Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SunTracker on February 22, 2005, 06:03:46 AM
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Why did they do away with the tank commanders cupola (like on the M-60) on the M1 Abrams? On the M1, the tank commander has to be expose to fire his machine gun. On the M-60, the tank commander really does have a miniature turret where he can button up and fire at things with his machine gun.
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The TC's(Tank Commander) 50 is fired electrically from inside the tank using the Commander's Override. The TC is only exposed when putting a new ammo can in place.
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(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.jpg)
You can see by this picture that both the commander and gunner have to be exposed to fire their weapons.
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(http://dwp.bigplanet.com/rellitechnology/nss-folder/pictures/M60A3.jpg)
This picture shows the M60s commander's cupola.
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No they don't. The TC can operate the gun from inside the turret by means of remote controls mounted in the turret. The loader does need to expose himself if he wants to fire his gun.
Vati
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I know the commander has a turret override control, where he can take control of the main cannon and the coax machine gun. But this takes away the gunner's weapons if they are buttoned up.
Or did you mean that the commanders machine gun on top of the tank can be remotely controlled?
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On the M1 and M1A1, the TC fired his weapon from inside the turret using an electric switch to control the cupola's azimuth while turning a small crank (we called it the "eggbeater") to control elevation. On the M1A2, the "improved commaner's weapon station" was introduced, which requires the TC to expose himself and fire the MG from a relatively unsteady platform. Improved? No. More affordable given the overall increase of the A2 package? Most likely. Oh yeah, the TC's periscopes are larger, easier to see out of, and about 10x more reflective.
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Nevermind my 24 years experience in tanks. What would I know.
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I dunno... what do you know?
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That lute fish sucks.
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yuck... I would never put mine in a lutefisk.
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Originally posted by Finrod
Nevermind my 24 years experience in tanks. What would I know.
With that sorry avatar, not much. j/k.;)
Suntracker, the picture shows the TC and loader unbuttoned and standing on the seats. Only the loader needs to be out to fire his weapon.
The TC fires remotely as Finrod said.
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My day simply would not be complete without at least one Norwegian drive-by Nilsen.
I'm working a staff job til retirement in October, but my fondest memories will always be of my time in the 2nd ACR. I suspect you were 11th Monk? :)
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Why did they do away with the tank commanders cupola
I'm guessing it's because the Cupola adds height to the profile of the tank and would trigger any explosive round that hit it plus with the advances in electronics and remote control (see above) it wasn't necessary anymore.
Disclamer: No one on the Design Team ask my opinion.
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Originally posted by Finrod
My day simply would not be complete without at least one Norwegian drive-by Nilsen.
I suspect you were 11th Monk? :)
nope, 2/2 ;)
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Originally posted by Finrod
My day simply would not be complete without at least one Norwegian drive-by Nilsen.
Where can I find a norwegian lutefisk drivein-by? Would like to try one of those lutefisk one day. What do they charge, and do they come in different sizes?
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It was removed to lower the profile of the tank.
The isrealis actually removed it from the M60s, I dont know that it was actually removed in US service.
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brother, I was Ghost Troop 2/2 1987 - 90. Went with them to the gulf.
Nilsen, you must understand that the cause of all this is simple...its because a vest has no sleeves.
The notes we got in the 80s was that the cupola was removed to lower the profile of the M1. The M60 was actually a pretty good tank, particularly the A3 but it was very large.
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Originally posted by Finrod
brother, I was Ghost Troop 2/2 1987 - 90. Went with them to the gulf.
Get outa here - Fox, same times.
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No Chite! I was part of the crew that came over from 3-35 AR across the street when ya'll were so short NCOs. I used to run with Richardson and Bouday.:D
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Ahh, I get it now finrod.
Thx :)
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i love you rodfin, you da man.
you still need to give me tanking lessons...
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Originally posted by SunTracker
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.jpg)
You can see by this picture that both the commander and gunner have to be exposed to fire their weapons.
isnt that the first m1 that is on display at the patton musem at ft. knox? oh BTW i was in L trp 3/3 ACR and was one of the lucky ones who got out just before the gulf war.
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Ok, so we got finrod saying that the commanders 50 can be electronically fired. And VOR says that this feature was removed on later M1s. And in a book I just read on M1s in Gulf 2, it doesnt mention tank commanders firing from a buttoned up position. In fact, it talks quite a bit about tank commanders firing shortened m16s (M4s) from the commanders hatch. So maybe the 50 was removed all together.
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Thunder Run suntracker?
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tank commanders suppose to command the tank not spend his time shooting at enemy soldiers with the machine gun.
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M1 and M1A1 could fire commanders pintle 50cal remotely from inside.
The M1A2 cannot because of a new cupola design. Why was this dropped, I dont know.
As I understand it US tankers fired M4 carbines in Iraq becuse sometimes the 50cal was overkil and provided too much penetration after hitting the intended human target in close urban ares.
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This is actually starting to become sorta funny. The commander's 50 is fired by electric cylanoids (spelling). There are no "butterfly" handles on it. The comander fires from inside the tank. Now I stopped being in an armor battalion, except for a 2 month period last year, so things might have changed but Tank Table6, 7 and 8 both have a 50 Engagement from a buttonned up position. That would be sorta hard if it weren't possible. You asked the question, got your answer, now you want to debate the answer. As far as firing an M4 from the hatch, Grun asnwered that question.
Bigsky...yep thats the original on display at the Patton Museum at Knox.
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Originally posted by Finrod
This is actually starting to become sorta funny. The commander's 50 is fired by electric cylanoids (spelling). There are no "butterfly" handles on it. The comander fires from inside the tank. Now I stopped being in an armor battalion, except for a 2 month period last year, so things might have changed but Tank Table 6, 7 and 8 all have a 50 Engagement from a buttonned up position. That would be sorta hard if it weren't possible. You asked the question, got your answer, now you want to debate the answer. As far as firing an M4 from the hatch, Grun asnwered that question.
Bigsky...yep thats the original on display at the Patton Museum at Knox.
emailed one of my old buddies, and yes we still fire from a position in the tank. The controls have been somewhat reworked but the fundamental engagement has NOT changed.
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How does the tank commander fire the 50 caliber from both a sitting and standing position if it only has electric controls inside the tank?
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You're thinking too hard about this. The Commander has a large joystick like handle slightly down and to the right. Its easily accessable from either a standing or sitting position. But sitting is better because then you can use the sighting system without having to shoot using the force. Using the force is something we try to discourage nowadays.
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we used to call using the force "burst on target". Sure it was a less effective mechanism than using the sights but hey.. it was hella fun
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Here is a picture of the TCs position if it helps any.
(http://www.peostri.army.mil/PM-CATT/CCTT/CITT/io/ie/images/a1tcpos.gif)
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
we used to call using the force "burst on target". Sure it was a less effective mechanism than using the sights but hey.. it was hella fun
Used to do it with the free mounted 50s on the 113s too. :D
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Originally posted by Finrod
My day simply would not be complete without at least one Norwegian drive-by Nilsen.
I'm working a staff job til retirement in October, but my fondest memories will always be of my time in the 2nd ACR. I suspect you were 11th Monk? :)
1st SQDN 2nd ACR here.... was at Bindlach from '86 to 89.
1/2 ACR
Tojours Pret
:aok
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Originally posted by Finrod
Using the force is something we try to discourage nowadays.
(http://www.geocities.com/zakskywalker/pictures/REBEL11.JPG)
:confused: :confused: :confused:
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The Fort Knox Patton Museum emailed me today
Here is the email
"Mr. *****,
According to our Abrams System Manager's office, the answer to your question is:
On an M1A2 and M1A2 SEP the tank commander must open the hatch and expose himself to fire the .50 cal that is in the tank commander's position.
Some units have procured the M4 mount which enables the .50 cal to be moved from the TCs position to over the main gun and then it can be fired electrically.
I hope this helps.
Connie Shaffery
Fort Knox Public Affairs Office "
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Suntracker,
FWIW in the M60 the TC could fire the .50 from inside or outside the tank. The controls were close to the middle of the cupola. The controls were a couple of cranks one of which had a button. That was the triger. One crank was for elevation, the other for traverse.
From the inside you had the optical site looking through the TC's periscope. If you fired from the exposed position you still used the same controls but looked over the gun to site it in. Frankly it was spray and pray for first burst hits. You had to estimate the elevation while above the barrel. If you were close to on target you could lay a burst quickly by adjusting. You didn't want to spray a lot as ammo was limited to one box and you had to expose yourself to reload. It wasn't particularly easy either.
Cocking the gun was done with a chain as there was no charging handle on this weapon due to lack of room in the cupola. A second chain was provided to fire manually if the electric trigger failed. There was no butterfly on the gun, just a back plate with a solenoid.
The advantage to being out of the turret was that you had better view of the area. The vision blocks just never gave the same view and restricted vision. It was a bit cramped as well.