Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Dux on February 17, 2005, 12:44:23 PM
-
I remember hearing something to the effect that the .NET runtime environment should be avoided like the plague... but I just ran across some software that I reeeally would like to have, but it requires .NET to run.
What are your thoughts on .NET these days?
-
Run away,..far away,..fast,..very fast. Nevermind passing GO!, get out of dodge while you can!
Anyone that likes .NET has to be masochistic. It's a bad thing.
==
All that said. The problem is .NET does not know how to leave the system alone. A .NET application might/could/should be ok. BUT,..yes Virginia, there is a BUT,...I would be very, very careful.
Contact the software supplier and ask them how intrusive thier application is?
Does it preload anything at Windows runtime? If yes, then drop the app like so much garbage on fire.
Does it hook any interrupts? If yes, then take a bat to it and put it over the left field wall.
Does it require an Internet connection? If yes, then hook it to the tail end of a funny car about to holeshot.
You see, answering "yes" to any of the above means .NET will be loaded and running all the time, even when the application is not running. Simply put, your computer becomes a solid molasses hockey puck, where anything you want to do suddenly becomes an exercise in praying to the various deities begging for relief from the sleep inducing drama required to get a single keystroke recognized by your computer.
Other than that,..might be ok.
-
Oh cmon, dont hold back Skuzzy, tell us how you really feel. :)
-
okay... so it's bad...???
hehe. What you said was pretty much the impression I had... in fact, I probably got the impression from you in the first place. :-)
The software is called World Wind, put out by NASA, of all things. Here's a link...
http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/index.html (http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/index.html)
I think I may install it on my work PC (unless .net causes security issues... they don't even allow Java and ActiveX here) as this program could really be a great help. If it messes up the PC at work, I'll just have it wiped.
Thanks, Skuzzy. :)
-
.NET does have security issues. I do not know to what level, if any, they are being exploited yet.
I kind of look at this way. If an application *requires* .NET, then whoever wrote it does not have a clue how to program for this environment (Windows). As such, I avoid anything from them like the plague.
EDIT: I don't click on .gov links Dux. Those sites get hacked so often it is rediculous. You never know what your computer might catch.
-
Set a System Restore point before you install it just to be safe.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
You see, answering "yes" to any of the above means .NET will be loaded and running all the time, even when the application is not running. Simply put, your computer becomes a solid molasses hockey puck, where anything you want to do suddenly becomes an exercise in praying to the various deities begging for relief from the sleep inducing drama required to get a single keystroke recognized by your computer.
Other than that,..might be ok. [/B]
eeeek, how do I know if .NET is loaded on my pc at boot as Skuzzy describes?
A task in task manager maybe?
-
It wil not show in the task manager as it is a collection of DLL's. Only exe's show in the task manager.
There is no way for a user to know all this stuff is loaded on thier computer. It's one of many hidden things MS does.
You have to install .NET (right now anyway) from the MS update site. If you have not done that, then you are probably ok.
-
Doesn't the .Net stuff automatically get loaded on XP service pack 2? Or am I incorrect here...??
-
An older version does, which does not activate at install time.
-
I got the world-wind software, and guess what... the latest microsoft .net security patch will not install on my computer. It fails out every time. I don't know what the heck is causing it to fail out, but I've uninstalled everything I think could be causing the problem and it still won't patch. So I'm basically screwed running a system that is vulnerable to a very very publicly recognized security problem, possibly due to installing one single .net enabled program.
My other 2 computers took the .net patch without complaining, but neither of them have ever run a .net enabled program.
-
Thanks for the feedback, guys... I'll wait until those rocket scientists release a version that doesn't need .NET.
lol... I work with many real rocket scientists; the title is not always complimentary. ;)
Eagl, other than that, what do you think of World Wind?
-
You can tell .NET is installed by going to the Add/Remove Programs control panel. You'll see it listed under "Microsoft .NET 1.1 Runtime." If it isn't there, then you don't have it.
I'm afraid this is the second time I'm going to list a different opinion than Skuzzy in a month, which I don't think has ever happened before.
I was wary of .NET, but when an App I REQUIRED needed it, I did some research and benchmarks.
First of all, I'm not wild about the idea of adding a bunch of new runtimes into my system, and you shouldn't if you don't have to. Additionally, I monitor all my background Services and Startup Programs with a critical eye regularly.
That said, after I installed .NET, I found NO new startup programs and NO new Services starting up with my system. My Memory usage did not change one iota. My before-and-after benchmarks had no meaningful difference. My online games, and indeed all my online programs, acted exactly as well as they had been before.
What is .NET? In my mind, I think of it as a 22 megabyte collection of things similar to Visual Basic runtime DLL, except in this case, the DLLs in question allow programmers to create apps that make network and GUI calls very easily. Too easily, really. And these DLL's can easily be called and probably have lots of bugs and security holes and risks. Still, my Gut Reaction is that most .NET problems people have are REALLY from the cheesy applications these wanna-be programmers write using the .NET framework.
Just like how it isn't the Visual Basic Runtime Libraries that cause problems, but all the crummy VB applications people install that use it.
As for your Rocket Scientists' software, I would bet that it will NEVER be rewritten to NOT use .NET, so you might as well get over it. Software is being modified to USE .NET industry-wide, not the other way around.
Make a system backup. Install .NET. Check out your system. Run the update, Then install your App and see how it goes. If there are problems, then restore from your backup. Be vigilant about updates, but you should be doing this anyway...
-Llama
-
Worldwind is neat. It requires a crapload of network bandwidth and it helps if you have a lot of system memory, but if you're patient it's very neat.
-
I checked Add/Remove Programs and my machine apparently has .NET runtime 1.1 installed. I don't even remember installing any software that mentioned .NET.
I presume that once you have this there is no way short of a reformat & reinstall to get rid of it?
-
Oh no problem Llama. .NET, like so many things in the OS, will behave differently from one system to the next, depending on the system configurations.
One question though. Did you check the commit/charge before and after the installation? Explorer loads the .NET DLL's.
You have an ATI card. Ever install Catalyst Control Center? If you did, then you know how devasting an application can be to the overall system performance when using .NET.
.NET allows for a distributed architecture, which simply means applications/utilites/operating system no longer has to be physically located on your local hard drive.
So the application can go out and grab DLL's, exe, scripts, and run them on your computer without you knowing about it. In a properly secured environment, this would be ok, but I cannot consider the Internet such an environment.
Llama, you and I cannot be considered the typical computer user. I notice you have a tendency to post from your perspective, which is definately not the average user perspective. That is not a ding on you, by the way.
I am speculating, but I bet your computer is no where near using the stock installation setup MS provides. I keep one system, at the house, in stock condition just so I can see what the typcial user sees. I have to admit, I do forget how ugly the default setup MS provides is.
Llama, how many other people do you know who could run thier computer without any pop-up blockers, spyware tools, anti-virus software, firewalls, and never, ever have a computer problem?
By the way, nothing wrong with a good challenge. Makes us think outside the box more.
-
Skuzzy, you and Llama are making the same point, but with different results. As a software engineer, I see my share of evils, and their result on the average user. Heck, I'm sure I've coded one or two in my career :).
The point is .net is not in itself evil. The architecture makes life for developers a bit easier by allowing us to have access to resources that would not otherwise be available, or would be exceptionally difficult to access. Distributed computing is everywhere, and MS chose to provide relatively easy access to the resources that have gone from single-machine to n-tier. Now, what a developer chooses to do with that power, and how the developer writes his application is where things can get ugly. It is easy to blame the framework because it is the most visible piece, when in reality the application developer is at fault.
-
I agree 100% jonnyb. The problem is, there are more bad/lazy programmers than good ones.
However, I will maintain .NET is a train wreck looking for a place to happen. Distributed computing in the hands of a company who still has not figured out how to secure a simple port in the TCP stack without it being exploited first, is a very bad idea.
Depending on .NET to deliver the pieces of code I need to run an application on my system is flat out scary. Who in thier right mind would trust the Internet like that?
-
The unfortunate truth is that a large percentage of companies simply do not know the truth. They really *DO* trust the internet like that. Or rather, they really do trust the software to take care of their problems for them. As far as most companies are concerned software is just a magic black box that makes things happen. These companies don't invest the time/resources to really dig down and do the proper risk assessments. This kind of research just isn't their core business model. These companies are not the minority.
This is where Joe Consultant makes his bread. It is precisely why companies like Accenture, DT, etc thrive. The firms know that the typical company doesn't have the resources or capacity to properly make their own decisions in terms of software needs. I'm not denying a need for this type of business (after all, it's what I do :)). The problem is the prevalence of the "lazy/bad" developers that become involved in the decision making process. After all, most anybody can set up his own firm and become a consultant. All that person needs is good marketing, a strong sales team, and the development is a distant third. If I can advertise enough and convince you that .NET is the way to go, you'll go that way because it is my job to tell you these things. Regardless of what may or may not be the proper solution for your company, you hired me, and therefore, will follow my guidelines.
Now that I've got you using .NET, I can farm the development work out to some offshore facility where extremely junior developers put it together. The end result? You have a "black box" solution for your needs that you *HAVE* to presume works as designed and was a worthwhile investment. Reality of it? Well, that's what this thread is about, right?
-
My world and reality often conflict.
I did a consulting job once. Once. The company brought me in as in independent overseer. They had spent about $850,000.00 on this network/server/database/firewall system and asked me what I thought.
I asked if I could test it out (they were proud, almost arrogant about how secure they beleived it all was) and sat down at a terminal (I had no access at that time) and in less than 10 minutes, crashed the entire network. They fired me.
Reality. As long as you tell them what they want to hear, they will be happy campers. They do not want to know how serious the problems they have really are.
.NET is in that class. Easy to sell, as it is bleeding edge technology. Nevermind if it is proven technology, it's the newest buzz word around. Everybody's doing it!
Heck, if it is good enough for NASA, then it must be good enough for the rest of us.
I do not think I will ever be able to reconcile myself with reality.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
My world and reality often conflict.
I do not think I will ever be able to reconcile myself with reality.
Now there's SIG material if I ever saw it! Heh, welcome to my world Skuzzy. :)
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
My world and reality often conflict.
I did a consulting job once. Once. The company brought me in as in independent overseer. They had spent about $850,000.00 on this network/server/database/firewall system and asked me what I thought.
I asked if I could test it out (they were proud, almost arrogant about how secure they beleived it all was) and sat down at a terminal (I had no access at that time) and in less than 10 minutes, crashed the entire network. They fired me.
Reality. As long as you tell them what they want to hear, they will be happy campers. They do not want to know how serious the problems they have really are.
.NET is in that class. Easy to sell, as it is bleeding edge technology. Nevermind if it is proven technology, it's the newest buzz word around. Everybody's doing it!
Heck, if it is good enough for NASA, then it must be good enough for the rest of us.
I do not think I will ever be able to reconcile myself with reality.
Precisely the kind of thing I was illustrating in my post. Companies don't have the knowledge or know-how to deal with the kind of boundary-less environment created by the internet. They get sold on the hype, and MS is exceptionally good at selling hype.
By the way, I'm with StarofAfrica...your opening and closing statements are definitely sig material :)
-
well, i read thru this topic with great interest, for i consider myself a pretty average computer user, and despite all the negative comments on .net i just had to try out the world wind software :D
anyway, i just wanted to report that in my particular case installing world wind and playing with it for a couple of days haven't caused any major differences in performance. AH2 still runs fine :D so far ;)