Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: tikky on February 18, 2005, 03:42:04 PM
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The element of surprise is not there anymore... gives too much information
for example...
flying 109F makes them think you're the G-10... not anymore
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Check the discussion of this topic under the "New Patch" header.
New Patch (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143405)
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So now you actually have to fight the enemy fairly, instead of using a cheap and silly advantage?
Great idea that I was asking for years ago. Better late than never.
J_A_B
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Actually it just evens up the playing field. Icon changes to specific identifier at under 1000yds. Even without the new icon scheme I was able to pretty much know what I was fighting against inside of 600 or 700yds anyway with some exceptions (P-47D-25/P47D-40 for example).
asw
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:mad: Dont like this... Now everyone knows my A8 isnt really a D9
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if that is your "advantage" you got other things you need to work on.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
:mad: Dont like this... Now everyone knows my A8 isnt really a D9
That was easy to tell before :aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
if that is your "advantage" you got other things you need to work on.
a little timidity the 190 icon can cause IS an advantage in a slow battlewagon like the A8. Mark my words, this WILL change the choice of planes used in this game. I used to Fly G6's, no more... it will be G10s, I will now probably be in a Dora most of the time. Many months ago I flew the Hurri1 a lot, I surely wouldnt pull that stunt now!! This 'brainy' idea will push everyone to later war planes
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
This 'brainy' idea will push everyone to later war planes
You might be right there
:(
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before making my comback to the Main iv been flying the P40B offline and H2H alot intending to fly it in the main some thats what i did one time with the P40E came back flew it for awhile
this new icon thing will make it harder but il think il still give the P40B a go for awhile
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The 109F icon is shown from 6k on!
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I don't mind getting type info at close range. But as a little give-in I would have loved to seen rook/bish/knit icon only above 3-4k or so!
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I don't think there should be Icons at all. while u r at it eliminate no friendly collisions and killshooter too.
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I love it. Makes fighting 109s and 190s soooo much easier. :aok
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I love it. Makes fighting 109s and 190s soooo much easier. :aok
-- Todd/Leviathn
I concur. I roll a Tony and slaughtered La7's and 109's like they were Dodo's.
Karaya
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I'm not a fan. It was nice being able to put a Spit V in the default skin of a Spit IX. Thanks HT for dumbing the game down again.
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Did anyone really, REALLY fly that much differently against a Spit IX than against a Spit V? I know I never did.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I didnt fly any different against a spit v or 9
As far as the icon thing you cant get the detailed info till your aT 1000Yrds so not that big a deal imho. i kinda like it.
And like someone said earlier if the icon thingy was your advantage...you really should work on other aspects of your game cause that really wasnt an advantage except against noobs.
And who needs a advantage against them?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Did anyone really, REALLY fly that much differently against a Spit IX than against a Spit V? I know I never did.
-- Todd/Leviathn
nope not a single bit .. packed away pelts just like i ussually do .
one thing is by the time i payed attention to the exact icon thingy i had already set them up and was commited.. so it didnt really matter what model they were flying.
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Originally posted by tikky
The element of surprise is not there anymore... gives too much information
for example...
flying 109F makes them think you're the G-10... not anymore
I woldnt count on that. most ppl fly the G-10 alot fdifferently than the 109F
as for your element of suprise, unless your creeping up on an enemy plane from the low 6 oclok OR they have really bad SA you dont have the element of suprise like say hinding a GV behind some bushes and shooting a panzer as it drives by.
Maybe you could hide in the cloads and pounce when they dont see ya:D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Did anyone really, REALLY fly that much differently against a Spit IX than against a Spit V? I know I never did.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I HO both of them everytime. I HO 109Gs, Fs, Es, Qs, Ps the same way too.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Did anyone really, REALLY fly that much differently against a Spit IX than against a Spit V? I know I never did.
-- Todd/Leviathn
They will now, that's kinda the point of the thread...
If a horde spots 2 F4Fs and one gets ID'd as an FM2 and the other as an F4F (as if any one would be able to tell the two apart while in rl combat) who will the crowd go after?
If they see a Spit1 and a Spit5 they we go right after the Spit1.
This game is for the most about the path of least resistance. Now that path is marked with road signs directing folks right where to go.
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Originally posted by Wotan
They will now, that's kinda the point of the thread...
My point was specific to the distinction between Spit Vs and Spit IXs. People won't fight them differently because you don't really fight them differently anyway. I also can't think of any hierarchy of killing between these two planes. Toss a coin and kill the closest one.
The way I see it, this change helps perked rides and hurts non-perked rides. At least HTC balanced more specific icons with range. If you're going to do something like this, that at least seems like a fair compromise.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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A Spit IX at 2k is a different fight then a Spit V at 2k. So is a Spit V at 15k different then a IX at 15k. There are noticeable performance differences that become evident once the fight is joined.
These same types of differences can be seen in other plane types like the 109 variants for example.
Folks who have flown for a while can pick out these differences without an icon. Once the fight is on then most folks will fly the same way, the way they are most comfortable with. What the icons do is allow them to pick the exact plane they wish to fight and avoid the ones that might be a bit tougher. 'Spit V nope, FM2 nope, ok here it is sucker in a P-40B...'
HT hasn't said that the new icons were in response to make perk icons fair. In fact previously he has said he made the perk icons that way so they would stand out and so they would be 'ganged'. I can quote his old post on that if there's doubt.
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you will see even less.
While you may go after any enemy that's closest the majority of players in AH are not Levi. As I said the 'horde' follows the path of least resistance. That's why you see the hordes in the first place.
But as long as the majority are having fun who cares...
Personally, I thought the original beta AH2 icons were perfect...
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Originally posted by Wotan A Spit IX at 2k is a different fight then a Spit V at 2k. So is a Spit V at 15k different then a IX at 15k. There are noticeable performance differences that become evident once the fight is joined.
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If a Spit V or a Spit IX is turning, the chances are pretty good that you're going to deal with it in pretty much the same way. If it's BnZing, you'll probably deal with either one the same way too. Even if one is better than the other at this or that depending on altitude, the differences aren't so extreme as to throw the fight. We're not talking the difference between a 109E and a 109G10 here. Now, if that Spit turns out to be a Spit XIV, all bets are off.
I'd wager that an overwhelming majority of players won't care if it's a Spit IX or Spit V, and they'll fight it the same way regardless. On the other hand, a Spit I or Spit XIV will certainly receive special attention.
HT hasn't said that the new icons were in response to make perk icons fair.
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I didn't say that he did. But the new system does protect perk rides. Their true colors remain hidden until 800 yards now rather than 6000 yards. Regardless of what he once wrote, this system now helps perk rides more than before.
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you see even less.
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I don't know if you'll see them even less, but it will certainly impact them negatively.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think you guys are both right. In the past, there really wasn't a good way to tell what class each spit was, and the only time it would really matter at all would be in a spit vs spit matchup. All you had to do was assume the best characteristics of the plane (speed and hi-alt performance of the IX, turning ability of the V) and fly against those and you could handle the spit. Now that you can tell which model it is, it will have an effect on how you fight each model. Down low will not really matter, but as Wotan mentioned, the higher the engagement the more it matters if it is a V or IX. Who knows, maybe if they see you in your V at 15k Levi they won't run because they think your plane sucks up there, and you'll whack em quicker this way. :D
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If you haven't decided on a basic game plan before you get inside of 1k on a particular plane then you might wanna rethink your game play. If I see a 190 or 109 I will give them the respect they deserve. I'll immediately assume the worst case scenario. They have may have more fire power, they may be able to outturn me, and they may have better energy capabilities. It's not until the first pass that I'll determine what exactly they may or may not be capable of as a plane and as a pilot. So basically my attacks will always be the same.
People already picked out the easier of the fights without this new icon system. Using an example like whether your going to attack a Spit V vs FM2 vs P-40B makes no difference. Everyone chooses their fights differently whether it be based on a general plane (Spit, 109, 190, or F4U), altitude advantage, energy advantage, or biggest threat in the area based on all of the above. You wouldn't attack the Spit V first if you knew a 109 or 190 of any variant was in the area. Simply because you would know that if you get tied up with the Spit V your setting yourself up for failure unless you can get the kill quick which isn't a guarantee.
The rules of engagement don't change much unless you fly wrecklessly in the first place. You should always respect the plane and the pilot your flying against. Just because they are in a early war or late war plane doesn't mean you'll win the fight. It takes the pilot and the aircraft to win a fight not just the aircraft. There is no such thing as an uber aircraft that will win every engagement for you. The pilot behind the aircraft is what makes a difference and with as many people as we play against you'll never know the outcome based purely on early war or late war rides.
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pull out your best films and take a look now with the new icons ... i dont really see how its gonna make me pick out the weaker model ... in a multi bogie furball you just dont have the time to say "Oh man theres a spit 1 .... i gotta go kill it " your gonna be more worried about the p-38 thats gonna bounce all over ya .. or the zero that has more then 1/2 a turn on ya and you have to turn into its guns to avoid the other 2 planes.
as for helping the perk rides ... naw they will be flying 100-150 mph faster normally anyway and wont have but a split sec in that range anyhow ..
now in a disadvantaged fight .. it might help alittle ... but most guys are still gonna go after the most dangerous plane in the bunch 1st anyway ... (if ya go after the easy p40b /spit 1 then your just not experienced and or know anybetter..)
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lol thanks for the flying advice, where would I be with out yas...
Every nub with a keyboard thinks he knows something.
Those that fight know what I am talking about. Maybe Stang can explain it to you...
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Wotan so you must have some actual combat experience? Or are you just another "nub" that has spent more time with a keyboard? Seems your more worried about the little things than fighting if you asked me. So who is it again that your saying actually fights? Must be the "nub" who isn't crying about the new icon system and how much it will affect her/his game play (ie hoping to hide behind an icon to lure people in instead of just beating them outright).
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Anyone that can't tell a D series and an a series 190 on appearence alone, is probably someone you don't have to worry about losing a fight to.
Here's a little secret that i used to identify planes before the new icon system. For example, my sound for the F4U-D is different than the sound for the F4U-C. I could always tell shortly after the merge.
I doubt that anyone is going to trade in their Spit5s for 9s and 14s. And as for the rest being "pushed to late war planes", aren't most in them now anyway?(La7, P-51D, Dora, F6F yada yada)
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So far I kinda like the new icons. I cant say that it has changed my gameplay in any significant way. I generally fly the quad hispano Hurri so people have to want to fight me, or I have to be sneaky ;)
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Did anyone really, REALLY fly that much differently against a Spit IX than against a Spit V? I know I never did.
actually, i will now. i wouldnt drop flaps and turn with a spit5 in a 38, but i will with a spit9. now i can tell if im gonna drop flaps or not, changes how i fight.
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Originally posted by JB42
Anyone that can't tell a D series and an a series 190 on appearence alone, is probably someone you don't have to worry about losing a fight to.
Here's a little secret that i used to identify planes before the new icon system. For example, my sound for the F4U-D is different than the sound for the F4U-C. I could always tell shortly after the merge.
I doubt that anyone is going to trade in their Spit5s for 9s and 14s. And as for the rest being "pushed to late war planes", aren't most in them now anyway?(La7, P-51D, Dora, F6F yada yada)
That's exactly right, if you listen carefully engine sounds are distinguishably different.
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Cobra you've got some good points but you never last more than a few posts before typing about the other guy's crying and whining tendencies. It tells more about your perception than the other guy.
Why don't you try and really understand and counter-argue Wotan's point?
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I checked it, and found it very good addition. The point that people will horde early war planes hardly works, for enemy need to get close to see the icon first. In the furball when it is many targets it is a problem, because while you will check icons you can be a target yourself, and in (lets say) 2 vs 2 I would rather kill late war plane first because it is a bigger threat.
Doubt it will change my flying strongly, but it is something what people asked for ages: end the "perkmagnets syndrom", make icon system more logic.
May be ranges can be changed a bit etc., but generally idea is very productive.
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I like the new icon system. I think in the balance it's an improvement. Those that dislike it have their points, yet I think the positive outweighs the negative.
Quote by JB42:
Anyone that can't tell a D series and an a series 190 on appearence alone, is probably someone you don't have to worry about losing a fight to.
JB42, when I fought you Friday night I couldn't tell what kind of FW you were flying by the sound and don't remember what your icon said up close. Actually, I spend what little processing power my brain has during a fight on tactics, anticipation, SA, and riding the edge in my own plane. Ya, sometimes I notice the little things, but not usually. If you remember, we still had a very good fight. Now this is just my take and I may be in the minority.
BTW, all taunting aside, you JBs were tons of fun in those fights we had last night:aok looking forward to doing it again. I'll be calling you guys out when next I'm in the arena.
Magoo
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Originally posted by storch
That's exactly right, if you listen carefully engine sounds are distinguishably different.
Is this why in all the WWII movies and pictures.... the pilots are leaning out of their cockpits... trying to hear the other guy's engine?
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Much hand wringing and nashing of teeth .. I LOVE IT !!!
OMFG .. this new icon system is going to cause me to DIE !!!!!!!
I don't give a rats *** what plane your in ... you wanna dance then were gonna dance.
I doubt very strongly, in the past, that most tried to ident their quarry within D400 and then decide to run or play.
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Actually, I spend what little processing power my brain has during a fight on tactics, anticipation, SA, and riding the edge in my own plane. Ya, sometimes I notice the little things, but not usually.
So very true ... I'll bet that 99.99% of the populatuion fall into this descrition of what transpires during a fight. This change just gives those who like to piss and moan about change more fuel for their fire.
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Originally posted by 4510
Is this why in all the WWII movies and pictures.... the pilots are leaning out of their cockpits... trying to hear the other guy's engine?
maybe they are all looking to see if you are around in your mean,evil and nasty 110. Yup, I'm sure of it. it's your fault and they all hate you. :D Especially Errol Flynn, he hates you the most cuz you stole his 12 yr old GF.
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I like the new icon, but i noticed a Typhoon closing fast in my 6 last evening, that changed in Tempest , that was bad surprise,
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I think the new icon system is ok.
They could even go futher, so that from 2.0k to 6.0k there is NO info on what kind of plane you are dealing with. Just a red icon.
It would be fun with an arena where there were no icons for the enemy.
There should always be icons for friendly planes, to compensate the lack off communication / HQ / command.
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it just tells you if it is worth it to chase that particular luftwussie plane or let it go.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by Wotan
Those that fight know what I am talking about. Maybe Stang can explain it to you...
?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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One things for sure, your gonna see people flying the perk planes more.
Magoo
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
a little timidity the 190 icon can cause IS an advantage in a slow battlewagon like the A8. Mark my words, this WILL change the choice of planes used in this game. I used to Fly G6's, no more... it will be G10s, I will now probably be in a Dora most of the time. Many months ago I flew the Hurri1 a lot, I surely wouldnt pull that stunt now!! This 'brainy' idea will push everyone to later war planes
I fail to see how this will happen... I thought the majority was already in late war planes.
If anyone feels forced to fly a late war plane, then they're not exactly thinking this through and showing their confidence right there. It can pose some new challenges, but this isn't string theory or quantum mechanics.
\
Like someone already mentioned in this thread or another:
-AH1 - no skins - Ability to "disguise" yourself as a G10 when actually in a F4 due to the similar paintschemes.
-AH2 - skins - You have to discern by plane performance, or memorize the skins.
-AH2 present - Tags - Yeah, a little easier. But again I think the aim was to throw out some ambiguity at long ranges.
This won't change a thing for me. If I'm in a P40, I'm in a P40, I haven't lost any huge advantage. Hell, advantage and P40 do not belong in the same sentence. It's just a challenge that I enjoy. Personally I'd like "families" or more generic groups at long range like Pongo suggested. "Macchi, 109, Corsair, etc"
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Originally posted by Spongebob
One things for sure, your gonna see people flying the perk planes more.
Magoo
This topic was brought up a while back, and I think the consensus was that they wanted the icons to change for perk planes only.. I think this would be a little less annoying and would be helpful to those of us that like to fly perk planes like the Tempest or Spit14, or F4U4.. The changing Icons for EVERY plane is unnecessary in my opinion..
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sounds to me like the only people who find it to be a bad thing are those who are ashamed of the planes they fly or want every tiny little unfair advantage they can get.
lazs
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Originally posted by Stone
I think the new icon system is ok.
They could even go futher, so that from 2.0k to 6.0k there is NO info on what kind of plane you are dealing with. Just a red icon.
It would be fun with an arena where there were no icons for the enemy.
There should always be icons for friendly planes, to compensate the lack off communication / HQ / command.
If only this came to pass!!! And make it icons are from 4k out only for all planes!!
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Anyone seen a real difference yet? I disabled my skins well before they were removed ( i was having some vid card-texture issues), and was getting a bit better at identifying subtypes. However, by the time I can say definitively what the subtype is, its too late to back out- Hurricane ain't goin' nowhere in a hurry. That part has not changed for me with the new icon.
In a furball, if you have plenty of time to icon shop and pick your targets, you've got too many friendlies around- go home.
For the 109s, its easy- the 109 that easily turned inside you is the E, the 1 that just rocketed past you and augered is a G, the 1 that did a bit of each is the F. :D
I make no claims to being a great pilot in here, but I will continue to fly what I've always flown, and so will most other folks.
For those of you who didn't read Slap's sig line, here's humble's take on the matter:
Those of you who are "plane dependent" will always worry about what the other guy is in...the rest of us just worry about WHO the other guy is.
Anyhow, those are my thoughts.
cheers,
hub
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Why not go one step further? Except for bombers/formations, who can really tell what plane type it is anyways? Let the icon just be red country icon or --- until its 3k away adding the plane type for the initial contact, then add the subtype when within 1000 yards. After initial contact the Icon would remain plane type to 6k. Icons have way too much distance already anyways.
The CT already does this for icon range at 3k.
Another option is not unlike the icon settings in WW2OL. The Icon gradually faded in as the plane became closer.
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Originally posted by Black Sheep
The CT already does this for icon range at 3k.
Ant the CT blows chunks the size of basketballs IMHO. :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
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-- Todd/Leviathn
I was replying to the two that felt obligated to share their 'skills' and knowledge about 'how to fight'. I wasn't replying to you.
I have flown with Stang early on in past events. He has seen how I fly and I have seen him. IIRC he was with us in 109Es when our 10 guys had 60 of the 68 axis kills in a frame with like only 2 losses.
The non-sense as stated by the 412th fella has no bearing on the points I made previously.
If he's in the same squad as his name sake I have met them plenty of times over the years and the only one that was really worth a crap was Xquat (or whatever his nik was).
As an example of why I know this I will offer a couple of past run is with them.
I remember one event where Urchin, Leitwolf and I were at 3k in A-5s and their mustangs came in high (beyond 6k icon range) and circled around for 20 minutes before trying to implement their 'master planning'. We shot them all down with out a loss.
Or another time when Scot and I and a few others met their P-51s while in G-6s. Again we shot them all down. I remember tango running on the deck stick stirring like crazy to get away.
So when folks like that try sell me on 'how to do it' it's to good to let it go. I am not saying this as if I am great, I got shot down plenty from new guys to old pro's, but in the interest of 'keeping it real' not every one who can type a sentence should be considered a decent source of information.
My opinion about the icon change is that it may impact the early aircraft. I don't need a 'lesson' on 'planning'. If it has no impact on some folks then, so what? That has nothing to do with my replies.
If the game is just as fun as it always was then great...
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Wotan - You are just a tool. You're animosity towards the 412th or anyone else on this thread/board is pretty short-sighted. But please continue to bash in areas you have absolutely no knowledge...Yet again, you show your true colors. :rolleyes:
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Didn't we already cover this?
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I have absolutely nothing to contriubte to this thread so am just gonna say.
Oh... Oh.. Oh.. Oh... Hammah time!
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Well , I don't care how icons works , as long as it is consistent for everyone - ie all planes , which it is now , and it wasn't before.
The only people I can see as being negaitively effected would be 109 pilots as the variants had great diversity in performance.
The 190's all basically fly the same way anyway - so there's not much impact there.
At least it will be nice to fly a -4 now without the silly icon.
So it's level playing field now
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Originally posted by lazs2
sounds to me like the only people who find it to be a bad thing are those who are ashamed of the planes they fly or want every tiny little unfair advantage they can get.
lazs
As usual, Lazs is exactly correct.
It's all about losing the advantage of the other guy not knowing what you are flying until he commits to fight.
My regards,
Widewing
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The only planes this really effects are the 109s. You'll see the G2/G6/F4 dissapear, the G10 will pick up most of their kills. One of the only reasons to fly the earlier planes was to "trick" people into turning with you (well, trick planes like runstangs, P47s, etc).
The spit 5 and 9 are identical with nearly identical performance anyway, so I don't see how it hurts or helps either one there.
The really early war planes don't need a special "gangbang" tag... generally people will go after whatever the easiest kill is. Since the early-war planes are slower and typically lower than the other planes, they get gangbanged anyway, the tag isn't going to make any difference.
Nice for the Spit 14 and F4U4 though, the 152 didn't get the "190" treatment from what I understand. Not that it would matter.. about the only difference is people might mistake it for the generally superior D9.
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I think that was the wrond decision Instead they should have done the opposite and made all icons generic airframes. so perks are hidden .. like 152 as 190 spitIV as spit ect..
With custom skins after a month of flying its easy to associate each skin with the proper model.
time will tell.
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Originally posted by Glasses
I have absolutely nothing to contriubte to this thread so am just gonna say.
Oh... Oh.. Oh.. Oh... Hammah time!
I totaly agree and would like to add.......
ta da da dum da dum Can`t touch this.
Icons-Smicons. Who gives a rat`s arse.
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Should be an interesting change, though defensively it won't effect me much...
I either fly a black Bf-110, a green P-38 that turns too damned good, or a Hurri that sounds like it's shooting anti-aircraft guns...
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Moot unfortunately I'm just a "nub" with nothing to add here as stated by Wotan the great.
lol thanks for the flying advice, where would I be with out yas...
Every nub with a keyboard thinks he knows something.
Those that fight know what I am talking about. Maybe Stang can explain it to you...
I have understood Wotans points but they mean very little since I'm just a "nub" remember. I'm just an ignorant "nub" that knows little to nothing. I have nothing better to give to this discussion because this community is no different than the day I joined it. The so called "vets" are the only ones with any kind of say as to how things really are and how things should be done. The "nubs" are just that, "nubs". The only thing that matters here is the vets like Stang who are the gods of the sky which Wotan so graciously informed us about. Please tell me who was it that didn't understand or try to counter the subject at hand?
I guess it must have been me considering unlike some I don't underestimate the aircraft and pilots I fly against regardless of the icon system. I also don't use completely lopsided arguements stating the difference between at Spit 1, Hurri 1 or Emil against the late war planes. If you choose to fly such an aircraft in an enviroment that has planes with twice the capabilities you should know what your getting into from the start regardless of the icon system. If you are also such an "ace" that some "nub" and his comments mean nothing then you shouldnt' have to hide behind the icon in the first place. You should be able to hold your own regardless and know the consequences of taking up such an aircraft. Again though I'm an ignorant "nub". I'd much rather be a "nub" than arrogant and result to trying to bring a squadron into this and trying to belittle folks in the community. I forgot though it is the community way isn't it?
Funny how Wotan speaks of times past and has no clue as to how I fly or my abilities but yet he's the all knowing god of Aces High. He sounds alot like a few other "vets" I know that think they walk on water.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sounds to me like the only people who find it to be a bad thing are those who are ashamed of the planes they fly or want every tiny little unfair advantage they can get.
lazs
Heck, my planes are just glad there is no pilot icon....they are ashamed I'm flyin' them. :D
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Moot unfortunately I'm just a "nub" with nothing to add here as stated by Wotan the great.
I have understood Wotans points but they mean very little since I'm just a "nub" remember. I'm just an ignorant "nub" that knows little to nothing. I have nothing better to give to this discussion because this community is no different than the day I joined it. The so called "vets" are the only ones with any kind of say as to how things really are and how things should be done. The "nubs" are just that, "nubs". The only thing that matters here is the vets like Stang who are the gods of the sky which Wotan so graciously informed us about. Please tell me who was it that didn't understand or try to counter the subject at hand?
I guess it must have been me considering unlike some I don't underestimate the aircraft and pilots I fly against regardless of the icon system. I also don't use completely lopsided arguements stating the difference between at Spit 1, Hurri 1 or Emil against the late war planes. If you choose to fly such an aircraft in an enviroment that has planes with twice the capabilities you should know what your getting into from the start regardless of the icon system. If you are also such an "ace" that some "nub" and his comments mean nothing then you shouldnt' have to hide behind the icon in the first place. You should be able to hold your own regardless and know the consequences of taking up such an aircraft. Again though I'm an ignorant "nub". I'd much rather be a "nub" than arrogant and result to trying to bring a squadron into this and trying to belittle folks in the community. I forgot though it is the community way isn't it?
Funny how Wotan speaks of times past and has no clue as to how I fly or my abilities but yet he's the all knowing god of Aces High. He sounds alot like a few other "vets" I know that think they walk on water.
Aint that cute? :D
Holy PMS Batman. roflmao
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I'll take a stance just as Wotan has in regards to "vets" versus "nubs" and player bashing.
Jackal1 since your a vet please tell what's your excuse? In case your wondering what I'm talking about is your abilities or lack there of since May 2002 to present. Since you decided to pop off I guess will bring into the discussion since your a "vet" with intimate knowledge of the game. Your lack of abilities must have been because of what the invention of the aeroplane. Please speak up since you must obviously know it all just like the rest of the vets.
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Yea, but I aint tellin you. Your a nub. lmao
Take 2 Midol and call me in the morning.
I told ya once before. That stuff will make ya a Chatty Kathy and make ya forget what ya said. :D
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I have not read the rest of thread (on purpose). But this alone is the best upgrade to AH in a long time. Reason? Quite frankly my dear you can fly some perk planes and not be targeted at AEGIS range.
We have always known too much about cons around us, especially at stupid ranges (remeber 5,280 feet is a mile- our icons are in yards). I applaud this as a step toward realism. In short I say, "Yes!"
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Pretty much what a figured. A "vet" that won't put up or shutup. Quick to open his trap but is probably the last person to take any kind of advice from when it comes to flying. It's probably because in almost 3 years he's lucky to be an average pilot at best. Funny how the "nub" as you guys call it grasped the concept of aerial combat yet your still struggling even after having more time playing. Guess some of the supposed "vets" aren't anything more than a target drone like the "nubs".
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I like the new icon system, but it won't change the way I fight all that much. As has been stated by others, it was fairly easy to tell differences in like aircraft before...
a. Hurricane I had no cannons on the wings
b. P-51B and D with different fusealage
c. 190A series and D series front end
etc...
It took a turn or two to tell a 109G6 from a G10, but the difference was discernable if the fight lasted that long.
Wotan just likes to talk about the 412th because he has some deep rooted dislike of P-51s. What ever the reason, it's fine with me. The 412th has a reputation in the AH community. Some people like us, and some people always cry about the way we choose to play the game. The thing I find the most humorous is that the ones that whine about us the most always like to add how they always shoot us all down....
posted by Wotan
I remember one event where Urchin, Leitwolf and I were at 3k in A-5s and their mustangs came in high (beyond 6k icon range) and circled around for 20 minutes before trying to implement their 'master planning'. We shot them all down with out a loss.
Or another time when Scot and I and a few others met their P-51s while in G-6s. Again we shot them all down. I remember tango running on the deck stick stirring like crazy to get away
Please oh great and powerful Wotan, the next time you are about to shoot down a 412th Mustang, I beg of you show mercy and let us flee to safety :rolleyes:
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What difference does plane type matter if you are on their six.
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The 412th has a reputation in the AH community. Some people like us, and some people always cry about the way we choose to play the game.
Yup, and part of that rep is 'timidity' (whether you think you deserve it or not). Fly and have fun anyway you want but when one of yours comes out with a 'how to manual' he will get mocked and laughed at.
My problem isn't with the P-51 it's the type of folks that are attracted to that plane (speaking within the 'game' context of course). You can certainly fly it anyway you want but as I said in your 'please define timid thread' expect people to call it like they see it.
I don't start these threads, I don't take them off topic. This thread is about icons, my replies were on topic and directed initially toward something Levi said. Instead of dealing with the topic of this thread your squad mate got confused and thought I cared about how he 'plans his attacks'.
Your squad mate has no idea what 'fighting' is in the context of my reply about icons. You see in those big fur balls everyone knows what every one is flying. At times a brave young lad could slip into the fur ball in a Spit 1 or Hurri 1 or even an Emil or F4F etc. If you want to call it 'hiding' that's up to you but in fur balls any plane can hide.
In the visual conditions in the main (meaning SA because icons at a glance can give away much more info then pilots would have in real life) a highly maneuvering single aircraft can get into a fur ball and in fact become 'hidden' while right out in the open.
With all that goes on in that mess a 'Spit' icon here or '109' (or P-40, F4F etc..) icon there won't instantly grab the attention of most players. They are simply reacting to the closest threat or the closest enemy.
Since aircraft like these early planes are rare already, their icon will be (or maybe) a magnet to the others in the frey.
'Spit 1, wow that's rare lets get it etc...'
I don't expect you or squad mates to understand a word of what I am saying because that's not your flying and fighting 'style'. No one asked your squad mate 'how he does it' and I don't anyone really cares.
Before you claim something like 'flying like that is not historical' or 'fighting in an environment of mixed aircraft is not historical' well it may not be for Western Europe but on the Ostfront (especially early) and in the Med it sure was 'historical'.
Hans-Joachim Marseille's self-training program
Vision - Marseille decided to adapt his eyes to the powerful desert sun and the dry desert atmosphere and to adapt his body to the desert's conditions. He stopped wearing sun glasses, deliberately exposed his eyes to the desert sun, and shifted from alcohol to milk (cant you just see him with that milk ring around his mouth.."Drink Milk, it does a body good"). He also noticed that in the intensely lit dry desert atmosphere, aircraft can be detected from greater distances than over Europe and deduced that hiding and surprise are less practical over the desert than in the cloudy sky over europe.
G-Force - Marseille worked endlessly to strengthen his abdominal and leg muscles in order to enhance his ability to sustain higher G-Force and for longer durations during dogfights better than the average fighter pilot. G-Force is the enormous centrifugal force experienced when a fighter aircraft makes sharp turns during dogfight. The modern G-suit that helps pilots sustain it was not yet invented in world war 2.
Aerobatics - Marseille used every opportunity to perform breathtaking aerobatics. In addition to free entertainment to his friends on the ground, this also gave him an outstanding control and confidence in extremely maneuvering his Messerschmitt 109 aircraft.
Marksmanship - Marseille spent his unused ammunition practicing firing at ground objects and trained a lot not just in plain strafing but also in high deflection shooting while in a sharp turn, which is much harder.
Intelligence - he began to read every possible intelligence information he could find in order to maximize his knowledge and understanding of the enemy.
Tactics - That's where Marseille marked himself as a great innovator of air warfare, and he kept improving. He claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert, large formations are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances. He also claimed that fighting alone eliminates the high risk of firing at or colliding with a wingman in such extreme maneuvering. Marseille said that in such conditions, there's a lower chance and too little time for the usual chase attack method, and preferred to use high angle deflection firing from short range while making a sharp turn. In doing so, he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose. He calculated that when firing a short burst at this position, his gun rounds will hit the target's engine and cockpit, and he trained in this unorthodox aiming method on his friends (without firing) many times and perfected his ability to use it. He deduced that over the desert, a fighter pilot can become "invisible" only by extreme maneuvers at close range, and that the intensity of the maneuvering was more important than the speed of flying.
In Kurland for example JG54 had mix variety of 190s, from few early A-3s to late A-9s. They met Soviet formations with a variety of different fighters flying together.
Get Norbert Hannig's book (IIRC off-hand). He describes fights where confusion is the rule. Folks crying out over vox so that communication becomes useless. Enemies show up unseen, squad mates fighting each other for kills etc...
Back on topic My opinion about these new icons is they may have an impact on early planes. Any one can go back and search the old posts about perk plane icons where numerous folks complained about being hunted whenever folks noticed their icons. The same thing may prove true for these early planes. The difference now is those perk planes had the performance so that the ganging actually made it easy to get kills.
For the guy who likes the Spit 1 he may not bother with it again. That was my point, but someone wanted to make this thread about 'attack planning' and other such non-sense...
Anyway 6 am here, I am going to bed...
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Originally posted by Wotan
Yup, and part of that rep is 'timidity' (whether you think you deserve it or not). Fly and have fun anyway you want but when one of yours comes out with a 'how to manual' he will get mocked and laughed at.
My problem isn't with the P-51 it's the type of folks that are attracted to that plane (speaking within the 'game' context of course). You can certainly fly it anyway you want but as I said in your 'please define timid thread' expect people to call it like they see it.
I don't start these threads, I don't take them off topic. This thread is about icons, my replies were on topic and directed initially toward something Levi said. Instead of dealing with the topic of this thread your squad mate got confused and thought I cared about how he 'plans his attacks'.
Your squad mate has no idea what 'fighting' is in the context of my reply about icons. You see in those big fur balls everyone knows what every one is flying. At times a brave young lad could slip into the fur ball in a Spit 1 or Hurri 1 or even an Emil or F4F etc. If you want to call it 'hiding' that's up to you but in fur balls any plane can hide.
In the visual conditions in the main (meaning SA because icons at a glance can give away much more info then pilots would have in real life) a highly maneuvering single aircraft can get into a fur ball and in fact become 'hidden' while right out in the open.
With all that goes on in that mess a 'Spit' icon here or '109' (or P-40, F4F etc..) icon there won't instantly grab the attention of most players. They are simply reacting to the closest threat or the closest enemy.
Since aircraft like these early planes are rare already, their icon will be (or maybe) a magnet to the others in the frey.
'Spit 1, wow that's rare lets get it etc...'
I don't expect you or squad mates to understand a word of what I am saying because that's not your flying and fighting 'style'. No one asked your squad mate 'how he does it' and I don't anyone really cares.
Before you claim something like 'flying like that is not historical' or 'fighting in an environment of mixed aircraft is not historical' well it may not be for Western Europe but on the Ostfront (especially early) and in the Med it sure was 'historical'.
In Kurland for example JG54 had mix variety of 190s, from few early A-3s to late A-9s. They met Soviet formations with a variety of different fighters flying together.
Get Norbert Hannig's book (IIRC off-hand). He describes fights where confusion is the rule. Folks crying out over vox so that communication becomes useless. Enemies show up unseen, squad mates fighting each other for kills etc...
Back on topic My opinion about these new icons is they may have an impact on early planes. Any one can go back and search the old posts about perk plane icons where numerous folks complained about being hunted whenever folks noticed their icons. The same thing may prove true for these early planes. The difference now is those perk planes had the performance so that the ganging actually made it easy to get kills.
For the guy who likes the Spit 1 he may not bother with it again. That was my point, but someone wanted to make this thread about 'attack planning' and other such non-sense...
Anyway 6 am here, I am going to bed...
Aren't you the guy always talking about IL2 and how good it is , and hasn't played AH for a couple of years ?
I am really curious - why do you actually care if the icon system has changed ?
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Aren't you the guy always talking about IL2 and how good it is , and hasn't played AH for a couple of years ?
I am really curious - why do you actually care if the icon system has changed ?
Ooooooh!
Low blow, Redd. Keep it above the belt.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Funny how the "nub" as you guys call it grasped the concept
:D I don`t know what you call that thing you are "grasping" , but it`s not called a concept around here.:rolleyes:
I see the Midol has not kicked in yet.
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Having the tempest show up as a typhoon is just plain wrong... They were 2 different aircraft.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Having the tempest show up as a typhoon is just plain wrong... They were 2 different aircraft.
Like the 109E4 and the 109G10.
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Originally posted by straffo
Like the 109E4 and the 109G10.
I think this new icon system needs to be canned
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It's a good idea. If you depend on plane choice for winning then you need to have some of your unfair advantage negated. Tempest should say temp tho.
lazs
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A typhoon would be pretty hard to tell from a tempest from 3 miles away.
Once you get up close it would be a little more distinguisable... say, I dunno, maybe a half mile or so?
Oh wait, that is the system they just implemented.
Anyway, the only planes this really affects are the *really* early war planes (like the Spit I and Hurri I), and the LW planes.
The rest (P-47D-11 vs P-47-D40 for instance) perform so similarly that plane X will have the same advantages over the D-11 that is does over the D-40.
I can see the Spit 5/ Spit 9 possibly being affected since someone in a Spit 9 isn't going to turn with someone in a Spit 5 as readily as he might have turned with a Spit 5 wearing the Spit 9's skin (pre-icon change), but that isn't going to be a huge great deal since one of them or the other will be busy dealing with 2-3 more bad guys to really concern himself with the nuances of Spit 9 vs Spit 5.
Wotan makes a perfectly valid point about grabbing a 109E and rolling into a fight with it... it isn't (well, wasn't) a bad choice. Firepower is decent, it turns a lot better than the other 109s, and you have an opportunity to get close. When whatever plane you finally get saddled up on looks back and sees "109" and turns (because 109s can't turn, everyone knows that), the E could slide in there for a kill. Now, when someone looks back and sees "109E", assuming they don't go "WTF is a 109E?" they'll just level out and leave.. pretty much any plane will dust a 109E. It combines none of the strengths of the other 109s (climb, acceleration), with subpar "strengths" that are done much more effectively with another choice of plane (turning).
To be quite honest though, less than 1/2 of 1% of the kills in the MA are made by the types of planes that will be affected negatively by this choice. So they basically already don't exist (in the context of the MA), so there is no downside to this move.
Actually just played with the numbers... out of 324,496 kills made by fighters in tour 60, 1,933 kills were from what I would term "early war" planes (Spit I, Hurri I, 109E, 110C, A6m2, F4F4). Came out to .6%, or just a bit more than 1/2 of 1%.
For anyone who is interested, the total for the LW planes that I think will be negatively affected by the move (109F-G6, 190A) came to 26,413 kills, or ~8.1%
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Wotan love the "how to manual" statement. Funny thing is I'll come into a fight with a B or D Pony and regardless of whether some nit wit like yourself is hoping to hide behind an icon and will engage you anyway. So tell me who's timid the one? The one trying to hopefully hide behind an icon or the one who will engage you regardless of what your icon states in the first place and beat you at your own game?
I'm just curious but do your really have to quote Marseille or is it because your incapable of thinking tactically on your own? His experiences have little to do with how the arenas here are. There was a difference between life and death for him and his opponents. Here there is no such thing. The advanced tactical doctrines of even the highest aces since the invention of the fighter aircraft won't always work here. Real life combat and virtual combat don't share the same battle ground. There are some common things between them but in a place such as this they are few and far between. Since your the expert on combat tactics please show me how often such an incident that Marseilles talks about in your quote that occurs in the MA or any other arena for that matter.
Folks in early war birds should use the new icon system to their advantage. Fly with a wingman with a late war bird, sucker the con in and then turn the tables on them. Either way an early war bird isn't as defenseless as you try to make them out to be regardless of the icon system. It still depends on the pilot. A chitty pilot will always be a chitty pilot no matter what he/she flies in. A pilot who is mediocre will have their ups and downs in an early war bird and a pilot who is beyond mediocre will still win more than they lose in an early war bird. It seems your just making an excuse for you and others lack of ability to fight and win. Probably no different than whatever silly excuse you used to go run to IL2. I'am curious though why do you still frequent these boards?
And btw Dipstick it's funny you should say that considering I've flown against many of your squadmates and heard exactly the opposite. I've also flown with your squadmates and heard the opposite of what your agreeing to. So are you just another guy jumping on the band wagon or do you actually have something worth a watermelon to say? If I had to make a choice I'd say it's choice number 1.
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I can't speak for Wotan, but your argument of "well, bring a friend" seems kind of off-topic.
What I am saying is that the change to the icon system will hurt LW planes in particular (it also hurts the early war planes, but they are so rare as to be nonexistant anyway, so who cares), because before the change, you could take up a F4 or E4 and fly it around, and people would assume that you were in a G-10. This is nice because planes like a Spit 9 can't run from a G-10.. but they can (and will) run from an E-4. So you could basically sucker the slow planes into a turn fight if you wanted to. The fast ones would run anyway, but they'd run from a G-10 also so it is immaterial.
"How you (anyone) fly" has very little to do with it. The only people that'll really be effected by this change are people like me who used to enjoy taking an E4 or F4 and flying around looking for a fight. The (very few) folks that fly these planes in a nice, safe horde won't notice any difference, because it'll be hard for a con to pick them out for special treatment while he is dodging 4 or 5 other planes.
I really don't see any downside to it other than that, and since the effected communities are such small minorities I don't think it is a big deal.
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trying to figure out if i'm a "nub" or a "vet".........
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Urchin I said that specifically because some folks seem to think that just because someone knows your in an early war bird means your screwed. I'm giving them another option since it's obvious they are worried about holding their own alone in the aircraft they chose to fly. Maybe I should cry about the same thing when someone alerts people that I'm in an area or my squad is and a group comes hunting for Mustangs. Maybe I should tell HTC that I want it changed so people don't know who killed them till after I've landed because it's unfair that I don't get to hide my identity. I mean in reality that's what these guys are asking for except for the fact it's dealing with their aircrafts model instead of the person themselves. If I could hide my identity or squads identity it would be just as fair.
I've beaten many people in the P-40E and P-40B which were flying late war birds by myself. That was regardless if they tried to BnZ or TnB me. I wasn't hidding behind an aircrafts icon hoping I'd fool someone and I didn't need a wingman either. It seems because they have the option of more than just 2 variants for a particular airframe they want to try and use it to their advantage instead of just beating them outright. They want to try and deceive their enemy so they can gain perk points and/or get a big hurrah from their buddies when they land kills in an early war bird so it boosts their egos.
It seems that it's the same thing over and over again. People want to try and game the game as much as possible opposed to just play. If you choose to fly an early war bird then that is your choice. If you can't get kills in it now because you were relying on a bluff before then don't fly it. If you flew it because you wanted to sucker people in so you could rack up your perk points (which is most likely the case for some) then now you have to earn the kills instead of relying on your bluff. If you actually flew it in the past because it was more of a "challenge" then you should have no issues with the new icon system.
Simple fact is if the con wants to fight they are going to fight whether it be in the tnb or the bnz and whether or not your an early war or late war bird. You will still have folks who will also test the waters prior to engaging so a bluff won't always work.
Basically what it comes down to is some wish to prey on either new people in the game who don't know any better or people who aren't so new and fly wrecklessly on a constant basis. If you flew the early war bird because it was a challenge (which I doubt the ones complaining do it for that reason) then you wouldn't care if they knew what plane your in. You'd fight to better yourself in that plane regardless of how the con chooses to fight you. You would lose some and you'd win some even if you were at a disadvantage because of your plane. Nothing guarantees you that a con will choose to fight you or not fight you based on the plane your flying. It also doesn't guarantee that your early war plane will be priority number one on their target list either just because it's an early war plane.
Lute you might wanna ask Wotan about that. He's the expert on who's a nub and who's a vet. I'm sure he'd be glad to give you an answer. It seems if your a vet (time on station)you know it all and if you are a nub (lack of time on station) you don't know chit.
I say do it like Sunking suggested to an extent. Since it's such a disadvantage for another player to know the plane your in give no plane icon. Give them a rook, knight or bish icon with distance and nothing else. I'm sure though that would be going too far for some and would be yet unfair again. Then their bluffs wouldn't work because they don't even have a clue as to what they are fighting until they are almost totally committed and their bluffs could backfire on them. Lets get Marseilles opinion on this. Will the real Marseille please stand up.
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I see your point, I just don't agree with it :). The type of plane you (general) fly has a *huge* effect on what you can do. All planes (well, most planes) have strengths and weaknesses vis a vis one another.
The only *real* strength a plane like a 109E or 109F has against a Spitfire is the fact that the Spit pilot will assume it is a 109G and react accordingly. The Spit literally does everything better than a 109E or F. It accelerates better, climbs better (or in the case of the F, the same), turns better, and is roughly as fast, or faster.
So the only real hope a 109E/F pilot has vs a Spit is to get the Spit turning, but not turning as hard as it could. If the Spit thinks it is a G-10 behind him, he isn't going to turn as hard as he possibly could, which might let the 109E/F get a shot in.
But in general, you are right. For a lot of planes (example P40B vs E) the plane is so outclassed vs every common plane in the MA it really doesn't matter which version you fly. The icon still reads P40, which is about the same as reading "KILLMEPLZKTHXBYE", except much shorter.
The "bluff" only works for certain planes in certain situations against some other planes, it isn't a universal thing. The LW planes definately benefitted more than the other planes from the icon system we had in place before now.
The only real effect this is going to have is that for a relatively uncommon set of planes to coalesce into one plane (109s -> G-10, 190 -> D9) because the older varients really won't be worth flying anymore.
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In the 190A8 it wasn't about bluffing per se.
It is that it is a slower plane than the D9's Pony Ds and LA7's.
I liked the challenge of not flying a late war bird, and trying to do well in it. I personally believed that the A8 could get you about a 40 to 1 K/D in the old MA if you worked on it :) Now, I will never find out. Certainly the Dora is a 40+ K/D bird, but that is no big feat is such an uber plane.
Before they would think you were probably a D9, and would avoid flying you down. Now they know they can fly you down, and do.
So the option is either to be extremely timid, or to go to a newer faster plane set.
Urchin said; For anyone who is interested, the total for the LW planes that I think will be negatively affected by the move (109F-G6, 190A) came to 26,413 kills, or ~8.1%
So the result will be fewer people flying those models, and since we are only a 8% minority who cares?
What we will end up with is more Dora's, LA7's and Pony D's. The number of Spitties and NIKI's will probably not be effected much as most LW dirvers like the BNZ planes. So we end up with less diversity, and lack of diversity is always a big whine on the BBS's.
So we narrow the planeset, and the game becomes even more stratified.
Personally I am switching to a Dora for now, but I just may go to the LA7.
One more LALA, one less A8, just what this arena needs. I guess that's what most of the 92% seem to want.
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Well so far noone has complained too awful much about the icons since the change - It aint that big a deal it seems - well until they get within 1000 :)
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Everyone disagrees with someone else about someone elses opinion so I can respect that.
Saying that these planes are worthless now still relies on the person who your flying against to know what your capable of as a plane and a pilot. They can still over and under estimate your capabilities. It's still a judgement call that not a whole lot of the community would make the correct decision on in the first place even if they knew the differences of variant of a particular airframe. That only leaves a select group of individuals that will know how to capitalize on these differences in the end.
I can think of alot of well known pilots that can turn a early war bird into a killing machine (Shane, Manetmp, XtrmeJ, Leviathn, AKAK, Yucca, JBs, SHawk, Stang, Wadke, Redd, Mars, Waffle, ect...). These folks can take an aircraft that should without a doubt not survive a fight against a particular bird and end up winning regularly even if the other bird fights smart and to it's strengths. I just don't really buy the whole because you know what it is now means you can't or won't be able to win. That is deteremined by both plane and pilot.
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The only *real* strength a plane like a 109E or 109F has against a Spitfire is the fact that the Spit pilot will assume it is a 109G and react accordingly. The Spit literally does everything better than a 109E or F. It accelerates better, climbs better (or in the case of the F, the same), turns better, and is roughly as fast, or faster.
So the only real hope a 109E/F pilot has vs a Spit is to get the Spit turning, but not turning as hard as it could. If the Spit thinks it is a G-10 behind him, he isn't going to turn as hard as he possibly could, which might let the 109E/F get a shot in.
I don't know .. I have been flying for over 3 years now, primarily a Spit V pilot (altho I have flown many planes successfully) and all I see is 109 ... I woundn't know or care what variant your flying. If your gonna fight with me, then all I care about is getting behind ya. In the right situation, I don't care what variant of 109 your in ... and you made a mistake ... you will die.
Bottom line ... I wouldn't know and E from an F or a G ... doesn't matter to me. If you want to fight ... then so be it ... the better man will fly away ... If I reverse you and you run ... so be that too ... you were still beat ... you just lived to tell people about it. I just look for the next target that WILL fight.
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Originally posted by WMLute
trying to figure out if i'm a "nub" or a "vet".........
Definately a "nub" Lute ... feel better ? :D
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I think we should get the option for icons to automatically turn off at ranges under 500yrds.
you know what you're up against by then through visual ident and memory of the icon.
i ignore icons a close range anyhow, it only becomes important for judging the E state and direction of planes far away, make no difference close up.
i hate icons, every AI sim i play i always have them off.
just my opinion.
bat
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Urchin I said that specifically because some folks seem to think that just because someone knows your in an early war bird means your screwed. I'm giving them another option since it's obvious they are worried about holding their own alone in the aircraft they chose to fly. Maybe I should cry about the same thing when someone alerts people that I'm in an area or my squad is and a group comes hunting for Mustangs. Maybe I should tell HTC that I want it changed so people don't know who killed them till after I've landed because it's unfair that I don't get to hide my identity. I mean in reality that's what these guys are asking for except for the fact it's dealing with their aircrafts model instead of the person themselves. If I could hide my identity or squads identity it would be just as fair.
I've beaten many people in the P-40E and P-40B which were flying late war birds by myself. That was regardless if they tried to BnZ or TnB me. I wasn't hidding behind an aircrafts icon hoping I'd fool someone and I didn't need a wingman either. It seems because they have the option of more than just 2 variants for a particular airframe they want to try and use it to their advantage instead of just beating them outright. They want to try and deceive their enemy so they can gain perk points and/or get a big hurrah from their buddies when they land kills in an early war bird so it boosts their egos.
It seems that it's the same thing over and over again. People want to try and game the game as much as possible opposed to just play. If you choose to fly an early war bird then that is your choice. If you can't get kills in it now because you were relying on a bluff before then don't fly it. If you flew it because you wanted to sucker people in so you could rack up your perk points (which is most likely the case for some) then now you have to earn the kills instead of relying on your bluff. If you actually flew it in the past because it was more of a "challenge" then you should have no issues with the new icon system.
Simple fact is if the con wants to fight they are going to fight whether it be in the tnb or the bnz and whether or not your an early war or late war bird. You will still have folks who will also test the waters prior to engaging so a bluff won't always work.
Basically what it comes down to is some wish to prey on either new people in the game who don't know any better or people who aren't so new and fly wrecklessly on a constant basis. If you flew the early war bird because it was a challenge (which I doubt the ones complaining do it for that reason) then you wouldn't care if they knew what plane your in. You'd fight to better yourself in that plane regardless of how the con chooses to fight you. You would lose some and you'd win some even if you were at a disadvantage because of your plane. Nothing guarantees you that a con will choose to fight you or not fight you based on the plane your flying. It also doesn't guarantee that your early war plane will be priority number one on their target list either just because it's an early war plane.
Lute you might wanna ask Wotan about that. He's the expert on who's a nub and who's a vet. I'm sure he'd be glad to give you an answer. It seems if your a vet (time on station)you know it all and if you are a nub (lack of time on station) you don't know chit.
I say do it like Sunking suggested to an extent. Since it's such a disadvantage for another player to know the plane your in give no plane icon. Give them a rook, knight or bish icon with distance and nothing else. I'm sure though that would be going too far for some and would be yet unfair again. Then their bluffs wouldn't work because they don't even have a clue as to what they are fighting until they are almost totally committed and their bluffs could backfire on them. Lets get Marseilles opinion on this. Will the real Marseille please stand up.
The P40-E is not an 'early aircraft' in the context of my point. It matches up very well with the 109F-4 (not early war either).
As I said by your replies you simply haven't got a clue and are just making things up as you go. Post your game nik so we can get an idea of 'how' and 'what' you fly.
Take a 109 E, it has neither the fuel range, nor the climb, nor the speed to do anything more then head to the fur.
The MGFF/M in AH have an effective range of around 300 yards (240 ideally). You only get 60 rounds per gun and they fire at the same time. So you want to get very close to ensure your shots count. The 7 mm are even worse. .303s (Spit 1, Hurri 1) are even worse. You wont get multiple passes because as soon as the person your attacking realizes you are in a Spit 1 or Emil and can fly it they will just run away.
So you end with limited combat time, limited effective kill range, and limited speed for closure even when diving. You get to the fight and some one looks back and sees '109E-4' and they laugh, go nose low, left spiral and then climb.
The same would happen to a Spit 1, Hurri 1, A6M2 (which has even guns; Type 99 MK1 then the 109 E) etc...
Its not hiding to get a kill, its using the confusion and uncertainty within context of that fight to your advantage given the limitations of the plane you are in. As I posted above this is 'historically accurate' and hardly 'gamey'. No one flies the 109 E-4 (or any of those other early planes I mentioned) as their plane of choice, they fly these planes when they want something different.
You throw out words like 'gamey' as if planes in real life had exact plane type icons. Look at the size and range and information provided by AH icons. Not even under the best conditions would pilots have that level of detail with just a glance like they do in AH.
We all acknowledge the limitations of monitors and computer hardware but even so the information provided by far exceeds what ever hardware limitations 'virtual pilots' face. No one has said make AH without icons but if you are going to make accusations of 'gameyness' then at least be honest. If anything exact icon type is what's 'gamey'. I think we all can acknowledge icons contribute to game play in a positive fashion. After all it would be no fun in main chasing around single pixel dots hoping to encounter a bad guy.
Since you use words like 'gamey' I think it should be pointed out, once again, that real life pilots in WW2 had no idea of the specific variant of aircraft type they were fighting. Not only did they encounter mixed variants of one type but mixed typed formations as well. This is evident is the mis-identifying of aircraft in pilot kill claims and at times when friendly aircraft attacked other friendly aircraft. I gave examples above.
You may try to sell folks some BS about what's 'gamey' or not but that has nothing to do with my point. You are just trying to rationalize your assumption that folks 'need' your advice.
You have no idea what I fly or how I fight. Maybe Urchin would tell you, after all we flew together for years.
Urchin,
I made my point clear. I agree that early war planes are rare (and I said as much several times above). My point is they may get even more rare, we will see.
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WOW .. the "Walls of Text" have made this thread totally ghey.
Can't see the forest thru the trees ... or the BS is so high it to dang hard to wade thru.
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no kidding I aint reading all that lol
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Awe Dipstick unlike a girly spit driver on the deck? I really didn't know there was a difference. Again funny considering it shows that you know me so well. Especially when on more than one occasion people identified me purely due to the fact there was a mustang on the deck turn fighting with Spits, N1Ks, KI61s, and last but not least zekes. I suppose this is another TnBers whine about BnZers and how we should play your game because you must obviously pay our HTC bills.
Please ask around to see how many folks have seen me consistantly turn fighting on the deck. Since your the all knowing ask Sekiji and the 367th who they were fighting and how we were fighting at A59. Better yet ask the JBs since they are part of the Knights who they were fighting and how they were fighting near A30.
Before I go though let me see if I'm as good at this game as you are. You wear a size 12 womans thong with frilly lace that was taken from your sisters house after a "family get together"? How far off am I?
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Wotan let me make it simple and straight forward so you can understand. You chose to fly those particular aircraft. Because you chose that particular aircraft is not our fault nor is it our fault that your incapable of surviving once your little secret is discovered. You'd rather play the slight of hand because your incapable of playing your hand straight forward due to not only the aircraft you chose but also because of your inability to fly it without having something else to help you along.
What would you have done had they not allowed different skins? Cried about how they gave up your identity because everyone knew your plane because of it's paint scheme? Again it's your choices in not only the airframe you fly but how you employ that airframe that has led you to the whimpering we are hearing now about how unjust it is to your poor early war plane and your little bluff that you try to use in order to get a kill. Maybe if you learned to stand up straight and face your enemy without hiding behind some kind of illusion this icon system wouldn't bother you so much. If your the better pilot as you claim to be and have so much experience then prove it with your ingame flying and shut up.
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If I were better at this game, I'd have an opinion on this and believe me, it would put everyone in their place.
:p
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Kind of what I figured Dipstick. What's wrong your all knowing don't want to back your claims of us only flying at 25k? Guess not considering it wouldn't fit with your point of view. You must hate being wrong all the time. Guess the only thing you have going for you is the ability to hide behind the real pilots of BK.
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As I figured keep hiding Dipstick. Avoid the questions because we all know you don't have the answer.
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Please prove your supposed claims that all the 412th does is fly at 25k. Please enlighten me considering I've fought many of your crew on the deck by my choosing and not theirs. Seems unlike yourself many of your squadmates actually know the difference and have complemented me after such engagements. Keep up the Shane act btw it does wonders for your squad.
Btw I also like the fact you have input nothing to this subject except for proving your a troll. The only thing you tried to come in here and do is insult someone which frankly you did a pretty chitty job of.
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That's amusing considering Redd had no clue as to who I was and neither did Leviathn. They are one of the few who's opinion really means anything on your squad in the first place.
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Funny how everyone spouts off on here anonymously. Quite amusing. Even funnier is that for people like Wotan and others, they do Exactly what they accuse others of...
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Originally posted by Wotan
Before you claim something like 'flying like that is not historical' or 'fighting in an environment of mixed aircraft is not historical' well it may not be for Western Europe but on the Ostfront (especially early) and in the Med it sure was 'historical'.
LOL ... Wotan... now you are making me laugh. You can't make some comparison between AH furballing and what was done by Marseille. No one in AH needs to worry about vision problems, or working out on their stomach muscles or colliding with friendly aircraft in a big fight. No one is fighting for thier lives and the lack of that drastically reduces the adrenile rush that can cause confusion and hesitation and the many other physical and mental effects actual fear can cause.
Your argument about The SpitI being targeted, just because the icon now identifies it is lame. The difference is very easy to see at the leading edge of the wing,,, cannons or no cannons. People could always see that anyway.
As for the 109 arguement, to me it's mute also. If I see 2 109s flying together, I'm going to engage the one that I feel I have the biggest advantage over at the moment so I can get 1 killed and change the odds as fast as possible. If the one I choose to go after first turns out to be G10 and the other E, I'm not going to switch targets mid-pass. When I have advantage over bandits, I choose the fight I want. I may decide to engage the later war plane 1st, or may go for the early war plane first, but like I said, it depends a lot on relative position, E states, AOT, etc.
If I'm defensive, it's pretty much the same thing. I know I'm not going to out-turn a spit, and don't have much turn advantage on a 109 of any type, so I'm going to want to get fast as I can as quick as I can.
The 190-A8 and D9 argument is another one that makes no sense here. It was easy to tell a D from an A series at ranges further than the new icon tells. Same with D from TA152.
Really, I think the anti-icon crowd are the ones in the furballs trying to pick off newbies, because it's only in a furball / horde where the newbies who couldn't tell the difference between planes before were located. Now some "vet" who used to do well in a 109E in a furball thinks that the newbies are all the sudden going to realize the difference between an E and a G just because the icon tells them the exact type. The fact is, most of them barely know the difference between a Spit and a 109, let alone the difference between two verisions of the same plane.
Another thought is that in AHI, everyone knew which 109 they were fighting against by the paint / skin. There was only one skin for each plane, so it wasn't hard to tell the difference. Before you keep complaining about the types, I'd like to see a K/D chart showing 109 type kills prior to and after the advent of changable skins. Then we can add another chart that shows the same before and after the new icon system...
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Actually it is because of AH1 that I hardly ever fly the G-2. I'd jump back and forth between the F-4 and the G-10, but the G-2 had those blue swastikas out on the wings that just screamed "I'm a G-2!".
I actually never learned to tell the F-4 and the G-10 apart, the G-6 and the G-2 were pretty easy.
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You can't make some comparison between AH furballing and what was done by Marseille.
I can't and I didn't. What I said was that a highly maneuverable single aircraft can get lost in a furball.
I'll quote it again for you:
In the visual conditions in the main (meaning SA because icons at a glance can give away much more info then pilots would have in real life) a highly maneuvering single aircraft can get into a fur ball and in fact become 'hidden' while right out in the open.
It's quite similar to what is attributed to Marseille in this quote:
Tactics - That's where Marseille marked himself as a great innovator of air warfare, and he kept improving. He claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert, large formations are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances.
It would seem the inability to follow a discussion is squadron wide with you fellows...
It's your squad mate's contention that this type of 'hiding' is 'gamey' when in fact it's closer to real life then 'exact plane type icons'. I can provide quotes from Ostfront vets who make the same claims. So I don't know what you read but my point seemed clear to me.
Your argument about The Spit 1 being targeted, just because the icon now identifies it is lame. The difference is very easy to see at the leading edge of the wing,,, cannons or no cannons. People could always see that anyway.
Non-sense in the example I used above about the 109 E applies equally to a Spit 1. With a Spit 1 closing you look back and see the 'Spit' icon you couldn't see those cannons from front profile view.
As for the 109 argument, to me it's mute also. If I see 2 109s flying together, I'm going to engage the one that I feel I have the biggest advantage over at the moment so I can get 1 killed and change the odds as fast as possible. If the one I choose to go after first turns out to be G10 and the other E, I'm not going to switch targets mid-pass. When I have advantage over bandits, I choose the fight I want. I may decide to engage the later war plane 1st, or may go for the early war plane first, but like I said, it depends a lot on relative position, E states, AOT, etc.
Everyone knows how your squad flies. All this has been covered before and has nothing to do with my point as I illustrated it above in regards to the affect that the new icons may have on early birds..
The 190-A8 and D9 argument is another one that makes no sense here. It was easy to tell a D from an A series at ranges further than the new icon tells. Same with D from TA152.
Is that addressed to me? If so it's another irrelevant point that has nothing to with anything I mentioned. I was discussing specifically the effect of the icons on very early war aircraft. If you are confused go back and re-read my replies.
Really, I think the anti-icon crowd are the ones in the furballs trying to pick off newbies, because it's only in a furball / horde where the newbies who couldn't tell the difference between planes before were located. Now some "vet" who used to do well in a 109E in a furball thinks that the newbies are all the sudden going to realize the difference between an E and a G just because the icon tells them the exact type. The fact is, most of them barely know the difference between a Spit and a 109, let alone the difference between two versions of the same plane.
Another thought is that in AHI, everyone knew which 109 they were fighting against by the paint / skin. There was only one skin for each plane, so it wasn't hard to tell the difference. Before you keep complaining about the types, I'd like to see a K/D chart showing 109 type kills prior to and after the advent of changable skins. Then we can add another chart that shows the same before and after the new icon system...
The later 109s are and will always be competitive in AH. They have everything that makes a good fighter, a fine mix of good acceleration, climb rate and maneuverability. It's just as easy to look at the AH1 109 skins and tell the 109s apart as it is in AH2 with custom skins. There are visual cues that give them away. I haven't said anything about that about that. The Emil in AH1 had an obvious yellow nose but most people re-act to the icon because its the most obvious visible cue.
The point with the Emil and the other early birds is that the same type of complaint that originated with the specific plane type icon being a magnet for gangers may also apply to those early aircraft. As I said above the effective kill range for these types of planes are much closer then the later aircraft. As such 'time in gun solution' is important. The Spit 1 tag will mean a neg g to nose low extension is all that's needed to escape. Folks will react to the specific tag differently then they would a generic 'Spit' tag making flying the Spit 1 more pointless then it is now.
But as I said above:
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you will see even less.
While you may go after any enemy that's closest the majority of players in AH are not Levi. As I said the 'horde' follows the path of least resistance. That's why you see the hordes in the first place.
But as long as the majority are having fun who cares...
Rare things grab attention over the mundane every day things. Thats is my point in my replies on the topic of the new icons.
No where did I ask for flying tips, and I sure wouldn't ask them from members of your squad. We simply don't any commonality in the planes we fly or how we fly them.
Another ghey 'wall o'text' I know but if I don't spell every thing out in exact detail some of these folks get extremely confused.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Definately a "nub" Lute ... feel better ? :D
yeah... i was leanin' towards a "nub", but w/ 8yrs of WW2 flight sim exp. I wasn't sure. I'm kinda in the middle compared to some.
hmmm..... wait! i got it... nub + vet = NUT.
Ahhhh... most def. a nut. I'm happy w/ that.
Proud to be AH's #1 NUT.
I see a whole new meaning to "busting a NUT" already!
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Please explain since you have yet to do so. Why up a plane if your afraid people will know what your flying? What's the difference if they disable skins and get the same information that way? What are you going to protest the disabling of skins too?
It's simple if your afraid to fly it because someone will know what it is then don't fly it. Would it suit you best if they implemented a system that designated just if it were a fighter, bomber,and transport? Then it'd be "fair" and wouldn't offend the poor soles that choose to up a particular airframe and forbid to take responsibility for making such a decision.
Since you seem to think it's your right to be able to hide behind an icon. It is also the other persons right to know what your flying. You want the icon system to help you but at the same time your selfishness puts blinders on that makes you incapable of seeing this system helps the newer guys by knowing what your flying. Even if they don't know every last in and out of a particular airframe it can assist them. But again your to selfish to see anything other than how this system hurts you and not how it helps the rest of the newer pilots. I will say though your stance doesn't surprise me as it seems the community as a whole is almost always thinking me me me and not the other way around.
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I think the new icons are not that much of an issue.
I remember vaguely that I always wanted the icons to be like that, but that was when my fav. plane was the tempest. lol The new system certainly helps the perk planes, the faster they are the bigger the advantage they gain. High closure speed means less time they are exposing their perk tag to any given opponent.
Almost ideal conditions for the Tempest now.
I dont see the big problem for the 109s either. The system now is almost identical to what we had in AH1, back then it was the skin and now it's the icon. Granted, the F-4 cant sucker anyone into a dogfight because someone is confusing it with a G-10. The real problem imho is that nowadays even the F-4 has a hard time outturning anything in the game that i believe the advantage of this tactic is nonexistant anyway.
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Cobra, I'm not terribly familiar with how you fly, so I'll ask a question.
It seems (if I am wrong, forgive me for making the assumption) that you are usually flying with a wingman, or in the company of other friendlies. Having someone to watch your back and bail you out of trouble goes a long way towards evening out the advantage you give up when you fly a non-'45 plane.
I am typically flying alone, or at most in the presence of 1 or 2 friendlies who aren't necesarily working with me. That isn't a bad thing, I prefer that kind of play personally. But that may be the reason why I point to the plane (and numbers) as having more impact on a fight then any kind of personal "skill". You are only as good as the plane you are in, in my opinion.
If this were the MA 4 years ago, I'd agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that early war planes aren't necesarily harmed by this change. However, in the MA of today, where the fights tend to be X on 1 (where X is usually between 4 and 15 or so) your choices are either fly with the X, or fly a '45 plane. Even before the icon changes, flying a early-war (read .303 or MG-FF armed) plane was fairly futile because you usually can't kill the first opponent fast enough to keep the numbers managable. That really won't change to much with the introduction of the new icons, it'll just make it that much harder to get the first guy to even engage before his help shows up. Hell, I spent my first night back flying the P-40, and *nobody* would engage until it was at least 2 v 1. I had spits (on multiple occasions) and a zeke (on 1 occasion) camp out a few thousand feet above me waiting for some buddies to show up before engaging.
So is that a lapse of my "SA" or something? Should my "SA" have kicked in in the hangar and said "Wait, you want to pick a faster plane!"?
Or should my "SA" have said "Pick a different field to fly from, there aren't enough friendlies to help you out here."?
Yea, I know I'm being sarcastic, sorry. It just comes out without trying lol.
Anyway, this argument is pretty pointless, so I guess I'm done.
A chitty pilot will always be a chitty pilot no matter what he/she flies in. A pilot who is mediocre will have their ups and downs in an early war bird and a pilot who is beyond mediocre will still win more than they lose in an early war bird. It seems your just making an excuse for you and others lack of ability to fight and win.
I'll close with some meaningless numbers. Back in the beginning of January I tooled around in the Spit for about a week before deleting my account out of frustration. I did the Ki-84 some to, because it has a wicked cool paint job. In the Spit 5, I went 84 and 10, Spit 9 was 22 and 6, Ki-84 was 23 and 4.
The night I came back, I went 9 and 5 in the P-40. Since I said the hell with slow planes, I'm ~25 and 2 in the G-10.
How would you explain such a drastic difference in performance given the only variable changing is the plane, not the pilot? Pretty much all my fights are the same, they go from 1-3 v 1, I usually won't engage if there are more than 3, unless I don't have a choice... in which case I usually die valiantly and quickly. The picking and choosing is much easier to do in the G-10, while the actual killing is done much more quickly in the Spit.
Anyway, have a good day all.
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Really simply put, if people would leave the accountants and tally counters back at the hangar and stop playing "Tally me bananas", and try to have a little fun, that`s exacctly what you would get. Fun.
Trying to impress someone else with X, Y and Z stat wise is hilarious to me. The stats are only usefull to each individual if they are trying to work on a particualr area as a gudeline for YOU. Even in this case there always seems to be something that will screw up stat wise in any particular tour. Only you can tell what is what and what adjustments reflect actual correctness. For an example, for the last two to three months I would go into the game, pick a plane and head out. Within a short time, on many occasions, the engine would sputter and go dead. Then I would realize that the fuel settings had been changed from my norm to 25%. Get in a plane that I normaly use in attack mode, head to base only to discover on arriving that I had no ord. I knew something was screwy because I run the same fuel/ord etc loadout on most every occasion for a particualr plane. Then I discovered that not only was the fuel/ord being changed, but also the fighter/attack modes were also being changed. Just about the time I would think everything was back to norm , BAM, here we would go again. Finaly got with Skuzz and after about a week it was discovered that "enable cache writing" was checked on the disk.
My point is, fly for yourself and to have fun. To hell with the rest of it. If it`s fun do it and forget about quotas and put the Stanleys away in a drawer somewhere. Fly what you want , when you want to and let the other guy do the same. You will have a lot more fun.
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I'm not trying to impress anybody with anything. I put them up there so Cobra could explain to me how the same pilot could get such drastically different results even though he stays the same pilot.
I don't really care what anyone thinks of me, those who think I'm a dick are going to think I'm a dick no matter what I do, those that think I suck will think I suck no matter what kind of "stats" I've got.
Those stats are purely for contrast, I'm sure if I look hard enough I could find a similar dichotomy in any other pilot.
How would you explain it Jackal?
Think I just need to try harder in the P-40?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
My point is, fly for yourself and to have fun. To hell with the rest of it. If it`s fun do it and forget about quotas and put the Stanleys away in a drawer somewhere. Fly what you want , when you want to and let the other guy do the same. You will have a lot more fun.
That is about the most asanine statement I've seen in this thread. While it isn't impossible to fly a non-'45 plane (or a Spit) and have "fun", if actually getting a kill before you die makes the game "fun" for you, then you aren't going to have much "fun" flying anything else.
If you *DO* have fun getting assraped 6 on 1 every sortie in a P-40, then more power to you, you are a far better man than I.
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Ease off there Urch. I wasn`t referring to you.:D
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Originally posted by Wotan
I can't and I didn't. What I said was that a highly maneuverable single aircraft can get lost in a furball.
You might not see it, but you are making that comparison. There is no furball with with only one bandit (I.e. a single 109E) against a mixed group of opposing aircraft. So, no matter how maneuverable the 109E is, it's not going to get lost as you suggest... not in AH. Every pilot has INSTANT control of where they are looking, regardless of turn or Gs (exception blacking out) and the icon makes the aircraft instantly discernable from all other friendlies. I don't care who the pilot is, he won't get lost in the fight.
In a real AH furball, having many friendly and enemy aircraft at once, it is not probable that a single 109E or SpitI or whatever is going to get everyone clammoring to kill it first. In fact, I believe that most pilots will discount the presence of it in order to give priority to all the late war aircraft that are in the same furball and presenting a much greater threat.
Originally posted by Wotan
Non-sense in the example I used above about the 109 E applies equally to a Spit 1. With a Spit 1 closing you look back and see the 'Spit' icon you couldn't see those cannons from front profile view.
Maybe so, but now you are inferring that the spit or 109 in question had not been seen at all previous to the pilot in front noticing it on his six. In the case of said spit or 109 being at greater range than 800, the pilot still has no idea which type it is and will act (most likely) in the assumation that it is a later war spit or 109. In the case where said spit or 109 is already within 800 before getting noticed, the defensive pilot is already in trouble because if a 109E or SpitI is that close, he is probably too slow to run now and is certain to be out-turned.
Originally posted by Wotan
Is that addressed to me?
No, the 190 comment is pointed to the ones who have been saying A8s are now useless compared to D9s.
Originally posted by Wotan
As such 'time in gun solution' is important. The Spit 1 tag will mean a neg g to nose low extension is all that's needed to escape. Folks will react to the specific tag differently then they would a generic 'Spit' tag making flying the Spit 1 more pointless then it is now.
A SpitI looses this suprise as soon as he shoots, or if the pilot he shoots hasn't seen him, as soon as the tickle of 303s is heard. The knowing to push Neg G's to stall the spitI's engine is not reactionary to most AH players anyway. Most will break into a max-g turn, which a spitI can easliy follow.
And as I stated in my post, let's see some before and after stats on the 109E and SpitI before whining up a huge controvesy about this.
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Originally posted by Urchin
That really won't change to much with the introduction of the new icons, it'll just make it that much harder to get the first guy to even engage before his help shows up. Hell, I spent my first night back flying the P-40, and *nobody* would engage until it was at least 2 v 1. I had spits (on multiple occasions) and a zeke (on 1 occasion) camp out a few thousand feet above me waiting for some buddies to show up before engaging.
Oh come off it, Urchin. Give us a break would you? If I see a single fighter of ANY type a few thousand feet below me, I'm going in RIGHT NOW before some other clown comes along to steal the kill. I don't know where you guys fly, but I don't see this cowardly flying where someone won't engage until they have a friendly to help them.
Repeating a statement I seem to make all the time... I regularly go out alone to bases where many enemy cons are flying from and engage them all by my lonesome, all makes, all models, early war or late. Yes, I'm in a P-51D, but I'm not waiting on other friendlies before I start engaging.
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you guys are nuts....
I can fly a spit mk1, try really hard to get a kill, then die.
I can fly a spit14 and get 5 kills easy and not die.
I can fly a Typh and BnZ dweebs untill i waste all my ammo, then go for some bombers and die.
I can fly a P-40E, and on any given day get 5 kills no problem. then another day i get screwed by 5 LA7s at once.
I can fly a jug and get hundreds of kills before my ammo runs dry.
I can fly a 262 and get nothing 'cos everyone notices a 262.
I can fly a 109F and get no kills cos my aim with luft guns sucks.
I can fly a goon and get 10 proxies as dweebs auger diving on me.
I can drive a tank and spend 2 hours finding my spot then get avacadoed by a tiger or a jabo.
I can fly a bomber and shoot everyone down from 1k.
I can do WHAT THE F**K I LIKE, and make my own fun in any plane, against any odds.
Its all about, as with most of life, being in the right place at the right time.
Urchin, im sure if you stopped with the negative waves you could enjoy it again. come fight me in DA, that'll make you feel better schooling me a few times in early war birds.
i think you personally are suffering from such intense burnout that you forgot what AH is about.
I remeber Jackal picking my arse out of my spit5 from the saftey of his CV gun no less than 4 times in 5 mins, while i was on the tail of a con each time..... no biggie, we laughed about it, i called him a banana gun dweeb and he shot me down again.
It was fun, and rather funny.
Enjoy the game or quit whining, things dont change from negative imput, only from possitive.
And it is VERY EASY to find a few dweebs to own in a P40 or an FM2.
Easy peasy.
its gotta be fun, or you gotta go somewhere else.
this isnt an attack urch, i like you, think you're cool and honest and a wicked fighter pilot. You just need to get back on the crack that is AH, or scrub your hands of it completely.
these posts cant make you happy.
love you guys....DWEEBS
batfink
S!
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Originally posted by mechanic
I remeber Jackal picking my arse out of my spit5 from the saftey of his CV gun no less than 4 times in 5 mins, while i was on the tail of a con each time..... no biggie, we laughed about it, i called him a banana gun dweeb and he shot me down again.
It was fun, and rather funny.
S!
ROFL I still haven`t figured out how I was doin that at that distance.
I also remember being in an A8 and you was in a 110 once. I nearly wore the leather off of my offcial LW spiked heels on that one.
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Urchin I honestly think it depends on the fights you choose and where you choose to fight them. I don't fly with the hordes as some may think and I don't fly at ungodly alts as some may think. More often than not I'm flying alone or maybe around a few other friendlies who aren't necessarily working with me just as you said previously.
The community will never shy away from the 3 on 1 or more. It's a way of life for most and it's just something that others who don't choose to fly that way will have to deal with. You can try to hide amongst the crowd and survive. You can try to choose a less volatile area to fight in. Or you could fight on the edge of the main battle and drag one or two cons out to an area you want them away from their friendlies.
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Please explain since you have yet to do so. Why up a plane if your afraid people will know what your flying? What's the difference if they disable skins and get the same information that way? What are you going to protest the disabling of skins too?
Quote the word 'afraid' as used by me.
Who cares about 'skins'? Quote what I said about 'skins'.
It's simple if your afraid to fly it because someone will know what it is then don't fly it. Would it suit you best if they implemented a system that designated just if it were a fighter, bomber,and transport? Then it'd be "fair" and wouldn't offend the poor soles that choose to up a particular airframe and forbid to take responsibility for making such a decision.
Quote what I said about the new icons.
I specifically said that they may have an impact on early plane usage. Anything above and beyond that point in this thread has nothing to do with me.
Now search my career stats and tell me what planes I fly.
You make assumptions about the made up thoughts in your head. How about dealing with what I actually type and not the about fantasy discussion you are having in your head.
Since you seem to think it's your right to be able to hide behind an icon. It is also the other persons right to know what your flying. You want the icon system to help you but at the same time your selfishness puts blinders on that makes you incapable of seeing this system helps the newer guys by knowing what your flying. Even if they don't know every last in and out of a particular airframe it can assist them. But again your to selfish to see anything other than how this system hurts you and not how it helps the rest of the newer pilots. I will say though your stance doesn't surprise me as it seems the community as a whole is almost always thinking me me me and not the other way around.
Quote where I said I wanted to hide behind icons. Selfish? As I said what planes do I fly in AH? Innominates career stats will help there. Wotan / Batz / Helvik are the three niks I have used in AH.
You still haven't told your in game nik? And you make claims about hiding...
My reply to your claim that anything other then exact plane type icons is 'gamey' or 'unrealistic' was to point out the fact that in real life pilots used certain techniques that allowed them to hide in plain view.
Don't equate a rebuttal of your claims with advocacy. I made it clear in replies to Levi what my opinion is toward the new icons. Go back and read it.
Your problem is you read and then can't comprehend what is written. Or if you do you try like hell to re-define the discussion around things that are completely irrelevant.
Midnight,
You might not see it, but you are making that comparison. There is no furball with with only one bandit (I.e. a single 109E) against a mixed group of opposing aircraft. So, no matter how maneuverable the 109E is, it's not going to get lost as you suggest... not in AH. Every pilot has INSTANT control of where they are looking, regardless of turn or Gs (exception blacking out) and the icon makes the aircraft instantly discernable from all other friendlies. I don't care who the pilot is, he won't get lost in the fight.
Sure it will, since are you a furballer anyway?
In a real AH furball, having many friendly and enemy aircraft at once, it is not probable that a single 109E or Spit I or whatever is going to get everyone clammoring to kill it first. In fact, I believe that most pilots will discount the presence of it in order to give priority to all the late war aircraft that are in the same furball and presenting a much greater threat.
Again since when are you a 'furballer'?
What Marseille learned and did was also repeated individually and in groups by the LW on the eastern front as well. It's your squad mates contention that this is 'gamey' when it happened in real life.
I will dig some more quotes up from other LW pilots when I get home from work.
Maybe so, but now you are inferring that the spit or 109 in question had not been seen at all previous to the pilot in front noticing it on his six. In the case of said spit or 109 being at greater range than 800, the pilot still has no idea which type it is and will act (most likely) in the assumation that it is a later war spit or 109. In the case where said spit or 109 is already within 800 before getting noticed, the defensive pilot is already in trouble because if a 109E or Spit I is that close, he is probably too slow to run now and is certain to be out-turned.
Again since when have you ever been in a furball? Urchin described the situation several times and he is right.
A Spit I looses this suprise as soon as he shoots, or if the pilot he shoots hasn't seen him, as soon as the tickle of 303s is heard. The knowing to push Neg G's to stall the spitI's engine is not reactionary to most AH players anyway. Most will break into a max-g turn, which a spitI can easliy follow.
And as I stated in my post, let's see some before and after stats on the 109E and Spit I before whining up a huge controvesy about this.
Again Urchin described the situation above. As I have said folks react to the icon even prior to AH2 and they will after. In the past they see the '109' tag and since the G-10 was the 109 preferred most their experience would be to break rather then just nose low and extend. Same with the Spit 1 or Hurri 1. Folks see the icon and based on their experience expect to get a full salvo of Hizookas.
Once they break they give these early planes the opportunity to kill them.
The break also provide a large plane form shot as they pull lead, which they are able to do.
As Urchin pointed out above very few folks fly these aircraft to begin with and they account for around .05% of all kills in AH over a tour. I have said these aircraft are rare as well, go back and read it. A drop of .01 percent is significant in terms of overall numbers in regards to these types of aircraft..
The only point I brought up was the effect of the new icons may have on these very early aircraft. All the other garbage is a result of folks like you and your squad mate being unable to stick with the subject at hand with out going off on irrelevant tangents.
I will post some quotes of LW pilots in the east this evening but this thread is running in circles now, 412th guys make up stuff and then I type a 500 word reply.
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oops,
Hiya Leitwolf!!!
How ya been?
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Even though I never fly perk planes I like the new Icon setup because if I *DO* dercide to take up an F4U-4, Spit 14 or a Tempest it gives you a chance to at least get into a fight without the neon "PERK PLANE" tag.
I dont really see what the big deal is with the new system, seems logical to me that as you get closer you should be able to determine more info. Heck, by the time I can see the detail icon the fight is usually over one way or another for me, either me or him dying.
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Eliminate the gamey Icons
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I can post quotes all day also if that's what you'd like. I've got plenty of books too with quotes that will fit my point of view. Meaning if the person flies intelligently the icon system will mean very little in the first place. This goes for the person in the early war bird and the late war bird regardless if the person knows what your flying.
Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw
"There is a big difference if you are in actual war or if you are playing war."
Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, GAF
"Fly with the head and not with the muscles. That is the way to long life for a fighter pilot. The fighter pilot who is all muscle and no head will never live long enough for a pension."
Colonel Willie Batz, GAF. 237 Victories
"A good fighter pilot, like a good boxer, should have a knockout punch....You will find one attack you prefer to all others. Work on it till you can do it to perfection....then use it whenever possible."
Captain Reade Tilly, USAAF
"As to gunnery passes, the best was when you dived with speed, made one pass, shot an opponent down quickly, and pulled back up....The secret was to do the job in one pass; it could be from side or from behind and I usually tried to open fire at about 150 feet."
Major Erich Rudorffer, GAF. 222 Victories
"If you are thoroughly conversant with tactics, you will recognize the enemy's intentions and thus have many opportunities to win."
Miyamoto Musashi
"Don't let the enemy trick you into pulling up or turning until you lose your speed."
Major Thomas B. "Tommy" McGuire, USAAF
And last but not least
"The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it."
Baron Manfred von Richthofen.
btw wanna know who I'am... Search Cobra412 from Tour 42 to Tour 59. Tour 43 to present search for Erebus.
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I think its great the only people I see that don’t like it are the one’s that want to trick or hide what they have. If you want more advantage than have better SA or have alt. Not plane trickery. Also If you going to say knowing what plane isn’t fare than I would also say that have to many types of planes in one arena is just as unfair. This give a pilot his choice to fly what plane he like for enjoyment and how he want to fly it and not what’s going to make it like a kids game and who’s just out trying to get kills for the sake of getting kills. I feel there is a community of players that love the game just for the feel that it gives us a chance to experience a new world of WWII flying and the love of the whole game. Or should I say a whole new world to play in.
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I've beaten many people in the P-40E and P-40B which were flying late war birds by myself.
Career Stats can be found here:
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php
I was looking for all your P-40B kills. You made it sound as if all you hard 'planning' and proper flying techniques were paying off. At 12 and 7 over your entire 2+ year career in AH it wasn't what I expected considering your quote above. Do you define 12 as many? Or did you just mean 'many' in regards to the P-40E?
I can post quotes all day also if that's what you'd like. I've got plenty of books too with quotes that will fit my point of view. Meaning if the person flies intelligently the icon system will mean very little in the first place. This goes for the person in the early war bird and the late war bird regardless if the person knows what your flying.
None of those quotes in your post having anything at all to do with your claim that the lack of exact type icons is 'gamey'. Once again you are unable to follow from point A to point B to make a coherent point or at least one that deals with the subject at hand.
I have be some where at 7:30 but I certainly will post quotes that deal with what's actually being discussed when I get back.
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Some of you people worry too much about who and what your fighting than fighting at all.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
ROFL I still haven`t figured out how I was doin that at that distance.
I also remember being in an A8 and you was in a 110 once. I nearly wore the leather off of my offcial LW spiked heels on that one.
so many cannons going at it i cant remember how it ended from the noise. those 110s fly real good if you knock the wheels off.....er....accidentally of course.
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thanks for messing up the thread ****ers
for me... i dont like to see too much specifics on icons, i would like to see old icon back... but with some changes
(for some changes)
start by returning to previous icon mode
pls no more transitions (SPIT at long range / SPIT14 at close range)
make the la-5/la-7 and C202/205 to just 1 name.. LAGG and MACCI (on icon)
make prop perk planes hide. For example, SPIT14 icon should just be... SPIT (again pls no more transitions), F4U4 = F4U, and make 152 hide to 190 icon.
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Originally posted by Grits
I dont really see what the big deal is with the new system, seems logical to me that as you get closer you should be able to determine more info.
Agreed. Hadn't realized there were all these wolves-in-sheeps-clothing people.
- oldman
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IMO if I have to deal with so many plane choices in my fight than its only fare that I know what I am fighting and what I need to do to win!!!! Now that makes it fun even when you lose. Not just a kill for the sake of kill. I bet the ones that want old icon’s think that score matters also lol.
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Originally posted by tikky
thanks for messing up the thread ****ers
our pleasure im sure, it has been rather an interesting one with no real harm done.
nice thread topic dude, better than most trolls i've seen..
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Cobra
Again he is typically pushing his opinion across the board, regardless of anyone else's. As far as being able to " follow from point A to point B to make a coherent point or at least one that deals with the subject at hand", ; this is hardly relevant as long as it stays one-sided. That one gets quoted quite often by the way.
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Wotan go ahead and quote from any WWII pilot you'd like. I'm sure they'll have as much to do with this discussion as the last ones did. Considering you don't even fly this game anymore I'm curious as to why you even come around still?
You wanna whimper about icons then protest about having HTC remove them completely. This would fit your realism kick and you could try and sucker people into a fight. I really feel though it's a mute point considering the only thing you'll be doing is killing those folks who don't think before they jump into a fight. Which means in the end you'd only be killing new pilots which shouldn't be a problem in the first place and killing people who fly wrecklessly and could probably give a watermelon less if they get killed to start off with.
You and whoever else wants to try and hide will still get their arses kicked by better pilots in the end. They won't fall for your deception tactics and just waste you after the first or second pass. So that basically puts you back to the middle of the pack where you belonged in the first place. In the mean time though I'm sure your few kills against the ones who don't know any better and the ones who frankly don't care will boost your ego long enough to hold you over till the next 2 or 3 kill sortie and 20 perk points. In the end you'll still only be surviving 33 to 50% of your sorties which doesn't really fit in with your whole realism stance.
So concerened about icons? Setup your own server that is as realistic as it can get and stay out of the main. It's not all about you and the very few who wanna fly perk rides or fly early war birds and try to deceive those who are gullible enough to fall for your "tactics". Go fly the CT or SEA if want a realistic setup that gives you a chance and fair playing grounds for all. The icon system is fair. It shows the sub type of the aircraft at the same time as every other aircraft in the arena. So why should you or anyone else flying a particular aircraft get special treatment?
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You wanna whimper about icons then protest about having HTC remove them completely. This would fit your realism kick and you could try and sucker people into a fight. I really feel though it's a mute point considering the only thing you'll be doing is killing those folks who don't think before they jump into a fight. Which means in the end you'd only be killing new pilots which shouldn't be a problem in the first place and killing people who fly wrecklessly and could probably give a watermelon less if they get killed to start off with.
Quote what I said about icons...
The sum total of my 'icon whines' in this this thread can be found in my reply to Levi:
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you will see even less.
[Snip]
But as long as the majority are having fun who cares...
That's it bud.
I see know why you decided to type your 'how to manual'. You just can't read and confused the above with a question.
You and whoever else wants to try and hide will still get their arses kicked by better pilots in the end. They won't fall for your deception tactics and just waste you after the first or second pass. So that basically puts you back to the middle of the pack where you belonged in the first place. In the mean time though I'm sure your few kills against the ones who don't know any better and the ones who frankly don't care will boost your ego long enough to hold you over till the next 2 or 3 kill sortie and 20 perk points. In the end you'll still only be surviving 33 to 50% of your sorties which doesn't really fit in with your whole realism stance.
That's even more comical after looking at your career stats. But that is good because if you are going to play the clown at least be some what funny.
You are average as they come. Yet you felt as if I needed your flying advice. I am best mediocre but if you look at my career stats they sure hell don't reflect 33 - 50% survival rates or me getting but kicked. In fact on average mine are higher then yours, that's with my 14 year nephew who flew 1/3 rd of the time. Looks like all you planning and perfect technique needs a little work.
To others who may read this I care nothing about stats in so far as it relates to who or who isn't 'skilled'. Its been this guy who through out his posts seems to imply that he's some kind of 'hot stick' willing to jump in and offer advice on 'how to do it right'. Much like his claim of 'killing many vets in a P-40B' his is full of ****. I only bring up the whole 'stat' thing to show that.
So concerened about icons? Setup your own server that is as realistic as it can get and stay out of the main. It's not all about you and the very few who wanna fly perk rides or fly early war birds and try to deceive those who are gullible enough to fall for your "tactics". Go fly the CT or SEA if want a realistic setup that gives you a chance and fair playing grounds for all. The icon system is fair. It shows the sub type of the aircraft at the same time as every other aircraft in the arena. So why should you or anyone else flying a particular aircraft get special treatment?
I never mentioned the word 'fair' once. My 'concern' over icons can be found in my quote above. I never said anything about wanting a 'realism arena'. My opinions are clear on what I like in the main. A search of this forum for my past posts will educate you.
The only time I mentioned 'realism' was in reply to your idiotic claim that with out knowing exact plane type AH is 'gamey'.
this is hardly relevant as long as it stays one-sided.
Not at all, he can disagree with me I could careless. The issue isn't his opinion on the specific subject of icons its his inability to stay focused on that subject and address what was actually said rather then making things up.
He brought up 'this is how you should fly'. He brought numerous other issues that have nothing to do with anything I've said. To top that off he makes a post of quotes that are completely irrelevant to the topic or to anything else thats been written in this thread. He makes the claim that not knowing exact plane type is gamey, I provided a quote that countered that and his reply is nonsense and unrelated quotes.
Did you train him? From our last discussion its clear both of you suffer from the same problem. You can't stay on point long enough to keep a focused discussion.
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Wotan go back to IL2. You want to critique something that you have no experience with. Why you choose to wander around here and critique this game when you don't even play it anymore is beyond me.
You can try and belittle me all day if you'd like. Considering you seem to think stats show some kind of truth as to how good a player is. I also find it amusing that you've played flight sims for how long? I'm sure you also had someone take you under their wing and train you too. Cosidering you have probably 3 times the amount of experience in flight sims and you wanna talk about how much better you are. I guess I'm not too bad then with a little over a year and a half worth of self training. Especially considering I'm just below average and your just well, average.
By the way in regards to your icon "whine" that you posted. It really doesn't matter since your just speculating and have nothing solid to base your claims off of since you don't even play the game anymore. Had you actually played the game under this new icon system then you might have had legs to stand on. Then you could critique the game all you wanted and build a huge data base to try and prove what your only speculating about now. Speculating is no different than making an assumption and I'm sure everyone already knows what that means.
You can sit here all day and try come up with your own theories on how this may affect the arenas and certain aircraft. With out practical experience using the system your nothing more than a desk jockey trying to make a process better but yet have no practical experience in the process in the first place. If you ask me that sounds alot like how the engineers I deal with on a daily basis are. They scratch their heads when something goes wrong due to a simple failure induced by them. The only reason it was a problem in the first place was because of their lack of practical experience with the system. Even with their big degree their ability to analyze the problem and remedy the failure was and always is a total goat rope.
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There you go again, changing direction once more.
My opinion is that the new icon may effect the already limited (and mostly insignificant) early bird usage. The plane stats post 'new icons' will either confirm or deny that.
My 'speculation' is no less valid then any one else's.
Don't speak to me about 'assumptions' anyone can read your nonsensical posts and see what 'assumptions' get you.
Belittle you? You seem to think so highly of yourself that you took it upon yourself to hand out unsolicited advice about 'how you do it'. Advice that was not asked for nor part of the discussion. From a look at your career stats it would seem you need help yourself. It turns out you are nothing but at best 'average'. Pointing that out may seem like I am belittling you but that's how it is when you spew BS.
I guess that brings this thread to a close. If you have anything else you need to say to me just move it over to my squad forum or email. I don't think anyone else cares to read this thread anymore.
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aw, it was just getting goo........zzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... ............................. ............................. ....
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz................. ...
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Bye Wotan. Thanks for making it easy. Didn't even have to bait the hook.
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Son, you will find the hook stuck in your ***. :)
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Well, I'll say from 1st hand experience that trying to find a fight in the 109F is easy. All you have to do is fly into 3 or 4 spits and you can get in a fight.
Getting in a fight with anything else is kind of tough though, since as soon as they see your icon saying "109F" after you evade their first clumsy newb pass, they level out and leave.
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Hey, did you guys hear that they are taking the nuts out of Rocky Road ice cream?
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I wish HiTech would allow you to change the setting to NO Icons or at least to a minimum distance.
This would make it very interesting and I could set my H2H arena to this setting to give people a feel for what it was really like in battle and how difficult Aircraft Identification was. It would also discipline people not to shoot until they identified the target which would mean they would have to get pretty close before firing.
P.S. I hear the reason the Allies won the Air War in Europe was because they had their Icon Range set at 60.
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Originally posted by 4510
Is this why in all the WWII movies and pictures.... the pilots are leaning out of their cockpits... trying to hear the other guy's engine?
Nope they have their binoculars stuck to their eyes as they slide back the canopy are trying to see the planes profile at 400 yds.:lol
I'd love to see no icons under two conditions.
1) The tail color "id's" the plane as enemy or some other marking on the wings/fuselage that would say, when you actually see him, he's a knit or ruk or bish.
2) Do away with ZOOM and model the planes to the correct size so you can see them at the correct distance without binocs (zoom).
THEN....
You could also do away with distance icons.
Now that would be realistic!!!!
I'd almost bet it would be like the BOB was in RL. You'd head toward what appeared to be a swarm of enemy planes. You'd get an ID then get in. Within 20 seconds the skies would prolly be cleared of all planes that you could see. Gotta have clouds to hide in too!!!
:)
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2) Do away with ZOOM and model the planes to the correct size so you can see them at the correct distance without binocs (zoom).
The planes are all the correct size. Size perception and monitors is a strange thing.Want bigger planes? Then just move your eyes closer to the monitor. The perception of size is only based on other objects of known size, and the speed at which it is travling.
It is realy strange but want somthing to seem to slow down, just make everything bigger in the world, want it to apear faster , make everything smaller.
A closer representation of normal vission perception is the default gun zoom. But it leaves you with out any perfial vision.
There is no way to display real vesion in computer graphics, The resolution of a monitor is just not capable of displaying objects as they apear in real life.
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Put the icons on the good guys (your country), And no, none, zilch, zip zero icons , None at all on the bad guys (the other country). No iconie on zee red guys. That would be interesting! They just get in my way, throw me off sometimes, because they distract me! :p I dont care if i know what im flying against. as soon as they ripp by you'll know what it is if you know your planes. If you dont know them real good by sight (like me), oh well, just hope you know how to fly the plane your in. icon smicon pssft!
Ta da! There that fixes that!. done! ** dusts hands off(()))
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Rgr that! I know distance from eyeball to screen is as much a player and pixel res size plays a role. However, if you put yer eyeball on the screen and still can't tell the plane type at 400 yds without icon recognition then plane "size" has to play a role.
In other words, if yer standing on the runway in front of a pony at 10 feet do you actually see a 37 ft wingspan? Make that 30 feet away for peripheral vision. If its 25 ft then the planes too small, yes?
thanks for the info btw
:D
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Originally posted by tactic
Put the icons on the good guys (your country), And no, none, zilch, zip zero icons , None at all on the bad guys (the other country). No iconie on zee red guys. That would be interesting! They just get in my way, throw me off sometimes, because they distract me! :p I dont care if i know what im flying against. as soon as they ripp by you'll know what it is if you know your planes. If you dont know them real good by sight (like me), oh well, just hope you know how to fly the plane your in. icon smicon pssft!
Ta da! There that fixes that!. done! ** dusts hands off(()))
Generally, I would say i like this idea... Flew in a Snapshot once, with icons off. Only way to tell a friendly from a con was the historical plane setting. Never knew what it was until up close and personal... or if the friendly on your six wouldnt shoot ya. GREAT FUN!
Now comes the big BUT. Theres also people that just started playing this game. Theyd be lost without at least some form of identification of an enemy plane. I mean it does make a difference if your fighting a Pony or a Zeke. I remeber my first weeks as trying to remeber what can a typhie do? turn with me (Spit)? no. big guns though and fast. and a 109? omg, you never know with those, depends on model. hmmmmm. I dont know if id been able to tell them apart visually. dont think so.
This game already has a difficult learning curve if your new to sims. Dont make it impossible.
As goes for the new icon system. I dont really care. makes not much difference to me. just the first time i saw a seafire up close and personal, i took so long to identify the icon as a spitIIC, that the guy was alredy on my six guns blazing. and that c2 thingi is strange. but does it matter?
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Ren All things are realative, They are the correct size in AH.
If you take a 90 deg angle (45 each side of eye), stand 15 ft away from a 30 ft wing span airplane. Each wing will just touch the sides of the angle.
In AH set up the exact same test and each wing would just touch the side of the screen.
HiTech
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HiTech
Alright. I got that.
To what extent does pixel size play a role with regard to distance then?
For example, a B-17 is a pixel dot. In rl its a pixel dot and not a small shape of a buff?
It's like being at 4k in yer plane. You look down and without a doubt you see the difference between cars and trucks. You may not be able to correctly ID a particular model. Then again they are beginning to look very much alike :). And I bet you could correctly ID a Scion from 4k alt. A shoebox is a shoebox is a showbox at any alt :).
I guess what Im asking is why is there so much of a difference between RL and virtual pixels in the game? I remember as we got more pixels jammed in into a given resolution the buffs actual had a sihouette from a llil farther out. However at some distance it still becomes a one pixel dot.
I also remember you could go out an buy a 1024X or even a HiDef projector but really see much difference. If you blew up the picture on a wall or 100 inch screen you just got a bigger dot (one pixel) at the same distance so you really didn't get much benefit until a plane got closer. Even then, you really need to get closer to the wall to get any benefit. I grabbed one from my office and took it home around 6 years ago. If you got the screen size larger than around 4 ft diagonal all you got was huge pixels and no definition.
Whats the solution? Better graphics cards/monitors? Heck, our old Marine A4M Skyhawk sim built in the '60's had had mirrors and screens that gave you pretty lifelike (and large) images of Mig 17's. And even with high closure rates on a saddle up when that Mig got close he really filled the windscreen. And I really mean BIG!
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Opps, forgot one thing....(must be getting old)
There had to be a reason for binocs in the game.
They weren't used to ID planes during WW2. Unless you were a ground based plane spotter. Oh yeah, they could ID a silhouette for some plane at 5-10k using binocs.
Bandaid?
Don't get me wrong anyone can get used to anything. Does that make it right? I regularly show folks how to determine an enemy planes attitude at ranges inside around 2.5k yds. And especially at thoses ranges without icon distances you can only tell silhouette position and not if there is closure or expanding distance. Outside that range we're pretty much back to pixel dots. Or is there no real fix? Alternatively, if there is nothing wrong...please explain.
IMHO I'd love to be able to get up and only be able to tell enemy planes by their markings and silhouettes, not icons. While game play would be more difficult the "sense of immersion" would be huge. And with that immersion it's pretty easy to see how the sky would empty completely inside a few minutes as in RL when you really gotta be looking at what that other guys doing.
You'd have to dump radar too. Imagine getting up and actually be looking for the baddies. Wooo Hooo.
Pity an experiment couldn't be attempted in the CT or where ever with just that setup. No DAR, maps would show fields, no plane icons of any kind, just some sort of country marking on nose or tail that could be distinguishable from say 3k, maybe 4k distance. You don't have to go so far as to limit a countries planes to a type (like one side gets german planes and another gets US or Russian planes) just have a country ID color or something.
Thanks again
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They did the no dar experiment in CT. It was a miserable failure because no one could find fights.
and CT has also (still?) used shorter ranged icons, 3k or less. this is *also* one reason why the CT has such low #'s.
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Shane,
Perhaps changes as I noted above would make it work. We are not taking the same scenario that you described. Close but not the same. Also, any AH map is the equivalent of the whole pacific ocean! If you plan to use a map that size plan on spending time looking for enemy forces.
Guess what?....in the war they looked around for a while for enemy planes.
If ya just wanna furball create a furball arena. Surprisingly , that's been done before in other sims and it got around the same number of daily follks as the CT does now. Hmmm, it's same for DA. Not many but another place for folks to hang yer hat.
IMHO the CT is used by folks that don't want to deal with the large numbers and SA required to fly and fight in the MA. They are two different animals.
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But this is a *game* - and we have scenarios for those who want to waste a lot of time flying around looking for action.
not all the CT maps are big-azzed. this has been tried on a variety of CT maps, all with the same result.
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Originally posted by Shane
But this is a *game* - and we have scenarios for those who want to waste a lot of time flying around looking for action.
not all the CT maps are big-azzed. this has been tried on a variety of CT maps, all with the same result.
It pains me to say this... BUT - Shane is 100% right on this one.
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Getting in a fight with anything else is kind of tough though, since as soon as they see your icon saying "109F" after you evade their first clumsy newb pass, they level out and leave.
i like to be lured into a quite corner by a 109F . And than eat the silly plane,
F is yummy yummy
:)
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I agree Shane is right....from his point of view.
I, too, have flown the CT with is 3k Dar range and small maps and have had absolutley no trouble finding the enemy or a fight.
My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above.
The current setup is used to allow you to play a certain way using the tools provided by the game.
If the setup allowed different views you may be able play this game completely differently.
Right now Shane is looking at this from his point of view as to what he has experienced so far. What IF he began the game as a new player today. AND, the game didn't have icons or dar and you had to hunt around to find the bad guys. Then when you saw one you had to ID them before you shot them?
If that's all you ever began with and all you ever knew about the game then that's how you'd play it. Right now he is calling on the experiences he's already had playing the game as its evolved. Not what it could be. So his opinions are strictly based on his experience.
There's a submarine game that's been around for a number of years that people have played. While its not my cup of java think about how long it might be before someone actually saw a ship on the ocean?
Is a different type of game play possible in AH2? I think so. Whacha think TOD is gonna be? Read the reviews in online sim mags.
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IMO TOD is gonna be a big CT... I dont plan to play it anymore than I fly in the CT. The "realism guys" are beginning to ruin gameplay here with things like this icon system (I preferred the system from 2 years ago), the fuel burn multiplier and a few other items have made gameplay far less fun than it was then.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
What IF he began the game as a new player today. AND, the game didn't have icons or dar and you had to hunt around to find the bad guys. Then when you saw one you had to ID them before you shot them?
.
I would think that Shane the newbie would download the game, fly around for a while, find nothing to shoot at. Say "This game is pretty lame." Leave and never come back.
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This is all a moot disagreement IMO.
If you're good enough to fly differently based on the type of aircraft chasing you, chances are, you're good enough to know what you're flying against without the icon's help.
If you're NOT good enough to fly differently based on the type of aircraft chasing you, then you aren't good enough to tell what you're flying against without icon's help.
In other words, the only people that really care that the plane they are chasing is a G-10 instead of an E, are the ones who could have been able to tell it visually anyway. The rest of us see a red icon and just start praying.
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My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above
Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
HiTech
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HiTech
Two last questions as this is very good information...
Without rehashing size, let me first sumarize you previosly noted 30 ft = 30 with field of view, etc....
Close up size is modelled very acurately.
At what point in space (that enemy plane out there in the distance) does the aircraft size actually get out of kilter (appear smaller than a RL view of same). 400 yards? 500? 1000?
As you stated, its impossible "create" the same eyeball views we have on a monitor. That means the trade off, due to the monitor, where zoom is required is at what distance?
Perhaps Im asking the same question twice, only differently?
Ren
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Until such time as a monitor, when viewed at a comfortable distance, completely fills your entire field of view, ideally being a slightly concave display to fill in the peripheral, there's not really even a decent compromise to deal with 1 pixel dots versus plane silhouettes (okay, nothing better than what we currently have, anyway). The default zoom giving a better relative feel for size while limiting peripheral vision is the ultimate proof of this.
While I enjoy some of the realism stuff, citing pilots being able to identify other aircraft during wartime can't bear all that much relevance in here. I seriously doubt that during the war someone had to determine whether he had 2 190Es, or 2 G10s, or 1 of each, and whether the typhoon was really a tempest, and whether his wingman was in a Niki, Dora, or hurricane (mk 1, maybe a late mk 1 with 12 303s instead of 8, or a hispano hurri), and whether the second nearby friendly was in a spitV, or a XIV, etc etc. These, and many other planes, all went through changes and upgrades, and certain planes never saw ETO or PTO action, and some did very little at all, and some appeared only in the early years of the war, and some late. I'll bet just about any pilot who survived combat knew damned well what he was facing in a given theater at any particular time. Denying us that ability by hiding specific types through generic icons just seems wrong.
And, having flown now for quite a few hours with the new icon setup, I don't really think its made that big a difference in the way I fly, or even in the ways others fly. Chances are, once someone gets a positive ID on you, its far too late to do anything but fight or run like hell. Did you really have any other options prior to that?
Also, having flown in SEA events, even with 200 ppl on, you can still fly for 2 hours and not see another con. No Dar and No icons is attrociously boring. Even before radar was prevalent, there would have been ground spotters, and recce pilots, and relevant useful radio chatter to keep you informed regarding planes in a given area, how many friendlies were up and about, etc. Our simple dar system both approximates the information we'd have been furnished with, at least in part, and also greatly improves gameplay. Realism, in small doses, is fine, but gameplay is what keeps HiTech's customers around.
Anyhow, this is waaay too long winded, I'm gonna go eat some ice cream.
Cheers,
hub
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
And, having flown now for quite a few hours with the new icon setup, I don't really think its made that big a difference in the way I fly, or even in the ways others fly. Chances are, once someone gets a positive ID on you, its far too late to do anything but fight or run like hell. Did you really have any other options prior to that? Cheers,
hub
I agree with the customer base thingy you mentioned. The last thing any of us players wants to is push people away. I mean, who ya gonna kill if they all disappear from the arena!
By the same token, If you know, at a glance, what yer up against then you know exactly how yer gonna shoot them down without thinking about it.
However, if yer chasing what you thought was tiffie and it's really a tempie then you wouldn't waste time on him in a co start race.
So knowing a particular plane type is very important on how you'd go about attacking him.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
:mad: Dont like this... Now everyone knows my A8 isnt really a D9
Wow....
Luckily for me I fly the Ki-61....it always heys confused with.....
the Ki-61.....
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It never is smaller than in real life.
Near or far makes no differences, it all has to do with view angle.
But what is different is the amount of detail do to pixels on the screen that you can see on the aircraft.
To calc an object size in pixels use the following. Btw did it off top of my head, so hoping the calc is correct.
((Wingspan / DistanceAway) / tan(FOV/2) ) * (ScreenWidth / 2) = Number Of pixels.
So in my 30ft wing & 15ft dist with 90 deg FOV
(30 / 15 * (1024 / 2)) / 1 = 1024 I.E. entire screen
At aprox yards the plane is now 1 pixel across on the scree.
At 1200 yards the plane is only 4 pixels in size, now the problem is you can't see any detail with only 4 pixels on a computer screen.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Wotan
A Spit IX at 2k is a different fight then a Spit V at 2k. So is a Spit V at 15k different then a IX at 15k. There are noticeable performance differences that become evident once the fight is joined.
These same types of differences can be seen in other plane types like the 109 variants for example.
Folks who have flown for a while can pick out these differences without an icon. Once the fight is on then most folks will fly the same way, the way they are most comfortable with. What the icons do is allow them to pick the exact plane they wish to fight and avoid the ones that might be a bit tougher. 'Spit V nope, FM2 nope, ok here it is sucker in a P-40B...'
HT hasn't said that the new icons were in response to make perk icons fair. In fact previously he has said he made the perk icons that way so they would stand out and so they would be 'ganged'. I can quote his old post on that if there's doubt.
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you will see even less.
While you may go after any enemy that's closest the majority of players in AH are not Levi. As I said the 'horde' follows the path of least resistance. That's why you see the hordes in the first place.
But as long as the majority are having fun who cares...
Personally, I thought the original beta AH2 icons were perfect...
Hmmmm....
I could care less what "flavor" the other guy is in...good ACM is good ACM....obviously you might adjust a bit 109F vs G10 (as example)....but not much. Only to the degree your worried about him running away.
Personally I think plane type is greatly overrated vs other variables...
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In RL a pilot only had to ID the planes silouette or shape from a distance and then decide if it was a model plane that the enemy flew. "Hmmm, looks like a 109, think I'll go kill it" Certainly there were some mistakes, but one thing I know is they didn't need to wait to read the markings on the plane see if the 109 was British, American, or German (read Nit, Bish, or Rook). Thus no Icons would only work in the CT. So I think the icon system is also a way of compensating for every plane being available for every side in the MA, along with many other reasons already mentioned.
For what it's worth, I like the new system. I've also seen more F4U4s lately than I've seen in a year. I killed about half of them, which means they are engaging more than before the new icon system was in place. BTW, does the Ta152 morph from an FW190 or does it still have it's own icon?
Magoo
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
IMHO the CT is used by folks that don't want to deal with the large numbers and SA required to fly and fight in the MA. They are two different animals.
Yes, they are two different animals but no I don't like the CT because I don't have the SA to fly in the MA. Hell, I don't have the SA to fly anywere for that matter :) It's the historical matchups and necessary honing of skills in planes that are less than perfect. I sure don't see too many emils flying around in the MA :p
I understand you were being slightly sarcastic but I've got a glass jaw :)
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My bad. I sorry Plank...I was being sarcastic and apologize. :eek:
I think one of the reasons for the CT is for just for the reasons you mentioned. Not everyone eats pork and beans so ya gotta have a bigger menu at the resturaunt. Likewise, they AH2 offers different arenas so you have a choice of flying styles. Not bad if ya ask me.
So, as long as you're having fun that's what counts. If ya want a primer on SA and what not please feel free to shoot me an email for some chat sessions. :)
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
IMHO the CT is used by folks that don't want to deal with the large numbers and SA required to fly and fight in the MA. They are two different animals.
Probably there's a kernel of truth in this. For example, CT people are not very skilled in figuring out which runway to pick in order to avoid the greatest number of vulchers. Also, CT flyers generally lose count when the number of enemy planes following them exceeds four. And I have often noticed that CT regulars are absolutely bewildered by enemies who refuse to engage.
- oldman
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Bah, no worries Ren. Like I said, I've got a glass jaw.
And I'll take anyone's offer for a training session, I can always use it :aok
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Probably there's a kernel of truth in this. For example, CT people are not very skilled in figuring out which runway to pick in order to avoid the greatest number of vulchers.
- oldman
Hmmmmmm......This CT thing might be worth a closer look. ROFL
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I wanted to clarify my previous comments concerning ZERO Icons:
First, I feel it would be useful only when you have Historical planesets (which I tend to fly as much as I can) or in H2H FFA.
Second There is a new setting in AHII that allows you to set the "FullIconRange" from 24000 to 1. I set mine to 1 so nobody sees the extra icon information. This will explain why you might see this information at different distances in different arenas
I agree that numbers in any particular arena are not indicative of anything. Different strokes for different folks. I applaud HiTech for the variety offered to everyone. I personally do not like arenas stuffed to the gills with "spray and pray" types in only 2 or three different types of planes.
I prefer the smaller "Historical" or "Reality" based arenas where the radar, ammo and planesets are limited. I used to fly the CT reguarly and had some good times there. I have since gone to Free Multiplayer only, which are limited to only 8 peoples at a time and I have have a great time there. Once again I applaud HiTech for allowing people this option.
I am presently running an "Allied versus Axis" arena with the settings as real as I can get (no outside view, stall limiter off, limited radar ranges and altitudes and limited fuel and ammo, bases only flash for vehicles and boats , etc). One of the requests I have, is the ability as a CM to turn Icons on or off or shorten their range either for friendly or enemy or both. I flew "Scenerios" when I was in WB (long ago) which had no icons or very short icons and it was A LOT of fun and very enlightening.
I hope AHII will eventually allow CM's the ability to change Icon settings and will also someday set up an arena that is based on more Historical settings like no outside views, limited radar, short or no icon ranges, limited ammo, no flashing bases for fighters and bombers etc. Not everyone would fly this arena but those that did would enjoy it very much.
I miss this type of arena and would return to being a paying customer if one were available.
P.S. I disagree that MA flyers have better SA than CT flyers. I would propose that MA flyers on average have worse SA than CT flyers. There are a lot more inexperienced flyers in MA than there were in the CT. MA flyers are more of the instant gratification mindset and less of SA, Strategy or Realistic mindset, this explains the reason the CT had smaller numbers. To MA'ers it is merely a game of kill or get killed as fast as you can.
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"P.S. I disagree that MA flyers have better SA than CT flyers. I would propose that MA flyers on average have worse SA than CT flyers. There are a lot more inexperienced flyers in MA than there were in the CT. MA flyers are more of the instant gratification mindset and less of SA, Strategy or Realistic mindset, this explains the reason the CT had smaller numbers. To MA'ers it is merely a game of kill or get killed as fast as you can."
Actually Dktr, you have it backwards. The higher number of people flying around requires your SA be much better than that of the small numbers you find in the CT. Being able to look at the "big picture" and weed out threat v non-threat is much more difficult with the numbers in a large multiplayer arena and thats a historical fact and has been that way for the past 12 years that
I've been playing on-line WW2 flight sims.
That is one of the reasons those with lower SA gravitate to the CT so they can enjoy themselves with the less pressure of "never letting your guard down for an instant in the combat area". Hmmmm, come to think of it that's kinda historicakky accurate too :) In the war they never let their guard down or they died for it.
Now take two aspirins and ca.....never mind.
:D
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SA is SA no matter how many planes are around. You either have it/use it or you don't.
Saying you have "better" SA just because you fly amongst larger numbers is not necessarily a true statment. As a matter of fact, good SA would tell you NOT to fly into a large number of enemy fighters unless absolutely necessary or unless your in a game and you want quick "spray and pray" action for the few seconds/minutes you will be alive.
You can still fly among larger numbers and have terrible SA and many do. Not everyones SA improves in your "large numbers environment" simply because, not everyone seeks to improve it.
One of the reasons I am requesting more realistic environments is to show how important it is to be aware of what is around you at all times. In WB's I was able to "jump" many pilots because they were in "friendly" airspace many miles from enemy lines and there was no reason to check your six or worry about SA so close to home.
I was also able to get many kills because the lack of unlimited radar and outside views did not give pilots the SA crutch of dots on the map and "outside view early warning" from miles away.
I know what you are thinking, I just proved your point, but the same kills are being made 10 times over in the MA even with the outside views and Radar covering the entire map.
Assuming someone that flys in a low numbers environment has terrible SA is a big mstake. It's not the environment but the individual that determines SA skills. You won't find me going into a situation where I am greatly outnumbered because there is no point to it. I will pick my battles and I will maintain SA the whole time I'm in the air.
I would venture to say that your expert MA SA flyers would avoid a realistic setting arena like the plague because it would be too "boring" not to be able to fly into throngs of enemy fighters within 5 seconds of entering the arena.
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I think the ICON system should be based on your personal knowlege of each plane. Everyone should be given a test before they log in maybe once a month. Where they have to ID types of planes based on unmarked drawings. Then based on your test score, you will be able to ID the planes that you recognized in the test, while still keeping the 1000 yard limit or whatever it is. That way maybe people will actually want to learn about the fighters.
Actually its a dumb idea for arena play. Nevermind I said anything. :D
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FOR AUCTION: One set of WW2 Airplane Silhouette Playing Cards.
And the bidding starts at......
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol
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Originally posted by BigR
Actually its a dumb idea for arena play. Nevermind I said anything. :D
Ok...:)