Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Steve on February 16, 2005, 12:23:43 PM
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I can turn a wrench but this one is beyond me, all opinions welcome.
Lazs and company:
I will be putting, err have it put, a 383(TPI) in my c4 in the very near future. I intend this motor to dyno at about 400.
I have some recommendations from the speed shop I use but would really like to hear your opinions on parts that I know little or nothing about.
Please recommend manufacturers for the following items: Block, crank, cam, heads (I am leaning to AFR but heard Edelbrock has some good ones).
I already have appropriate runners and injectors, along with Flowmaster exhaust.
What do you think about using the original intake off my c4?
I would like to clean up the brackets, etc for my accessories. Should I powder coat or anodize?
I welcome any input and commentary. Thanks to any who take the time to assist me.
Steve
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C4=Vette?
Have you looked at the crate motor packages from Chevy?
They all come with Warranties and they have some motors that really rock.
link to crate motors from GM (http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/store/category.aspx?SID=2&Category_ID=3&src=ovchycrm&OVRAW=chevy%20crate%20motors&OVKEY=chevy%20crate%20motor&OVMTC=standard)
(http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/store/images/12496769_large.jpg)
Link to 383? (http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/store/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=474&Category_ID=63)
FastBurn 385 350CI/385HP with Aluminum Vortec Heads
# 12496769
RETAIL: $6,128.58
PRICE: $4,385.00
That page under the small block section has tons more.
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Yes sorry. c4= vette('86). None of the chevy crates will work on my car. American Speed has some nice crates that will work but I am inclined to have Arizona Speed and Marine build one. ( no shipping)
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How come the chevie crates wont work?
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They are all designed for 87 and up... roller cam maybe? I'm not sure. Spoke w/ chevy about this and confirmed.
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Hmm that stinks hehe, they have some great deals.
I am sure the guys who know lots more then I will pop in soon though.
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I'd suggest a 406 instead. Because there is nothing better than cubic inches, and the 400 will fit where the 383 will.
A good stock Chevy 400 block will be fine, two or four bolt main. use studs to retain the heads and mains. Align hone it and and deck it for square, then bore and hone with deck plates.
I'd suggest an Eagle forged rotating assembly with SRP pistons. Alternatively, I'd suggest an Eagle 4340 crank, with their 6" I beam rod, and SRP pistons. The I beam rod is plenty good enough and will save money. If you just buy the rotating assembly (more expensive, comes with 4340 H beam rods) you can get it balanced by Eagle and save hassle and time. You can even get it internally balanced for an affordable price.
I've not been happy at all with AFR lately, although I used to use their stuff a lot. I'd suggest a Dart or Edelbrock head with a 200cc intake port. I'd suggest 2.05 intake valves and 1.625 exhausts. The better the head flows without being too big, the less cam you need to make power, so you get more torque and driveability.
You'll need to make sure the head and piston you get yield about 9.5:1 or 10:1 compression, you can run that on 93 octane with an aluminum head. You want to get there with a total deck clearance of about 0.040", for good efficiency and resistance to detonation.
I'd suggest a cam in the 218 to 244 @ 0.050 duration area, with around 110 lobe seperation angle. It will work with the computer and have acceptable idle characteristics. If you can afford it, go retrofit roller, they are the ticket. I'd like to see around .480' to .500' lift with a 1.5 rocker, and I'd use a 1.6.
I prefer true roller timing sets, not the cheap ones. And I've come to like high volume oil pumps properly blueprinted, with the bypass dumping to the pan. With an 86 car, you'll need a different oil pan to use an early block, make sure you get a Corvette pan.
Edelbrock has some nice pieces for your intake besides the runners, if you don't already have them.
I'd suggest full length headers with 1.75" diameter primaries.
The above combination will easily yield the results you desire, while keeping excellent reliability and driveability. I'd expect a very flat torque curve that exceeds 450 foot pounds at its peak, and is around 3500 RPM wide, with a nice peak HP number well in excess of 425HP. Yes, it is overbuilt with regards to forged components and preperation, but it will make the power you want easily and you will get long life and value for your dollar. I've built this basic combination with varying parts to suit the specific application. The result is always the same, a huge smile on the customers face when he sees the dyno numbers, and an even bigger one when he feels the way the torque shoves him deep into the seat.
If you really are bent on a 383, reduce the intake runner volume to 180cc's, reduce the cam maximum to 218 degrees, and you can use the 880 late model block, with the appropriate Eagle/SRP components. The stroke is the same, so make sure you still use the 6" rod.
I prefer powdercoating to plating, because I like the clean look without chrome and billet. It's durable, affordable, and looks good.
The roller cam design has nothing to do with why Chevy doesn't suggest their crate motors. It's the emissions laws. You could use a crate motor, but then you have ZERO options, you take what they give you. The ZZ3 based engines use the Corvette head and cam from the LT1/LT4 series. You could buy one of them and modify your intake. You can even convert them to the 'hot cam' setups Chevy sells. They really are mostly a mid to late eeghties short block with a forged crank and the later Corvette heads and cam. The warranty will be void when you start tinkering.
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Wow
After reading Savage's post, I am no longer proud being able to change my own oil :)
NwBie
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Originally posted by Nwbie
Wow
After reading Savage's post, I am no longer proud being able to change my own oil :)
NwBie
:rofl
Hey, there's a lot of things I ain't real good at and a lot I don't know too much about. I grew up around cars, guns, welding, fabrication, explosives, and airplanes. I was forced to learn about computers because I can't afford to pay someone else.
I haven't solved any of the issues between men and women. I can only cook if there's fire involved. I'm lousy at web pages. I possess barely rudimentary skills and knowledge of chemistry and physics (if it doesn't pertain to going fast, or blowing things up, I'm lost). For all my knowledge and efforts, I'm a dismal failure at flight sims. I can't sew. Did I mention I don't understand women? I know enough of foreign languages to either embarass myself or get my prettythang kicked. I MAY be one step ahead of Tim the Toolman Taylor when it comes to working on houses and buildings. I'm not real good with most software. Did I mention I can't deal with women? I'm lousy at artistic things. I can't play the guitar or the harmonica anymore. Oh, and women are well beyond my areas of knowledge.
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Call Edlebrock and they will set you up with a complete package of your choosing....they have many to choose from.
And tell Vic..... Koda sent ya
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Virgil, how mush is that gonna cost me?
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GTO, I have been talking to a guy at Az Speed and Marine named Ben. He is going to talk to the owner (Jim) to see if they can make a crate motor work. He says that I can buy a crate cheaper than they can build a comparable one. If a crate works, I'm considering this one:
http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=1223&Category_ID=2
What do you think?
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Originally posted by Steve
Virgil, how mush is that gonna cost me?
Steve, I've been selling a similar setup for around $4500 in Tennessee. I don't know what you'd pay in AZ.
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Originally posted by Steve
GTO, I have been talking to a guy at Az Speed and Marine named Ben. He is going to talk to the owner (Jim) to see if they can make a crate motor work. He says that I can buy a crate cheaper than they can build a comparable one. If a crate works, I'm considering this one:
http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=1223&Category_ID=2
What do you think?
That would be the one to use Steve. Be aware, however, even though the TPI can be redrilled, the ports may not line up well, since the FastBurn head uses the Vortec intake. However, Scoggin Dickey in Texas sells a Vortec style TPI intake for about $400. It is brand new, and it may be limited in availability
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Hiya Steve,
I have been using Keith Craft Motorsports for their heads and engines here lately. If you want to change engines and are considering going to a gen 3 or gen 2 block the best advice I can give is to upgrade to a gen4. The door is just now starting to open up on the LS1 and LS6 engines, not counting the LQ series iron blocks. Here is a link to some of KCM's engines.
http://www.keithcraftmotorsports.com/our_engines_ls1.asp
Give them a look. The only thing I can think of that would make this swap slightly difficult is having to install a different wiring harness and ECM. Painless sells a great wiring harness for the LS series engines.
http://www.painlesswiring.com/catalogframe.htm
Just a thought or two. Hope it helps a little instead of hindering.
Robert
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Great informantion guys thanks. I appreciate you spending the time to help me out.
The guy at Az speed and Marine mentioned that the crates use fastburn heads and seemed undaunted by that. He didn't mention redrilling but did say that TPI and all it entails is their forte. I'm hoping he is aware of what you've mentioned. He mentioned that my intake and plenum(from my original motor '86 vette motor) will fit on chevy crates w/ fastburn heads. What do you think?
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I know very little when it comes to the General's motors and parts, being a blue oval guy myself but some of this stuff goes for both and the Mopar guys too.
AFR makes the most popular heads going, their marketing is above all their competition. When I built my 351W the two main competitors were Edelbrock and Twisted Wedge and I chose the Edelbrocks based on personal recomendations from a raceing engine builder. He said the Edelbrocks have a higher quality of the factory casting than the TFS units, although the angled valves do have a higher potential after some work. You might want to look at Canfield or Brodix heads too, they offer plenty of performance for the relatively mild output you are seeking.
Frankly if you are looking for only 400 fwhp from a 383 then the AFRs (I assume you want 185s right) may be too much for your cam. Getting 1.25fwhp per cubic inch with aftermarket aluminum heads and a roller cam/rocker combo si child's play these days.
On another subject, why not drop and LS1 in there, even if you have to replace the electronics it isn't THAT big of a hurdle. And those LS1 motors are simply awesome, there's tons of potential in them, and thats coming from a fan of Henry...LOL!
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Originally posted by koda76
Call Edlebrock and they will set you up with a complete package of your choosing....they have many to choose from.
I like their package approach. I have the full "RPM" package on mine but with a slightly altered roller cam profile of 224i/236e with .506 lift on both. This nets around 425fwhp from only 357 cubes.
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Originally posted by Steve
Great informantion guys thanks. I appreciate you spending the time to help me out.
The guy at Az speed and Marine mentioned that the crates use fastburn heads and seemed undaunted by that. He didn't mention redrilling but did say that TPI and all it entails is their forte. I'm hoping he is aware of what you've mentioned. He mentioned that my intake and plenum(from my original motor '86 vette motor) will fit on chevy crates w/ fastburn heads. What do you think?
All I can tell you is that Chevy says use a Vortec intake on the Fastburn heads, and that I know Vortec style ports do not line up with older heads properly. I do know that Scoggin Dickey made the new Vortec style TPI unit because the old one did not fit the Vortec heads well. I spoke to Chris Jones at Scoggin Dickey while I was at the PRI tradeshow about that intake specifically because we were looking at using a TPI intake with Vortec heads.
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The Gen 3 LS1 style engines are at this point considerably more expensive than the older stuff and it is also expensive and time consuming to change the earlier cars over.
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Interestingly enough, Scoggin Dickey has the engine I'm considering for $300.00 or so cheaper than the sight I was looking at.
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Originally posted by Steve
Interestingly enough, Scoggin Dickey has the engine I'm considering for $300.00 or so cheaper than the sight I was looking at.
Yeah, Scoggin Dickey has a lock on Chevy factory performance parts. My local supplier is the GM parts depot for the area, and I've bought wholesale from them for years. The guy I've dealt with all that time told me they cannot buy GM Performance Parts as cheap as Scoggin Dickey can sell them.
There's nothing really WRONG with the crate motors. I tell people that if they are satisfied with having the same thing everyone else has with no options, it is a viable option. If you want something different, something custom, or something a little more, they are not the best way to go.
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Savage what you need is one of my bro's torque tools. He's made some good designs and he's built up a good name for his tools. Check 'em out.
I should be able to get you a discount.
http://www.radtorque.com/
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virgil pretty much said it all. rather than small preference items I would say he covered everything. I like comp cams steel roller rockers. I like AFR but virgil actually sees em often so I would defer to him.
I have never built a roller cam motor but they are the hot setup compared to my nostalgic solid flat tappet 104 (off road '69 z28) cam choice. The choices virgil gave will allow for an extremely streetable combo or even a little more radical one depending on the cam... a roller can have more duration and still idle smoothly with good vacum (if you are into that).
Most custom engine builders will work with you and help you figure out what you really want. I don't think it would be a bad idea to get the good captn to build you a motor and ship it to ya.
virgil... someday we are gonna have to talk about ignition and timing curves...
lazs
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I still say for less mess use the Edlebrock stuff....but if you are looking to just put an LT1 or LS1 in... Painless wiring just came out with a puter so you can run the EFI. setups....get power and MPG...My Stock LT1 350 puts out 270 hp at the flywheel or 240 at the rear wheels...24 mpg....in a 4200 lbs Impala SS My Gen III vortec 292 puts out the same numbers....but 20 mpg in a 5500 lb pick em up....
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Virgil, you build 'em for a living?
Koda, good suggestions but I'm looking for 400 range. This is a car I drive very little, I want it to kick me in the arse like a mule when I let it rip.
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Originally posted by Steve
Virgil, you build 'em for a living?
Yes, I do. But I'm in Tennessee, a little too far to do you much good. I could probably make you a pretty decent recipe that a good shop could use if you and they wanted.
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Remember I posted bone stock numbers...with very few mods a LT1 can acheive 400 hp no problem...then spray it and wooooooph your @ 600.....(wet system)
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Gocha Koda. I have a 150 (wet) shot ready to go.
Virgil, if the crate doesn't pan out, can I tap you for some of those suggestions?
My father in law lives in Maryville, maybe I'll make him throw it in the back of his truck and haul it out here for me.
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Originally posted by Steve
Virgil, if the crate doesn't pan out, can I tap you for some of those suggestions?
My father in law lives in Maryville, maybe I'll make him throw it in the back of his truck and haul it out here for me.
Certainly.