Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Halo on February 20, 2005, 09:25:32 AM
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Have always wondered why the P-47 guns are staggered. Most wing guns have their muzzles aligned straight across.
Looks snazzy, but is there any advantage to staggering gun barrel alignment?
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It might have something to do with belt feeding 8 guns.
But that's just my non-googled guess.
-Sik
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In order to keep the guns close together and feed/eject the ammo, they were staggered. Look at the nose of the P-38 and you'll see that the guns in it are staggered as well.
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Sikboy is right, it has to do with the feeding gunbelts.
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Huh, makes sense, and improves the aesthetics too. Thanks.
Which of course makes me wonder why seemingly most comparable contemporary fighters did not use that feed design, e.g., Hellcat, Mustang, Warhawk, early Spit and Hurri.
Or if they did, it was not reflected in protruding staggered muzzles.
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D Mustangs did have a staggered design. I can post some photos if you'd like. The B Mustangs also had a staggered configuration. Spitfire Mk 1s had a staggered design. So did the Spitfire Mk VB and VC with 20mm and brownings. The F6Fs had a staggered design and so did the P-47s. The P-40Es though not staggered like the usual configuration did have the center gun mounted slightly higher on each wing. The P-40Ds did actually mount one M-2 slightly aft of the other two guns.
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I Googled around trying to snag more info, but pictures of open gun bays are not easy to find.
Did see small pic of early F-4F .50s and one of early Spit .303s that showed their machineguns also were staggered or offset -- they normally look even only because their muzzles don't protrude from the edge of the wing.
So as several of you have said, staggered or offset appears to be the norm, not the exception.
And I guess none appear more formidable than the dramatic angle of the eight .50s on the P-47s.
Unless it's eight .50s in the nose of an A-26, modeled so far only in ancient Air Warrior.
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B-25J's had 12 forward fireing .50's not includeing if the top gunner has his gun turned forwards also,14 .50's woooWEE!
18 .50's on one bomber...:aok
http://www.photovault.com/Link/Military/AirForce/show.asp?tg=MYFVolume15/MYFV15P11_12
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This is not a high quality drawing, but you can see that the four belts are staggered.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/hbenkesh/clip_image002.jpg)
Regards.
Cement1
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And how many yards long was the average belt?????? Thats where the term I gave e'm the whole 9 yards came from.
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Originally posted by bustr
And how many yards long was the average belt?????? Thats where the term I gave e'm the whole 9 yards came from.
Quite possibly a myth.
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Supposedly true, i.e., each belt of .50 cal was 27 feet or 9 yards long.
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Whole Nine Yards (http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/nineyards.htm)
Take yer pick.
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/50belt.JPG)
Looks like there's 13 rounds per foot in a belt of .50. Therefore, 27 feet would equal about 350 rounds. That's not a real common ammo loadout. A couple of the guns in the P-51B used a 350 round belt, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
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My apology,
I suckered myself into to that myth. I remembered from a hand book in one of the offline simms like Aces over the Pacific. It was a caption to a picture of an allied plane being rearmed. Sorry not the best source for historical data.
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I did a search for the expression, there are many sources for it , but where aircraft are concerned this one is used the most to explain it:
Michael Nunamaker writes that a friend of his in the U.S. Air Force suggested a World War II origin: "According to him, the length of the ammunition belt (feeding the machine guns) in the Supermarine Spitfire was nine yards. Therefore, when a pilot had shot all his ammunition he would say he had 'shot the whole nine yards'."
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Hi Toad,
>Whole Nine Yards (http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/nineyards.htm)
In German, only a three-masted ship flying square sails on all nine yardarms is a "whole ship".
With the great British (and American) naval tradition, dollars to dimes that's the concept behind the phrase.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Pyro your ruler is upside down ;)
Originally posted by Pyro
Looks like there's 13 rounds per foot in a belt of .50. Therefore, 27 feet would equal about 350 rounds.
but with 0.303 ? what will it give ?
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The P51s did use feed belts, but their guns were designed different. Where all 6/8 .50cals in the Jug were the same gun and needed to be staggered to allow each belt to feed, the BStang had 4 different .50cal guns in them. Each desinged to be in a certain spot on the plane. For instance, the left outside wing gun feed in slightly further back and from its left than the left inside wing gun. Conversely, the right outside wing gun feed in from the right/forward. This allowed for the muzzles to be flush with the front of the wing
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Originally posted by JB42
The P51s did use feed belts, but their guns were designed different. Where all 6/8 .50cals in the Jug were the same gun and needed to be staggered to allow each belt to feed, the BStang had 4 different .50cal guns in them. Each desinged to be in a certain spot on the plane. For instance, the left outside wing gun feed in slightly further back and from its left than the left inside wing gun. Conversely, the right outside wing gun feed in from the right/forward. This allowed for the muzzles to be flush with the front of the wing
Do you have a source for that? I have to say that it sounds highly improbable to me. The major benefit of the .50 M2 is that it was standardised - apart from being convertible between left and right feed, the examples of each version were the same.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion
forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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i odnt know what i find cooler, the fact that pyro has over a foot of .50's laying around the house, or that he got a pic of a foot up that quick LOL
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Toad,
>Whole Nine Yards (http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/nineyards.htm)
In German, only a three-masted ship flying square sails on all nine yardarms is a "whole ship".
With the great British (and American) naval tradition, dollars to dimes that's the concept behind the phrase.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
It is "Ship-rigged" = 3 masts with all square sails (apart from the spanker on the mizzen mast, and any stay-sails).
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I have yet to see anywhere that it states the M2s were different in the B models. The inboard guns were mounted higher and further forward in the wing. The outboard guns were mounted slightly lower and aft in comparison to the inboard guns. The guns were angled in their mounts. The inboard guns feed belt came up and over the outboard gun.
The angled belt routing along with the guns being canted over in their mounts was one of the biggest reasons for jamming. I've got some photos that will show what I'm talking about. I've got a close up one of Col. "Tex" Hill climbing into his P-51C that shows just how differently they are mounted from the front. I've also got some line drawings of the ammo bay.
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/30belt.jpg)
7.62 x 63 looks like 23 per foot. That would be about 620 rounds per 9 yards.
The pic's from my office. I just had a digital camera handy.
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My office doesn't have a fireplace. And I live in Michigan, where I could USE a fireplace in the office.
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hehe :)
you did put the ruler correctly this time ;)
thanks
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Originally posted by rshubert
My office doesn't have a fireplace. And I live in Michigan, where I could USE a fireplace in the office.
I bet you don't have a row of ammonution above your fireplace :)
Better watch out with that Pyro!
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The fireplace is all show and no go. We fired it up once but it was a carbon monoxide factory. Seemed pretty cool when we were looking for office space but I'd rather have the wall space now. I need more bookshelves.
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For books or for more explosives :D
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May bustr leave room now to seek medical help in getting footware removed from oral cavity??? I did not think this much effort would be spent on one silly expression..........:) I has learned my lesson...........;)
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heh, wheres the rocket that you got at the con a few years back? it didnt fit on top of the shelf? :D
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So. a P-38 could give the whole 12 & 2/3 yards? Not as catchy