Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JBA on February 18, 2005, 01:31:40 PM
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This will allow Hizb'Allah to continue to collect money as a charity in Europe,
Well-done Jacque,
In the bottom article he calls for a probe into the murder of his "friend" Hariri.
You could start by cutting off the money to the group that murdered him you Arrogant Arse.
Even Abbas has called for them to be listed.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1108353358962
http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=headline&artid=2005/02/15/509049703
French President Jacques Chirac on Monday turned down a request from Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom to support placing Hizb'Allah on the EU's list of terrorist organizations, despite growing suspicions that the Syrian-backed terrorist group was responsible for the assassination of former Lebanese leader Rafik Hariri in Beirut on Monday and evidence that the group is trying to torpedo the ceasefire efforts of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas.
http://www.brunei-online.com/bb/fri/feb18w23.htm
The heinous crime, which seems to be from another era, which Rafik Hariri was a victim of, has triggered the horror and consternation of the entire international community which now demands that light be shed in this indescribable and abominable act," Chirac said.
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kinda like IRA collecting money in US?
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Originally posted by Staga
kinda like IRA collecting money in US?
a pathetic comparison but it fits you completely.
I doubt there is anything any arab terrorist can do that you wouldnt try and justify.
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It's not really a pathetic comparison. The US allowed NORAID to collect millions of dollars and send them to fund the IRA, even though NORAID were forced in the courts to declare that the money was going to fund the IRA.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It's not really a pathetic comparison. The US allowed NORAID to collect millions of dollars and send them to fund the IRA, even though NORAID were forced in the courts to declare that the money was going to fund the IRA.
yes it is, there were and probably still are a few thousand at best people in South Boston and parts of new york that supported the IRA. It has always been an exaggeration (or lie) to try and make it a US problem.
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And here I thought Boston was in the US.
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It should be illegal to support the IRA either with public funds or with private funds in the US. I don't believe it's right to fund the IRA from other countries either, but it's not my place to say for example, it should be illegal in France for them to fund the IRA with public or private funds.
Hamas collects funds as a *charity* in Europe as well as Hizbollah (sp) simply because Hamas has a political wing that helps the poor.
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yes it is, there were and probably still are a few thousand at best people in South Boston and parts of new york that supported the IRA. It has always been an exaggeration (or lie) to try and make it a US problem.
Yes, but it was a US government that allowed a charity to exist that had as it's purpose fund raising for a terrorist group.
And the support wasn't that limited. 132 members of congress signed a petition calling for political asylum to be granted to Joseph Doherty, an IRA man convicted of murdering a soldier.
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And your point is?
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Throw paper gliders if you live in a glass house instead of stones?
btw...
When is US going to stop funding a organization which merrily kills civilians?
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/palestina.jpg)
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Man you might wanna remove that pic.
I can't speak for Scuzzy but knowing the way he reacts to these type of thngs it ain't good trust me.
Plus this is a gaming BBS meant for people to enjoy and have fun.
I don't find it fun looking at pic's of dead children if I wanted to there are plenty of other websites just for that kind of sick crap.
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Sometimes truth can be hard to swallow.
Nobody's innocent in middle east but yapping about Hizbollah and Hamas collecting money when you are arming a country which uses caterpillars, missiles and bombs against civilian buildings is kinda immature and, if I may say, idiotic.
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What is the common nominator for these names:
- Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo
- Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
- Gen. Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan Army commander
- Ayatollah Khomeini, leader of Iran
- Muammar Qaddafi
- Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
- Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire
- Salvador Allende, President of Chile
- Fidel Castro
- Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt
Bueller? Anyone?
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Staga the point being that that picture and this rhetoric really does not belong here this a GAMING BBs it is meant to be fun.
And on top of that I don't think HTC's members would approve of this in a thread if there kids happen to walk up behind them and see this.
Yes Yes I know it's a big bad world out there but our children deserve better than this don't you think?
Now just so you know I do not agree with everything my Gov does or supports.
I can only make my voice heard in my vote every four years.
Is America perfect LOL ofcoures not we have huge problems in our own country that I would love to see addressed.
Like our ever increasing homeless population.
Our kids not getting the education they need to compete in a world market place.
The list could go on and on.
So indeed on some points you and I may be in agreement on some issues.
But on this one( posting graphic pictures on a family fun BBs)
I will have to strongly disagree with you sir.
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Originally posted by Staga
Throw paper gliders if you live in a glass house instead of stones?
btw...
When is US going to stop funding a organization which merrily kills civilians?
Damn Jews. How dare they defend themselves. They should just lay down and let themselves be killed and be done with it, so Staga and his ilk can find someone else to hate.
I hate to break it to you, but there's only one 'side' down there that deliberately targets civilians, and it's your side pal. If your heroes choose to launch bullets and rockets from behind the people they are supposedly fighting for (another big lie, swallowed whole by you, like some other things no doubt) then you should try to place the blame accurately.
Or, run a test for me. You and a buddy go to Israel. Your buddy carries a video camera. Walk through Tel Aviv in broad daylight with a tshirt that has the PLO emblem on the front. Document what happens to you.
Then repeat the exercise walking through the Gaza strip with a tshirt with the Israeli flag on it.
Then come back and talk to me about intolerance, genocide, intentional murder of civilians, and moral equivalence. Or at the very least have your friend give me a copy of the tape that shows you being killed by your heroes.
Mike/wulfie
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Staga the point being that that picture and this rhetoric really does not belong here this a GAMING BBs it is meant to be fun.
If that was the case then this whole topic shouldn't exist here. It's only when things turn bad against YOU that it starts to bother you, instead of just puking on others from your moral high standpoint.
Damn Jews. How dare they defend themselves. They should just lay down and let themselves be killed and be done with it, so Staga and his ilk can find someone else to hate.
Aaand que the victim card. Just in time.
It is extremely hard to justify bulldozing occupied civillian buildings, what ever was the reason. How about bulldozing that naive american girl some time back? She was guilty only to stupidity when she thought the bulldozer driver would actually care if he ran over an american 20-year old beautiful girl standing in front of him in clear daylight.
What they do down there is wrong. There's no way around it.
I've always thought that the whole deal of putting up Israel was an extreme error from the international community. Nothing but bloodshed and violence has resulted from that. Wars after wars, murder of innocent civillians (both Israeli and x country) etc. Total insanity the whole thing.
But as it is too late to reverse the process, why can't they just declare a border on the west strip, start regular border control, expell every possible palestinian that could cause trouble and get over with it? Instead of bulldozing them to the ground and causing more fear and hate.
It's like they would have an open inflammated wound on thier leg and they would keep digging it with a knife instead of trying to clean the wound and putting a band-aid on it.
*Ouch!* .. Bad BAD WOUND! *Stab stab* THERE!... *OOOUCH* Repeat and rinse.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
And here I thought Boston was in the US.
And here I thought that some scummy Americans doing something that I think they should be in jail for would still make it possible for other Americans to voice their disapproval of other terrorist organizations.
Being the Devil's Advocate certainly has its moments, but you have to agree that Staga's reasoning makes him look like a complete and total idiot.
American AH BBS poster (who has never said anything in support of the IRA): "This terrorist group should not be allowed to receive funding".
Staga (being missed desperately in a small village somewhere in Finland): "Oh yeah? Well 2 or 3 decades ago some Americans in the Northeastern U.S. gave money to the IRA! How dare you denounce Hizb'Allah!".
Yeah, can't speak out against suicide bombing terrorists unless you come from a Nation that has never done anything morally questionable. Okay. No one can speak against anything. End of the O'Club. :)
Mike/wulfie
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He was only protesting your double standard wulfie.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If that was the case then this whole topic shouldn't exist here. It's only when things turn bad against YOU that it starts to bother you, instead of just puking on others from your moral high standpoint.
Aaand que the victim card. Just in time.
It is extremely hard to justify bulldozing occupied civillian buildings, what ever was the reason. How about bulldozing that naive american girl some time back? She was guilty only to stupidity when she thought the bulldozer driver would actually care if he ran over an american 20-year old beautiful girl standing in front of him in clear daylight.
What they do down there is wrong. There's no way around it.
I've always thought that the whole deal of putting up Israel was an extreme error from the international community. Nothing but bloodshed and violence has resulted from that. Wars after wars, murder of innocent civillians (both Israeli and x country) etc. Total insanity the whole thing.
But as it is too late to reverse the process, why can't they just declare a border on the west strip, start regular border control, expell every possible palestinian that could cause trouble and get over with it? Instead of bulldozing them to the ground and causing more fear and hate.
It's like they would have an open inflammated wound on thier leg and they would keep digging it with a knife instead of trying to clean the wound and putting a band-aid on it.
Ok then name one part of this thread that serves any purpose than to incite people deep seating feeling on what is a hot bed of controversy?
And I can never see where the pictures of dead mangles kids serves any purpose as In entertainment of a computer flight sim!
You euros seem to relish in bashing American foreign policy.
Hey guess what we AMERICANS bash it enough that you we really don't need nor want you're advice on how the run the richest most powerful country on earth.
I think we have done just fine thank you very much.
Now my grief is not with the political content of the thread my grip
is simply with the discussion picture that was posted.
If It Is against HTC policy to post pictures of the nude female breast (which in my opinion Is one of God's greatest creations).
Then surely the posting of a mangled dead child should go against the rules as well.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Jenin! Jenin! Jenin! Oh wait it never happened!
Yes, everyone knows, especially you, that buildings are bulldozed based on blindfolded dart throwing games that take place amongst the IDF officers.
2 Facts:
1. Israeli civilians are intentionally targeted by various terrorist organizations that people like you somehow manage to find legitimate.
2. If the IDF was as hell-bent to kill Palestinian civilians as people like you claim they are, the losses amongst the Palestinian civilians would be much greater.
I won't get into a debate over the creation of Israel. It's here, and it's here to stay, much to the chagrin of a bunch of antisemetic arabs who got taught a lesson in what tough really is a few times.
I will say that I believe that if the enemies of Israel had the same superiority of firepower over Israel that Israel has over the Palestinians, Israel would be gone tomorrow.
"But as it is too late to reverse the process, why can't they just declare a border on the west strip, start regular border control, expell every possible palestinian that could cause trouble and get over with it? Instead of bulldozing them to the ground and causing more fear and hate."
Call the IDF and tell them of your special secret technique to detect "every possible palestinian that could cause trouble"? I'm sure they'd be more than eager to speak with you.
I'm sorry, but when the new leader of the Palestinian people declares that a group should be delisted to prevent it from funding terrorists bent on the murder of Israelis, even terrorist apologists like yourselves should take a step back and actually think about the gravity of such a statement.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
He was only protesting your double standard wulfie.
That's why he posted before I ever posted in the thread?
I admit it, your reasoning and intellect are far beyond my simple powers of comprehension. Keep me posted on the IDF's application of your "Possible Palestinian Troublemaker Detector". :)
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wombatt
You euros
You shouldn't say that. There are plenty of Europeans risking life and limb to kill arabic and/or islamic terrorists. The 'euro' posters on this BBS have nothing in common with them except the Nation they call home.
Using a lable like 'you euros' is stooping to the level of the people you are annoyed by in this case.
Think of the 'euros' that annoy you as their version of our 'Hollywood Elite'. I can't stand it when people equate the opinoins of Barbara Streisand with the opinions of every American. Along those lines a lot of the European military personel I have worked with have been embarrased by the public sentiments of their more visible and mentally unstable countrymen.
Mike/wulfie
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If the pic would be about Israelis pulling a children out from bus some terrorist just blew up would it bother you as much as that one?
Wulfie wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but there's only one 'side' down there that deliberately targets civilians, and it's your side pal. If your heroes choose to launch bullets and rockets from behind the people they are supposedly fighting for (another big lie, swallowed whole by you, like some other things no doubt) then you should try to place the blame accurately.
Maybe my english isn't as good as it could be but I still think I made my stance quite clear when I wrote "Nobody's innocent in middle east".
Of course it's easier for you to say terrorists are my "heroes" and belittle me... It's all up to you.
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Originally posted by Staga
If the pic would be about Israelis pulling a children out from bus some terrorist just blew up would it bother you as much as that one?
The picture didn't bother me. You're thinking of someone else. To answer anyways, I can empathize with all children caught in a war regardless of Nationality.
But you have to ask yourself - if one group of guys sets up a sniper team in an apartment surrounded by apartments occupied by 'their' civilians, and the return fire causes some of 'their civilians' to be killed...who is more responsible for the deaths of those civilians?
Sure, they could evacuate the building. But then the IDF might detect such activity and be prepared for an attack.
The terrorists attacking Israel don't give a damn about the Palestinian people. They are out to kill Jews and that's all they care about. Maybe now that the leader of the Palestinians isn't a potato to these very same terrorists, the Palestinian people won't be caught in the middle. One can hope.
But to expect IDF soldiers to not take action when their people are about to be attacked or are being attacked is to expect the impossble. Nobody may have spotless hands, but almost everyone's are a whole lot cleaner than those of the various groups out to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Your comment about the IDF 'merrily' killing Palestinian civilians shows you are a liar or are seriously misinformed.
Mike/wulfie
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And England belongs in Ireland for what reason??
The last bastion of English colonialism. Give it up.
On the other hand, the IRA is a terrorist organization. There actions cannot be excused.
I see both sides. What I don't undersatnd is why England is there, or why she insists on staying.
Can a couple of our friends from that side of 'the pond' explain to me why?
Why is England there?
Why should they be there?
Why can't the IRA resolve its' issues peacefully?
Why can't the people of Ireland decide for themselves if they want to be a subject of England, or their own country. ( I've seen the results of a few votes)
It's just a damn bloody mess over there. Personaly, I think there's just too much emotion to ever solve it rationaly. I hope I'm just on the wrong side of the black and tan (guinness and bass) tonight and talking out of my ass. I would like to hear from some of you guys over there that have more of a stake in it than I do.
A posting contest is not what I want, I'm not trying to create an argument between our Irish and English posters. I just want some personal perspectives from some of the people that have a stake in the situation.
<
Someone said Dutch too, but I'm waiting for the proof:p
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Keep me posted on the IDF's application of your "Possible Palestinian Troublemaker Detector".
That means booting every palestinian that isn't tied to the Israeli society by marriage or such. Forming of independent Palestinian state and keeping them behind the border.
It's 100% sure a better solution than forming continuously new colonies next to Palestinians, getting attacked and then retaliate.
The neverending cycle of violence has to be stopped. I really don't give a rats bellybutton if they genocide the whole bunch. Go ahead.
Just make the endless fighting and suffering end. Live like normal people for christs sakes!
That's why he posted before I ever posted in the thread?
FYI 'you' was being used in the general sense, meaning the double standard of your nation, not you personally. But.. I guess you missed that in spite of the fact that you didn't post before his reply.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
meaning the double standard of your nation
What double standard are you refering to?
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Yikes.. Do you really have to have it spelled out for you?
This thread was accusing euros of letting a terrorist group to raise funds in europe as charity.
You were pointed that you let the same thing happen on US soil. Hence double standard. I was partly wrong to use the word 'your nation' but it's 100% as accurate as saying 'you euros' so here I go.
I won't even go into details with CIA helping the mujahadeens etc.
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So you equate OBL and his ilk(his ilk being Hammas et al) with the Irish people that want their country back?
The same could be said about the founders of my country.
Or do you equate them with the Israeli people?
All I'm asking for is an explanation of your position. You can generalize everything to include whatever you want. State what you believe.
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I believe that you should get off your high horse and stop accusing others of the thing you do yourselves.
That's what I believe.
If this thread was made in a constructive manner it would be a totally different ballgame. One can question the reasoning behind Chirac's stance but on the other hand banning a political faction of another country is also questionable.
The whole issue here is mostly anger from the fact that the EU refuses to do whatever Israel demands it to do.
I believe that all terror related organizations should be put out of function immediately and the government forces that secretly support them should be put in a trial.
I also believe that the actions done by the Israeli government that have lead to the deaths of bystanders should also be investigated and the guilty parties put to trial for thier crimes.
As long as people continue to get scott free for crimes committed on whatever pretense, things will continue as they were and we will have to continue to read news about killings here and there, pain and suffering not to mention people who actually have to live in those conditions.
I say form a real border between the palestinians and the Israelis and get over with it.
So you equate OBL and his ilk(his ilk being Hammas et al) with the Irish people that want their country back?
They both use the same means for thier goals. Terror is terror, unfortunately.
I really don't know how the Irish live today but I suspect the English government is not oppressive on them. As far as I know the Irish live a regular life if you count out the war on terror. As long as there won't be a full blown war in order to take Ireland back, all that is left is politics really. Terror attacks are causing more trouble than good for anyones cause.
Is there anything (and I mean anything) positive the IRA has achieved in all these years of violence?
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One thing I've noticed about europe from reading their news is that it's actually a lot more racists than north america. Europeans think jews are an ethnicity, as well as the roma, and there's still a lot of residual antisemitism as well as antiprotestantism and anything else. They confuse nationality with ethnicity. I see the term ethnic[insert nationality here] a lot. Do the basque still think that they're a race? What about the albanians and the serbs? I actually talked to a russian who used the term "ethnic russian". LOL. If you told them that europeans are all the same ethnicity, white, they'd probably take offense.
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The point of this thread was how it's bad and stupid to give money to terrorists. And then somebody countered that point by bringing up other people giving money to other terrorists(IRA) as if it was relevant inasmuch as it would influence how people percieve the badness and stupidity of giving money to terrorists. But it doesn't.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I believe that you should get off your high horse and stop accusing others of the thing you do yourselves.
I'm not on any high horse, I'm just asking questions. Don't be so defensive
I say form a real border between the palestinians and the Israelis and get over with it.
I think the Isralis tried that. The wall they put up caused a general outcry from the side of the world you live on.
They both use the same means for thier goals. Terror is terror, unfortunately.
This is what bothers me. Granted, both sides have been brutal. But Israel just wants their peace of mind, their lives, their home. The people that are fighting them want the eradication of the Jewish people. I don't see any logic in the guilt that you place on this situation.
I don't expect to persuade anyone to change their minds, so I'm not going to get into a detailed analysis of the situation over there. As far as Ireland is concerned, what does it matter if they are 'oppressed'? Ireland was an independant country, it is now under the rule of another country.
Again, I am not going to take a position in that fight. The IRA has done many horrible things. I don't support the wholesale killing of civilians in a fight like that, or the conquest of another country. The behaviour of the conquering country doesn't factor into the fact that they are the 'conquering' country.
I really don't know how the Irish live today but I suspect the English government is not oppressive on them. As far as I know the Irish live a regular life
Is there anything positive the IRA has achieved?
The answer to that depends on your position to their situation.
Negative? Absolutely, irregardless of your position.
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I think the Isralis tried that. The wall they put up caused a general outcry from the side of the world you live on.
That is because they wanted to form a ghetto without giving the palestinians independence. There's a huge difference you know.
If the Israelis really want to live in peace, why do they continuously form new colonies and bulldoze palestinian housing in order to achieve that? To me it seems purely a provocation.
If you told them that europeans are all the same ethnicity, white, they'd probably take offense.
That's because it's pretty much true. For example Albanians can be spotted from thier looks quite easily. That means it's no longer a question of just a nationality. Greece has a huge problem with illegal immigrants from Albania. People are forced to install bars on thier windows and hire security companies because of the thieving albanians. It is estimated that about half a million albanians live illegally in Greece. The main source of income for them is crime.
The main difference between the US and the europe is that in europe we are not politically correct, we don't censor everything possible and we say things as they are.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That is because they wanted to form a ghetto without giving the palestinians independence. There's a huge difference you know.
If the Israelis really want to live in peace, why do they continuously form new colonies and bulldoze palestinian housing in order to achieve that? To me it seems purely a provocation.
If they wanted new 'colonies' they wouldn't wall themselves in. They don't want to create a 'ghetto', they want to secure their people. Israel offered the palistinian people their own country several years ago, it was refused. They bulldoze settlements in response to attacks on their citizens, the settlements being petri dishes of terrorism.
If you told them that europeans are all the same ethnicity, white, they'd probably take offense.[/B]
I didn't say that and I have no idea what you are talking about.
That's because it's pretty much true. For example Albanians can be spotted from thier looks quite easily. That means it's no longer a question of just a nationality. Greece has a huge problem with illegal immigrants from Albania. People are forced to install bars on thier windows and hire security companies because of the thieving albanians. It is estimated that about half a million albanians live illegally in Greece. The main source of income for them is crime.
The main difference between the US and the europe is that in europe we are not politically correct, we don't censor everything possible and we say things as they are.
So you hate Albanians and Jews? What was the point of that last quote?
The incarceration rate of blacks in America is much higher than any other ethnicity. So if I see a black person I assume he is a criminal???
african-american is the PC term, but I don't use it
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Originally posted by Lazerus
<
Someone said Dutch too, but I'm waiting for the proof:p
If you start salivating reading the word "kroket" there is a good chance you have Dutch blood :D
And if you're idea of heaven on earth is bread with butter and hagelslag ... well you're dutch ;)
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Originally posted by Suave
...Do the basque still think that they're a race? ...
Yes ,all the one I know.
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Originally posted by Suave
Do the basque still think that they're a race?
incroyable!!:eek:
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And your point is?
My point is, an American in one of the typical anti-Europe post here is attacking a European government (and the whole EU) for failing to stop a middle east terrorist group raising funds in Europe.
It's rather hypocritical when the US failed to stop a European terrorist group raising funds in the US for 30 years.
If it was so easy defining terrorist groups, perhaps the US would have banned IRA fundraising in the US?
And England belongs in Ireland for what reason??
England isn't in Ireland.
England is in England, Wales in Wales, Scotlant in Scotland, Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland, the Irish Republic in southern Ireland.
I see both sides. What I don't undersatnd is why England is there, or why she insists on staying.
England isn't there. I think you mean
"Why is Northern Ireland still part of the UK?"
and the answer to that is because the majority of the population of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK.
Britain is a democracy. That applies to each part of Britain, which can choose to break away if it wants to. The majority of the people of Nrthern Ireland don't want to.
Why is England there?
Why should they be there?
Again, England isn't there.
Why should Northern Ireland be part of the UK? Because the people vote in every election for parties that want to remain part of the UK, despite having a free choice of other parties that don't.
Why is America in Hawaii? Why should they be there?
Why can't the people of Ireland decide for themselves if they want to be a subject of England, or their own country. ( I've seen the results of a few votes)
How are the people of Northern Ireland "subject of England"?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. It has 18 MPs in parliament (More per head of population than England).
Why are the people of Hawaii subject to America?
( I've seen the results of a few votes)
Care to say which ones?
Here are the results for all elections in Northern Ireland since 1973:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/
It's worth noting that the largest party in Northern Ireland in both the recent Assembly election and the European elections is the Democratic Unionist Party, the party founded and run by Ian Paisley (until he retired a few years ago).
It's just a damn bloody mess over there. Personaly, I think there's just too much emotion to ever solve it rationaly.
It's solved rationally.
There are organised crime groups on both sides of the community that don't want to give up their lucrative criminal careers, and cloak them in "politics", but to normal people the issues are clear.
All the terrorist groups are now is organised crime "families" along the lines of the mafia.
Witness the two latest IRA actions, a £26 million bank robbery, and the murder of a man during an argument outside a pub, and the intimidation of the locals into not talking to the police.
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It never fails to amaze me how easily you look to our past to justify your present. Talk about your double standards, if you have any standards at all. Well you and your leaders can keep your head in the sand and pray the big bad terrorist stick to jews and americans.
No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies. Dean Acheson
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I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air. Margaret Thatcher
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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Winston Churchill
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No man can tame a tiger into a kitten by stroking it. There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb. Franklin D Roosevelt
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Appeasers believe that if you keep on throwing steaks to a tiger, the tiger will become a vegetarian. Heywood Broun
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The one sure way to conciliate a tiger is to allow oneself to be devoured. Konrad Adenauer
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Originally posted by Lazerus
If they wanted new 'colonies' they wouldn't wall themselves in. They don't want to create a 'ghetto', they want to secure their people. Israel offered the palistinian people their own country several years ago, it was refused. They bulldoze settlements in response to attacks on their citizens, the settlements being petri dishes of terrorism.
You should read more about what kind of deal was offered to Palestinians.
They were offered a "home lands" just like in South-Africa at the era of Apartheid; areas isolated from each other connected by narrow passages which would have been guarded by Israeli troops.
They had a change to accept living in ghettoes; would you accept living like that???
Yeah I thought so.
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I believe that wulfie is on the right track.. I beleieve the jews have shown remarkable restraint.
If I were them I would use any terrorist attack by pallestinians on civilians in their own homes as a reason to declare war on palestine.. I would then take their land and move em all out of the country.
If mexican terrorists were killing civilians in southern U.S. And the Mexican government wouldn't stop it you can bet we would be taking their country away from em.
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I won't even go into details with CIA helping the mujahadeens etc.
No - please. Spell it out and go into details. Explain it to me. I want to know what you think about the CIA helping 'the mujadeens'.
Explain to me what the point of this statement is.
(Wulfie lets the bat slip into his left hand, and points into the stands behind right field) :)
Mike/wulfie
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Nashwan - forget even trying to argue using reason, fact and truth.
The currency of this BBS is falsification, exaggeration and ignorance; people like Lazarus hold the keys to the vault.
I wonder how many Americans secretly or openly admired the IRA prior to Sept 11th 2001. Of them, how many really changed their minds?
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Wulfie how can you imagine you can hit anything if you're blind?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1
'nuff said.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Nashwan - forget even trying to argue using reason, fact and truth.
The currency of this BBS is falsification, exaggeration and ignorance; people like Lazarus hold the keys to the vault.
I wonder how many Americans secretly or openly admired the IRA prior to Sept 11th 2001. Of them, how many really changed their minds?
Lazerus is just asking questions. I have never admired the IRA secretly or openly. I know of no American's who have or do. Granted I only know a very small percentage of our population though :)
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Originally posted by Dowding
I wonder how many Americans secretly or openly admired the IRA prior to Sept 11th 2001. Of them, how many really changed their minds?
Very few but feel free to believe whatever makes you feel superior.
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lol Staga
you dont poke people when you wanna get a point across do you? You really swing the bat!
BATMAN!
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Originally posted by Lazerus
If they wanted new 'colonies' they wouldn't wall themselves in. They don't want to create a 'ghetto', they want to secure their people.
Than how do you explain this?
"Settlement population rose by 6 percent in 2004
11/01/2005
By Relly Sa'ar, Haaretz Correspondent
The number of people living in the West Bank and Gaza settlements increased by 6 percent last year, according to statistics published Sunday by the Interior Ministry's Population Registry.
In 2004, 250,179 people lived in the territories, compared to 236,381 in 2003 - an increase of 13,798. In the Gaza Strip alone, there was an 11 percent increase in the number of residents in Jewish settlements. In 2004, 8,693 people lived in 17 settlements, compared to 7,820 in 2003.
The chief growth in the number of Gush Katif residents (7 percent of the total growth) occurred in the second half of 2004, after the disengagement plan was first publicized in July. The highest rate of growth (61 percent) was recorded in the smallest settlement, Shalev, which had 42 residents in 2004 compared to 26 in 2003.
The largest settlement in the Gaza Strip, Neve Dekalim, took in 103 new residents in 2004, an increase of 4 percent since 2002, when it had 2,568 residents. Other settlements also grew, such as Kfar Darom (a 29 percent increase), Netzarim (25 percent) and Netzer Hazani (21 percent) in comparison with 2003.
The four settlements in the West Bank that are included in the disengagement plan also experienced growth over the past year, compared to 2003. In Sa-Nur, the number of residents nearly tripled last year. In 2003, it had 38 residents, in 2004 - 105. In Kadim, there was a 12 percent increase, with 151 residents in 2003, compared to 169 last year. The populations of Ganim and Hermesh increased by 6 and 7 percent, respectively.
Some of the larger West Bank settlements also increased their population, according to Interior Ministry data. The ultra-Orthodox city of Modi'in Ilit grew by 14 percent, bringing the number of residents to 27,301 in 2004. In Ma'aleh Adumim, the growth rate was 6 percent, as 1,800 newcomers moved into the city, bringing its population to 28,546. With 17,555 people last year, Ariel registered no increase."
*Source: http://www.haaretzdaily.com, Monday January 10, 2005.
Israel offered the palistinian people their own country several years ago, it was refused.
Oh bull****, Isreal offered to chop of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and give some of it back to the Palisinians. I wonder what you would think of that if Mexico offered to do the same thing with US south.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Oh bull****, Isreal offered to chop of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and give some of it back to the Palisinians. I wonder what you would think of that if Mexico offered to do the same thing with US south.
so when are you canadians giving canada back to the indians?
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Originally posted by Krusher
so when are you canadians giving canada back to the indians?
Sorry, do the indians have internationally recognised boarders? Secondly, we paid and continue to pay for that land when we renigotiate treaties. Is isreal buying the land the settlements are on? No, they are stealing it.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sorry, do the indians have internationally recognised boarders? Secondly, we paid and continue to pay for that land when we renigotiate treaties. Is isreal buying the land the settlements are on? No, they are stealing it.
ahhh I see , when exactly was palistine a country ?
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Are you a communist, Krusher? Do you not believe in property rights?
The legitamacy of the Palestinian claim to statehood is irrelevant when it comes to the question of an individual householder's rights to his land and property.
Elfie- if many Americans show the same lack of knowledge and blatant ignorance of the Northern Ireland situation as Lazarus then I wouldn't be surprised if support for the IRA is more widespread than you believe. Afterall, many British people don't know the basic facts so why should Americans?
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Originally posted by Krusher
so when are you canadians giving canada back to the indians?
when you won't be a troll anymore or "quand les poules auront des dents".
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Originally posted by Krusher
ahhh I see , when exactly was palistine a country ?
When it was part of the British Empire. What's more it has internationally recognised borders.
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oooh! lol
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Wulfie how can you imagine you can hit anything if you're blind?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1
'nuff said.
Put up or shut up. Don't link to a news article. Explain to me what the point of your statement about the CIA and ''the mujadeens' (as you call them).
State your point and back it up. How hard can it be? After all, you're so much more well-informed and I am 'blind'.
"'nuff said"? You haven't said anything. You posted a link to an MSNBC news story? I am under-freaking-whelmed.
Mike/wulfie
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I won't waste my time if you're that ignorant wulfie. Nice try tho.
I rate you in the '1 quick Google search' category. :rofl
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I won't waste my time if you're that ignorant wulfie. Nice try tho.
I rate you in the '1 quick Google search' category. :rofl
I see how it is.
You say "I won't even go into details with CIA helping the mujahadeens etc."
I say "No, please, go into details."
You say "No, I won't waste my time because you're so ignorant".
I'll waste my time (a little of it).
The whole premise of 'Chickens coming home to roost' + 'Usama' + CIA backing of various Muj and Afghani warlords is total nonsense. Anyone who espouses it or believes it has no knolwedge of the actual history of events (yes I'm referring to you as well as others - you can make your 'ignorant' and '1 quick google search' comments all you want - I spent over a year of my life in Afghanistan - feel free to STFU about topics where your knolwedge consists of reading an article from MSNBC).
First off, the topic of the thread dealt with groups being allowed to fund known terrorist organisations. Explain to me how the CIA and the U.K. providing support to Afghani warlords thru the ISI pertains to this?
Secondly, the 'Chickens coming home to roost' analogy as applied to Usama is idiotic. Usama was a minor player as far as CIA-backed (thru the ISI) fighters opposing the Soviets go. He arrived late on the scene and talked a good jihad. The vast majority of the fighters aided by the West thru the ISI remained very loyal to the U.S., the U.K., and the 'West' in general. Ever heard of the Northern Alliance? Any idea how quickly Afghani warlords led their fighters to join the Northern Alliance once the Taliban leaders and their Al-Q thugs fled the area? I didn't think so.
'Chickens coming home to roost'? Give me a break. Usama was a traitor to the people who helped 'his' jihad when it needed help to avoid being wiped out. Usama and his ilk and the Taliban started trying to rewrite history as soon as they were in power. No longer was it aid from outside Nations that made the difference against the Soviets - now it was 'The will of Allah'. Fortunately for the U.S. after 11SEP01, the vast majority of the Warlords and their fighters remembered what really happened.
You're not trying to avoid wasting time. You tried to slip in a cleverly worded lie to support a stupid argument and got called on it, and your only response was to insult me in what you apparently considered to be a witty manner.
Maybe some day I'll be as cool as you. :)
Mike/wulfie
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Wulfie you are free to believe what you want. If you served down there years after any of the mentioned events took place it hardly says anything.
You're most likely a grunt whose job is to follow orders and ask no questions. That's quite ok to me.
I'm sure that the russians provided the muhajadeens all those stingers themselves so they could test the battleworthyness of thier aircraft. CIA had no role in the whole thing etc. In fact, US has never used any outside groups for its purpose and have it backfire.
So you're right wulfie. :aok
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Wulfie you are free to believe what you want. If you served down there years after any of the mentioned events took place it hardly says anything.
Really? Even when the liasons between the Coalition forces and the various warlords were personally involved in the events we're talking about and briefed us on their experiences to aid us in dealing with the locals?
I guess getting told stories about fighting the Russians by fighters that actually fought them doesn't count for much with you either. Not a suprise really.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
You're most likely a grunt whose job is to follow orders and ask no questions. That's quite ok to me.
Wrong again. But no surpise there either. "Ask no questions"? Give me a break Captain Cliche. The 'lowliest' 19 years-old combat Marine is expected to use his head.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I'm sure that the russians provided the muhajadeens all those stingers themselves so they could test the battleworthyness of thier aircraft. CIA had no role in the whole thing etc. In fact, US has never used any outside groups for its purpose and have it backfire.
Your ignorance on the topic-at-hand is showing (again). Nearly all (99% or more) Western assistance (mostly $$$ from the U.S. and U.K., matched by the Saudis, said $$$ being spent on communications gear more than anything else) was routed thru The govt. of Pakistan. There were various reasons for this, including the U.S. and the U.K. wanting to remain a 'step removed' and thus playing by the same rules that the Soviets did in Viet Nam. Also, Pakistan's military and intelligence communities had no shortage of devout Muslims and they considered the eviction of the Soviets to be 'their war'. Pakistani special operations personnel fought inside Afghanistan alongside the Muj and various Warlord's fighters more than once.
If you had any knolwedge of the subject, either thru reading non-MSNBC sensationalist sources or discussions with the people involved, you'd know that CIA officers were forbidden except on 1 or 2 occasions to enter Afghanistan itself and that the vast majority of the paramilitary training given to various Muj and Afghani fighters was given by Pakistani Special Operations and Intelligence types. One of the main reasons for this was not having to worry overmuch about cultural and language barriers as much as if you had an American trying to train guys thru an interpreter. Another reason was that the Pakistanis wanted control over the tempo of the support being provided to the Afghanis. They were constantly worried about the Soviets rolling right on into Pakistan to crush the biggest and closest source of support for the Afghani fighters.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So you're right wulfie. :aok
Why don't you show in detail how I am wrong?
Mike/wulfie
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Your ignorance on the topic-at-hand is showing (again). Nearly all (99% or more) Western assistance (mostly $$$ from the U.S. and U.K., matched by the Saudis, said $$$ being spent on communications gear more than anything else) was routed thru The govt. of Pakistan. There were various reasons for this, including the U.S. and the U.K. wanting to remain a 'step removed' and thus playing by the same rules that the Soviets did in Viet Nam. Also, Pakistan's military and intelligence communities had no shortage of devout Muslims and they considered the eviction of the Soviets to be 'their war'. Pakistani special operations personnel fought inside Afghanistan alongside the Muj and various Warlord's fighters more than once.
So you agree that your government did aid and train forces down there, however indirect it was officially. Good. What was your point again?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So you agree that your government did aid and train forces down there, however indirect it was officially. Good. What was your point again?
Sure we did, I'm not sure how that is a bad thing though.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So you agree that your government did aid and train forces down there, however indirect it was officially. Good. What was your point again?
My point(s) are these:
1. When 90% or more of the Warlords, along with their fighters that were trained and/or supplied by the U.S. (AND the U.K., AND Saudi Arabia, AND some other Nations as well - which kind of kills any point you thought you had about 'U.S.-trained chickens coming home to roost' before any discussion even starts) aided and/or fought on the side of the U.S. the first chance they got after 11SEP01, it shows your "I won't even get into CIA backing of the Muj" (paraphrase there, but close enough) to be the idiotic statement that it was.
We helped them.
They didn't forget.
They helped us when we needed it.
2. Your comment(s?) about Stinger missiles appear to be along the same lines. We supplied the Muj and Warlord groups with these MANPADS and this was somehow a bad decision and "would come back to haunt us". When was the last time a Stinger was used against us? Give me the incident, the date, etc. In case you don't know too much about MANPADS (I'm betting you don't), it is very unlikely that any of the Stingers supplied to the fighters in Afghanistan is in working order today.
3. Your comment about the CIA and the Muj was pointless to start with. They weren't recognized terrorists when we helped them, and only a very small % of them have 'gone down that road' some ~30 years later. If you're telling me that it was a bad decision because no one was able to predict that a very small % of the guys we aided and trained eventually 'turned to the dark side', then I'd say if you were ever making such calls nothing would ever be done. Because nothing is a surefire bet in matters such as these. And in the case of the Muj and the Afghani fighters (as compared to other similar cases) the blowback is effectively 'zero'. Usama hated the U.S. and if he didn't get a course in 'Insurgent comms and cell structure 101' from the CIA he would have gotten it from someone else (Fundamentalist Muslims working for the Paki ISI maybe? Where a lot of his lieutenants got there training?). His tactical trainers were Chechens who served in the Soviet military (some with fairly long light infantry and/or special operations backgrounds) and Arab special operations and intelligence types who were released to help him by sympathetic governments (just like every 'insurgent' crossing into Iraq from Syria probably gets a crash course in battlefield reconaissance from a Syrian 'advisor'). So the operators that took part in the 11SEP01 attacks got the vast majority of their tactical, operational, and fieldcraft-related training from sources that had no connection with the CIA.
There's no comparison that can be made between groups funding Hizb'Allah and the U.S. support of Afghani fighters (thru the Pakis) while they fought against Soviet invaders.
So - when you made your CIA and Muj comment - or said "You won't even get into it" - what was your point again?
Mike/wulfie
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I think you focus too much on the first article that I googled in response to you. :rofl
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The moral equivalent argument is weak at best.
"you let a group collect money so its ok to let this group collect"
Childish attempt to gloss over a serious problem with the state of affairs in France. And Frances attempt to be the solo voice in the EU.
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And so reappear JBA 64 post after starting the thread and having not contributed at all
Belch.
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This will allow Hizb'Allah to continue to collect money as a charity in Europe,
All the side tracking crap aside, I don't see the problem in this. Hizbollah, after all, is the only organization that offers humanitarian aid and help to the poor and sick in many areas, where Israeli healthcare does not extend. They're the local Red Cross.
That's the other extreme end of their operations. The other end, different organization, is the one that is the militant one.
I suspect many whiners in this thread have never read any articles or saw any photos of the Hizbollah humanitarian organization at work. I have, written by respected western journalists.
Things are not black and white in this world, mates.
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Allow me to give this one a try lads.....
Ahem.
Originally posted by Lazerus
And England belongs in Ireland for what reason??
Because if we weren't the death toll in Northern Ireland would be 20 times what it is.
Originally posted by Lazerus
The last bastion of English colonialism. Give it up.
Who told you that rubbish?
Originally posted by Lazerus
On the other hand, the IRA is a terrorist organization. There actions cannot be excused.
Then you and I agree on something.
Originally posted by Lazerus
I see both sides. What I don't undersatnd is why England is there, or why she insists on staying.
Because........without the Army there to keep the peace lots of innocent civilians would be murdered. Irishmen have been murdering Irishmen for decades, for lots of reasons. Some Irishmen want to be part of the British commonwealth, some don't. Some Irishmen want to follow the Catholic faith, some would prefer to follow the Protestant faith......same God......different religion. And guess what mate, where there is religious diversity there will be strife.
Now ok, sure, you may be thinking in this modern day and age.....in a civilised western country......what need would there be for armed peacekeepers just because of a few religious disagreements?
Here's your answer: Just under 3 years ago a small Catholic primary school closed down and the pupils (aged 6-11) were transferred to another Catholic school not far away.......however their new walk to school took them through a Protestant area of town.........wanna know what happened? They got stoned. No not on pot, they got stones thrown at them......by adults. Kids as young as 6 being pelted with stones purely cos Dad believes God doesn't want him to use a condom. And so now the British Army escorts these children to school in the morning. And ya know what else? If I had to be a soldier I'd want that job.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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Originally posted by straffo
And so reappear JBA 64 post after starting the thread and having not contributed at all
Belch.
weekend dude. I don't waste my time with you guys when I'm with my kids.
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And guess what mate, where there is religious diversity there will be strife.
America has tons of religious diversity, yet we dont have people stoning other peoples kids because of religious views. Whats wrong with those Irish?
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Originally posted by JBA
weekend dude. I don't waste my time with you guys when I'm with my kids.
my "beep" you usually just post a link and go away this thread is not an exception but more you usual behaviour.