Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FX1 on February 22, 2005, 02:48:23 PM
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What do we need to change? In my opponent Aces high is a great game but there are some issues that do need adjustments. For starters this is a game and needs to stay that way. Modeling should be number 1# with fighters and bombers HTC is on the right track but we could always use some more info and input. My first change would be with HO shots I would say that 80% 1v1 merge are ho’s. This just makes most people PO and doesn’t help out game play one bit. I know that in ww2 10% of kills were because of ho’s and should be the percentage in the game as well not what its like today. GV are part of the game but this is a flight sim ww2ol is a GV sim this is why I don’t play it I like fighters. Porking has gone way out of hand barracks should only be taken out by bombs that would lead to mission devoted to this mission not one person porking 3 base in one flight. In AW we didn’t have a super plane like the la7, it needs to be perked I don’t care what anybody has to say about this la7 are way out of hand and needs to be addressed. In my mined AW was the best flight sim ever but Aces high can become better with not that many changes. STOP THE HO SHOT would be a start our make them harder. All I listen to on vox is “I got ho’ed” and I am personally pissed about it.
Their has been to many time that I have been in a magnificent fight then just to get ho’ed by a LA7 before I pulled the trigger on a good pilot that I have been battling with for 10mins. Let me have a chance to finish the fight and see if that la7 can get on my six. If he can I will him. Not to die not knowing the pilot that was a great opponent but to see “system 2weeknewb shot you down”. In AW this wouldn’t have happened. PS it could but only if I was stupid (:
Let’s make the fight’s better
BTW to the bish f6f pilot last night, great flyn to bad i got Ho'ed
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:lol
good post
if hes a 2week newb you should kill him anyway, expect the HO always and judge your opponent by his merge :)
perk some more planes HT, go on, we dare ya.
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I hate to say it, but your biggest complaint has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with the people in it.
Yes, I'd be willing to put money down that in real life, there were far less kills by HO. However, that is because the fear of DEATH generally caused a pilot to be wary of getting anywhere near an opponent's guns.
Unfortunately, this is a game. The risk of real death is not there, and you will have people using tactics that would not have worked quite as well in real life. Instead of complaining about the HO and saying "something must be done", how about some ideas for stopping it?
Also, do not confuse a HO with someone coming in to help a squad/country mate. Heading towards each other on merge is a HO. Happening to loop into the direct path of a BnZ'ing Typhoon, trying to clear his countrymate's 6 is NOT. There's a subtle difference, even though the result generally feels the same.
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Hmmmmmmmmm...... ................Ummmmmm........If X equals Y then....... .........OK OK mined=mind......yea, yea got that one.
I`ll get back to ya, I`m trying to bust this coad. :D
If you are not a troller, you sure have a lot of lines in the water.
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It just a figure of speech I always try and avoid a ho but sometimes that’s all people go for. Yes last night in that fight I was so involved that the la7 had a chance to get up and run us down and ho’ed and their wasnt anything i could do but hope that he missed. I only wish I had film you could see why I was pissed off so bad. We could eliminate a major portion of frustration because of this one problem. Fights would last longer better tactics would be involved because you would need to win the fight! I don’t know one person that likes to be ho’ed do you? I think it also run’s people away from the game our is one reason some people stop flyn. But what do I know I have only been on for almost 4 month’s
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We could eliminate a major portion of frustration because of this one problem
And create another frustration, move the play advantge to the slow turn fighters.
I rember very well the no head on code in AW, as a ropa doper in FW, and F4's it me very frustrated me greatly to have a guy supspended totaly still in mid air, and not be able to shoot him because he had his nose point some what towards me.
2nd the aim point between AW and AH are drasticly different.
3rd in AW you didn't have to worry about colliding with the other guy.
Finaly If you are just fairly new, and aw was the last thing you played, You still have realy bad habits about the merge that you need to adjust.
HiTech
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Well ... its sounds like you got into a good fight ... got so engrossed in the fight that you threw any and all SA out the window ... and a screaming La-7 comes in a wacks ya.
Sorry ... but shame on you .. you got target fixated and got picked.
Are you sure it was an HO ? ... could you have shot him at the exact same time he shot at you ? If so ... you shoulda face shot the bastage ... If not ... then it wasn't an HO.
On one hand I abhor the HO weenies that saturate the MA ... on the other hand ... I love spanking them in 1-2 turns after the HO.
I would much rather avoid HOs myself than to have HT put some funcky piece of coad that stops it ... that would be totally ghey.
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I hate to say it, but your biggest complaint has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with the people in it.
Its part of the game yes.
Take it away and you will have one less problem with a person.
In AW I loved the merge, your heart rate goes up and you’re thinking what’s going to be my first move, what his he going to do. Makes me have goose bumps thinking about it.
In AH , o crap he is going to ho and he going to extend and try it once more..
Yes good pilots will not ho I am not worried about them it’s the other 80% that need to learn not to. I was thinking about this after our first squad duel when I knew no body was going to ho on the merge. It felt good!
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HT and the others are right. It's not the game but the way people fly. We do things that in RL pilots would not even concider doing or would get grownded for doing. I get PO when I get hoed since I am trying not to fire when I come face to face with some one, but it happens.
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Originally posted by FX1
Yes good pilots will not ho I am not worried about them it’s the other 80% that need to learn not to.
More importantly, good pilots won't get nailed by the HO. I still find the merge to be exciting, especially if it's a 1v1 situation and you know that it's going to be a battle. The only difference between merging in AH, and Merging in AW, is that I'm not going to point my face at his face.
Give it a little rudder and a zero G Dive. Get verticle seperation before you cross. Assume they are going to HO every time, and learn how to merge without becoming exposed. That's the only advice I can give on the issue. I used to hate all the HOing, but now I only notice the sound of their guns as they go blazing by.
-Sik
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I don't think he is talking about HOs on the merge
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Originally posted by dedalos
I don't think he is talking about HOs on the merge
He was expressly talking about the Merge in his last post.
-Sik
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Originally posted by FX1
In AW we didn’t have a super plane like the la7
Yes we did. It was called the DWEEBfire.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Sikboy
He was expressly talking about the Merge in his last post.
-Sik
you are right. I went of the original post or atlist this is how I understood it. In any case, avoiding the HO at the merge is easy. I could not say the same for a HO thats a result of a second guy jumping in while you are in a turn fight.
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first fuel couldnt be porked
now you want barracks too?
they are WOODEN huts, of coarse a 20mm or 30mm round will kill them, let alone a rocket.
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Not saying take it away Just make it harder our less damage. I am new but most of my squad isnt and they cant stand it.
Our this "system fx1 was ho'ed by 2weeknewb" That would stop it.
Na that wouldnt work because it would crash the system (:
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Originally posted by dedalos
you are right. I went of the original post or atlist this is how I understood it. In any case, avoiding the HO at the merge is easy. I could not say the same for a HO thats a result of a second guy jumping in while you are in a turn fight.
Yep, that's the frustrating one to me. I can miss the HO on the merge, but once I'm in low and slow turning, there's nothing more frustrating then the guy going light speed face shooting you as he blows through what up to that point was a perfectly good knife fight.
It's the nature of the game I guess, and it's still up to the person doing the shooting whether he pulls the trigger or not.
I don't think you could or should try and program into the game a way to take the HO out however. That's a people issue not programing.
Dan/Slack
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ACK ACK it was th 38super, spits were way to slow.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
More importantly, good pilots won't get nailed by the HO. I still find the merge to be exciting, especially if it's a 1v1 situation and you know that it's going to be a battle. The only difference between merging in AH, and Merging in AW, is that I'm not going to point my face at his face.
Give it a little rudder and a zero G Dive. Get verticle seperation before you cross. Assume they are going to HO every time, and learn how to merge without becoming exposed. That's the only advice I can give on the issue. I used to hate all the HOing, but now I only notice the sound of their guns as they go blazing by.
-Sik
Its HO's all together..
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I like HO's.
Ive gotten better at them.
I've been praticin on those drone dudes off line and let me tell ya. I'm like 100:0 k/d on em.
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All I know morpheus is I ran into you for the first time the other night and you are a....
Friggin magician with a plane.
I mean that with all respect.
granted I'm a new guy but I have seen some great flyers since I have started. You are great !
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I'm the only player in the game that gets ho'ed. Everyone else is smart enough to get out of the way. I'm the dumbButt who thinks they won't.
Your mistaken.
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FX1, as several above have said it's relatively easy to dodge a HO once you know how, then the HO becomes a moot point. Many people who try to dodge the HO start far too late. It's best to start manouvering at atleast 2k out. You give them a low % shot, you gain the angle. Unless a plane is under say 160mph a HO can be avoided.
I only ever go for the HO/front quarter shot if the other guy can't get his guns on me. This includes if he is trying to avoid it. It sounds harsh, but if a guy is going to give me an easy shot with no risk to myself i'll take it. If it looks like he's gonna attempt to HO me i'll dodge it.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I like HO's.
Ive gotten better at them.
I've been praticin on those drone dudes off line and let me tell ya. I'm like 100:0 k/d on em.
Man you spend way too much time offline ya dweeb
:D
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I rember very well the no head on code in AW, as a ropa doper in FW, and F4's it me very frustrated me greatly to have a guy supspended totaly still in mid air, and not be able to shoot him because he had his nose point some what towards me.
You werent doing your ropes properly then. Your intended victim should stall just as you get your nose down, for a nice easy shot into the top of his plane :) I roped all the time in my Corsair, never really had the problem you describe ;)
Btw.....you forgot to turn your spell checker back on. :lol
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A ho in my mined is a 50/50 chance that you our the other person will be shot down our damage. Yes i will take a shot that i know their is no way he can return fire on me. And yes i dont get ho'ed verv much anymore because i start looking for it 2k out i am not that new. I will make a film tonight so everybody knows what i am talking about. I am shure i will be ho'ed
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I think maybe if you will scroll up and see the reply from the gentleman posting under the name hitech, and if you know who he is, you just might figure out you are peeing in the wind. :D
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There should a check box when you login
Do you think HO's were a valid and historical tactic, and would you like to employ them here with reckless abandon ?
If you answer yes - ---------> TA
If you answer no -----------> MA CT
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Originally posted by Elfie
You werent doing your ropes properly then. Your intended victim should stall just as you get your nose down, for a nice easy shot into the top of his plane :) I roped all the time in my Corsair, never really had the problem you describe ;)
Btw.....you forgot to turn your spell checker back on. :lol
I remember watching some of Hitech's old AW films - and yes he knew how to rope .
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Originally posted by thrila
FX1, as several above have said it's relatively easy to dodge a HO once you know how, then the HO becomes a moot point. Many people who try to dodge the HO start far too late. It's best to start manouvering at atleast 2k out. You give them a low % shot, you gain the angle. Unless a plane is under say 160mph a HO can be avoided.
I only ever go for the HO/front quarter shot if the other guy can't get his guns on me. This includes if he is trying to avoid it. It sounds harsh, but if a guy is going to give me an easy shot with no risk to myself i'll take it. If it looks like he's gonna attempt to HO me i'll dodge it.
I agree with what you are saying Thrila , but the only thing that's not a moot point , is that it gets so damn boring dodging HO attempts from jousters - that it is really having a negative effect on gameplay - imho.
I don't believe the answer in in the code though - it's the player base that needs to change
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fx1 what squad are you in?
If you play this game long enough the HO should not be that big of a problem for you.
Frodo
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All your bases are belong to us
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Originally posted by Redd
There should a check box when you login
Do you think HO's were a valid and historical tactic, and would you like to employ them here with reckless abandon ?
If you answer yes - ---------> TA
If you answer no -----------> MA CT
to easy Redd!
they will click no then as soon as they up in the MA or CT they will rvert to the HO, lol have HT write some COAD and if the FE reads that you are lined up directly with an opponent ( give or take a degree or 2)and fire at them nose to nose, you get dumped.........hehe that would be cool :D
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Originally posted by FX1
ACK ACK it was th 38super, spits were way to slow.
The Dweebfire in AW was faster than the P-38J was at all altitudes.
ack-ack
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May have been, but a good 38 Pilot or F6F pilot would own a spit any day of the week in AW.
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Headons rule. Why in the world would I want to change them?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by hitech
move the play advantge to the slow turn fighters.
I, for one, would be very much in favor of this.
:D
As frustrating as it is, I'm not thinking this is a code fix either. [insert standard 'AW smaller community chivalry warm, fuzzy, meandering retrospection]. It is entirely up to the players, and the newer crowd cares very little about community or the fun of a good fight. They want to find a team, and start killing. They probably don't have any idea of the twisted little subculture that is AH- nothing about squads, ettiquette, ACM, or flight in general. They wish merely to get to the front line with a weapon as soon as possible. The question I see on text more than anything else is "What's the fastest plane?". Of course, the answer given to all newbs is.... La-7. I'm guessing that probably 75% of the newbs grab and La and go out a-huntin'. Race off to a fight, point the nose directly and the nearest con, and start firing.
While I hate getting picked off mid turn by some tool in an La 7 coming right at my nose, I'm not really convinced they're trying to HO above all else. I'm guessing they've not given a single thought to where I'm going, how fast I am, how much energy I might have, or what guns I've got pointing at them. They are trying to get that kill as soon as humanly possible, at all costs.
Anyhow, fat chance that most these guys will stick around for very long, but the ones who do will ideally at some point try to learn some basic ACMs and put up good fights without all the nose-nose blasting away. I doubt it, but that's my little pipe dream.
Cheers,
hub
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Originally posted by Frodo
fx1 what squad are you in?
If you play this game long enough the HO should not be that big of a problem for you.
Frodo
WING of Terror look us up. The degree idea would be great say 5 or 2 from your nose out to 1000k. Call this the fear of death factor our whatever.
I dont care if its a mood point I would just like say a word about it. And i think its not a bad idea if you had alittle avd at merge you would make the ho but if its nose to nose let the fight end the way it should. If i were to make a person stall i would need to worry about 1 ping engine hit froma guy that shooting 1000 out then stalls and i blast him. BTW ropes are no as common in AH as in AW because you will be ho'ed. I personally dont call what i do is a rope it more like let the other guy go after something else then i might rope him.
Frodo if you think i can fly because i complain about ho's let DA and you can ho all you wish. I will be on at 6:00 central and if you think WOT can counter a HO then i am shure you can try it out with them.
HTC i am shure some people would like to test this out and see if it does help out the game. In DA do you HO and some of the best fight come from the DA. Think about it
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Originally posted by Redd
Do you think HO's were a valid and historical tactic,
against the bombers, it was. :)
HT,
setting the argument of "avoiding the HO" aside, deduct perks for every dead-straight HO shot. this oughta reduce the # of occurences to only those rare "life & death" situations, yea?
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See some good ideas
lets take a poll
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shouldn't even need a poll for this one. it's a dead lock in the "yes" column...
i propose that all La-7's should be forced to tow this banner:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/77_1109147222_lgay_banner.jpg)
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Ha! I love that. Some creative comical people here. :lol
I do like the perk deduction Idea.
Woof
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You made a comment in your first post that its a flight sim, and to get rid of the gv's, Its just not a flight sim its a combat sim, and includes all types of combat vehicles, and as far as porking bases well bombers can do it just as well as gv's but most of the porking of troops and ordance I see done is by people in 109's, 190's, p38'sand p51's.
Maybe I am Wrong but I was under the assumption that the object of the game was to take bases from the other countries, and to stop them from advancing and to do that you need to kill the supply lines and drop their ordance.
:aok :eek:
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Hum, instead of outright disallowing the HO, or perking the LA-7, why not have NEGATIVE perks dinged on your account for an HO shot for all planes. Do an HO, and system immediately advises you (whether you get the kill or not) the negative perks will be assigned for a bad judgement call.
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If you feel that your only options in the hanger are the fast planes that can't turn without using too much skill..... planes with a lot of cannon power, then you will feel that you are limited to the HO and the sneak so far as acm goes.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by FX1
WING of Terror look us up. The degree idea would be great say 5 or 2 from your nose out to 1000k. Call this the fear of death factor our whatever.
I dont care if its a mood point I would just like say a word about it. And i think its not a bad idea if you had alittle avd at merge you would make the ho but if its nose to nose let the fight end the way it should. If i were to make a person stall i would need to worry about 1 ping engine hit froma guy that shooting 1000 out then stalls and i blast him. BTW ropes are no as common in AH as in AW because you will be ho'ed. I personally dont call what i do is a rope it more like let the other guy go after something else then i might rope him.
Frodo if you think i can fly because i complain about ho's let DA and you can ho all you wish. I will be on at 6:00 central and if you think WOT can counter a HO then i am shure you can try it out with them.
HTC i am shure some people would like to test this out and see if it does help out the game. In DA do you HO and some of the best fight come from the DA. Think about it
This statement is why I asked what squad you were in.( I am new but most of my squad isnt and they cant stand it. )
You seem a little defensive. If you stick around another 4 months and the HO is still a problem, then the problem is with you. If you are in the main in a turn fight and don't have good SA then you will get picked off a lot, and not just by the HO.
And as far as challenging me to a duel at 6:00 central ( I guess school gets out at 5:00 or so?) :rolleyes:
Frodo
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HT has provided COAD with a fix for HOs.
It is called a 110. If it is a HO they want, give it to them. If not, you will learn a lot by dog fighting a 110 before geting into a mashine that defies gravity and all other laws of physics like a
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Originally posted by Ohio43
Do an HO, and system immediately advises you (whether you get the kill or not) the negative perks will be assigned for a bad judgement call.
So does one use bad judgement when HOing a 202 in a 110G? I'd do it in a heartbeat to end the fight before it even begins.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Like it or not, HO's are a part of the game. I am not a fan of them (mostly because I come out smoking with oil on my windscreen), but they are avoidable (though I find myself suckered into them time and time again).
Not sure what my point is, except maybe you will have to learn to live with them. I have, I reup and tell myself I will not let that happen again, knowing it takes 2 to HO.
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gollum, I agree, except that it does not always take two to HO. It takes two to merge, but only one to be determined to take a head-on shot. Many many times, the opponent and I are heading for the merge, I break slightly to his lower left or right to avoid the HO, and he's doing his absolute best to continue flying right into my windscreen, kicking rudder and spraying all over.
And Levi brings up a good point. I once had a spit HO my IL2. All I had to do was wait until he filled my gunsight and I pulled the trigger. Spit go boom. I should be penalized for that?
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yep, there are HOs. sometimes good tactic, most time not. usually when someone tries to HO me on merge, they don't last very long. too much time is wasted going for HO on merge, really bad idea.
some points for all:
-if you cant avoid, need to learn.
-if too slow to avoid HO, you will probably be dead soon anyway.
-SA is helpful to avoid being HO'd.
-MA not 1v1 fighting, the longer you wrangle with someone, the better chances someone will jump you. if you fly in front of their sights, is bad.
-after you are HO'd make sure to get real mad on ch.200 because i love watching the melt downs. this also allows you to redeem yourself so that the other person knows that you are better than him, and that you could beat him any day.
-better than HO'ing is Ramming, man that really makes people mad.
all seriousness, HOing does impact gameplay but not being able to make any front panel shots is really bad idea at best. i
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Originally posted by Tabasco
And Levi brings up a good point. I once had a spit HO my IL2. All I had to do was wait until he filled my gunsight and I pulled the trigger. Spit go boom. I should be penalized for that?
No definately not penalized, I see no reason to change anything. Sometimes a HO is a good tactic, especially if you are already fighting outnumbered with 2 on your six and a third inbound at 12 o'clock. Why not try a pass on him, you might be able to even the numbers (because he will be on you six with the other 2 soon enough)...
I am for the status quo. :)
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One reason i opened this can of worms is because i feel that most people dislike some issues. I played AW from the start to the end and cant remember chan 1 being like 200 is today. Will i live with it yes. Do i worry about a HO yes, does it help with the overall game play no. I guess Hitech will not address the issue but what is the bbs good for. I cant help it but i think it's one issue that drives people away from the game. My point was just to make people think and not to make people mad. Do i like this game, look at my hours for the last 2 camps i must. Please understand that i was just making a point.
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Originally posted by FX1
I cant help it but i think it's one issue that drives people away from the game.
Consider that incredibly unrealistic gameplay concessions drive people away from the game as well. At a time where the technology allows HTC to enable collisions and greatly increase the hit resolution for bullets, there is no reason whatsoever to disable headons. Much of what you enjoyed in AW resulted as much from gameplay considerations as it did from the limitations of the hit bubble, damage model, and lack of collisions; jousting in AW would have been far more lethal and prevalent than in Aces High due to its archaic network code.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Oh oh oh OH!
It's not just the HO's that there's a problem with. IMO at least a HO takes skill cause you got to know some o'dat ACM stuf to avoid colliding at the last moment!
What I really hate are these bullshiite pesky shots people get on me from my rear (5 to 7 o'clock) angles. You know, the cheap, easy kills that they get on ya from behind. And everyone know only poossies shoot people in the back!
So let's kill the frontal shot like AW, the best damn flkight sim evAr, and while we're at it let's eliminat the six shot so we can get some REAL acm thing-a-muh-jiggies going here.
After that's been done we can work on convincing HTC to toss out collisions and to make the hit bubble bigger too!!
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Originally posted by FX1
My point was just to make people think and not to make people mad.
I don't think anyone's mad here, though some people don't agree with your point.
This comes up quite a bit, along with the "Perk the La-7" topics.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Westy
What I really hate are these bullshiite pesky shots people get on me from my rear (5 to 7 o'clock) angles. You know, the cheap, easy kills that they get on ya from behind. And everyone know only poossies shoot people in the back!
I once had a guy berate me on Channel 1 for shooting him down from low-6. He said: "Did your girlfriend teach you that?"
Funniest whine I'd ever seen in game.
-Sik
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A head on is not a head on unless both planes are pointing the nose at eachother and both people have a chance of killing the other. a HO shot is not a shot where one plane flies towards the other from a 1 o'clock or 2o'clock possition, that is a deflection shot.
If one can't avoid a head on one should think about changing tactics or getting a hell of alot more training as the HO is the easiest attack to avoid.
Can't believe people are still whining about it.
Tactic to avoid: Roll right or left till you reach a 5+ degree bank, when the plane has rolled somewhat, pull your stick slightly. HO avoided. Now, you may still get your belly full of lead but that is because you have turned a little bit too little and the other guy has mannaged to pull a deflection or a lead shot on you but atleast it is no HO.
As for driving people away from the game, I can't think of a bigger reason to leave the game then if such a "feuture" was implamented, and I KNOW alot of people agree with me there.
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Willbus have you been Ho'ed this camp? Have you had the chance to avoid every last single ho? I dont think their is a super player in main that can avoid every ho. If you can avoid it everytime then why have it? Levi was correct with his point about the 110 our il2 they should be allowed to ho.
I myself have pledge never to HO from this day on!
Only return a HO if Ho'ed after merge.
BTW i will Ho a 262, rules go out the door when someone is in a jet.
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Yes I can avoid pretty much every single Head On without much difficulty. It doesn't take much skill to avoid them, pretty much no skill at all actually.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
shouldn't even need a poll for this one. it's a dead lock in the "yes" column...
i propose that all La-7's should be forced to tow this banner:
:rofl Most excellent.
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Originally posted by FX1
Willbus have you been Ho'ed this camp? Have you had the chance to avoid every last single ho? I dont think their is a super player in main that can avoid every ho. If you can avoid it everytime then why have it? Levi was correct with his point about the 110 our il2 they should be allowed to ho.
I myself have pledge never to HO from this day on!
Only return a HO if Ho'ed after merge.
BTW i will Ho a 262, rules go out the door when someone is in a jet.
FX....that really makes little sense if you think about it. Why would you allow some planes to HO and others to not HO? Why only HO jets...your'e trying to HO a plane with 4 30mm cannons.
They really aren't that difficult to avoid by the way. There are several methods that allow you to avoid the HO and gain angles on the merge right up front in the fight. Usually these methods work, sometimes they don't....it's part of the game.
I for one don't HO on the merge because if I can set a shot up, so can the other guy....and I'm low in the gunnery skills dept. However if I am in a multiplane engagement with bad guys all over me, watch for that HO shot from me....It's a last ditch effort to stay alive and really adds to the excitement. It's also nice to know, especially in those situations that if you put bullets on a plane....they hit it.
The AW model was goofy...it was random which meant that skill had little to do with who got the hits in on the HO shot. In addition... many folks took it, you just didn't take hits very often. There was little risk (because it was random) and you might get lucky and get a hit as you flew through the other guys plane.
AW was a great game during it's time, I played it for years. However AH is several generations advanced from AW and is also a great game. Just because AH is different from AW doesn't mean it's broke. It's just harder, more fun, with more fun ways to kill and be killed.
Zaphod
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Originally posted by FX1
Willbus have you been Ho'ed this camp? Have you had the chance to avoid every last single ho? I dont think their is a super player in main that can avoid every ho. If you can avoid it everytime then why have it? Levi was correct with his point about the 110 our il2 they should be allowed to ho.
I myself have pledge never to HO from this day on!
Only return a HO if Ho'ed after merge.
BTW i will Ho a 262, rules go out the door when someone is in a jet.
If it is just me and another guy, I can avoid the HO everytime. If I am in the core of a furball ... its almost impossible to avoid getting caught by a HO. Too many planes, too many angles ... someone is gonna end up nose to nose with you. If you have the speed, chances are you can avoid the HO ... too slow ... nothing you can do except try to beat him to the punch.
Your to wishy-washy with HOs in this post.
You pledge to NEVER HO FROM THIS DAY ON !
except for this ... and that ... and maybe this ... and sometimes that.
Either your not going to HO or you are going to HO and from what you have said here ... you are an HOer and will still practice the art of HOing. With that, your initial post in this thread is null and void ... ;)
I guess Hitech will not address the issue but what is the bbs good for.
He did address the issue ... it was quite clear to me that he will not be doing anything about it for the reasons and example that he stated.
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Yes AH is harder, more fun well we will see. AH does have a nasty learning curve, 2 weeks just doesnt do it for a neewb. I have respect for the game and most of the players in it. My roomie tried it out when i was away on a trip and his words were "i could get off the ground and fly around but everyone shot me down while they were in front of me" he will not play the game no matter what i tell him. LOL all because he got ho'ed 100 times his first week.
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I take back everything I've said regarding community, virtual sportsmanship, or newbs learning the game. It seems far simpler than that.
The better your position in a fight is, the more likely you'll be HOed, or at least they'll try.
The longer you survive in a fight, the more likely you'll be HOed, or at least they'll try.
If you have the numerical advantage in a fight, the more likely you'll be HOed, or at least they'll try.
If you're the one outnumbered, there's more people trying for the kill, sooo... the more likely you'll be HOed, or at least they'll try.
People just get desparate for a kill, no matter how they get it. I have one simple rule, I'll try to avoid the first headon pass; if I take hits or hear guns chatter as they pass, all bets are off. I'm in a frickin' Hurricane, you don't want me to shoot you in the face!
There, I feel lots better. :p
Cheers,
hub
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Lets just say i will never HO you snapshot our other people that i respect. If it part of the game and everyone just live with it i will. The more i think about it the more it makes me mad. Also i need to understand its war! I wish we could have a check HO lol
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Hub is nasty with the ho. Many night on vox he will say "that guy just tried to ho me" and within 10 sec that guy was dead because of hub's ho.
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You know what is funny about the HO posts?
No matter how you tell people that you are not talking about HOs on a merge but about a third or fourth or fifth guy coming into an existing 1 on 1 fight, there is always some one that will explain to you how to a void the HO on the merge and how it is your fault for letting it happen. Some will go as far as asking you to expose your self to a deflection shot instead of avoiding the HO, because if you do, it is not a HO any more.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm in a frickin' Hurricane, you don't want me to shoot you in the face!
hub
That's HUB for you. Talking about sportsmanship and there he is telling people he would rather shoot them in the back :rolleyes:
he he
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Originally posted by dedalos
You know what is funny about the HO posts?
No matter how you tell people that you are not talking about HOs on a merge but about a third or fourth or fifth guy coming into an existing 1 on 1 fight, there is always some one that will explain to you how to a void the HO on the merge and how it is your fault for letting it happen. Some will go as far as asking you to expose your self to a deflection shot instead of avoiding the HO, because if you do, it is not a HO any more.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I like that post
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takes a lot to make me post somthing...
but this thred is rediculous lmao....
*If you knew how to avoid the dweebs, the hos, and merge correctly, this post would never be here.
*HTC know what hes talking about.
*Yes once in a while i get hoed, and once in a while u get a pilot shot from another guy bnzing while your in a df, but it is not even close to 80% of the time. If it is, you need to learn better tactics/acms.
Perioid.
P.S. I was a newbie once, and was stuborn to learn new things, always thought i was the best, lol, just listen to what others have to say and u will become better pilot. :aok
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hub... :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by BigB717
*If you knew how to avoid the dweebs, the hos, and merge correctly, this post would never be here.
What he said, lol
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Originally posted by FX1
Hub is nasty with the ho. Many night on vox he will say "that guy just tried to ho me" and within 10 sec that guy was dead because of hub's ho.
If you didn't film it, it never happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D
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I played Aw so Im tainted...but using that as an example, where the HO % was very low, only P38s really had a chance at them, I think that if they were to turn down the HO percentage you would see just how many rely on them.
When I came here I played like I did in AW, never bothering with the HO, and trying to get in position for the merge. The opponent would most always press the HO and hit me. This happened alot. If I survived, he almost always was in bad position to continue the fight, and ended up dead.
But its very easy to hit headon, and chances are you will die or be in poor shape to continue. If headon shots were lowered, all the BnZ guys as in AW, would be PO'd. Even in a 4 on 1 you could simple time his attack and put your nose to his until he passed, and quickly resume fighting the other guys.
Alot of people in here will never be geat at dogfighting, but are happy with the chance to get their guns on target anyway they can, even if it means headons. Without it, I think you may wittle down the player base to those who attend KOTH, and other dogfighting events.
The average player would find himself behind the 8-ball, and would tire of dying often and probably would quit.
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I do have film check your email.. lol
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I have a question. Why does everyone claim that they always get to kill the HOer because he ends up in a bad position after the merge? I don't get the how. If the HOer is not in a Spit and tried to turnfight with the Spit, he is dead anyway.
In anycase, maybe someone can show me how this works. I will be in a LALA, KI84, D9 or G10 and you in a turn fighter. Lets try a few runs in the DA cause I don't understand how it works. I will press for the HO at the merge but will only fire BBs if available. Then I want to see how I will end up at a disadvantage.
(edit)
Changed my mind. I will press for the kill at the HO merge. This is how it happens in the MA
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Originally posted by lildawg
You made a comment in your first post that its a flight sim, and to get rid of the gv's, Its just not a flight sim its a combat sim, and includes all types of combat vehicles, and as far as porking bases well bombers can do it just as well as gv's but most of the porking of troops and ordance I see done is by people in 109's, 190's, p38'sand p51's.
Maybe I am Wrong but I was under the assumption that the object of the game was to take bases from the other countries, and to stop them from advancing and to do that you need to kill the supply lines and drop their ordance.
:aok :eek:
This is team game and if taking out enemy planes quickly helps my team, it gets done when I get the shot... Be it HO, LO, JO, or YO momma. Yes, I will cap rounds at your mom if it benefits my team. You can fly around all day extending the courtesy of avoiding head ons all day, only to have those you extend to blow your cockpit to pieces from 12’oclock.
The Head On issue is more of trying to establish community etiquette, or an un written “rule”.. everyone who has played any on-line game knows it’s easier to urinate in the wind than get people to abide by etiquette in a kill or be killed game. Plus it sounds silly, ‘rules’ in a war game? Isn’t one objective here to destroy a town full of people, including their place of worship?
I would suggest a HO stat to highlight the worst offenders, but we all know if you assign a stat to it, even if it’s not a community accepted ‘good’ thing, some will celebrate it and even take measures to celebrate being an effective irritant. I can see “HO” squads and people boasting about being the top HO of the month, “Look at me, I’m most annoying and there’s nothing you can do about it hahaha”
When sniper rifles were brand new in Americas Army, guys would kill you and take it. This led to other guys killing the 1st team killer, in turn #2 TK’er would get TK’d and the end result was a squad of 10 reduced to 3 or 4. The devs established ROE points, hurt/kill team-mates and enough ROE points got you booted from the map and re-spawned in a jail cell.
But that’s a totally free game, free to download, free to play.. they have an obscene number of players so if you didn’t like it, go away. HTC has paying customers to be concerned about and needs to tread lightly in ‘punishing’ unpopular people who pay what is a lot of money… and this is relatively speaking a lot of money. Most games have an initial cost, from there on-line play is free.
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Originally posted by dedalos
You know what is funny about the HO posts?
No matter how you tell people that you are not talking about HOs on a merge but about a third or fourth or fifth guy coming into an existing 1 on 1 fight.....
if it is 5 v 1, and in a furball with little speed, does it really matter if you get HO'd? and there was one post from FX talking about HO on merge described as 1 v 1 on page 1 i believe.
and wondering if in same situation, lets say you didn't notice the la7 moving in for HO, would you notice him moving on 6? if you did notice the la7, you couldn't make is HO attempt more difficult? or maybe noticed too late? where you cherry picking, where you TnB. who knows anymore, i'm not sure about anything stated accept that a person is accusing someone else of being a HOer.
this is strange thread, it moves all around from 1 v 1 HOing, to gang HOing, to seeing 80% of all encounters with someone HOing, not seeing HOing much anymore, sometimes will HO, sometimes will not HO, some planes should HO, some should not HO, some shots not a HO, some shots a HO, don't expose yourselft to HO, someone's mom is a HO (okay i made that up i think, but am confused now so maybe it really was said).
it is part of the game, you can either adapt or you can call people HO dweebs on CH. 200. i think there have been good points made, i like slapshots about furballing and eventually you will end up nose to nose with someone. merging on of the most important aspects of this game and will win many fights for you if done right. it is also difficult to get just right and takes practice, which is why i think many opt just to HO on merge. i think most who are good at merging would say if you break to early you essentially give your hand away, to late and you open yourself to the HO.
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Dedalos..usually it means the guy is nose down trying to get the shot while the other guy has already started coming up and around. Spits naturally would be more forgiving against other planes, but the basic idea is the same.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I have a question. Why does everyone claim that they always get to kill the HOer because he ends up in a bad position after the merge? I don't get the how. If the HOer is not in a Spit and tried to turnfight with the Spit, he is dead anyway.
In anycase, maybe someone can show me how this works. I will be in a LALA, KI84, D9 or G10 and you in a turn fighter. Lets try a few runs in the DA cause I don't understand how it works. I will press for the HO at the merge but will only fire BBs if available. Then I want to see how I will end up at a disadvantage.
(edit)
Changed my mind. I will press for the kill at the HO merge. This is how it happens in the MA
In order for this to work Ded ... you will need to undergo a labotomy.
The contention is that those who consistently HO (the ones that start sprayin' at D800 or further) have absolutely no skill in the first place and once the miss the HO (if they don't continue in a straight line) will die within 1 to 2 turns because the ARE completely out of phase with the merge and if they choose to engage, are dead before they know it.
So ... knowing what you know and the skill that you have, you would not be a good canidate for the experiment.
I know I might be stretching your "skill" a little bit, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt ... ;)
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Man, this all seems like an In Living Color skit to me.
...anyone know the one I am talking about?
The one where Jim Carey is a karate guy teaching a women's self defence course and asks one of the women to try to stab him.
After the second time she successfully stabs him he states, "Once again you have attacked me incorrectly".
That is what this thread sounds like to me, except here it's kinda sad instead of funny.
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You know what is funny about the HO posts?
No matter how you tell people that you are not talking about HOs on a merge but about a third or fourth or fifth guy coming into an existing 1 on 1 fight, there is always some one that will explain to you how to a void the HO on the merge and how it is your fault for letting it happen. Some will go as far as asking you to expose your self to a deflection shot instead of avoiding the HO, because if you do, it is not a HO any more.
Hehe, like I said, doesn't take much skill to avoid either HO or the deflection shot if you avoid the HO, but keep going for the Head on, it's all up to you guys of course.
It was an amusing whine if nothing else, old one but it's always fun to read about.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I know I might be stretching your "skill" a little bit, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt ... ;)
Pffft, I can still your kill and leave you behind to die any time. And don't ever let me catch you on a run way. We will see who is better then. Just stand still will you?
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In the MA HO shots happen a lot, in events it is much less an issue. The whole Rangoon event, the whole Battle of Britan event, i took only part in these two so far, i heared of no HO shot and didnt experience any shot remotely close to HO myself.
Now since most people that fly in the events also fly in the MA i conclude that it is not the people AND its not in aces high. It is in the rules and the setting of the Main Arena and possible other Arenas that head ons are used so much.
In the Main Arena you fight to kill enemy planes at any cost or to get score. And loosing a plane or getting shot down yourself is not penalized, actually it saves you the way home and gives fuel and ammo refill. So the penalty for flying directly into the guns of an oponent is verry low.
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dedalos filth has it right. the basic principle is- While the con is trying to shoot you, you have already completed half of a circle to get on his 6.
Edit: look at it this way- who will be able to pull a tighter circle on the merge? the guy at 450mph with his nose pointed at the floor trying for the shot, or the guy with his nose pointing upwards who can bleed E faster.
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The only code that will fix these complaints is one that forces newbies to learn some ACM/tactics. Dunno how you'd code that though.
:cool:
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
The only code that will fix these complaints is one that forces newbies to learn some ACM/tactics. Dunno how you'd code that though.
:cool:
Everyone that's been around a little while needs to take a couple under their wing - get them in the TA/DA teach them a few things
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HOW THE HECK WILL I GET KILLS IF THEY TAKE AWAY HEAD ON SHOTS???
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Shouldnt you be cleaning a gun or something?
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I think this tread has made people think about the ho shot. Not once in two night have i been HO'ed not because i am avoid it different. I have had some front shot but not a tru ho shot's. WTG everyone
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I will quote P51 pilot WWI ace Chuck Yeager on his shooting down a 262 that was about to land..
"It wasn't very sportsmen like, but oh well" - Mil channel show "Target Berlin"
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just fly a Spit V, and all will be balanced in the world again. I PROMISE!
ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM, off i go in my 190a9 :p
PS: im no longer a reg around here, but damn if the BK's just are not in droves in every post i read. You guys fly and post at the same time or what:p
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O ya Morph,
Thanks for checking into that gun for me bro.:rolleyes:
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I think this tread has made people think about the ho shot. Not once in two night have i been HO'ed not because i am avoid it different. I have had some front shot but not a tru ho shot's. WTG everyone
Oookay...
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Originally posted by thrila
FX1, as several above have said it's relatively easy to dodge a HO once you know how, then the HO becomes a moot point. Many people who try to dodge the HO start far too late. It's best to start manouvering at atleast 2k out. You give them a low % shot, you gain the angle. Unless a plane is under say 160mph a HO can be avoided.
I only ever go for the HO/front quarter shot if the other guy can't get his guns on me. This includes if he is trying to avoid it. It sounds harsh, but if a guy is going to give me an easy shot with no risk to myself i'll take it. If it looks like he's gonna attempt to HO me i'll dodge it.
IMO, it isn't a HO if only one guy has a shot. If only one can shoot, it's a front-quarter deflection shot.
Both are fair game, anyway.
shubie
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Originally posted by FX1
I guess Hitech will not address the issue but what is the bbs good for.
HiTech has allready addressed the issue on page one of this thread. You miss it or something?
And create another frustration, move the play advantge to the slow turn fighters.
I rember very well the no head on code in AW, as a ropa doper in FW, and F4's it me very frustrated me greatly to have a guy supspended totaly still in mid air, and not be able to shoot him because he had his nose point some what towards me.
2nd the aim point between AW and AH are drasticly different.
3rd in AW you didn't have to worry about colliding with the other guy.
Finaly If you are just fairly new, and aw was the last thing you played, You still have realy bad habits about the merge that you need to adjust.
HiTech
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Originally posted by SFCHONDO
May have been, but a good 38 Pilot or F6F pilot would own a spit any day of the week in AW.
Hondo, that avatar. It's only a computer animation but my god is it distracting...
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Originally posted by Morpheus
HOW THE HECK WILL I GET KILLS IF THEY TAKE AWAY HEAD ON SHOTS???
Try vulching :D
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Originally posted by thrila
dedalos filth has it right. the basic principle is- While the con is trying to shoot you, you have already completed half of a circle to get on his 6.
Edit: look at it this way- who will be able to pull a tighter circle on the merge? the guy at 450mph with his nose pointed at the floor trying for the shot, or the guy with his nose pointing upwards who can bleed E faster.
OK, I was trolling. We should try it some time in the DA. You will see that if the HOer knows what he is doing and is in the right plane, he will end up with the advantage if you don't die from the HO.
I can't explain it here (too many words :D) but if you want to try it let me know. You may win, but it wont be as easy as they make it sound.
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Originally posted by dedalos
OK, I was trolling. We should try it some time in the DA. You will see that if the HOer knows what he is doing and is in the right plane, he will end up with the advantage if you don't die from the HO.
I can't explain it here (too many words :D) but if you want to try it let me know. You may win, but it wont be as easy as they make it sound.
Your labotomy is scheduled ... it's a week from tomorrow.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Your labotomy is scheduled ... it's a week from tomorrow.
:eek:
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lobotomy? i had colonic irrigation written down. You evil troll dedalos, i really should have suspected but i gave you the benefit of the doubt heheh.
We can try it in DA if you like, i'll even fly the mossie. :) ph33r teh mozzar!!
It will be funny if you set me on fire with the HO though.:D
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Every time I see somebody whine on ch. 200 about getting HO'ed, I just shake my head and think, "they lost the HO and now they're complaining abouut it!" In order to get HO'ed, they also had to be pointing thier nose at the other aircraft. So, what then are they really complaining about? The only ones you ever see complain are the ones who lose the HO - have you ever seen on ch. 200 something like the following?
"Dammit - I just ho'ed that Spit! - why don't I learn some ACM?"
No, just from the ones who lose...
On the same note - I get a chuckle from all the following types of whines I read:
"Nice Ram"
"Nice Vulch"
"Nice Cherry Pick"
Why don't you just rent a big space on the MOTD and tell everyone that you just got KILLED? Why broadcast that you got shot down? Maybe these are the egomaniacs that can't even condone the thought that someone else might have been better than them for a moment, or feel the need to rationalize their death to anybody else that might have seen it......
Hint: If you don't broadcast stuff like "Nice (ram, pick, vulch, etc.) on Channel 200 - nobody is gonna know you got killed!
Ok, back to the offline game to practice HOing the drones....:)
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"Nice Ram"
"Nice Vulch"
"Nice Cherry Pick"
Those are your problems I Vulch, I Cherry pick if get rammed most of the time it was not intended. This is not a whine tread it’s for the people that use the Ho as their 1# tactic.
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So exactly what are you trying to do here?
You`ve allready read what HT said.
Trying to get HT to coad out the HO? Not gonna happen.
Trying to get people to quit HOing? Not gonna happen.
Trying to keep me ...errr folks from whining when they get HOed? Not gonna happen.
Trying to get your post count up? OK, I`ll give ya that one. The rest of it you`re just peein in the breeze. :D
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I only ever go for the HO/front quarter shot if the other guy can't get his guns on me. This includes if he is trying to avoid it. It sounds harsh, but if a guy is going to give me an easy shot with no risk to myself i'll take it. If it looks like he's gonna attempt to HO me i'll dodge it.
Exactly.
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Originally posted by Knite
I hate to say it, but your biggest complaint has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with the people in it.
Well said Knite and with that in mind - Its never going to change. If some of you are looking for some code of honor or chivalry in the Main Arena of an online game, you are looking in the wrong place. Once in awhile it shows itself but it is a rarity and should not be expected. You can try to avoid the HO as much as possible but there are instances when you cannot. Personally I don’t see a problem with it. If I have to HO to save a countrymen or a squad mate so be it. Lately I try to avoid it if the situation allows in order to test my skills but my overall goal is to kill the enemy as quick and efficiently as I can, not relish on how I did it.
Side Note - Jackal1 - also well said - Pure Truth!
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It doesn't take two to HO. If I hear one more person say that I'm gonna sick Fubar on ya.
:mad:
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Originally posted by Stang
If I hear one more person say that I'm gonna sick Fubar on ya.
ok - hehe - "THAT"
Coincidently two planes (A & B) merge. A goes for the HO and B manuevers to avoid the HO. A is still able to achive a guns solution and kills B. One plus One still equals TWO. Although it is impossible according to AH virtual laws of physics but I'm sure there are a few here who if they could, would HO themselves. All it takes is "One with Intent to HO" not two.
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It’s a good topic! Make's people think, I know HT isn’t going to do anything about it. Can’t we voice our opinion?
If you didn’t play AW you have no idea what a world would be like without the HO. Talk and talk about the ho but if have never played in a game that it doesn’t happen. That was my first gripe and is to this day after making the transition from AW to AH. I have been on both sides and just dislike Allot of the Ho shots in this game. Also I am one not to call out you HO'ed me on 200 I just think it takes away from the game play. I also think that the codec for AW front shots was way too large. What I do like is AH defection shots when you do have a little window our advantage that aw didn’t have.
BTW shawk is going to teach this old dog some new tricks about the ho..
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Originally posted by Stang
It doesn't take two to HO. If I hear one more person say that I'm gonna sick Fubar on ya.
:mad:
It take two to HO ... there ... :p
If there was just one ... then who in the hell are ya gonna HO ?
An HO is an HO only when BOTH aircraft have a guns solution on each other.
If the other guy can shoot you ... and you can't shoot him and he shoots ya ... you HAVE NOT been HOed.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It take two to HO ... there ... :p
If there was just one ... then who in the hell are ya gonna HO ?
An HO is an HO only when BOTH aircraft have a guns solution on each other.
If the other guy can shoot you ... and you can't shoot him and he shoots ya ... you HAVE NOT been HOed.
Damnit Slappy hehe...
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"If you didn’t play AW you have no idea what a world would be like without the HO. "
And if you played AW then you know how absolutely ridiculous and arcade-like a world without consequence from frontal shots and complete lack of collisions is.
Pah_toooey.
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Originally posted by thrila
lobotomy? i had colonic irrigation written down. You evil troll dedalos, i really should have suspected but i gave you the benefit of the doubt heheh.
We can try it in DA if you like, i'll even fly the mossie. :) ph33r teh mozzar!!
It will be funny if you set me on fire with the HO though.:D
:rofl It is scheduled. I did not have the lobotomy yet. I am not creazy to go HO with a mossie. Can't you fly a C202? (It will make it easyer to prove my point)
:D
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Does anyone remember the thing, about the HO posts being funny cause no matter how many times you explain you are not talking about HOs at the merge, people will continue to explain to you how to avoid a HO at themerge? :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Well if you're not on their 6 after the merge you deserve to die.:D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It take two to HO ... there ... :p
If there was just one ... then who in the hell are ya gonna HO ?
An HO is an HO only when BOTH aircraft have a guns solution on each other.
If the other guy can shoot you ... and you can't shoot him and he shoots ya ... you HAVE NOT been HOed.
If the other guy can shoot you ... and you can shoot him but don't because you'd rather avoid the inevitable mutual damage but you fly at him to avoid giving him an angles shot and he shoots you anyway ... you HAVE been HOed.
Cop: "So, is this the guy who mugged you?"
Victim: "Yep, that's him!"
Cop: "OK, you're both under arrest."
Victim: "Both of us? But he's the one that mugged ME!"
Cop: "Whatever. It takes two people for a mugging to occur."
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If you didn’t play AW you have no idea what a world would be like without the HO. Talk and talk about the ho but if have never played in a game that it doesn’t happen. That was my first gripe and is to this day after making the transition from AW to AH. I have been on both sides and just dislike Allot of the Ho shots in this game. Also I am one not to call out you HO'ed me on 200 I just think it takes away from the game play. I also think that the codec for AW front shots was way too large. What I do like is AH defection shots when you do have a little window our advantage that aw didn’t have.
What you want to do is dumb down the game due to your lack of either skill, which I doubt, or more likely, discipline. This thread doesn't make people think I'm quite sure, IMO it's just another thread about HO's, one of hundreds if not even more. This horse has been dead for years but people just keep beting the poor little thing up. Doesn't matter how many threads you or anyone else create about this topic, people who want to HO, will still HO. Avoid them, it's not that difficult you know.
Not quite sure how long you have been in AH, juding from your posts (bad source of course) it's not all that long. But please, take a minute and think about this... instead of whining (yes this was another HO whine) take a day or two to think about how to avoid the HO, ask any good pilot in AH what they do in the case of a HO, specially the merge HO's, how they avoid, what moves they make etc, try it yourself.
HTC thankfully won't do anything about HO's, if they did, it would probarly drive more people away from the game (pretty much everyone who has been here a couple of years or more) than they would get in to the game.
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Originally posted by Tabasco
If the other guy can shoot you ... and you can shoot him but don't because you'd rather avoid the inevitable mutual damage but you fly at him to avoid giving him an angles shot and he shoots you anyway ... you HAVE been HOed.
Cop: "So, is this the guy who mugged you?"
Victim: "Yep, that's him!"
Cop: "OK, you're both under arrest."
Victim: "Both of us? But he's the one that mugged ME!"
Cop: "Whatever. It takes two people for a mugging to occur."
Tabasco sauce is to be used as an additive or to complement ... you are not supposed to drink it straight out of the bottle ... it causes drain bamage.
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uhm...
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Don't need 50 different topics regarding HO's. Don't use quantity of argument as a substitute for quality of argument.
I will not use view our post on the bbs anymore. This was different topic of people that i respect. if anyone needs to contact me please fill free to email me at. Its your sight and i will play by the rules.
ronny.nelson@pruowens.com