Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: terracota on March 07, 2001, 10:10:00 AM
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oh well the subject says it all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ok I fly the dhog, when I have better E not big deal, if I less or equal E than nikis, damn is where everything starts to get worst.
I cant use angles tactics because niks turns like hell, cant use E tactics because run like hell and climb so good, so how the hell I should fly against niks? I cant figth I cant scape damn what should I do?
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First, post for 4 months how porked the guns are, then how porked the FM is and the ability of it holding E (make sure you have no data to back this claim up with)...then...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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easy terracota, only engage it if you have altitude or plenty of built speed which you can convert to an advantage for you. Otherwise drag him to your squadie, escape by using your speed advantage..etc... This is of coarse if you deem the pilot is decent and knows half of what he is doing. If he is very new or just not that good, shoot him down and do him a favor and send him to the traing forum (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This comes from a dedicated P-47 pilot, So I know what I am talking about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Well, to be honest if you engage a plane that is a decent E fighter, with a plane that is also an E fighter, you should expect to lose if you don't start with an E advantage. That's like saying "How can I beat a Zero if I turnfight him with a P-40?" Without some kind of energy advantage or the other pilot making a mistake, you can't expect to win.
What can you do to survive and gain an advantage? Stay fast, very fast. Keep enough separation and speed to be able to disengage. The F4U is much faster than the N1k, so it can disengage at will. Simply make a pass on him, then if you are at a disadvantage, 0G dive to high speed and extend. You should then be able to climb at a higher speed than he can, and come back with an E advantage. You must be patient, but it can be done.
I find nothing uber about the N1k. It's no more dangerous to me in my Jug as a Spit IX. Indeed, the Spit I fear more because it has a very high possible dive speed that makes it harder for me to escape. The N1k is just a very good all-around dogfighter at low altitudes. If you engage a plane like that without some kind of advantage, you should expect to get killed. The N1k's biggest strength is it's fantastic acceleration and good guns. Stay outside of D 1.1 and DO NOT try to rope-a-dope him. The N1k zooms very well from even low speeds and can hang on it's prop for a long time. Do not get slow with an N1k, ever. It's great acceleration and good low speed handling will get you killed. Keep your speed up and use vertical moves and lag pursuit to stay with him without slowing down too much.
Nope, the N1k is no big deal IMHO. I fly a Jug, so the F4U-1D is very similar in many respects, and I think you can use the same tactics. In fact, the Hog is pretty much superior to my Jug in almost every way, and I'd fear your F4U-1D far more than any N1k. I can run from the N1k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Have to agree with ammo and Lepht, stay fast and come with an advantage or don't even both trying to engage. The N1K is a great low speed performer, better than a Spit in my opinion. You should always be able to escape and your high speed handling should be better (very high speed). Getting a .50cal snap shot on him might not do a whole lot so your chances to get the kill aren't that great against a good N1K pilot.
You should try engaging a N1K in a Spit, my favorite ride. He can out-turn you, out accelerate you, climb with you step for step, has twice the cannons with twice the ammo, and you can't run away unless you are above about 13K feet... at least in a D-Hog you can run (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Soda
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1 word: dont.
I have powerdived to beyond compression and that damn ufo still closes on me on the dive. Spraying all the way down. *sigh*
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I've never had a problem Tac. I can disengage at will from a George in my Jug. They are just not that fast. As long as you don't get slow with them, you should be able to escape. If you get slow though, they are going to catch you in the early part and eat you alive.
In tours 11, 12, and 13 I was killed by the N1k2 wile flying the Jug.... 3 times. Once per tour. I was only killed by it one other time, and then I was flying the F6F5. I nailed it 13 times in those three tours also. I've only died two ways to the George, either they sneak up on me in a furball at low alt, or I under-estimate their zoom and they nail me when I try to rope them.
Nah, the dangerous planes are Hogs, Ponys, and G10s. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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I once got into a turn fight with duma. He in a D, me in a nik. I think I won, but it was luck as much as anything. Ive flown the nik on a regular basis since its introduction. So I don't think im a newbi to the plane. My point is. If you learn how, you can t n b in the D.
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I also agree with Lephturn. Don't ever try to turn fight with it. Maybe stay with it for 1 turn but that's it. Usually I go for the snapshot and extend. The F4U has terrific high speed handling so just nose her over and go for the deck hitting 500 mph. Most other planes are also faster than the NIK but it's the acceleration that'll kill you. If you get slow and try to disengage too late the NIK will turn on you, accelerate and catch you. Boom, out go the lights. With the F4Us superior speed, if you manage your energy carefully, you should not have a problem.
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"...You should try engaging a N1K in a Spit, my favorite ride. He can out-turn you..."
I thought the AH data showed the Spit (V or IX?) had a better substained turn rate?
I fly mostly Spits and Niks and find in long turn fights that degenerate to stall speeds, that the Spit usually wins out...right or wrong?
bowser
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I say the spit wins in sustained flat turns. Where the N1k will kill you is using the vertical. If he is smart he'll go vertical and "out turn" you that way.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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ok this is 1 example:
yesterday I dived from 10k to a vh, I achived about 500mph when finished my jabo, an enemy nik was there at about 2k he followed me and killed me (remember I was at about 500 mph)
???????????????????
Im too far from any friendly help so I have to figth or die (extend?)....
what the hell should I do?
the dhog faster??? no way. the niks allways catch me ,I dive at 0 gs and my plane very well trimmed so????????????????
Im dieing terrible against niks
and the dhog better speed dont helps me, what the hell Im doing wrong??????
any tactic works here against niks
btw i can have a duel ... I dhog the other nik maybe this way you can see what im doing wrong please mail me at alexm@comtelca.hn
please excuse my poor english
now Im just flying H2H because my income dont let me be at main arena, I hope to be again soon there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
terra
[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 03-07-2001).]
[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by terracota:
the dhog faster??? no way. the niks allways catch me ,I dive at 0 gs and my plane very well trimmed
Sounds like the niki is out-accelerating you, which means your letting yourself get too slow to start with. Keep it as fast as possible and he wont touch ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lepht, the problem is the n1k will go with you on the power dive all the way down, if you ever do anything as much as climb or level and try to run the n1k will catch up and kill you.
P-38 has no chance whatsoever against a n1k. its HO or find someone else to kill you to not give the n1k the kill.
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Tac,
I fly a Jug, significantly slower than the top speed planes in the game like the 51 and the F4U. I have never been caught by a N1k, as I said I can disengage at will. Heck, if I keep my speed high I can even out-climb them... yes in a Jug. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I can slowly climb at a speed that is above the N1k's top level speed given the right altitude.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/n1k2.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/n1k2.html)
See that big notch at 12k? I use that if I can. Any mechanically driven supercharged plane has this notch where it shifts from low gear to high gear.
Lets compare that to a few other planes. Right-click the links and choose "open in new window" and you can then arrange them side by side for easy comparison.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/f4u1d.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/f4u1d.html) http://www.hitechcreations.com/p47d30.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/p47d30.html) http://www.hitechcreations.com/p38l.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/p38l.html)
The F4U-1D is faster than the N1k at all altitudes, some of the time without even using WEP.
Now as a Jug driver, I have to be a bit careful. As you can see, around 7k the N1k under WEP is very good. So, I just need to either take him up over 10k, or drop to the deck and check out. The Jug under WEP is a bit slower than the chart for some reason in AH, so I have to be even more careful not to play at the N1k's best altitudes.
Tac, I don't know where the P38 came into this, up until now I have been talking about the F4U-1D primarly, and I brought the Jug into it because it's what I have experience with. But, since you mentioned it, lets take a look at the 38. Since the 38 is also Turbosupercharged, it has a nice smooth curve very much like the Jug, however it is not quite as fast overall. It can be done, but the 38 driver must be pretty careful. You either want to be slammed on the deck or at 12k to be sure to outrun him, but it can be done. The benefit to the P-38 is that it is the best accelerator in the allied plane set. Not as good as the George, but it's good enough that it won't get eaten alive as badly during low-speed acceleration. I also notice that up to about 3-4k, the P-38 will outclimb the N1k. Over that, I wouldn't count on it, but there is something there to work with.
As you can see, the N1k is no super plane. You can outrun it, so long as you pay attention to what altitude you are at. The real key here is not to mis-judge it's E state. If he is hiding his E as speed at lower altitudes, you can often be surprised and caught. However, the charts tell the tale, the N1k2 George can be out-run by most of the planes we talked about. My experience backs this up. If you think the N1k2 is fater than that, please test the plane in AH and post if it's faster than the charts show. However, I think if that was the case we would have heard about it by now.
These are simply the facts. If your experience doesn't match the facts, I submit that you misjudged the N1k2's E state. The only other option is that the planes in the game do not match the charts. That is possible, but they are likely really close. If you feel there is a discrepancy, you should run some tests of the N1k2 and compare them to the charts. If there is a discrepancy, I'm sure it's something HTC will look into. No matter what happens, you'll learn something about the N1k2.
Terracota I would be glad to work with you in the F4U vs. the N1k2. I think the best guys I know to do this would likely be Jinx, Duckwing6, or one of the other D-Hog experts, but I can do a good enough job at running away in any case. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Lephy, bowser,
As an very experienced Spit stick I can tell you that the N1K can out-turn it no problem. Infact, when the fight gets slow it will easily out flat-turn a SpitIX and slowly out-turn a SpitV. I've had many a SpitV hanging there at stall and have the N1K pulling around behind. If the N1K drops some flaps that slow he can totally humiliate a Spit in turn. No doubts, been there and had it happen many times.
In the vertical the N1K will beat both also, it can hang there on the prop and with all that ammo for the cannons it can just spray in the air from below you.. scary.
I hate N1K's, but that's because it's hard to beat them in my favorite ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I find the best way to beat them is to get them high or BnZ them with my Spit, never TnB with them.
-Soda
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I find all the talk about nik,s kinda funny. It is my favorite target. I cant remember the last time I lost a 1 v 1 against another nik. To point out some old, and very good, advice. If you are having trouble with a plane, fly it. Not just for a sortie or two. But for at least, a week. By the end of that time, you will have a real good idea what its weakness,s are. The nik has many.
I was having trouble with the G10. So I did this. My first sortie, I got 13 kills. That really got my attention. So I stayed with it for a couple weeks. Bit, by bit I would get killed, this way and that. Seeing how I was killed showed me the weakness,s of the G10 .
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Interesting Soda.
I would guess it's due to the George's great power plant generating enough speed to keep it at a better turning speed.
Hmmm, didn't think it turned that well. Oh well, I've never turned with it anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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ok I cheked the performance charts,
so I should try to take the nik up maybe at 15K?
thanks for help to all
terra
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easymo, that's exactly what I've done, I agree, best to know your enemy to beat him. I'm pretty good against N1K's since I understand them better now and fly a specific way against them in order to win. Still, if I get caught Co-E with one, it's going to be a tough battle if the N1K pilot is any good since there are very few tricks to use since the N1K is better in almost every performance category.
The N1K runs outta power up high, though it still appears to turn, climb and accelerate well. The top speed doesn't increase nearly as much though. I ran some tests (really rough results) at one point to test a problem I was having with N1K's. My old tactic was to dive away and try to escape on the deck in a SpitIX yet they would easily catch me even though they started Co-E. The results were surprising, at 0K the N1K held a 20mph advantage, at 10K it was a dead heat, at 15K the Spit held at 25 mph advantage. So, diving away isn't the greatest idea for a Spit unless you are already packing extra E, but in that case you can probably escape level. I like the way Zigrat put it to me one time when we saw a N1K at 22K. "Wow, here's an easy kill, what the hell is he doing way up here."
Lepht, I think you are correct on the power idea, the N1K can hang there really well, better than a Spit. The N1K is the worst nightmare for a Spit driver. The N1K is fearsome slow and low, all those cannons make for death if they land. It can also pull those totally bizarre vertical maneuvers with little or no speed and seem to pick up E, where the Spit can try the same thing and lose E. I hate N1K's more than C-Hogs since they tend to be more dangerous to me, but part of that has to do with my choice of ride. Most things can run from a N1K fairly easily.
Don't turn with a N1K unless you are in a Zero.... it's easy to fall into the trap in a Spit.
-Soda
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I flew the n1k quite a lot in H2H and many a time during last tour.
Only "weakness" (if you could call it that) is that it cant dive with "THE" premier "dive to run" planes (P-51, P-47, Yak). Aside from that, theres no more. Ive had my 400 mph P38 dive past a n1k which had turned to evade me and I've kept going down to escape... the n1k always catches up. I dont see a way out. If anyone has one, let me know, im practicing my HO skills and Alt-F4 strokes during this time. =P
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ha ha ha ha ha Tac, nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You know what, I actually got to the point where I would try and auger the N1K in defense. Quite seriously, I'd try and get up just enough speed that I knew we'd both be blacked out and then try and loop right to the ground and just pull up in time. It actually worked for the poorer N1K pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It was a little more effective than Alt-F4.
The true runners can get away pretty easily in a dive, but I'm sure the P-38 has the same sorts of troubles with the N1K as the Spit does. The Spit and P-38 are both pretty damn fine planes in their own way, just the N1K is better than them both in almost every way. Those damn weak elevators on the P-38 must be quick work for N1K cannons too.
Another beauty to pull on the N1K is to hammer on the brakes in a P38 and roll around trying to get the overshoot. Had this work once or twice in H2H, dive, drop flap, speed brakes, cut throttle and barrel roll hoping he overshoots without hitting me from behind. I even dropped the gear once to help slow down though it ripped off.
-Soda
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Anybody who overshoots anything, while flying a nik, Is to dumb to live. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Just a note guys....
Try this stuff again in 1.06. With the new compression model, transsonic drag, and high speed buffeting, you may not see those N1k2's following you into compression anymore by flying the trim keys. I chased a George last night in a P51B and he tried to dive away. He compressed and made a big smoking hole in the ground. Muhahahaha.
Time to test those escape moves again, I think they are going to work even better. No more will that G-10 follow you down at 450 Mph by flying with trim... at least not from what I've seen so far.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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The buffetting has REALLY eliminated ufo dives and spraying.
Hurray HTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But gawdangint, I still cant dive and run from a n1k, they still catch me before I compress (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)