if someone started poking around down there trying to dredge up a plane or planes to make a profit off of. Planes buried in a pit at the end of the war because they were scrapped is a totally different thing. To me anyway, which might mean squat to the rest of the world. It's just my opinion.
There has been very little to come out of the English Channel that is even recognizable. They've pulled some planes out of the sands of the French beaches, a 109E, a couple of Spits and a couple 51s, but not much else. Seems like I remember a 109E coming out of an English port too from the B of B. The Saltwater and the action of the tides etc really wreck the Channel stuff.
It's the planes found in freshwater lakes that have been the remarkable finds. There's a Halifax in Canada that is being restored that came from a Norwegian lake. An He111 and Ju88 were just raised last summer and were in remarkable condition. The list is long for those kind of recoveries as the deterioration of the aircraft is so much less.
Numerous aircraft are coming out of Russian lakes as well. Aeroplane Monthly had a photo of a P39 just recovered in remarkable condition. Pilot still in the cockpit. He got a state funeral. I saw a photo of a 109E that came out of a Russian lake in amazing shape. P40s as well.
Check this site for the Norway recoveries.
http://home.no.net/kjellsor/jonsvatnet.html
Pics of the 111 recovery here:
http://home.no.net/jornaasl/jonsvatnet/serie1/
More on both the Ju88 and 111 in Norway
http://home.no.net/jornaasl/jonsvatnet/
And more good stuff on them
http://trd.airpics.com/litw.php?del=litjonsvatn
Needless to say there are lots more wrecks out there that will be recovered in similar shape.
Personally I want Alan Bunte's 4th FG P51B that he ditched in a German lake south of Potsdam :)
Dan/Slack
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Which goes to show why people dont ask my opinion when they make decisions. :) My wife always tells me I'm wrong, I just didnt believe her. Damn.