Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on February 17, 2005, 06:43:41 PM
-
A mission for ya. If you dont mind.
You seem to be good with numbers,and enjoy compiling Stats, and all that.
So an honest breakdown if you dont mind
What percentage of the players land the majority of their flights as opposed to being shot down ,crash,bail etc?
I maintain and I'll use my own evil word/s that the vast "Majority" of the players are suiciders in one form or another be they baseporkers or furballers and that "most" people fly till they die which in essence is really nothing more then suicide flights.
I beleive your numbers if you care to compile them for evaluation will bear me out on this. And not by a small margin either.
-
You do realize, don`t ya, that once someone asked Zaz what his favorite gum was here on the BBS and it took 3 weeks and posts equaling the size of "Gone With The Wind" to reply?
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I maintain and I'll use my own evil word/s that the vast "Majority" of the players are suiciders in one form or another be they baseporkers or furballers and that "most" people fly till they die which in essence is really nothing more then suicide flights.
Just an FYI... even if the data show that an overwhelming majority of players die more than they land their flights, you cannot describe their behavior as "suicidal" without some other kind of information that remains unavailable to us. How can you argue that players act suicidally rather than incompetently? One represents a choice of play style; the other represents a lack of choice regardless of play style.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Is it incompetent to take on a 2 on 1 and loose out to the 3rd guy who comes steeming in; or to win that fight and get picked off by the second incoming wave.
I do realise the gist of thread but there are so many variables to consider before one can correlate a death:landing ration to suicidal tendancies. For me it's normally the case of overwhelming odds. Which, come to think of it, implies that yes, I do seek out dangerous situations..... but that's not what we're talking about is it? May be wrong, but you're on about making sure the bombs hit by flying a plane into the target, no?
As someone who considers himself a "fair" pilot, I tend to land about a third of my sorties over the course of a tour, and I always try, or hope to get back.
-
Originally posted by Darkish
Is it incompetent to take on a 2 on 1 and loose out to the 3rd guy who comes steeming in; or to win that fight and get picked off by the second incoming wave.
I do realise the gist of thread but there are so many variables to consider before one can correlate a death:landing ration to suicidal tendancies. For me it's normally the case of overwhelming odds. Which, come to think of it, implies that yes, I do seek out dangerous situations..... but that's not what we're talking about is it? May be wrong, but you're on about making sure the bombs hit by flying a plane into the target, no?
As someone who considers himself a "fair" pilot, I tend to land about a third of my sorties over the course of a tour, and I always try, or hope to get back.
Exactly, remember also how many people die diving into a furball to help out a squaddie.
-
Don't think it is possible... there isn't any way to tell without going through every single players score and working with the K/D and K/S.
-
Ya, Urch I agree.
Heck, one could skew land/death ratios just by launching and ending mission w/ out ever leaving the tarmac. Then there's guys like Lev, Drex, Slap and others who don't suicide per se but will stick around in hopeless situations and get shot down(after making a good accounting for themselves).
While folks like Zazen(no offense) may consider this a form of suicide, I disagree. I think it's a choice made by one who logged on to dogfight and get kills, with landing a tertiary consideration at best. I've flown like this on several occasions w/ Levi and ... Levi who was the other guy you used to (and still do for all I know) wing with? He flew an A8 down low and dirty and always got more than his share. I am sorry I have forgotten his name, ascerbic fellow w/ good skills... I really liked the guy.
Anyway, my point is, this would be a very generic calculation, hardly scientific, IMHO.
-
I only expect to die when attacking CV groups. The other 99% of the time, I'm expecting to fly home. Unfortunately, a lot of people are fundamentally opposed to this, and they seem to shoot at me a lot. Basically, I'm not suicidal, they're homicidal. Big difference.
cheers,
hub
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Just an FYI... even if the data show that an overwhelming majority of players die more than they land their flights, you cannot describe their behavior as "suicidal" without some other kind of information that remains unavailable to us. How can you argue that players act suicidally rather than incompetently? One represents a choice of play style; the other represents a lack of choice regardless of play style.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Well then the exact same thing can and should be said about the "suicidal base porkers"
On another thread someone claimed these people
"don't intend to RTB. They usually keep making passes at the barracks and ord until they are either killed by ack or a defender. They will drop, extend just enough to turn around and return, even with a defender right on their 6. They ignore the defender and the ack, and bore in on the barracks, knowing full well they will die if they fly like that. "
I say there are few that either intend on RTB or at least plan on it.
As "most" dont anyway one would have to assume your probably going to die rather then RTB before you ever up for a furball
Now if you know your probably going to die anyway, as "most" do. Be it in a furball or a base porking run yet you do it anyway, wouldn't that be considered suicidal?
I think so.
Actually I think that again "most" people would rather be able to RTB no matter what it is they are doing. Yet through as you put it "incompetence" the dont. Be it a furball or baseporking run.
To me, suiciders would be those that intentionally die by crashing intentionally into the ground or target.
And yet in several years now of my being here,I have seen very very very little evidence of this.
While there have been some.
Certainly not enough to substantiate or justify the whines we see on the boards about it.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Well then the exact same thing can and should be said about the "suicidal base porkers"
On another thread someone claimed these people
"don't intend to RTB. They usually keep making passes at the barracks and ord until they are either killed by ack or a defender. They will drop, extend just enough to turn around and return, even with a defender right on their 6. They ignore the defender and the ack, and bore in on the barracks, knowing full well they will die if they fly like that. "
I say there are few that either intend on RTB or at least plan on it.
As "most" dont anyway one would have to assume your probably going to die rather then RTB before you ever up for a furball
Now if you know your probably going to die anyway, as "most" do. Be it in a furball or a base porking run yet you do it anyway, wouldn't that be considered suicidal?
I think so.
Actually I think that again "most" people would rather be able to RTB no matter what it is they are doing. Yet through as you put it "incompetence" the dont. Be it a furball or baseporking run.
To me, suiciders would be those that intentionally die by crashing intentionally into the ground or target.
And yet in several years now of my being here,I have seen very very very little evidence of this.
While there have been some.
Certainly not enough to substantiate or justify the whines we see on the boards about it.
If you don't see it, you don't get out much.
-
Originally posted by Rino
If you don't see it, you don't get out much.
Oh I get out plenty. In fact I've made a habit of looking specifically for it for just this discussion.
And considering you haven't been in the MA in almost year and a half and then before that didn't spend alot of time there even before that (the last 3 months you hung out in the ma you were there 24, 21 , and 16 hours) it is obvious You rarely if ever get out at all.
Hell this month alone I've been there almost as much as you were the last 3 months you were there.
so you will excuse me if I view your statement as less then legitimate
I just dont see it and I've looked closely for it.
the very vast majority of the time they auger for entirely other reasons then intentional. In fact I see more that blow up on their way into the target then I do see crash into it. Also I see more that crash due to a lost wing or other catastrophic damage then I do see crash outright.
But again "most" blow up over the target not into it
I'd say if you are insisting you see it consistently there is a very high probability not looking closely enough to distinguish exactly what has really happened. Which is easy to do if your not specifically looking for it.
Also I used to be a dedicated base porker I know at least as much as anyone what used to kill me and what didn't.
If I did crash into the ground it was because occasionally I screwed up or wasn't used to the plane I was in and compressed. Or ripped a wing. but the very vast majority of the time I did crash it was because of damage to my aircraft by either manned or auto ack.
And there have been many many occasions this same ack has blown me up right near the ground as I was pulling, or about to pull out of my dive.
Never. Not once have I nor have I known anyone in all my time here to intentionally crash into their target
-
im not suicidal....somewhere in my excuse for a brain i think i *can* win this 10 on 1 fight and get home.
im just not bothered by virtual death enough to warrant running away from anything unless i have absloutely no ammo.
even happy to dive into a furball deadstick if situation permits.
-
So, if I understand the point of all this, we should stop calling them 'suicide pork n auger dweebs' and start calling them 'careless, imcompetent, ack-magnet dweebs'?
Surviving a few minutes in a furball before getting jumped by a con is one thing. Repeated deaths from the ack, killing yourself with your own ordinance, or just good ol' augering are quite another.
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
So, if I understand the point of all this, we should stop calling them 'suicide pork n auger dweebs' and start calling them 'careless, imcompetent, ack-magnet dweebs'?
Surviving a few minutes in a furball before getting jumped by a con is one thing. Repeated deaths from the ack, killing yourself with your own ordinance, or just good ol' augering are quite another.
Incompetence is incompetence no matter if your porking or furballing.
doesnt take any more skill to die in a furball then it does to die porking a base
-
Deaths aren't real, planes are free the second after you die. Why wouldn't you dive into the mob? You don't go in expecting to die, but hoping to test your limits.
I've been down on the deck in a 38G lately and more often then not I'll end up getting chopped in the crowd, but you know what? I'm lasting longer and learning more about the limits of that bird, so what do I have to lose.....unless I'm worried about rank,points, perks and K/D.....which I am not.
Dan/Slack
-
Exactly Guppy,
So many in this game don't even realize that simple idea.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Deaths aren't real, planes are free the second after you die. Why wouldn't you dive into the mob? You don't go in expecting to die, but hoping to test your limits.
I've been down on the deck in a 38G lately and more often then not I'll end up getting chopped in the crowd, but you know what? I'm lasting longer and learning more about the limits of that bird, so what do I have to lose.....unless I'm worried about rank,points, perks and K/D.....which I am not.
Dan/Slack
This is an Epiphany --> A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something.
-
..and Guppy has to shield the bright and all encompassing light from his eyes.
An intense white that draws on his soul..
-
Okay, we're all incompetent and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I say there are few that either intend on RTB or at least plan on it.
intentionally die by crashing intentionally into the ground or target.
My point was purely methodological. Even if you can find numbers substantiating your view that more people die than return to base (a perfectly reasonable statement), you cannot say that they died because they were "suicidal." You could only say that more people die than return to base each mission.
Now, some of those people might die because they don't care about living -- base porkers, furballers, whatever -- and some of them die not because they don't care, but because they can't help but to die. They aren't good enough to live even if they wished it every flight. Hence my comment about "competence." As you cannot distinguish between deaths caused by lack of caring and deaths caused by lack of skill, you cannot definitively state that most players fly suicidally.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Dred,
Your quote about suicide base porkers was mine. I'm glad my quote struck a nerve with you!
I think there is a HUGE difference between suicide base porkers and furballers.
SBPs pay no attention to the plane on their 6. None! They dive in, barely extend, turn around dive in until dead. Their sole mission is to kill ORD and/or Barracks. They ignore ack and other players until dead. They don't fight humans, they "fight" buildings. Their goal is to destroy buildings until the pesky enemy plane on their 6 kills them. When they take off on such missions, they know with certainty they will not return.
Furballers pay very close attention to enemy planes. They actually fight humans! If they are successful all the enemy humans will be back in the tower and they will still be flying. Their goal is to still be alive when their enemies are dead. If that is accomplished most will land their kills.
I personally like to fly to live. Whether I'm on a base pork run or up to find a furball. When I take off, I intend to RTB. Flying until dead is just too gamey for me. If I'm on a base pork mission, I drop my ord, extend, then fight whoever is around. If the SA says I'm outnumbered 5 to 1, I try to RTB. But I don't just keep fighting buildings until dead.
If Mars, Guppy, Nopoop, want to furball until they run out of gas, that's great for them. I just don't get a charge out of it. But at least they are fighting people! They create good gameplay!
The SBPs do not create good game play. They are just lamers.
-
Very True Mosq,
But it is also incorrect to think most people don't want to RTB. I don't think many people like getting killed. I do think alot of people like pushing the odds.
Personally I don't fly till I am out of gas, some times I realise I have stayed in the fight to long and no longer have the fuel to RTB so I will fight till I run out of gas. I will also engage a 5 Vs 1 because I believe you gotta play to win. My SA and ability has gotten many times better jumping into bad odds then if I played it safe, thus making me a better pilot. Now I am winning more two and three on ones and sometimes getting out of the 5 or more on one with a few kills.
-
SBP's are a given for suicide runs. Furballers arn't suicide dweebs, they just enjoy fighting more then they enjoy living. It's not that they don't care about survival, but they don't think surviving is much fun if you don't have any kills to land.
IMO this is becomming somewhat rare in the MA. People extend out without really attacking anymore because, for some reason unbeknownst to me, they are afraid of dieing in a game that lets you take off again right away. I mean, people have more balls in counterstrike, and in that game you can wind up waiting for > 5 min. to respawn.
-pellik
-
Dred, I wish I could do this, short of writing a parsing script and getting access to the raw data I could not even begin to do so. It would not be hard for HiTech to compile this from the raw database but I doubt database sorting refinements are high on his priority list. But, as others have said I'm not sure how valuable the information would be even if we did have it. While I personally consider flying to survive the 'only' way to approach this game, as I personally find it the most satisfying I am fully aware that I am in the minority in this regard. From my direct observations in-game I would conservatively estimate 3/4 of those who take-off have zero intention of surviving unless they happen to run out of gas or ammunition in close proximity to a friendly base. That is not to say they lack the ability to kill and survive, they may well have it, what they lack is the motivation to do so, there is no measure for a players' motivation or unrealized potential.
As several posters have stated you don't really die, the only sacrafice you make is the time it takes you to re-up and re-alt another plane and get to the action. Obviously, this alone is not much incentive to put forth the extra time, thought and effort to try to kill AND survive, this is why those concerned with rank tend to fly to survive, they have another motivational factor beyond a simple time-sink to encourage them to do so. Most, however, just accept the fact that they will likely die and attempt to kill until they inevitably get killed themselves. I find this particular approach extremely boring, uninteresting and not terribly challenging. There reaches a point in everyone's virtual career when killing in and of itself becomes rather trivial. Killing and not being killed however, requires quite a bit more committment in terms of thought, tactical finesse and discretion in engagements.
All things considered I would prefer everyone do whatever it is that keeps their interest in the game, for me that is killing without being killed. For mars01 or Slappy its getting low and slow in a Spit and seeing how many enemy they can take to the grave with them, for some others it's diving in on a field trying to vulch a few before they get wacked themselves. The fact is if everyone flew for the exact same reasons in the exact same way the game would not be half as interesting. I do not vulch so my targets consist primarily of 3 categories: 1) The high-alt wannabe porker/vulcher 2) the fellow survivalist I meet at altitude 3) the furball until they get wacked type. You take away any type of flyer and the atmosphere of the MA gets simplified (boring). It's all the various strata and types of engagements that makes AH2 tactically engrossing....
Zazen
-
Originally posted by pellik
SBP's are a given for suicide runs. Furballers arn't suicide dweebs, they just enjoy fighting more then they enjoy living. It's not that they don't care about survival, but they don't think surviving is much fun if you don't have any kills to land.
-pellik
Good point here, I consider myself a purist, the quintessential survivalist. But, to be honest until I have 5+ kills in a hop surviving is a secondary goal to killing. If I am low on gas with ammunition remaining and have fewer than 3 kills I will go WAYYYYY out of my way to get some more kills, not suicidally but definately pushing hard on the envelope of tactical prudence. Once I get 5 kills I tighten up and surviving becomes the top priority. I would imagine those less inclined toward survivalism would be even more biased toward the, 'get a kill at all costs' angle. I think most people who are survivalists for reasons that have nothing to do with rank, like myself, became proficient at killing long ago and turned to survivalism to effectively 'raise the bar' on their effectiveness emulating the tactical approach real WW2 combat fighter pilots took. The rare times I fly with no regard for survival my flying is undisciplined and sloppy, and I quickly get bored whether I am successfull or not. The self-imposed 'fear of death' actually makes me fly a more inspired game, a kind of inspiration by necessity thing.
The flip-side of this is, as pellik eluded to, if you are still at the stage where just getting kills is tough business for you, flying to survive is likely just going to further your frustration level. Once getting 5+ kills consistantly in a variety of rides becomes relatively easy for you it's probably worth your time to add the survivalist dimension to your game, especially after just shooting people down gets insanely boring and you thirst for an added tactical challenge, one that excercises your mind as well as your stick hand. Most people with mediocre skills can enter a furball in a Spit9 (insert your favorite EZ-mode plane here) with some E and flail around for a while getting a kill or three before your E state degrades to untenable and you die. This is not particularly different or challenging. Entering a fight committed to survive while still killing three guys is quite a bit more complex, requires quite a bit more forethought and SA and a strong conception of energy management and the nearly perfect assessment of relative E states under fire.
Zazen
-
For mars01 or Slappy its getting low and slow in a Spit and seeing how many enemy they can take to the grave with them,
Again, we don't fly to die, but then again we don't fly like a namby, mamby, pansei because we need to survive either.
We fight, we fight from a disadvantage, we fight against odds most people would not fight against. We fly for the action. If we end a good sortie and have kills to land we land them. To say we fly to die makes you as ignorant as your statement.
Good point here, I consider myself a purist, the quintessential survivalist. But, to be honest until I have 5+ kills in a hop surviving is a secondary goal to killing.
So you are a suicide dweeb since the only thing I've seen you land kills in for some time has only been an Osti.:D
-
Originally posted by mars01
So you are a suicide dweeb since the only thing I've seen you land kills in for some time has only been an Osti.:D
Actually, I have had very little time to fly at all the past 6 months. I think I have 20 hours flown in the past 6 months combined. SO, no you are not seeing me land kills in anything...
Zazen
-
Originally posted by mars01
Again, we don't fly to die, but then again we don't fly like a namby, mamby, pansei because we need to survive either.
I never said you fly to die, I said you do not fly with any regard for survival, there's a subtle but important distinction between the two. I really couldn't give a rats arse how you fly really, whatever rocks your boat. I just used you and slappy as examples because you two always have your lil' fingers in the pie on these boards trying to encourage everyone who will listen to not care about surviving either, undoubtedly so you have more fresh meat on your kill menu.. ;)
Zazen
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Okay, we're all incompetent and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:
your very welcome:aok
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
My point was purely methodological. Even if you can find numbers substantiating your view that more people die than return to base (a perfectly reasonable statement), you cannot say that they died because they were "suicidal." You could only say that more people die than return to base each mission.
Now, some of those people might die because they don't care about living -- base porkers, furballers, whatever -- and some of them die not because they don't care, but because they can't help but to die. They aren't good enough to live even if they wished it every flight. Hence my comment about "competence." As you cannot distinguish between deaths caused by lack of caring and deaths caused by lack of skill, you cannot definitively state that most players fly suicidally.
-- Todd/Leviathn
If you go willingly and knowingly go into a situation such as the case of a furball or a basepork. knowing full well the odds of you surviving it is very unlikely which is usually the case then you are in fact doing something suicidal even if it is your desire to not die.
the fact your putting yourself into a position where you are not likely to live through it makes it so.
Its not like mountain climbing where there is a more then reasonable chance you will survive if you just pay attention. to what your doing. Here, unless ALL you do is boom N zoom the fringes of a furball the odds of your surviving are stacked greatly against you no matter how careful you are.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK If you go willingly and knowingly go into a situation such as the case of a furball or a basepork. knowing full well the odds of you surviving it is very unlikely which is usually the case then you are in fact doing something suicidal even if it is your desire to not die.
This definition is so broad as to be useless . Essentially, any act of dying regardless of the motivation of the player depends on what... the odds? The numbers? First, you cannot possibly measure this for every individual given the data at hand. Second, you have defined "suicidal flying" so broadly that pretty much any data supports your theory.
What about people who fly to a base, vulch like crazy, and yet die to Ostwinds? What about people who go there to vulch and soon find that their help has all been killed and they are in an untenable situation? They went in with the odds, they expected to survive, they had every reason to survive, and yet they did not. Suicidal? Inept? Or what?
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by MOSQ
Dred,
Your quote about suicide base porkers was mine. I'm glad my quote struck a nerve with you!
I think there is a HUGE difference between suicide base porkers and furballers.
SBPs pay no attention to the plane on their 6. None! They dive in, barely extend, turn around dive in until dead. They ignore ack and other players until dead. When they take off on such missions, they know with certainty they will not return.
And the exact same thing can be said for the bulk of the furballers.
they dive in on a target get target fixated ignore the planes on their 6 until they are dead.
Furballers think baseporking is dweeby cause they claim it messes up their furball. Base porkerd feel furballers are dweeby cause they wont help fight against the horde
Neither particularly cares about living other then to complain when they dont get a check6. forget about checking their own 6 or that the people around them might have been just a bit too busy worrying about their own 6 to give one but thats another issue altogether.
It is the exeption rather then the norm the people that fly to live.
thus it is the norm that people basically are suiciders for the reasons I described above.
but those baseporkers do serve a purpose. when they destroy troops and ammo.
That makes it harder for the Horde Warriors to come in and storm your bases and got for the quick capture which ultimately does ruin your furball.
which is never really ruined to begine with. It just forces it to move to another area.
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This definition is so broad as to be useless . Essentially, any act of dying regardless of the motivation of the player depends on what... the odds? The numbers? First, you cannot possibly measure this for every individual given the data at hand. Second, you have defined "suicidal flying" so broadly that pretty much any data supports your theory.
What about people who fly to a base, vulch like crazy, and yet die to Ostwinds? What about people who go there to vulch and soon find that their help has all been killed and they are in an untenable situation? They went in with the odds, they expected to survive, they had every reason to survive, and yet they did not. Suicidal? Inept? Or what?
-- Todd/Leviathn
inept.:)
But
you know. you keep going on like that and you might eventually get my point
-
Why don't you just rename this thread, "Dredlock's Personal Thread to pound his own chest and call everyone in the game inept, incompetent, and suicidal, without regard for anything beyond his own high opinion of self and low opinion of others, especially excluding fact and logic, while expressly promoting field porking as the only noble, worthwhile action in AH2" so none of us would have wasted a minute on this lame-assed thread.
Cheers,
hub
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
But
you know. you keep going on like that and you might eventually get my point
I think it is you who do not get the point, Drediock. If you want to argue that some form of flying is "better" than another, then go ahead and do it. Using statistics in the way you've asked Zazen will not prove your point; you cannot prove your hypothesis with the data available to us. To make up for this, you continue to broaden your definition of "suicidal" flying so that it basically includes almost any kind of dying.
In any event, distinguishing between inept and suicidal is impossible. Plus you cannot make a normative argument that "suicidal" flying is somehow worse than, say, "realistic" flying. The statistics won't bear that out either.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
HAHA Zazen
I remember you
-
I like to fly in the weeds because it is a way to get people to engage if they see a target much lower than them. I stay below 3K AGL because I hate puffy ack. When I take off I dont INTEND to die, but I would rather fight 5 enemas by myself in an IL2 50 FT off the ground (because the FH's are down and nobody else will take off under the vulchers) than fly for 30 minutes in a mob to gangrape one badguy.
I dont survive many (any?) 10v1's but that doesnt mean I'm suicidal, or that I dont want to RTB, if I choose to fight one. Its about me personally pushing my limits so that each time I take off I've learned someting from the last fight and I'm just that tiny bit better.
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Why don't you just rename this thread, "Dredlock's Personal Thread to pound his own chest and call everyone in the game inept, incompetent, and suicidal, without regard for anything beyond his own high opinion of self and low opinion of others, especially excluding fact and logic, while expressly promoting field porking as the only noble, worthwhile action in AH2" so none of us would have wasted a minute on this lame-assed thread.
Cheers,
hub
Pound my own chest? LMAO no.
And I dont have a low opinion of others.
what I have a low opinion of is when people constantly whine about how others fly when in reality they dont fly any better or live any more consistantly then those they critique wilst pounding their own chests
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I think it is you who do not get the point, Drediock. If you want to argue that some form of flying is "better" than another, then go ahead and do it. Using statistics in the way you've asked Zazen will not prove your point; you cannot prove your hypothesis with the data available to us. To make up for this, you continue to broaden your definition of "suicidal" flying so that it basically includes almost any kind of dying.
In any event, distinguishing between inept and suicidal is impossible. Plus you cannot make a normative argument that "suicidal" flying is somehow worse than, say, "realistic" flying. The statistics won't bear that out either.
-- Todd/Leviathn
nope I get the point just fine. it is after all MY point Im trying to make.
Thing is one form of flying IS NOT any better then any other
THAT is the point.
And you just said so yourself
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is one form of flying IS NOT any better then any other
THAT is the point.
And you just said so yourself
I have been saying that for years. And I'm still telling you that no amount of data collection will prove this one way or another.
-- Todd/Leviathn