Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on February 23, 2005, 02:22:19 AM
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PART 1
As I was flying today, I met a low La-7 in a Bf109G-6. He was trailing about 5~6 guys behind him at 1500yd+. I had about 3~4k alt advantage on him, saw him coming from my low 12, so I tried to time my Split-S so I landed right in the firing range.
Was too bad that I have terrible gunnery. I landed at about 400d behind him and as I estimated, got only about 1 second window, which I missed. As I saw the range tick from 400 to 600 to 800.. I thought to myself, "boy, it sure friggin' pays to be flying in a 380mph deck speed plane".
I had a chance and I blew it. But the "...friggin' pays..." part I thought to myself, keep lingered.
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I sure as heck don't pay zilch when I want to fly a Bf109G-10. Neither does anyone who runs like a girl in their Runstangs, Hunstangs, and Typhoons, and especidally La-7s.
According to Whels's OTD speed records:
OTD Speeds on WEP
* La-7: 380
* Fw190D-9: 375
* Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
* P-51D: 367
* Bf109G-10: 366
The five fastest planes do well over 360mph at deck. These five planes are literally impossible to catch when a guy with even the slightest hint of SA starts to run with a headstart. Only when someone else is around in one of those same five planes with a significant alt advantage, will he be able to run it down, and often after a long chase even in that case.
How about the planes that are next on the list, which can be considered pretty much 'competitive' in terms of speed/performance in the MA?
OTD Speeds on WEP
* F4U-1: 358
* P-51B: 358
* F4U-1D: 357
* F4U-1C: 356
* La-5FN: 356
* Yak9U: 355
* P-38J: 350
* Fw190A-8: 349
* Fw190F-8: 349
* P-38L: 344
* Ki-84-Ia: 344
The above point on the OTD speed list is probably what can be at least 'loosely' be determined as being really "MA-Competitive". Most of the listed planes above have a good solid trait in one category, and is also fast enough to survive in typical hectic MA conditions. The next batch of the listed planes starts with P-47s, with 344mph deck speed on WEP, but dinky acceleration and heavy maneuvering... and it continues to what we would call the "mid-war planes" category.
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All of the planes listed above are free. Most of them are competitive. However, even so, most of the preferred choices of the arena are still limited to the top 5 planes.
For me, it was quite interesting to watch what would happen when the Ki-84-Ia was introduced, because judging from my own experience in that bird, and judging by the specs it boasted, it was to be one of the most influential planes that could reshape the tendencies of MA plane usage. The initial implementations was a bit of a letdown, but the quick patch made it one of the most potent birds in MA combat.
Great acceleration, great climb, superb handling, excellent roll, good firepower, pure turn performance matching that of a Spit9, super low-speed performance matching that of a P-38, good overal visibility(except the frontal canopy bars)...and it's still as almost as fast as a La-5FN!
Basically, this Ki-84-Ia we have is the "have-it-all" plane. A plane with almost no weaknesses. However, to everyone's surprise(as shown in previous threads about why the Ki-84 was unpopular), it didn't really catch on.
We saw the rise of the Ki-84-Ia in many other MMOG flight sims, different from AH but still sharing many simular traits. It was a 'uber' plane in Fighter Ace series, used by the Banzai squad, hated by everyone. It was 'uber' in War Birds, it was 'uber' in AW, and it is 'uber' in IL2/FB. That thing puts La-7s and Yak-3s to shame in IL2/FB.
So, howcome its not as popular here?
That got me thinking.
The only difference between our Ki-84 and "their" Ki-84, is that both can do the same things, except "theirs" is about 15~20mph faster at deck. In other words, "their" Ki-84 is the Ki-84 which does all of the stuff it can do in AH2, but is faster than Mustangs and can catch up with La-7s.
It's an interesting analogy. The MA plane usage is divided into two groups for the most part. At one side, there is the "dragsters". The Typhoon, P-51D, La-7, Bf109G-10, and the Fw190D-9. It's pretty obvious why these are popular. But the other group, is made up of Spit5, Spit9, and N1K2. Among them the Spit9 saw a steady drop in usage, while the new 16+ boost Spit5 usage actually increased, in this new MA with new gunnery that made "speed = king".
There are about 10~15 planes I can count out, as being "balanced" as "in-betweens" between those two groups, and yet none of them are really comparable when it comes to popularity. The Ki-84-Ia of AH2, is one of them.
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PART 2
So, why am I bringing this up when the thread is titled, "Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H"?
It was to try and show that in the MA we fly in, most of the community is made up of average people. And average people, really don't like "Balanced Planes".
They like one of the two extremes. These average people have roughly 1-to-1 kill/death ratio, and they have two different ways of keeping it at that level.
1) Fly the fastest plane they like, either the "Allied" type, or the "Luftwaffe" alternative. And fly around for long. These people don't die much, but as "timid" as they are, they also don't get much kills.
2) Fly the easiest handling planes with good firepower and acceptable speed. Fly a Spit9 or a Spit5 or a N1K2, and follow the fast planes around. When a furball forms, jump in, kill some planes, and then get shot down immediately. These guys die a lot, but they also make quick kills before dying.
Either way, the "balanced" middle point is a very hard thing to grasp for most people. Try a Ki-84-Ia for instance. You see a furball forming. This plane has some good speed, but its not as safe as a La-7, obviously. However, it's also not really as easy as a Spit5 in killing stuff quickly. It's competitive enough to go for all out battles, but there's no assurance that you would be walking out of it alive.
You need to carefully measure the situation and choose how to engage in these 'in-between' planes, and this is something the 'average' can never do. If they can do that, they aren't 'average' at all.
This is the reason why the 'in-between' planes can never gain too much popularity. It's like the "P-38" jokes of old times. Jack of all trades, Ace of none. It takes someone who can do everything to fly these planes.
So, in judging the two key ingredients that make up popular planes, most of the perked planes I am requesting to be unperked, do not have what it takes to be so popular as to seriously unbalance the arena.
So, if we put the list of the "competitive MA planes" together(the Spit5, N1K2, and Spit9 is left out on grounds of being in the 'different category' of MA popularity):
OTD speeds on WEP
* Tempest Mk.V: 386 (perked)
* La-7: 380
* F4U-4: 378 (perked)
* Fw190D-9: 375
* Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
* P-51D: 367
* Bf109G-10: 366
* Ta-152H-1: 361 (perked)
* Spitfire Mk.XIV: 358 (perked)
* F4U-1(A): 358
* P-51B: 358
* F4U-1D: 357
* F4U-1C: 356(perked)
* La-5FN: 356
* Yak9U: 355
* P-38J: 350
* Fw190A-8: 349
* Fw190F-8: 349
* P-38L: 344
* Ki-84-Ia: 344
If we look at it this way, its hard to understand why those some planes are perked, or at least, at such horrendously high prices.
* Is it on grounds of 'historical rarity'? Well, the 3-gun La-7 was probably the rarest of all the planes in the above list, and yet it dominates the arena.
* Is it on grounds of 'performance'? Most of the perked planes are still slower than the unperked ones! The Spit14 climbs like a Bf109G-10 but has only half of its WEp duration. It's still not as fast unless it goes to 25k. The Ta152H is a burden at best, when compared to the much lighter Fw190D-9 which does everything better except in pure firepower and some turn performance.
* Is it on grounds of 'MA effectiveness'? Well, the F4U-1C which once saw 20% usage, was perked on that grounds. It was also a rare plane, and there is good reasoning when one points out that if the F4U-1C with quad-Hizookas are free, the F4U-1 and the F4U-1D would go extinct. However, this plane is perked at only 8 points.
* Or, is it on grounds of 'superior balance'? As mentioned in the first part of the thread, there are very many planes with 'superior balance' of speed and maneuverability. If it's not super fast, or super easy to fight in, people don't want it.
So basically, when all of the '44~'45 late-war planes are totally free to be indulged, it is great deal unfair and unreasonable to see some of the planes above in the list, which are by no means superior to anything else, especially in terms of typical MA-type multi-engagement, perked, and perked so highly in their cost.
Why can't we have a 378mph F4U-4 running amok in the arena? We already have a 380mph 'pure fighter' La-7, and 370mph 'greased pig JABO' Typh running around free!
Why can't we have a 358mph Spit14 running around the arena for free? When we have a perk-free 366mph Bf109G-10(which is actually modelled to Bf109K-4 specs)??
Why can't we have a 361mph Ta152H-1 for free in the arena, when 375mph Fw190D-9s which do everything better, are always there?
For the sake of argument, let's say these F4U-4, Ta152H-1, Spit14, is indeed 'uber'. But are they as 'uber' as the La-7? Or, at least, are they so much 'more uber' than the La-7 that the La-7 is totally free, but the F4U-4 is perked at 50, Spit14 at 60, and Ta152 at 20? The Tempest at 75??
If we already have uber planes in the arena thats for free, and then we let loose some of the perked uber rides for free, will these 'new ubers' totally replace the 'old ubers'? Are these planes so powerful?
Or, will they coexist with the old ubers, and as a result, actually increase diversity?
Way back, I've suggested a NPA which was comprised of two parts. One was perking the previously unperked latewar rides, and the other was lowering the perk prices of over-priced planes to that same level. I've faced many critics who emphasized on that first part, but somehow none of them ever looked at the possibilities of unperking, or very lowly perking the planes that were severely heavily perked.
So, this, is my new suggestion.
If you, we, don't want to perk more late-war planes by limiting the choices, then let's go the other way. Let's unperk the overpriced planes so they can coexist with the current planes.
The MA won't be pushed back into the '43 arena like I have originally visioned, but at least it will remain a full late-war arena now. With more diversity of 'latewar uber planes' to choose from, instead of the same pool again and again. All these Typhs, Run-ninetiess, Runstangs, and Run-oh-nine's and Lgays around ticking you off?
Then, why not add Spit14s, Ta152s, F4U-4s into that equation? What have we got to lose?
So, my new set of perk suggestions:
*Set1
Tempest: 15 points
Ta152H: free
Spit14: free
F4U-4: free
F4U-1C: 5 points
*Set2 (if, somebody thinks that Set1 is too lenient..)
Tempest: 30 points
Ta152H: 8 points
Spit14: 8 points
F4U4: 8 points
F4U-1C: 5 points
Unperk the perked planes, or at least significantly lower their prices please!
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I don't have the patience to either run from or chase down people, so that's all fine with me.
The tempest, however, does need to be perked - at least at 30. The thing is a monster... put aside the ridiculously good flight characteristics for a second. The thing has quad 20mm lazers mounted on the wings. These things aren't just hizookas... they're next-gen UBERhizookas. The last thing we need is people deeming tempests expendable (at 15 perks, who gives a damn? I can make that on 1/4 a tank of gas in an early 109) and jousting with those Golly-geen lazers. Getting hit with those things is similar to being kicked in the balls by an angry donkey.
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I support your agenda, but I would aproach the situation from opposite direction: more perks, not less!
Perk also the following planes:
* La-7
* Fw190D-9
* Typhoon Mk.Ib
* P-51D
* Bf109G-10
Not much, but just a few perks. That should encourage people to fly other planes as well. All of these planes have almost similar sub-types that would stay unperked... La-5, lots of FW:s, hmm no tiffies (maybe keep tiffie unperked), P-51B, lots of 109:s.
btw. This suggestion comes from a person who has flown 109G-10 most of the time ;)
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Hehe... Blau, that was exactly what the old NPA was about. It started out with that exact approach, before I found out that how many people can get so amazingly touchty when I suggested their 'favorites' should also be perked at 3~5 points.
So, I went to the opposite alternative.
If everybody wants to fly their '44~'45 'dragsters' for free, fine. Then let's increase the free choice of 'dragsters' available.
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I don't think you understand why the spit14 is good.......
I don't think you appreciate how easy perks are to have and keep for some people .......
I just think you don't understand how a good pilot can use these planes.......
f4u4 is only plane excepet chog where i've landed 20 kills with no rearm......
I routinely I land 7+ kills when I take up a tempest
a spit 14 can out zoom almost anything ... it just keeps climbing .. do you understand that??
This is one thing that makes p38L great ... it can go up up up ... or a ki-84 ........ I really don't think you understand .... .
as for the 152 it is uber and rare and very hard to fly...... so is the 262.......
I really fail to see these points as valid .... it would make more sense to perk more planes by your reasoning, but not haveing a free P51D is not a good idea in a flight sim :D.... and if you perk the other's it's only fair to perk the 51D ...
the point is the current system was well thought out if you think about it ....... HTC just didn't say ... oh we will perk this, this and this ..... it's pretty well thought out IMHO
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Seems to me that the Tempest Mk. V shouldn't even be perked. It's a pig at low altitude... Fast, yes, but other than that, it's a sitting duck. It's one hell of an easy kill if you're coming in from a dive.
The F4U-1C shouldn't be perked. It doesn't even have the performance of a P-51B. Sure it has firepower, but it comes at a very high risk. You *really* have to know how to fly the F4U-1C to get anything out of it.
The Ta-152H-1 shouldn't be perked. Why's this? Well, it totally out-classes everything except the Me-262 above 40,000 feet... However, nobody flies that high! Below 20,000 feet, it's a sitting duck. Its only advantages are speed at altitude, massive firepower, generous maneuverability up high, outstanding dive performance, and exception energy retention in the vertical. But for the most part, it's just impractical. Since you can hardly find any targets at an altitude above 8,200 feet, you still have a high risk of being raped by La-7's or even Typhoons down low. Take the perk price off.
The Spitfire Mk. XIV: This series shouldn't be perked, period. Whether it's the model we already have, or the F Mk. XIVe, it's got glaring disadvantages. It can't take much damage. It's got extremely short range. It has limited ammunition. It does have a lot of speed and great agility, but still... Take the perk price off. It's not an easy plane to fly, and it's definately not forgiving.
The F4U-4: Well well... This plane is in the same class as the vaunted P-51D Mustang. It does exceed it one area, though: It's just plain faster. The P-51D rolls, turns, and generally handles better. It also has greater range, as well as better ground attack capabilities. It's also a much more forgiving aircraft, and is far less stall-prone than the F4U-4. So why is this plane perked? If we're to have a perked Corsair, add the F4U-4C. Sure, it only entered service nearing the final weeks of the war, but it did see combat. If we're to get the F4U-4C, take the perk price off of the F4U-4 and make the -4C a ~15 perk point model.
That's where I stand on the currently perked aircraft...
...And these are the aircraft that should be perked.
La-7 (3x Berezin-20): Who's gonna argue? Superb agility, outstanding speed, great climb, and is a very forgiving plane to fly. It's also got what is probably the best autocannon in the game. These things alone make the 3x B-20 La-7 a perk-worthy plane. Verdict? About 15 perk points.
Fw 190D-9: Currently, it is a vastly under-modeled plane. Once 2.03 is released, that will change, and this bird will be mightier than even the Mustang. It doesn't have the range or ground attack options of the P-51D, but it's just such a wonderful plane to handle. It's very easy to fly, it's got a good deal of armor, very powerful guns, it's extremely fast, and it can out-roll almost anything in Aces High. The Dora will be abused and potatod for all it's worth, unless a perk price is issued. About 10 perks should do the trick.
...So that would make just two perk planes. And rightfully so --- A Spitfire Mk. XIV that can't even perform at the level of the Spitfire Mk. V we have at low altitude shouldn't be perked, just as a very difficult, bullish F4U-4 Corsair shouldn't. And tell me why a Tempest, of all planes, deserves a perk price. It's sluggish and a bastard to fly, and can be picked off from almost any diving plane with relative ease.
What I'm really trying to say is this: A new system needs to be worked out. A rolling planeset makes more sense than a perk-based system... It would restrict players to an extent, but the payoff would be phenominal. Just think: No more complaining about squads only using "dweeb planes". No more complaining about being totally out-classed by a group of swarming La-7's. It would actually level the playing field.
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Can anyone think of some other games where the player gets the best rides or guns right from the beginning? Do e.g. the quakers whine that they want to have the BFG all the time because they come from a BFG-clan? ( = the old whine "we are a p-51D squadron... blah blah").
Progress and rewards from good playing are what make a game intresting. If one want to fly a certain perked plane... make them work to get to and to stay in that plane.
Encouraging variation is never a bad thing.
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Exactly, which is why a Rolling Planeset would be such a good idea. Who gives a damn about the whining morons like you described? I think we'd be better off without idiots who only know how to fly one plane and one plane only.
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So Mane, you're saying the F4U-4, Spit14, and Ta152H-1 should be respectively perked at 50, 60, and 20, because it is that much superb a plane that deserves such a high cost when compared to the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typhoon and the Bf109G-10?
Oh, and btw, how many times you've upped a F4U-4 or a Spit14 in the midst of a low-alt fight and landed 9+ kills while not doing any of the timid BnZ stuff?
A salute your skills, Mane, but surely even you have to admit that when you take up a 50~60 point plane for a spin, you think twice before you enter a low-alt furball and fight at equal terms with the enemy planes around you, without any particular regards to advantage in alt, numbers, or quality of pilots around.
I've seen you jump into the enemy fray in a P-38, often outnumbered, but still fight to the last to save a friendly and manage the fight to go on. I've also seen you in Tempests, which I humbly must point out you fly it nothing like you would fly a P-38.
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I wouldn't even dare step foot 10 miles from a furball in a perk plane. Except for the Ta-152H-1, of course. That thing is a monster if you use it right.
Still, it's really not a perk candidate. It's got such terrible low-alt performance... I mean, why bother even flying it half the time? Take the perks off... We need a system overhaul!
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Personally, I'm not much intrigued in the RPS, but I'm not against it either. But I admit that this is because my favorite planes are Bf109s, and the 109s served in the war since '39 to the very end in '45.
However, things could be different for people who like P-38s(not available 'til '42), P-51s(not available 'til '44), or Yak-9s(not available 'til '43).
So I fully sympathize with the rejections concerning the RPS. This would be a good thing if AH started out that way from the very beginning, but people are so much used to flying their favorites that its really very hard to even merely suggest a slight limitation on it, even on the grounds of better gameplay.
So, then, if everybody understands so well how deprived they feel when someone wants to 'take away' or 'perk' their P-51s or La-7s, then they should feel the same way towards some people who love Spit14s or F4U-4s as their "ultimate RAF ride" and "ultimate USN ride" respectively.
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But then, remember what happened with the FM overhaul when AH2 was released? The idiots wouldn't quit whining, even though their precious P-51D was finally modeled correctly. They wanted their ultimate uber killing machine. They didn't want realism.
They discovered that they actually sucked at flying the Mustang, and that they were absolute aces when flying an unbalanced megaplane.
My point is, things *have* to change. An RPS system really wouldn't be bad. Think of it rolling every week --- A new day, a new, expanded planeset. And when most people are on (Friday-Saturday), they get to fly their favorite planes.
It's not quite a win-win, but it has major advantages over the perk system, and it seems to me we'd be better off with the RPS.
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The people who take-off and engage in a low alt fight near their own field have them selves to blaim for getting killed without getting kills. They wouldn't get any more kills in a Tempest then in a Spit 5.
When you bring a plane into a furball you will most likely die, doesn't matter wether it is fast or not if you don't know how to fly it.
I agree with lowering the perk cost some for them all, but unlike you, I don't think it is about the plane, it's about the pilot.
Give a n00b or even an average pilot a Tempest and throw him into a furball he won't do much better then in a Spit 5 or 9 simply because he can't fly it.
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I never said it wasn't about the pilot. I do think that the pilot makes more of a difference than the plane.
Still, my point stands. An RPS system would be far better than the current system we have. It would make a truly level playing field, ripe with diversity.
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Was commenting on Kweassa's first post, not any of yours Fruda :)
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Someone sometimes suggested a Rolling Perk Set.... all planes would be always available, but the better planes would at first cost more (while only the weekest would be free), eventually costs would get lower and more planes would become free and in the end of the roll all planes could be free.
Another thing:
What are the perk points for if not for using them to get planes? Why are some people so afraid to use perks? IMO perks could be reset after each tour :) Thus there would be no point to save them :)
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used by the Banzai squad, hated by everyone.
Hey Kweassa, i was member of the BANZAI Squad back in FA2.5 before i switched over to AH. Actually we were not liked by other countries because we usually put up a combined afford while others ran around and were just out to kill planes. Teamplay simply overcame stat-queens.
Had nothing to do with the KI84, though it was a great ride, the absolute dominant dogfighter back in FA2.5 was the Spit14. Every K/D dweeb almost exclusivly flew GB and Spit14.
The LA7 was well know in FA2.5 for its great low alt performance.
And when i went to crack the 10+ K/D i switched over from the KI84 to the FW190D12.
I cannot say how the situation is now in FA3 because i absolutely hate the views in there and refused to play it after trying it out for a weekend.
For the MA i agree with BlauK, the Top5 non-perked planes should be slightly perked.
Somewhere between 5-15 points.
At the same time i would unperk the TA152, cause at the combat alts in MA it is way less effective than the current Top5 non-perked.
Additionally the current perk prices for the F4U-4, the Spit14 and the Tempest could to slightly lowered.
As Wilbus pointed out, it's more about the pilot than the plane. The ones that know how to exploit the strength of the above planes will happily spent some perk points to fly those birds, because they will not have a problem to aquire them back.
I almost exclusively fly the D9 currently and stockpile fighter perks en masse even though i fly the bird not really careful.
If i had to spend around 10 perks to keep flying it, the perks for me would atleast have some worth, which they currently don't have.
The only problem that may arise out of perking all those planes, might be thebuildup of a small "elite" group within the MA. Those pilots that have a clue and can afford it to almost endlessly fly the low perkies.
They will be able to survice almost any furball and dominate areas were only the "average" crowd is around.
At the same time many of them might start to avoid fighting against other low-perkies, cause they know that almost any guy flying such a plane has atleast an idea of what he's doing and this leads to a new level of timidity.
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so what would you spend your perk points on?
id rather EVERYTHING was perked from 1942 onwards, even if it was just 1 perk.....that would reduce suicide HO tards wouldnt it?
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Oh, and btw, how many times you've upped a F4U-4 or a Spit14 in the midst of a low-alt fight and landed 9+ kills while not doing any of the timid BnZ stuff?
The wonderful thing about a furball is that generally speaking everyone who is playing on the deck, have no advantage other than their skills they might have.
If you enter a low alt furball and expect the plane to fight its way in and out, you are going to die.
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those who dont play by the furball rules are the winners .
noppop
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You forget that the Spit14, Hog-4 and Ta152 have exceptional medium and high altitude performance, not to mention superior armament to that of the la7 and ki84 ..and equivalent to the p-51.
By unperking those planes you'll turn the MA from being ruled by the medium to low altitude high speed planes, to being ruled by planes who have high speed and high performance at all altitudes.
LA7 gang would migrate to these new rides...and then you'd have tempests and f4u-4's running away from you at 20k instead of on the deck.
Same deal. Except the MA gets a hell more annoying :P
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Good thought Kweassa.
THere is of course more that counts than just OTD speed, - compare Tempest with lala at 25K for instance, - or them guns.
Our Spit XIV is a bit of an underdog AFAIK, it will get outclimbed to 20K by a 109G2 for instance, and there may still be some issues with top speed, not sure there.
I always spend my perks by buying a perk plane and darting into some action from which I do not return alive, and I miss the absence of more of such.
I vote for set 2!!!!!! ;)
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First, great topic, this is going to be a 300 post thread =)
Second, you never see spit 14s, f4u4s or 152s in the main arena. I know they are uber at high alts, but I think in 3 mos. I've seen one fight take place over 15k and as I watched from 10k lower, in 30 sec. they were on the deck. I think the perk values should be lowered if not dropped for these. Just to see more of them in the arena.
Third, the tempest is the best all around bird in my opinion. If you don't think so, watch Morph's video of Mane flying one. He sold me on it one night when I tried to pick him on the deck in a tempest, he evaded, rolled back over (at this point I knew who it was and muttered a few 4 letter words) ran me down and destroyed my tail with those huge guns. I tried a few sorties in that plane and flew it right into danger... had one 9 kill run where I just lost a flap. You keep your speed and you are mostly untouchable. Even walked out of a 4 on 1 on the deck with all 4 kills in the bag.
Fourth, I don't think I've seen mane hesitate going into a furball on the deck with a perk ride. He can get belligerent on occasion on 200, and for that I'll give him crap, but every time I run across him in the MA, he is surrounded by red.
Still think the f4u1C should remain with a small perk value since it is basically the D with cannons. I think if you unperked this, you'd never see a D model. Especially if the only difference was an ENY of 5 vs. an ENY of 20
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I can't comment on most of the planes on your list Kweassa, but I have been flying both the F4U-1C and the F4U-4 a lot this tour, and they both definately need to be perked. I think the -4 is a candidate for the best prop pane in the game. I am finding it a lot more potent than the AHI version.
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If I recall, perk determination is multi-factored....and not necesarily which plane is more uber or fastest on deck. I personnally don't worry what others fly, I just try to adapt how I fly what I am flying against other planes.
I figure if HT thinks the arena is getting out of balanced, he will adjust perks accordingly. I have no problem with current perk list, values & don't see main need to add/detract from current perks planes.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
So Mane, you're saying the F4U-4, Spit14, and Ta152H-1 should be respectively perked at 50, 60, and 20, because it is that much superb a plane that deserves such a high cost when compared to the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typhoon and the Bf109G-10?
Oh, and btw, how many times you've upped a F4U-4 or a Spit14 in the midst of a low-alt fight and landed 9+ kills while not doing any of the timid BnZ stuff?
A salute your skills, Mane, but surely even you have to admit that when you take up a 50~60 point plane for a spin, you think twice before you enter a low-alt furball and fight at equal terms with the enemy planes around you, without any particular regards to advantage in alt, numbers, or quality of pilots around.
I've seen you jump into the enemy fray in a P-38, often outnumbered, but still fight to the last to save a friendly and manage the fight to go on. I've also seen you in Tempests, which I humbly must point out you fly it nothing like you would fly a P-38.
Mane flies f4u4's down low in furballs all the time... :p
edit: and why would ANYONE fly a tempest like it's a p-38?
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This thread started as a complaint that the la7 is way faster then a 109 g6 on the deck and never really evolved from there.
I think that the perk system as it is works way better then the perk system you propose.
Sugesting that the Tempest has a weakness in that it can be shot down by a higher enemy about sums up all the points that have been made here against the varios perk planes.
I have watched 2 guys in Ta152s dominate a fight for 10 minutes, up and down the fur ball.
I have beaten an la7 in a tempest with 2k bombs on.
The hog 4 is an absolutly excellent plane.
The Hogc is perked for reasons that eveyone knows and I think would likly return imediatly if it was unperked.
The system as it is works fine. Moving the bar arround as to what is perked makes no sense to me.
I think follow the example of the Hog C and perk the 3 gun la7, add a perk 4 hispano spit V and a 4 cannon Ki84.
WW2 planes evolved to lots of speed and we shoudnt be supprised that this game shows the advantage of that.
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I vote with Fruda - bring on the Rolling plane set. WWII was from '39 - 45, right? Monday - 39'-'40 planes, Tuesday - 40 - 41 planes, etc. On Saturday or Sunday, all planes are available, just like at the end of the war.
I've read that there were still P-40 squads operating in 1945....so if you really wanted to fly a P-40b or a Spit I on Saturday or Sunday, you could.....but it would be your choice.
If we had a RPS, people would get more exposure to the less often used aircraft. I know, "it's my $14.95 and I fly what Iwant!", and i basically agree with that. BUT if that's the way the game was set up, and everybody had the same plane set to choose from, you could still CHOOSE which plane you would fly that day - just have a smaller selection to choose from.
HTC guarantees you the right to play the game for your $14.95 - not to have a huge plane set to choose from.
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Rolling plane sets suck.
The end result of a RPS is less variety not more.
Or does the thought of 9 out of 10 players in a 109F early war sound like fun ??
It isn't.
The perk system works as it should.
No matter what the rules, there will ALWAYS be the uber plane.
In this incarnation it's the Lag.
Change the rules and something else will take it's place with the resultant loss of variety.
Less restriction=more variety
That's something people fail to grasp.
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It still comes down to wanting the plane you want to fly, doing the things the other guy's plane does.
Yeah it's tough when I'm tooling around in a 38G and an LA7 blows by going light speed. But generally I can get out of his way and if he decides to turn fight in it, I've got a good chance to get him.
I could care less. Unperk em all, I'm not going to fly em anyway.
It's like the other night when I'm on the deck in my 38G and I have 3 Me262s trying to get me. THe challenge wasn't that I was going to shoot one of them down, but that I was going to not get shot down by them.
I won because they didn't get me.
Dan/Slack
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Rolling plane set is a great idea - just not in the MA -
Let the CT do it during the week and on weekends keep it how it is now.
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You forget that the Spit14, Hog-4 and Ta152 have exceptional medium and high altitude performance, not to mention superior armament to that of the la7 and ki84 ..and equivalent to the p-51.
So?
The P-51 has exceptional high alt performance. It's more maneuverable than the Ta152H at all alts, all axis, all speeds. And the P-51D is also faster than the Ta152H at all altitudes under 25k.
So can this perceived 'superiority' at an altitude range where no one in the MA ever flies at(25k+), be justified as grounds for perking the Ta152H-1, while the P-51D remains free, when the P-51D outperforms the Ta152H-1 in every way? Under that logic, the P-47D-40 should be perked at 20 points. I am very sure that the MA is totally infested with these superior performers, that people fly it so much to unbalance the arena. :rolleyes:
In the case of the Spit14 it would indeed become massively popular. But so what? We already have massively popular P-51s and La-7s everywhere. It doesn't hurt to add another massively popular plane to choose from, doesn't it?
By unperking those planes you'll turn the MA from being ruled by the medium to low altitude high speed planes, to being ruled by planes who have high speed and high performance at all altitudes.
The P-51D was free since day 1. If there is a "high-speed, high performance plane at all altitudes", the P-51D is it. However, somehow this 'Doomsday' you predict didn't seem to have arrived yet.
So why should it arrive now?
LA7 gang would migrate to these new rides...and then you'd have tempests and f4u-4's running away from you at 20k instead of on the deck.
So the average Joe in the MA, who doesn't know much than to either just pick a Spit and turn until they die, or pick a La-7 and joust until they die, or pick a P-51D and Bore-n-Zoom until they die... is suddenly gonna want to spend 10 minutes on climbouts to 25ks and be doing high flying? Just because the Spit14 and the F4U-4, or the Ta152H gets unperked?
Same deal. Except the MA gets a hell more annoying :P
Not to me.
At least the Typh, Fw190D-9, P-51D, Bf109G-10, La7s are gonna have more than just themselves to fear. Three new contestants to be exact. It's already pretty damned much annoying to see 5 planes running around amok in the MA.
So it can't hurt to change that to 8 planes running amok with split usage among planes and get at least some more variety in the air.
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I can't comment on most of the planes on your list Kweassa, but I have been flying both the F4U-1C and the F4U-4 a lot this tour, and they both definately need to be perked. I think the -4 is a candidate for the best prop pane in the game. I am finding it a lot more potent than the AHI version.
Gryffin, if somebody perks the La-7 at 50 points, its gonna suddenly feel like that plane definately did deserve some kind of perk all along. It's K/D will go over the rooftop. (at least, for prop plane standards)
Suddenly, all of the La-7's most powerful strengths, which nobody in the MA really cared to look at, is gonna come alive when it's used as a SA-oriented point-engagement plane.
Samething with the F4U-4.
You let it go free, and I guarantee after two months nobody is gonna complain about it. A hog that is as fast as a La-7? So what? Nobody in the arena knows how to fly hogs in the first place. Only the hog guys know how to fly the blue planes. (You're one of those hog guys!)
The only difference you would see is a lot of more F4U-4s running away like a girl, instead of just La-7s. Heck, why not?
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Originally posted by nopoop
Rolling plane sets suck.
The end result of a RPS is less variety not more.
Or does the thought of 9 out of 10 players in a 109F early war sound like fun ??
Yes, to me it would sound fun and something differetn from current "9 out of 10 players in La-7:s"
There could be just as much variety in set of earlier planes as there is in a set of late planes. In addition to that the change between sets would create a change.
With a Rolling PERK (not plane) Set the marginal "I-wanna-fly-my-La7-every-day" group couls also be satisfied and the could also use their perks for something.
Keeping early birds available while late birds dominate does not create variety... unless you count suicidal "bravery" as such. Giving the early birds a chance would create variety from current AcesHigh2 = WW2 in 1944-45.
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Originally posted by Overlag
so what would you spend your perk points on?
id rather EVERYTHING was perked from 1942 onwards, even if it was just 1 perk.....that would reduce suicide HO tards wouldnt it?
I like that idea. There was a definate performance difference between planes up to circa ~ 1943 and those afterward. A conscientiously scaled perk system at some arbitrary but logical point in production dates would make alot of sense, add variety and reduce the incidence of tactics that are detrimental to gameplay (ie: suicide porker/vulchers, HO artists). It doesn't matter if the perk cost is very low like the F4UC, just the psychology of having to PAY to fly a plane is enough to adjust their use subtley.
The perk system is a great idea and one area where I believe AH is superior to AW in terms of gameplay enhancements. If it has one fault it's not being used to it's maximum potential to positively effect overall gameplay in the MA.
Zazen
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This thread started as a complaint that the la7 is way faster then a 109 g6 on the deck and never really evolved from there.
No, Pongo. This thread started out from a complaint that the La-7 is free, but other planes of its peers, are not. There's a big difference. You should not have missed it.
I have watched 2 guys in Ta152s dominate a fight for 10 minutes, up and down the fur ball.
I've seen Steve and Wildthing in two high P-51Ds clearing an entire area of red guys.
I have beaten an la7 in a tempest with 2k bombs on.
I've beaten a Spit5 with an A6M5 with two bombs on it.
The hog 4 is an absolutly excellent plane.
So is the Fw190D-9 or the Bf109G-10.
The Hogc is perked for reasons that eveyone knows and I think would likly return imediatly if it was unperked.
Right. The C-hog stays perked in both of my suggestions.
The thing is, Pongo, you're looking at this from a single pilot's point of view, especially a GOOD pilot's point of view. You're one of those guys who exploit every ability an excellent plane has, and can even milk it out from planes that don't have any ability in the first place.
Exactly because of that, you fail to see flying styles, usage rates, and popularity values don't linearly evolve with either performance, balance, or pilot capability regarding that plane.
The favorites in the MA already, has just as much excellent traits as those which are perked.
A Bf109G-10 is untouchable as long as WEP lasts(and if the pilot has good SA). A La-7 is uncatchable low-alt performer if it has some kind of head-start(and if the pilot has good SA). A Fw190D-9 is the ulitmate "Hunstang", and is also uncatchable(and if the pilot has good SA).. and on and on and on with the "(if the pilot has good SA)" condition.
The really funny thing is, many people who have previously shown so much confidence in the pilot than the machine, suddenly turn 180 degrees opposite when it comes to unperking some planes. Suddenly the pilot factor is ignored, and the pure performance becomes so important.
If the F4U-4, Ta152H, Spit14 becomes unperked, will the 90% of the people in the MA suddenly go through some kind of mass mental evolution and use all those plane's strength to the maximum? Ofcourse not. The planes are unperked, but the people are the same.
The people who are doing the stupid stuff in P-51Ds and La-7s are going to be doing the same stupid things in F4U-4 or Spit14s or Ta152s. Except the Spit14 or Ta152 is too slow at deck to do stupid things in it and still get away with it!
The system as it is works fine. Moving the bar arround as to what is perked makes no sense to me.
The system is always fine before somebody changes it. Then it becomes finer.
I think follow the example of the Hog C and perk the 3 gun la7, add a perk 4 hispano spit V and a 4 cannon Ki84.
Perking more stuff and unperking more stuff, are actually the same things in terms of gameplay. Just different "visuals".
WW2 planes evolved to lots of speed and we shoudnt be supprised that this game shows the advantage of that.
I agree. And of the three main planes of Ta152, Spit14, and F4U-4, only the F4U-4 is matches the La-7's level in speed.
Ofcourse, you might say that high-alt speed is important, too. Except in that case, the Bf109G-10 is the fastest non-perked prop-plane in the entire plane-set. This certainly doesn't seem to do it any more fame than the La-7 is boasting at the MA.
Why?
Because, no matter how fast the G-10 is over the La-7 at 22k, the La-7 is still faster than the G-10 at 2.2k, and that's where it matters in the game.
So like you said, we shan't be surprised that this game shows the advantage of that. And while we're at it, let's also allow the other planes that are rare to see in the MA because of their inhibitions, also show their advantage in speed freely.
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Unperk em all. Let the AH gods/pilots sort em out.
Dan/Slack
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I would suggest perk all late war aircraft.... 5-10 pts each....
Reset perks each tour.....
(the whiners go well i cant fly my 262 day one of the tour...) Thats the point bub....
Having you earn your late war bird would be good.... It would put priority on landing kills... Some say (well then everyone gets timid and no one will engage...) well if that happens they arn't earning perks becuase they are not killing chit... ("goats make good eating" "attack attack...." whoops wrong game.. RTW... im brainwashesd.)
On top of that.. People are timid now... so claiming the arena will change due to perking latewar is moot.....
Ill tell you what give me the spit14 f4u4 for free youll wish you hadn't.... and the same for some other aces around here.
Those aircraft matchup well against anything including the la7... so dont unperk them.... The really problem i see was the introduction of the la7 at no cost ... Its a superplane (historically true..) But why they released this thing into the main with no cost imo is foolish... Most aces wont fly it.. I dont and I know many others who wont potato themselves on such a aircraft either.... la7 = easymode... Now if that was the intention of the programmers then just fess up ... I can tolerate "well the la7 is there for noobs" HTC is not a charitable establishment and i can understand this.. But whenever LA7 is brought up on these boards with HTC all there is deafening silence..
IMO going all the way back to beta, the la7 (its quality and usage) is game unbalancing just like the Chog.... But nothing was ever done about the la7..
hence the arena we have today.. (low la7 comes screaming at a base.. Kills somebody taking off extends and repeats unless another la7 or latewar monster with E build up runs them down....) Either A. fix field ack to cut them down at 50ft alt or B. perk the aircraft.... to deter use....
Thats my opinion, dont unperk anymore unbalancing aircraft (la7 is best example) adjust perks maybe but unperk no... if anything perk what you missed before even my beloved g10 death mobile if necessary..
DoctorYo
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Have one night a week with nothing perked. Be a nice change and it would be infrequent enough that people would look forward to it.
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Unbelievable !!!
I read two Walls-O-Text posts spewing all sorts of data and crap and only to get to the end that has absolutly no point or real conclusion.
You simply want to pour more acid into an already festering wound ... brilliant ... simply brilliant.
Your pissin' and moanin' and everybody is constantly pissin' and moanin' about the prevalence of the late war dragsters that we see now and you want to add more dragsters to the mix.
What you have failed to describe in all of that stuff you spewed out in 2 huge post is ...
What would the MA look like after ALL the Hell Hounds have been released !!!
Some thought was put forth towards the fact that if the CHog was not perked, then the -1 and the -D would become extinct.
Well, as far as I am concerned if this lame brained ****-a-mamey idea were to ever come to fruition, then HT just might as well get rid of ALL the early war machines cause what would be the sense of flying them at all.
This is by far the stupidest idea that I have ever seen presented in the last 3 years. Absolutly no logical thought process was exhibited or demonstrated at all ... typical knee-jerk emotional processing brought on by ...
As I saw the range tick from 400 to 600 to 800.. I thought to myself, "boy, it sure friggin' pays to be flying in a 380mph deck speed plane".
If your gonna think up of an idea ... think it ALL the way thru. You have to ask at least a 1000 "what-ifs" to yourself and answer everyone with a viable, logical, and fair conclusion before putting pen to paper.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Unbelievable !!!
I read two Walls-O-Text posts spewing all sorts of data and crap and only to get to the end that has absolutly no point or real conclusion.
You simply want to pour more acid into an already festering wound ... brilliant ... simply brilliant.
Your pissin' and moanin' and everybody is constantly pissin' and moanin' about the prevalence of the late war dragsters that we see now and you want to add more dragsters to the mix.
What you have failed to describe in all of that stuff you spewed out in 2 huge post is ...
What would the MA look like after ALL the Hell Hounds have been released !!!
Some thought was put forth towards the fact that if the CHog was not perked, then the -1 and the -D would become extinct.
Well, as far as I am concerned if this lame brained ****-a-mamey idea were to ever come to fruition, then HT just might as well get rid of ALL the early war machines cause what would be the sense of flying them at all.
This is by far the stupidest idea that I have ever seen presented in the last 3 years. Absolutly no logical thought process was exhibited or demonstrated at all ... typical knee-jerk emotional processing brought on by ...
As I saw the range tick from 400 to 600 to 800.. I thought to myself, "boy, it sure friggin' pays to be flying in a 380mph deck speed plane".
If your gonna think up of an idea ... think it ALL the way thru. You have to ask at least a 1000 "what-ifs" to yourself and answer everyone with a viable, logical, and fair conclusion before putting pen to paper.
What? It seems to me that you don't quite grasp the agenda of this topic.
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Oh but I do !!!
Please explain to me what you think I have missed.
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It still comes down to an underlying current of "I'm not doing as well as I should because......."
So put everyone in the arena in an LA7 with the same fuel load and ammo and whoever is standing at the end is the greatest AH pilot ever......
NO WAIT! That wouldn't work either because not everyone flies the same. You'd have guys wading into a mob, killing 15 of em and dying themselves while you'd have other guys throttled back above the fight cherry picking and avoiding any fight if possible in the hopes of living the longest.
Too many folks, are too focused on points, perks, K/D and rank, as if it means anything at all.
It's still the thirst for the "WTG!" after landing 15 vulches that drives the pack. There is nothing you can do to change it, other then quit worrying about it and fly the way you want to fly in the plane you like to fly.
As long as that is what drives the game, you'll see LA7s all over. So again I say unperk em all. I'll never fly em anyway and I just don't care what the other guy is driving.
I guess its the "Honch Mentality" that works for me. He takes that P40E of his out every time and could care less about what anyone else is flying. When he dies, he says nice job, and grabs another beer and another P40 and heads on out again.
It's the only way to approach the game as far as I'm concerned. Any other way just burns folks out worrying about stuff that really doesn't matter.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by BlauK
Yes, to me it would sound fun and something differetn from current "9 out of 10 players in La-7:s"
But 9 out of 10 players don't fly a La7. Not even close.
The RPS will put a whole lot more butts in the "plane of the day". That's how it works.
I did a count a few months back on one sortie. 21 different planes encountered counting both sides.
Early war in a RPS it would be more like 3.
That's not variety.
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Kweassa's agenda seems well hidden from many. What it really comes down to is that his beloved Ki is not as fast in AHII as he wants it to be. Were it as fast, he wouldn't bother posting this whiny drivel. Kweassa, were it as fast, it would be uber as you mentioned, so everyone would be in it instead of La7's. What's the difference? SOME plane has to be the fastest.
I have an idea you are sure to like:
Why not limit the plane set to just ONE plane? This way the arena would be balanced like you want and no plane woul dhave the advantage.
Fly the fastest plane they like, either the "Allied" type, or the "Luftwaffe" alternative. And fly around for long. These people don't die much, but as "timid" as they are, they also don't get much kills.
I fly a 51, die plenty, and when I'm not rusty from a 9 month layoff my kills per hour is as good more than 90% of the folks in the MA. In conclusion, your conclusions are full of baloney.
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I've seen some of HiTech's responces for why he won't do an RPS and why he likes the perk system where it's at now. Have any of you asked him if he would be willing to announce a limited time experiment of say 2 days out of one tour where he turns off the perk system for one night each. Advertise it so everyone can make plans to show up, and see how the prognosticators of its effects fair on their predictions?
Two nights would be kinda limited. It would have more of a party atmoshphere but, you would have feed back(screaming) on the BB afterward to villify or validate some of your assertions.
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It's like this Slap.
There's this patient with a huge wierd open wound that doesn't seem to be particularly lethal, but stinks like rotting pork. The patient doesn't seem to be in any kind of real pain either. However, the smell is unbearable and everybody hates it so much that they cuzz and whine within two mile radius of him.
So, I've suggested a pretty standard method of prescribing antibiotics and perhaps a few stimulants to help the wounds close.
However, it wasn't until that moment that I found out that the patient and the people nearby actually likes the wound. I'm pretty sure the aide will make it go away, except nobody wants new flesh growing up.
It was quite amazing experience - with the amount of whining going around about how things were so bad, how they wanted to quit living nearby that guy, and how every morning they meet starts with the same disgusting smell again and again.... one could have sworn that they hated the patient's wound and that smell.
Except, when somebody actually comes up with a possible treatment, they suddenly turn renegade and start to complain about how the doctors are ruining with their freedom of choice on what to smell. They want the smell to go away, without someone else stopping the smell artificially. It's like they are waiting for a medicine man to come by and suddenly make the smell go away one day.
So, in that case, I figured I can open up the wound some more, so the smell would fill the entire neighborhood and soon, the "smelliness" would become the norm, and nobody would be complaining.
...
So, change some words in the above story and you might actually grasp it.
ps) I never pissed and moaned about late-war planes themselves Slaps.
I pissed and moaned about how only SOME of them are showing MASSIVE usage, while SOME of them were perked senseless. There's a big difference. I don't care about the planes. I care about how much of them are mixed up in the arena. My interest is in how balance can be achieved and how more planes can be used, not in a certain era of plane type.
So, my heaven would be a largely '43 environment mixed up with occasional '44 and '45 planes. But as long as people hate that, I figure a full '45 mix-up won't be bad. It's the "mix" I want, not the year numbers.
At least, we have 3 more superplanes to choose from, don't we?
ps2) The MA is already hell. When you add "hell" to a "hell", it doesn't become "hell hell". It's still "hell". But at least, this hell's got more planes to choose from freely.
ps3) The jets or rockets need to be perked. But as for the props I say this and I'll say it again;
It's either perk them all, or perk them none. If some planes are perked on grounds of balance or performance, then all of its peers should be perked along with them. If not, vice versa.
Nothing justifies the Spit14, F4U-4, Ta152H-1 being perked so high when the other late-war planes go scot-free to be indulged.
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Reset perks each tour.....
No thanks. I have been saving perks for well over a year and a half for so I can go on a major 262 spree, or a Tempest spree. At this point I have over 16,600 fighter perks. When I hit 20,000 the fun begins! :D
I have flown a Hurricane IIC for along time specifically for farming perks. I could care less what plane I am up against, those quad Hispano's decimate all planes equally, without prejudice. :D
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Kweassa's agenda seems well hidden from many. What it really comes down to is that his beloved Ki is not as fast in AHII as he wants it to be. Were it as fast, he wouldn't bother posting this whiny drivel. Kweassa, were it as fast, it would be uber as you mentioned, so everyone would be in it instead of La7's. What's the difference? SOME plane has to be the fastest.
*Sigh* Read the post again Steve.
The Ki-84 was used as an example(I admit a long-winded one, yes) to show that a balanced plane with many mix of good traits just doesn't cut it out in the MA, and most people will prefer either one of extremes. How in the world did you read it as a Ki-84 agenda? I'm one of the guys that support our Ki-84 as opposed to some who want to see it flying at 427mph at alt and 360mph at deck.. remember?
I have an idea you are sure to like:
Why not limit the plane set to just ONE plane? This way the arena would be balanced like you want and no plane woul dhave the advantage.
Mix-up Steve, "mix-up".
I'm looking for a way to mix more flavors into the bowl without a certain ingredient sticking up to distinctly. This bowl we call "MA", has too much spice in it I thought.
So my initial idea was to bland it out a little. But people didn't like the fact that I was suggesting to "limit" some kinds of spice.
So, then another way of getting the "mix-up", is putting in other kinds of spice of the same level, so it would be spicey all around.
As it is, there are five main kinds of spices which are used, but another 3~5 spices that are held back for the reason that "if we add this, it becomes to spicey".
The problem is, the spice we have in the bowl is already whoopee too spicey so "too much spiciness is not good" arguments are illogical already. It's already damn spicey!
In that case, when you're a cook, the other alternative to kill that too much spiciness, without actually removing any spices, is to put more different spices in it so the certain group of spices that stuck out are relatively neutralized.
I wanted a '43-ish mix up arena. People don't like limitations to their planes.
So, I now want to unleash the perked, to act as counters for the havoc the late-war rides are wrecking, by giving them even more competition on their own level.
It's the mix-up I want Steve, the mix-up.
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Well, with that logic in mind, couldn't one argue that the hellcat is a comparably balanced plane, top end aside?
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Originally posted by nopoop
But 9 out of 10 players don't fly a La7. Not even close.
The RPS will put a whole lot more butts in the "plane of the day". That's how it works.
Early war in a RPS it would be more like 3.
That's not variety.
And 9 out of 10 would not fly 109F-4.. not even close ;)
It is all about how the sets are built. If there are not enough early birds for a set, start somewhere in between of early and middle... heck go directly for middle if that suits you better. Anything to make a change and give some chances and use for earlier planes as well!!!
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Yes!
But does the Hellcat get 10% of kills?
......
60+ planes in the plane set.
4~5 planes get total 50% of usage, each of those plane at 10% level. All of the rest 55~56 planes each get around 2%~3%.. some close to none... which totals up to the other half.
So at first, I wanted to kill that 50% usage of 5 planes by perking them, so they would come down to 4~5% each, and the reduced percentage would shift over and spread to previously unused plaens.
But, people hated perks implemented on their planes.
So, now I want to unperk the 3~4 perked prop planes, so its 8 planes getting 50% instead of 5 planes getting 50%.
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When the C Hog was perked, it was one of the fastest planes in the arena. There were no LGay7's, Doras, G10's etc. You could run like a scalded dog, with only the Runstang to worry about. The Typhie could be outmanueverd, if you flew the C Hog well, and a lot of people did.
The 20mm's made mincemeat out of a Panzer, one pass, one pop.
There were no Flack Panzies.
The Pony D was the LA7 of it's day. And the C Hog was extremely competative, that was why it was so popluar.
The arena has changed. You now have G10's, Doras, LA7's and Pony's, Spit 14's, Ki84's, these are all in plenty and will run you down, outclimb you, most will out turn you, they make you turn and bleed speed, and then get gang raped.
The Panzers now laugh at Hizooka's (as they should), Flack Panzies are gonna blow you out of the sky.
There is no longer a reason to perk the C Hog past maybe 2 points, if at all. Maybe just for tradition? They were once a terror, now they are except for the hizzooka's only average.
The F4U-4 would be more popular if it were unperked, as it would be quite competative. But it still won't be as good as the LA7 by any means. Again we may see more Hogs in the arena, is that bad per se? You will IMHO not see the usage reach 20%, not even reach the usage of the LA7 or the Spitties, they probably reach 25+% for the Spit5 and Spit9 combined. No one wants to perk the Spits, and for good reason.
As for perking the TA152, well it is just rediculous, the usage would only rise slightly. It really isn't a MA ride, sure there are always a few that will tear up thing with it, but most can't use it to it's advantage. I think is is a good thing be add more diversity to the plane set usage.
The Tempest is a real monster, you have to perk that one.
Any change in the perk system if any should add more freedom and choice, not more restrictions.
I would say that we only perk the Tempest and the Jets.
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Kweassa, the La7 is not a monster due its top speed, but because its acceleration.
Lets compare your list of planes. All 50% of fuel and near sea level. The test is done taking off, leveling at 100 or 200 feet and taking time from WEP ON (just taking off) till 350mph.
Tempest 1:20 (387 mph top speed)
La7 (2x20mm) 1:25 (380 mph top speed)
109G10 (1x20mm) 1:36 (366 mph top speed)
190D9 1:41 (375 mph top speed)
Typhoon 1:49 (370 mph top speed)
P51D 2:07 (367 mph top speed)
As you can see, only Tempest in on the same league than La7 at low alts.
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Kwe ...
You are ... prescribing antibiotics and perhaps a few stimulants to help the wounds close. ... you think !!! Do you have concrete evidence that your witch-doctoring will help or hinder ?
Except, when somebody actually comes up with a possible treatment, they suddenly turn renegade and start to complain about how the doctors are ruining with their freedom of choice on what to smell.
As far as I am concerned ... your treatment ... lends itself to making the wound stink even more. Again ... you have no research or data to back up your Rx and witch-doctor oils. Total assumption on your part without looking at the big/total picture.
My interest is in how balance can be achieved and how more planes can be used, not in a certain era of plane type.
If that is your ultimate outcome, then I stand by what I said before ... you have not completely thought this out to its final conclusion(s) which makes it completely flawed.
At least, we have 3 more superplanes to choose from, don't we?
This may balance out the array of superplanes, but will totally destroy other planes and their usuage ... particularly the early war rides.
ps2) The MA is already hell. When you add "hell" to a "hell", it doesn't become "hell hell". It's still "hell". But at least, this hell's got more planes to choose from freely.
Wrong ... you cant add something to something else without an increase. If you have 5 lbs of watermelon and I give you another 5 lbs of watermelon you now have more watermelon than you started with and it stinks twice as bad.
I watched "Constantine" last night and I want NO PART of hell ... especially hell hell.
You must stop practicing and manufacturing medicine without the appropriate licences.
Again .. you threw something against the wall ... thought it looked good, brought it to the table without real thought or consideration of ALL the consequences that may result.
Your logic is totally flawed ... try again.
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When the C Hog was perked, it was one of the fastest planes in the arena. There were no LGay7's, Doras, G10's etc. You could run like a scalded dog, with only the Runstang to worry about. The Typhie could be outmanueverd, if you flew the C Hog well, and a lot of people did.
The Chog got perked not long after I started playing AH. We already had the 190D-9, 109G-10, and the La-Cheesy-7. HTC added 800 lbs of wieght to the Chog after it was perked I think, that reduced its performance a bit. I think one of the reasons the Chog was perked was because of its quad hispanos and huge ammo load.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Yes!
But does the Hellcat get 10% of kills?
......
60+ planes in the plane set.
4~5 planes get total 50% of usage, each of those plane at 10% level. All of the rest 55~56 planes each get around 2%~3%.. some close to none... which totals up to the other half.
So at first, I wanted to kill that 50% usage of 5 planes by perking them, so they would come down to 4~5% each, and the reduced percentage would shift over and spread to previously unused plaens.
But, people hated perks implemented on their planes.
So, now I want to unperk the 3~4 perked prop planes, so its 8 planes getting 50% instead of 5 planes getting 50%.
This is where you are SO TOTALLY FLAWED in your logic.
Let those other monster loose and you will see ...
8 planes getting 75%-80% (if not higher) of all the kills, which in turn would lower the early war planes percentage to practically nil.
Why do you think for one second that if you unleash these other planes, the kill percentage would remain at 50%.
For the life of me, I can't understand why that just doesn't jump right off the page and smack you in the mouth.
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Originally posted by bustr
Have one night a week with nothing perked. Be a nice change and it would be infrequent enough that people would look forward to it.
During the last time of AH2 beta the perk plane were free ... I never killed so many tempest in my Typhoon/A8 :).
My proposal would be :
- Each tour is started with 100 perks (for example value have to fine tuned)
- the late war monster are extremly expensive at the beginning of the tour
and become less and less expensive to be very cheap at the end of the tour.
Just to make early war plane used .
- at the end of the tour all the accumulated perk point are lost
but well ... it could be an extremly bad idea :D
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"unperk Ta-152"
ARE YOU ****ING OUT OF YOUR MIND?????????????????????????????????????????????????
TA IS THE RAREST OF ALL WHITE ELEPHANTS AND SHOULD STAY THAT WAY.... so as the chog
if HTC does not want to perk the top non-perk rides, they should unperk spit 14 (because it gives a competitive ride against the dweeeeeebstang and dweeb-0-9s, ect ect) and give discount price on F4U-4 and temps
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At least it sounds good, Straffo :)
I would like to see it tried out!
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As far as I am concerned ... your treatment ... lends itself to making the wound stink even more. Again ... you have no research or data to back up your Rx and witch-doctor oils. Total assumption on your part without looking at the big/total picture.
This is basically degenerate reasoning - sucks for both sides. Likewise you don't have any proof it won't work, nor is there any reason to not even try it experimentally. It's not as if it's a fundamentally different system like a full-blown RPS. It's not even the old NPA which suggests new perks on what people previously had for free. It's a suggestion to deperk the plane, and I bet HTC could do it in 1 minute with their settings. Dunno, maybe try it out for a month.
At least for the old NPA suggestions it was confirmed by some CT CMs to work with their settings. The basic reasoning behind both past and present suggestions are the same. If it worked in the other case on a limited scale, as long as the same basics are applied there's a chance it might not work, but also a chance it might.
And if it's proven to not work, it's simply a matter of dropping the idea. Just like the ENY limiter system which was *practically* dropped, after bad rep.
If that is your ultimate outcome, then I stand by what I said before ... you have not completely thought this out to its final conclusion(s) which makes it completely flawed.
What flaw?
This may balance out the array of superplanes, but will totally destroy other planes and their usuage ... particularly the early war rides.
It is already destroyed. Accept it and admit it. There is no such thing as 'other plane and their usage', at least on any kind of meaningful scale.
The only other 'non-latewar rides' we see in the game are;
1) CV planes - lack choice in the first place
2) vets - on perk harvesting or personal gratification run
3) AH newbies - who just picked their favorites
4) base defense - Spit5s or N1K2s
These aren't going to go away because 3 more superplanes are added.
Wrong ... you cant add something to something else without an increase. If you have 5 lbs of watermelon and I give you another 5 lbs of watermelon you now have more watermelon than you started with and it stinks twice as bad.
That's normal mathematics. "Hell" is more of abstract mathematics. Sorta like "infinity" concept. When you add infinity to infinity its still infinity.
The MA already arrived at its 'extreme' which can be ever achieved by this particular condition. It's gonna stay like this and nothing's gonna change whatever someone does. Only thing that can significantly change the MA into either worse or better is something much more fundamental than just perks.
Fiddling with the perks doesn't change anything at all in terms of basic gameplay. Even the NPA suggestion is at best a temporary relief to ease the tension going around with all the late-war planes. Likewise, unperking 3 more late-war rides is not gonna make anything better or worse. It will, however, decorate the problem in a more colorful way so at least we aren't so loatheful of it.
The "late-war plane problem", is already out and fully roaring. I'm just asking for a slightly different form of it. It can't be made any better or worse. It can be warped or spread apart a little.
Hence, hell + hell isn't hell hell. It's already the same hell, but with just 3 more planes.
ps) tikky, I'm really really confident the Ta152 is gonna be rare even without any kind of perks.
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Originally posted by tikky
"unperk Ta-152"
ARE YOU ****ING OUT OF YOUR MIND?????????????????????????????????????????????????
TA IS THE RAREST OF ALL WHITE ELEPHANTS AND SHOULD STAY THAT WAY.... so as the chog
if HTC does not want to perk the top non-perk rides, they should unperk spit 14 (because it gives a competitive ride against the dweeeeeebstang and dweeb-0-9s, ect ect) and give discount price on F4U-4 and temps
Exactly what planet are you on that you think that a 152 is more uber than a spit 14 or an f4u4. Sure there are guys that cleared out areas in them, but look at who was mentioned... Two vets that BnZ people to death. The d9 is more forgiving than a 152, except for the small amount of 30mms it has more ammo load and packs about the same punch
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Blah ... now your just scrambling and making stuff up as you go along.
Infinity concept ... please.
Even the NPA suggestion is at best a temporary relief to ease the tension going around with all the late-war planes.
I have no tension ... and I'll bet that there are alot of others who don't either.
The only ones that get tension over whats being flown are those that for some reason think that whatever they do or accomplish in this game has some greater meaning in their life or in my life.
Its a farggin game ... thank the lord that HT and Pyro can see the forest thru the trees.
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Originally posted by BlauK
I support your agenda, but I would aproach the situation from opposite direction: more perks, not less!
Perk also the following planes:
* La-7
* Fw190D-9
* Typhoon Mk.Ib
* P-51D
* Bf109G-10
[
Heh, yeah, the HTC can advertise "..you can fly any of XX vintage WWII aircraft......but only if you're good enough."
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Slapshot,
Why do you think that unperking the Ta-152, Spit XIV and F4U-4 would cause that much change in people that the top 8 would have 75% of the kills instead of the top 5 having 50% of the kills? That seems like odd logic to me. If those 25% of people were inclined to go to the superbirds, they'd have already done it using the current crop of 5. Why would the addition of these three suddenly drag them out of their P-47s, Bf109G-6s and Ki-61s?
Some would for sure, me among them, but the Spit XIV has been my favorite WWII fighter for well more than a decade. AH's setup denies me the chance to ever get good with it or to ever fly it regularly. (Maybe the new icon system will help me in that regards. I've not played since that change was made)
Slimm50,
How is that different from the current setup?
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This watermelon has to be a troll. And I think everyone's caught.
If it aint then Kewwensesa doesnt know what he wants.
First he wants to perk EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now he just wants to unperk the fastest and best climbers in the game? lmfao!
Go for it. :aok
Nicely laid bait btw.
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Morph,
No, he is quite consistant. He wants more diversity in the MA.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
This watermelon has to be a troll. And I think everyone's caught.
If it aint then Kewwensesa doesnt know what he wants.
First perk EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now we just want to unperk the fastest best climbers in the game? lmfao!
Go for it. :aok
Nicely laid bait btw.
If he is fishing, he is sure putting a lot of work into it. I don't buy it... Most guys fish with dynamite on this BBS
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Originally posted by Karnak
Morph,
No, he is quite consistant. He wants more diversity in the MA.
You want diversity come to NYC.
You want to play a game? Well then... Guess what? Play a game. Ta da... Aces High.
After all his long hours, even longer posts, hard work that he put into advocating for "PERK THE WHOLE DAM MA!" campainge. He does a 180 and now wants to unperk the fastest most leathal planes in the game?
ROFL.
I call bullchit and I also disagree strongly with unperking them.
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Why are you trying to force certain planes to be flown more & others less? You want to force the MA to be the Ideal you envision? Just because you don't like it how it is, does not mean others do not like it. Your argument & reasoning are self-serving. Leave it how it is, nothing drastically wrong. Fly what you want & let others fly there own plane, style to. Don't try to force your Ideal vision of a MA onto others.
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See? If the 38's flaps were fixed this whine wouldnt even be here!
*runs and hides*
;) :D :D :D:rofl
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Originally posted by Karnak
Slapshot,
Why do you think that unperking the Ta-152, Spit XIV and F4U-4 would cause that much change in people that the top 8 would have 75% of the kills instead of the top 5 having 50% of the kills? That seems like odd logic to me. If those 25% of people were inclined to go to the superbirds, they'd have already done it using the current crop of 5. Why would the addition of these three suddenly drag them out of their P-47s, Bf109G-6s and Ki-61s?
Some would for sure, me among them, but the Spit XIV has been my favorite WWII fighter for well more than a decade. AH's setup denies me the chance to ever get good with it or to ever fly it regularly. (Maybe the new icon system will help me in that regards. I've not played since that change was made)
Slimm50,
How is that different from the current setup?
It wouldn't happen suddenly ... it would be a trickle effect. People won't suddenly abandon planes, but eventually they would be outclassed on a constant basis and then, in order to compete or stay alive, they will be forced into the 8 wonders of the world or just plain quit.
Unperk the F4U-4 and the F6-F and the other F4U variants will become extinct. Every CV battle will have reems and reems of -4s flowing off the deck. Drop the CHog perks and it becomes even worse.
Unperk the XIV and you will see all those new P-38s that people are just beginning to try out disappear. Avid long time P-38 jocks will have no trouble, but match any P-38 against a XIV at altitude and the 38 is toast.
The idea sucks ... plain and simple ... twist it anyway ya like.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The Chog got perked not long after I started playing AH. We already had the 190D-9, 109G-10, and the La-Cheesy-7. HTC added 800 lbs of wieght to the Chog after it was perked I think, that reduced its performance a bit. I think one of the reasons the Chog was perked was because of its quad hispanos and huge ammo load.
Well, maybe my memory isn't what it should be. But when the C Hog got perked and modified for worse, it was one of the worse times of my AH experience. The LA7's were very rare at first. I then tried the Typhie, and the D Hog. Gameplay changed so much, that I took about a 2 year break from Aces High. I wanted to do some other things. When I came back the arena wasn't even close to the same, new planes, new most popular rides, new gv's. It was a different game.
I doubt that the C Hog would be that much more popular than the Typhie, it has the 4 Hispano package. But for gv killing, the Hispano's aren't what they used to be, and rightly so. The C Hog was great to set about 3 notches of flaps, wheels down, just above stall, and you could pop a Panzer in one pass. It was a hoot for the pilots, but really unfair for the Panzer drivers.
Like I said, more diversity is what we should be looking for, not less.
As far as I am really concerned just leave the perk system alone. I think it stinks, but for all it's faults, the game plays well as it is.
(hope I don't get deleted for flame)
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Do most others really look at perk points & monitor them? Hell, if I want to up a Temp, I don't even think twice to look what the perk price is. Amazed a whole lot of people even care or monitor perkies.
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I think everyone is missing the point though. We can't just sit and compare plane X with Y, in AH the "average" bar is set currently at the La7/P-51D/190D9/etc level. There is a set of 5% of the aircraft that are perked that are marginally better than "Average", the 5% in this "average" group, and 90% that are below average, some significantly. The typical AH player is no ace and can't rely solely on skill/ability to get a kill, he has to pull in situation, altitude and aircraft performance considerations, thus he will pick at least the "Average" aircraft so as not to penalize himself. It's also why some new aircraft, unless shown clearly superior in ability to this "average" that's been set, won't ever really see any significant use in the game. There will always be guys looking to try some other ride out, those with some personal historical significance, or those who really want some extra challenge who will fly other rides, but the typical player would simply be putting themselves behind the 8-ball in doing that. Even of the players acknowledged as "good", many of them still fly one of the top aircraft most of the time.
The only way to change that is to lower the bar on average and unless HT/Pyro make an effort to do that then the situation is unlikely to change in the MA. It's shame though, there are so many aircraft with so much character that simply aren't that competitive in the game but would be an absolute blast if they were. It wouldn't have to cripple the game to lower the bar, the C-Hog experience showed how a low-cost perk both balanced usage but left an aircraft accessible to typical players (the C-Hog still gets good kill totals and deaths each month, risking the 8 perk points isn't really an issue for anyone). It would mean that a lot of players who rely on the uber-late-war-rides would find themselves out of their primary/secondary rides though and that's unlikely to be popular. All it takes is the current side-balancer to see what happens when a bunch of guys who don't know anything but these top couple of aircraft get stuck in 190A5's or 109G2's, it's not pretty.
-Soda
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You want to force the MA to be the Ideal you envision?
Thats all he's ever wanted to do.... Not just with this handsomehunk idea but with his "PERK IT ALL!!!!!!" idea too.
Perk this perk that, unperk it all except for tuesdays..... MA Game play my way...
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Im glad that Im not the only one that sees this whole thread for what it is. The war and peace version of
wah wah wah I coudnt catch an la7 on the deck..the game is fubar.
Please dont make the mistake of associating long winded with well thought out.
this is just a whine. Implementing it would just make the game worse. There is not a chance in hell of Pyro implementing it so we can just let kwassa publish his heart wrenching findings.
Sorry about the Spit XIV Karnak. Its a perk plane for sure. It just doesnt fit your style, you fly to stick your head in the hornets nest and doing that in a perk ride that isnt fast on the deck is suicide. It doenst make the plane less of a perk ride though.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I doubt that the C Hog would be that much more popular than the Typhie, it has the 4 Hispano package....
I suspect the additional ordinanance, dive performance, damage tolerance, combat flaps, roll-rate, CV capabilities and range might prove you wrong... oh, and 230 rounds/gun vs 140 rounds/gun.
But I might be wrong......
-Soda
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Kweassa: I think the reason HT pays you no mind is that were getting closer to the release of TOD. He is about to take a serious stab at providing gameplay with controled balance and well thought out plane match-ups. If you want to see mid-war planes in action now you should write these bohemiath posts selling people on the CT, as the MA is pretty much designed to cater to the typical late war uberplane dweeb crowd anyway.
That said I think your light perk idea was great, and unperking these rides would be disasterous. The F4U-4 in the hands of an expert forcing overshoots with lag rolls and exploiting its awsome accelleration is just too much for the typical player to handle, where at least when they gang a 51 they can probably get the kill no matter who's in it.
-pellik
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Originally posted by Soda
oh, and 230 rounds/gun vs 140 rounds/gun.
But I might be wrong......
-Soda
Dang I have been getting ripped off all this time, I swear I only get 135 rounds/gun in typhooon!!!! Might be wrong though, don't pay that close attention to details, will have to look next time i get up.
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So, now I want to unperk the 3~4 perked prop planes, so its 8 planes getting 50% instead of 5 planes getting 50%.
Kweassa, I understand what ends you are trying to achieve, I'm just not sure your methods would work. Please understand I'm not saying your methods wouldn't work, I'm saying I don't know.
If it were a democracy, my vote would be "I don't care."
In other words, if they wanted to try your little experiment, go for it. I almost never fly perkies and don't have a problem w/ those who do. I also don't care what people fly, I'll fight them all.*
* note: the author understands this does not mean he'd win them all.
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Originally posted by Soda
I suspect the additional ordinanance, dive performance, damage tolerance, combat flaps, roll-rate, CV capabilities and range might prove you wrong... oh, and 230 rounds/gun vs 140 rounds/gun.
But I might be wrong......
-Soda
Ahhh soda, you and your "facts" again... what do you know anyway? Not like you made a webpage on the flight characteristics of every plane in the game or something like that :p
I say perk the BKs!!! Fricken n00bs! :D
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Slapshot,
I'm not sure of that. The people who fly the rarer birds are already outclassed everytime they lift. Do you think it matters to a newbie in a P-38G that the fighter he can't shake and cant run from is a Spitfire Mk XIV or an La-7?
That said, I'm not very favorably inclined towards the "Unperk them all" position. I'd lower the perk prices quite a bit, but I wouldn't unperk anything. I'd actually add the three gun La-7 to the perk list, maybe the whole La-7, but that's it.
Pongo,
I'm planning on giving the XIV another go now that it only screams "kill me" at a 1000 yards and not 6000 yards.
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BTW.
I flew alot in one of HBlairs CT set ups where all the later planes where there but all later versions were perked.
Ie Jug d11 unperked all others perked same for Pony B, 109g6-g10 etc etc.
just a very light perk.
And it was excellent. But thats the CT.
They should really work on either having perk load outs on planes or dividing out the extra gun packages into seperate airframes. I think its way past time to do that.
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Originally posted by Fruda
The F4U-4: Well well... This plane is in the same class as the vaunted P-51D Mustang. It does exceed it one area, though: It's just plain faster. The P-51D rolls, turns, and generally handles better. It also has greater range, as well as better ground attack capabilities. It's also a much more forgiving aircraft, and is far less stall-prone than the F4U-4. So why is this plane perked? If we're to have a perked Corsair, add the F4U-4C. Sure, it only entered service nearing the final weeks of the war, but it did see combat. If we're to get the F4U-4C, take the perk price off of the F4U-4 and make the -4C a ~15 perk point model.
You're kidding, right? Ever go 1 v 1, F4U-4 against the P-51D? It's a mismatch. First, the F4U-4 outclimbs everything except the 109G-10, and isn't far behind it either. Second, no other single-engine fighter has a better flap system. It will eat P-51s alive in a stall fight. Roll is faster than the Mustang's as well. Acceleration? No contest, the F4U-4 simply checks out. Larger ammo loadout, same underwing loadout... I'm sorry, but the F4U-4 is a significantly better fighter than the P-51D, unless you need a long-range escort, which we don't need in AH2.
Better yet, go to the DA or TA and fly the F4U-4 against the Tempest... This isn't the old F4U-4 of AH1, this is a pure monster since the rework of its flight model in AH2. Flying the F4U-4 against the Tempest will reveal that the Tempest accelerates better and is faster on the deck... Go above 6k and things equalize. Go to 10k and the F4U-4 does everything better than the Tempest. If you try dogfighting with the F4U-4 and let speeds drop below 250 mph, your Tempest is in deep trouble.
Now, if we had the F4U-4B, with the four Hispanos, there would be no reason to ever spend a single perk on the Tempest.
What makes the Tempest great are the guns. What makes the F4U-4 great is its total performance. Best all around fighter to see combat in WWII. Even in Korea, it proved to be a better strike aircraft than the P-51D. F4U-4s were still in combat after the Mustangs were retired from front-line duty over Korea. Many of the -4s were simply worn out, being replaced by F4U-5s and AU-1s as they were retired.
My regards,
Widewing
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Kweassa,
I liked your other idea better , some of those planes are just too good to be unperked. (-4 and Tempest)
I would like to see them play with the perk system a little to see whether it would bring more variety.
What's wrong with trying - Change em at the start of every week or tour and see what shakes out - nothing has to be forever.
Could do it like this for example
The 39-41 Tour/Week
Everything after 41 perked - sliding scale
The 39-43 Tour/Week
Everything after 43 perked sliding scale
The 39-44.5 Tour/Week
Status quo
The 39-45 Tour/Week
Perk jets only
Has some of the aspects of the RPS (which I didn't like much) , but still leaving the ability to fly whatever you want - you just pay a couple of measly perks
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Okay then, I wasn't totally sure about the performance of the Uber Corsair.
I'd fly it more often, but the perk price is ridiculous! 80 perks for the F4U-4? Come on!
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Originally posted by Fruda
Okay then, I wasn't totally sure about the performance of the Uber Corsair.
I'd fly it more often, but the perk price is ridiculous! 80 perks for the F4U-4? Come on!
it's only 30 now quite often - and it is every bit as awesome as Widewing highlighted.
try it - you won't be dissappointed.
It's only minor weakness is lack of cannon power.
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Originally posted by Fruda
Okay then, I wasn't totally sure about the performance of the Uber Corsair.
I'd fly it more often, but the perk price is ridiculous! 80 perks for the F4U-4? Come on!
if you fly it and land safely you don't spend anything , it is just as free as any non-perked planes ;)
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The F4U-4 and Tempest flown correctly are simply dominating in a typical MA engagement.
Spit14 is nice, but maybe perked a wee bit high.
TA-152 is uber at higher elevations, just because it doesn't rock on the deck doesn't mean it's not worth the perkies.
I strongly disagree that low level performance is the main factor in determning an aircrafts value. Ord, range, guns, and handling all play a significant role.
Only people who do not posses the SA and ACM to avoid having to run out on the deck all the time feel the low fast planes are significantly better in the MA setting.
Look at Levithan in the SpitV
Look at ManeTMP in the P47
Look at KBMAN in the C-Hog
None of these planes have stellar low alt speed. Yet these guys will hand you your bellybutton over and over and routinely land 5-10 legitamate air-air kills. They "could" fly LA7's all the time, yet they don't, I wonder why?
Personally I advocate perking more planes at lower cost.
g00b
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:confused: :confused: :rolleyes:
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I see no harm in trying something different, or perhaps assigning modified perk systems to certain maps.
Is an altered perk system for 1 week going to cause chaos?
The game, MA, (aka fiction arena) is fun, but it can get mundane real quick.
As I see it the perk system is backwards, allowing the better players to fly the best planes is only asking for a mismatch. The less skilled players should get access to the better planes more often.
Perhaps adjust perk cost based on player rank.
I do agree that something different should be at least tried.
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what a waste of bbs space..
LEAVE the Planes ALONE...
I liek it..fly what you want..
give away tempest and spit 14s?....wow..thats frikn insane
really ghey
Im voting for..LEAVE IT ALONE
and stop cryn when soemone is faster then you...
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Why in Gods name do you keep beating this horse? You'd think PETA would have you in shackles by now.
Most anyone with a half a brain that realizes "Hey.. it really IS mostly the plane..." understands that the La-7 is better than all of our current "perk" planes.
Hell, for that matter the G-10 is better than all of our current perk planes, except maybe the Tempest.
You want to know the reason the La-7 will never be perked? Simple, it is a money-maker for HTC. It allows people who would otherwise be fodder to have fun.
The system isn't "broke". HTC is making money. If a time comes where HTC isn't making money any more, you might see changes made to the plane lineup. Till then, you are just pissing into the wind.
By the way, the reason "balanced" planes aren't popular is because of the "gameplay" in the arena. Fights tend to be X on 1, not 1 on 1. In a 1 on 1, a "balanced plane" always does something better than its opponent. In a X on 1, there is always at least 1 enemy plane that does it better than yours. So you are best off picking the fastest, or the best turning. I'd be a little more interesting if the La-7 wasn't the most manueverable fast plane, as well as being the fastest.. I really have to wonder how much use it would get if it did say 365 on the deck, and the Dora did 380.
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Urch, the balance between a 'money maker' and a 'game buster' hangs by a thread. Something can be successful for a certain term, but often that success starts to hamper further development rather than become the fundamentals of it.
Oh, and by the way,
Please, read the damned thing before commenting on it. Did somebody want the La-7 to be perked? I sure as hell know it wasn't me, at least not on this thread.
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The F4U-4 and Tempest flown correctly are simply dominating in a typical MA engagement.
So is any plane when flown 'correctly'.
Spit14 is nice, but maybe perked a wee bit high.
Too high.
TA-152 is uber at higher elevations, just because it doesn't rock on the deck doesn't mean it's not worth the perkies.
Just like the P-47s are uber at higher elevations?
I strongly disagree that low level performance is the main factor in determning an aircrafts value. Ord, range, guns, and handling all play a significant role.
Right, so how about the P-51D which has:
* low alt speed
* high alt performance
* 2nd longest range on internal fuel
* carries 2k lkbs + 6 HVARs
* 6x .50s
* excellent handling in all axises + combat flaps
Did I miss anything you brought up as being 'important'?
Still no? Not perk material? Because its too popular to be perked?
OK, so it's popular. That's great.
Then let's give a chance for the F4U-4 and the Spit-14, Ta152H to become popular too.
Only people who do not posses the SA and ACM to avoid having to run out on the deck all the time feel the low fast planes are significantly better in the MA setting.
So, when that someone who does not posess SA and ACM decides to run to deck in his plane, what's the vet gonna do if he chooses to chase him?
Use a tractor-beam? (or go down low?)
Look at Levithan in the SpitV
Look at ManeTMP in the P47
Look at KBMAN in the C-Hog
Look at my reply to Pongo.
Kbman, Levi, Mane are individuals. Sure, I see them time to time on what they can do. However, whenever I see Levi land a 10+ kill sortie in a SpitV, I also see both enemy and friendly SpitVs near me getting shot down in dozens.
Think about that g00b.
The Spit14, Ta152, F4U-4 are deadly planes and would be sickeningly deadly if they had Levi, Mane, and Kbman for its pilots. True, true. But then again, the same applies to all planes.
We're talking about the general effectiveness of certain perked plane types compared to unperked types of simular performance, not about one potent individual in one plane.
And I say the Spit14 and the Ta152, F4U-4 is no more a 'threat' than the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typh, and Bf109G-10 already is in MA.
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Ta152 is exceptionally hard plane to fly in MA environment, and you will find its usage felt in AH2 comparing to AH due to changes in game phisics. For strange reason it is a plane which became worse with every good change in AH. Better flying phisics in AH2 made it very tricky to fly, and almost impossible to fly agressively. Last icons change left it one of 2 perk planes, which will be identified at long ranges, and while 262 has speed to get away, 152 will be still a perkmagnet.
I really do not see other reason why it is perked other than the historic reasons.
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After all his long hours, even longer posts, hard work that he put into advocating for "PERK THE WHOLE DAM MA!" campainge. He does a 180 and now wants to unperk the fastest most leathal planes in the game?
ROFL.
I call bullchit and I also disagree strongly with unperking them.
Why?
Since obviously according to your general, cynical logic as shown in this thread, you don't give a rat's prettythang im what HTC decides to do or not. You just want the game, don't have any alternatives yourself.
So, are you against the suggestions because you have your own 'vision' that is different from mine, and the current reality of MA suits it?
Or is it simply because you hate persistent people with persistent ideas, and think any idea that might change what you're already used to is a threat to you in some personal way?
Speak up Morph, the soap box is yours. That is, if you have anything else to say than just tuff-but-hollow words like "ROFL", "LOL", "whiner", and "Bullshi*"?
I'm glad that Im not the only one that sees this whole thread for what it is. The war and peace version of
wah wah wah I coudnt catch an la7 on the deck..the game is fubar.
Maybe I should have started with some other examples involving Fw190D-9s. Perhaps your 'first impression' might have been different.
But then again, who cares. The 'first impression' is so basically embedded in your skull that no matter how much I explain that this is something about the 4hog, Spit14, and the Ta,... you keep coming back to "this is just another Lgay whine - yawn" attitude.
Remind me to choose my examples more carefully when I have you as a reader. It might actually be easy to manipulate you if the first impression sticks that good to you.
Please dont make the mistake of associating long winded with well thought out.
Can't dispute that. Sorry, it's a bad habit. Very hard to get straight to the point without citing everything I had in mind - because I'm afraid I might be misunderstood.
But then again, with all the explanations I used, I'm still misunderstood as a "this is just another Lgay whine" thing. *Shrugs*
this is just a whine. Implementing it would just make the game worse.
Why?
There is not a chance in hell of Pyro implementing it so we can just let kwassa publish his heart wrenching findings
No, but there's a chance that they might actually consider it when the going gets really bad, and figure something must be done.
Ofcourse, no one user would suddenly mind-control HT or Pyro into implementing something they want immediately. But things people have wanted for a long time, have a tendency of being finally implemented in AH, even if it takes years.
Sorry about the Spit XIV Karnak. Its a perk plane for sure. It just doesnt fit your style, you fly to stick your head in the hornets nest and doing that in a perk ride that isnt fast on the deck is suicide. It doenst make the plane less of a perk ride though.
So what does the Spit14 do SO MUCH BETTERr than the Bf109G-10, that the Spit14 is perked at 60, and Bf109G-10 at zilch?
Better maneuverability and twin Hizookas are worth 60 points, huh?
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Honestly, I support what you want in principle. I'd dearly love to see more of the fighters that are modelled flying. I just don't think it is ever going to happen.
You and I both know that the Spit 14, F4U-4, and Ta-152 (especially the Ta-152) wouldn't "imbalance the arena" if they were unperked. The Tempest probably would, in my opinion (combining near La-7 performance with 4 Hispanos).
I think the Spit-14 would see some people flock to it for a month, before they realize the La-7 or Spit 5 is better suited to the way they fly, at which point it would drop down below the D-9 and G-10 in use, to around where the Ki-84 is now.
The F4U-4 would replace the F4U-1D.
The Ta-152 would continue to see almost no (<1000 kills per tour) use, simply because it really is that awful.
I even think the only "negative" effect of unperking the C-hog would be to take all the D-Hog kills and move em over to the C-hog category, it wouldn't replace the La-7/P-51/Spit 5/ Niki on the top of the heap.
One plane I really have always been curious about is the Niki. In AH1, it *was* a viable alternative to the Spit 5. It turned almost as well, was faster, accelerated almost as well, and had about the same firepower. In AH2, the handling went south in a hurry, in my opinion nuetering the plane.. I wouldn't give it good odds against a Spit 9 in a fight, much less a Spit 5. But it continues to see heavy use... I really can't explain it.
Anyway, this is all fascinating (if pointless) debate, but I think I can safely predict that there will be no major changes to the perk plane lineup in the forseeable future.
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If the only ac that can be "purchased" by the perk system is the 262 then the perk system loses credibility...........
If the perk system is helping to balance game play then its best kept................
If some unperked ac are unbalancing game play then they are best perked.................... but none are (currently) unbalancing game play.
Beyond the above it is ridiculous to perk a plane popular with many players because the use of that plane annoys other players.
However having said that.......
I dont understand why the Spit XIV is perked (either in terms of historical "representiveness" or game balance)
I think perking the La7 (3 x b20) and leaving the La7 (2 x shvak) unperked would probably achieve the bulk of the wishes so often writ here.
The only prob with the Chog is that it is non representative but interms of game balance I reckon it deserves another chance unperked.
I still dont know why the Ta152 had time and resource spent on it but that was a long time ago..........
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"Most anyone with a half a brain that realizes "Hey.. it really IS mostly the plane..." understands that the La-7 is better than all of our current "perk" planes.
"
maybe the people with only half a brain.
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Another well-thought analysis by the Prince of Perks.
(QUOTE)
So, my new set of perk suggestions:
*Set1
Tempest: 15 points
Ta152H: free
Spit14: free
F4U-4: free
F4U-1C: 5 points
(UNQUOTE)
Good idea, Kweassa. I vote yes.
Then again, I have always disliked the perk system. As the political maxim goes, certainly can't please all the people all the time.
However the Main Arena is designed, somebody is always unhappy, and always will be no matter if all planes are perked or none are perked.
Historical matchups and balanced plane sets are best and most logical in the Combat Theater, which unfortunately never seems to be as popular as the Main Arena.
Could that be because many people don't like limited or restricted plane sets?
Dunno, but I've always believed Aces High could have its cake and eat it too with unperked Main Arena and historically accurate varying matchups in Combat Theater.
This debate always ties in with rotating plane sets as practiced in WarBirds. There too many people did not like being limited in their plane choices even when they were mostly historically accurate matchups.
Bottom line is HiTech & Company have to continuously attract enough paying customers to pay the bills and make enough profit to stay motivated. This bulletin board and threads like this give them lots of feedback.
But their dilemma always is trying to decide whether the bulletin board is sufficiently representative to reflect the druthers of most their customers. Or is the BB primarily the most passionate and articulate customers advocating viewpoints which the majority does not necessarily share?
I'm guessing Aces High staff (whether HiTech alone or with some others) carefully track membership numbers plus BB comments from the posters whose opinions they have come to value the most, and adjust the game accordingly within the parameters of their own game vision.
That's why I'm betting that Kweassa's latest suggestion Set 1, which offers a thoughtful detailed adjustment and reasonable compromise among perk and no-perk advocates, has a good chance of being implemented.
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Originally posted by Pongo
"Most anyone with a half a brain that realizes "Hey.. it really IS mostly the plane..." understands that the La-7 is better than all of our current "perk" planes.
"
maybe the people with only half a brain.
Maybe so... but in the land of people with no brains, the man with half a brain...
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Originally posted by OIO
See? If the 38's flaps were fixed this whine wouldnt even be here!
See? If the ki-84's flaps were fixed this whine wouldnt even be here!
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how can la-7 be better if i cant last 10 mins in it (tiny fuel load lol, even at 100%)......
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Originally posted by tikky
how can la-7 be better if i cant last 10 mins in it (tiny fuel load lol, even at 100%)......
I dont fly the La-7 all that often, but even I have a 5-1 k/d in it this tour :)
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"
Hell, for that matter the G-10 is better than all of our current perk planes, except maybe the Tempest."
bull****...its gun package isnt that great, it probably wouldent win a turnfight with a lancaster, i find its deck acceleration pathetic, veiws arnt that great...
spit 14 however, has good veiws, good handling, high top speeds, good acceleration, good gun package, decent climbing,
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The G-10 accelerates somewhat slower than the La-7, but faster than every other non-perked plane. It is probably about on par with the Tempest, better than the F4U-4 and the Spit 14.
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1st off let me say thanks for your well thought out and logical post, it's refreshing these days. Allow me to rebut some of your comments.
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The F4U-4 and Tempest flown correctly are simply dominating in a typical MA engagement.
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So is any plane when flown 'correctly'.
* Please... Both these planes can engage and disengage at will vs any plane in the game. Only the La7, G10, and P-51 are even close and the LA7 can't follow over 10k, the G10 can't turn with either plane, and P-51 suffers in the climb dept.
No other planes give the pilot such impunity save for the 262 and 163.
quote:
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Spit14 is nice, but maybe perked a wee bit high.
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Too high.
* you may be right.
quote:
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TA-152 is uber at higher elevations, just because it doesn't rock on the deck doesn't mean it's not worth the perkies.
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Just like the P-47s are uber at higher elevations?
* again... true... perk the P47! :) Or de-perk the 152, I think you're right, they're roughly equivalent aircraft all in all. The buff pilots may whine about it though.
quote:
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I strongly disagree that low level performance is the main factor in determning an aircrafts value. Ord, range, guns, and handling all play a significant role.
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Right, so how about the P-51D which has:
* low alt speed
* high alt performance
* 2nd longest range on internal fuel
* carries 2k lkbs + 6 HVARs
* 6x .50s
* excellent handling in all axises + combat flaps
Did I miss anything you brought up as being 'important'?
Still no? Not perk material? Because its too popular to be perked?
OK, so it's popular. That's great.
Then let's give a chance for the F4U-4 and the Spit-14, Ta152H to become popular too.
* I think the most "important" is actually climb/acceleration. The P-51d is poor in both areas. It also has average turning ability. I think it's rated fine as is. I have very few deaths against P-51's in the last couple tours, as a matter of fact, ship gunners have more kills on me.
quote:
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Only people who do not posses the SA and ACM to avoid having to run out on the deck all the time feel the low fast planes are significantly better in the MA setting.
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So, when that someone who does not posess SA and ACM decides to run to deck in his plane, what's the vet gonna do if he chooses to chase him?
Use a tractor-beam? (or go down low?)
* The Vet stays high untill he finds a victim that can't escape, even SpitV's can catch LA-7's in the right situation. You simply ignore the runners and move on. I think that's a skill many here need to develop and precipitates a lot of the "running" whines.
quote:
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Look at Levithan in the SpitV
Look at ManeTMP in the P47
Look at KBMAN in the C-Hog
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Look at my reply to Pongo.
Kbman, Levi, Mane are individuals. Sure, I see them time to time on what they can do. However, whenever I see Levi land a 10+ kill sortie in a SpitV, I also see both enemy and friendly SpitVs near me getting shot down in dozens.
Think about that g00b.
The Spit14, Ta152, F4U-4 are deadly planes and would be sickeningly deadly if they had Levi, Mane, and Kbman for its pilots. True, true. But then again, the same applies to all planes.
We're talking about the general effectiveness of certain perked plane types compared to unperked types of simular performance, not about one potent individual in one plane.
And I say the Spit14 and the Ta152, F4U-4 is no more a 'threat' than the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typh, and Bf109G-10 already is in MA.
*So basically we agree it's the noob's that benefits the most from the fast planes. So lets throw 'em a bone.
*The pro's frequently use slower planes because they're able to extract the benefits of various aircraft. Which may actually make the slower plane better overall. i.e. getting more kills in a C-Hog than a La-7, way more.
* I say you will be wistling another tune when you have an F4U-4 thundering down on you at over 500mph, and you realize that no matter what plane you're in there is no escape. You can only evade untill he makes a mistake, help arrives, or one of you runs out of gas. You'll be extra pissed when his Spit14 buddy comes along to finish you off.
To sum it up, I think the ENY or perk value should be equal to the size of the load in your shorts when you see one above you.
g00b
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Originally posted by Urchin
Most anyone with a half a brain that realizes "Hey.. it really IS mostly the plane..." understands that the La-7 is better than all of our current "perk" planes.
Hell, for that matter the G-10 is better than all of our current perk planes, except maybe the Tempest.
I realize that the La-7 and 109G-10 are excellent fighters. So, to get some idea of how they stacked up against the perked fighters and the better performers of the MA, I went offline and tested them. Results are a bit different from testing when AH2 first went online, but nothing significant.
Acceleration tests: At 25 feet ASL, accelerate from 200 to 300 mph. I measure low-level acceleration. At medium altitudes, the results will be notably different in several cases. Fuel set for similar range, not weight of fuel.
Your result may be slightly different, but not significantly so.
Climb: At 25 ASL @ steady at 300 mph. Full power with WEP, engage auto-climb to 10,000 feet.
E6B used to set and measure speeds.
Results of acceleration rounded to nearest 0.5 second.
Tempest: 27.0 seconds
F4U-4: 30.0 seconds
109G-10: 30.0 seconds
La-7: 30.5 seconds
SpitXIV: 30.5 seconds
190D-9: 32.0 seconds
Ki-84: 35.0 seconds
P-38J/L: 38.0 seconds
Yak-9U: 38.0 seconds
P-51D: 39.0 seconds
P-47D-40 43.5 seconds
We see that the Tempest has an advantage, albeit not great. The next 4 can be considered a dead heat. The Dora isn't far behind and would overtake the Spit before long. The other four will pull away, at least until they run out of WEP. If speed from 150 to 250 mph were the test, the Ki-84 would win that race, edging out the 109G-10. We can see that the P-38J/L (virtually no difference in performance) is the best accelerating USAAF fighter, about dead even with the Yak-9U. We then see the P-51D close behind, with the big Jug trailing by a significant distance.
Results of climb to 10k rounded to nearest second.
Minutes:seconds
109G-10: 1:56 Baseline
SpitfireXIV: 1:58 -2 seconds
F4U-4: 2:01 -5 seconds
Ki-84: 2:05 -9 seconds
Tempest: 2:07 -11 seconds
P-38J/L: 2:08 -12 seconds
190D-9: 2:09 -13 seconds
La-7: 2:12 -16 seconds
Yak-9U: 2:20 -24 seconds
P-47D-40: 2:23 -27 seconds
P-51D: 2:25 -29 seconds
As you can see, little differs between the 109G-10, SpitXIV and F4U-4 in terms of climb. Weight of fuel is more significant for the F4U than the other two. As fuel burns down, the F4U shows a greater increase in climb than the G-10 and SpitXIV. With 25% in each, the grouping among the three is even tighter.
Note that the Tempest will have problems with the P-38J/L and especially with the Ki-84 in a straight climb. Again, fuel load can reverse the order of the three.
The La-7 is out of its element once it climbs above 5k, where climb begins to drop off rather quickly. At 10k, the La-7 will have a hard time with most of the fighters tested. Go higher and it gets worse. Clearly, the Lavochkin is the super-duper weedwacker....
Note that the P-47D-40 beats the P-51D to 10k.
Fuel was allocated as follows; loads I use in the MA for each if flying no more than 1 sector. If going further, I will add a single drop tank (or load a pair, and drop off one), except for the Yak which obviously must go to 100% internal.
Tempest: 75%
F4U-4: 75%
109G-10: 75%
La-7: 100%
SpitXIV: 75%
190D-9: 75%
Ki-84: 50%
P-38J/L: 50%
Yak-9U: 75%
P-51D: 50%
P-47D-40 75%
My regards,
Widewing
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LOL...oppisite aproach = Same result.
The problem is that if this yellow ball...or you red ball (you other Perk Agenda) get's rolling...there is no stoping point. It would go on and on and on and ............................. .... Kinda like your post. ;)
This time could be spent building perk points for that elite bird of prey.
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I want my 2 hours back. This was a near total waste of time. I do however, think this would be a great thread for
WWW.FURBALLUNDERGROUND.COM
:D
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Please... Both these planes can engage and disengage at will vs any plane in the game. Only the La7, G10, and P-51 are even close and the LA7 can't follow over 10k, the G10 can't turn with either plane, and P-51 suffers in the climb dept.
No other planes give the pilot such impunity save for the 262 and 163.
You're right g00b.
But both in real life and the MA, fights go downwards, not upwards. Climb is at best a temporary aide to escape, or reposition oneself to better E status - which is easily neutralized if a superior low-alt performer chooses not to follow but runs away to deck.
High-alt performance and climb capability was an important factor in real life because the Luftwaffe's main target was strategic bombers, which began flying higher and higher as the war went on.
However, things were very different in the Eastern Front where tactical scale battles were much more frequent, and planes contested for local air-superiorities rather than the "buff/buff escort vs interceptor/interceptor escort" combo as seen in the Western Front.
Of the two, which does the MA resemble more? Definately the Eastern Front.
again... true... perk the P47! Or de-perk the 152, I think you're right, they're roughly equivalent aircraft all in all. The buff pilots may whine about it though.
I'd rather see the Ta152 deperked! :)
I think the most "important" is actually climb/acceleration. The P-51d is poor in both areas. It also has average turning ability. I think it's rated fine as is. I have very few deaths against P-51's in the last couple tours, as a matter of fact, ship gunners have more kills on me.
How about a 1:1 comparison, Ta152 and P-51D side by side?
*Speed: P-51D is superior at all alts upto 26k. Over 26k the Ta152 comes faster.
*Climb: P-51D is superior at all alts, except at a short gap between 6k~10k, where the Ta152 outclimbs the P-51D by 200fpm max.
*Maneuverability: P-51D is vastly superior over the Ta152H. (The Ta152H is a little bit superior to the Fw190D-9)
*Handling: The P-51D is above average in all 3 axises at all speeds. The Ta152H is light in pitch control at all speeds, but roll rate suffers at high speeds. Both planes have dangers of structural failure when handled roughly at very high speeds.
*Acceleration: The Ta152H is slightly faster than the P-51D from 150mph to 300mph. Above 300mph to both plane's max speed at given alt, the P-51D is superior.
*Range: The Ta152H-1 flies slightly loner than the P-51D with internal fuel load. The P-51D flies longer than the Ta152 when both planes equip DTs.
*Guns: 6x .50cal package vs 2x20mm/1x30mm. The Ta152H has superior guns.
*Ordnace: Ta152H is capable of carrying one bomb(500kg) in the center line. The P-51D carries max 1000lbsx2 bombs and 6xHVAR 5" rockets.
If the P-51D isn't perked, at least in terms of performance, the Ta152H should not be either.
The Vet stays high untill he finds a victim that can't escape, even SpitV's can catch LA-7's in the right situation. You simply ignore the runners and move on. I think that's a skill many here need to develop and precipitates a lot of the "running" whines.
I think that's why many of the vets are so angry with the MA of now as opposed to the MA of the old days. Too many planes they have to just 'ignore'.
I say you will be wistling another tune when you have an F4U-4 thundering down on you at over 500mph, and you realize that no matter what plane you're in there is no escape. You can only evade untill he makes a mistake, help arrives, or one of you runs out of gas. You'll be extra pissed when his Spit14 buddy comes along to finish you off.
Frankly, that's of no concern. I already can't escape any of the La-7s when I'm in a Fw190A. The only times I actually escape is when I grab the plane of simular performance like the Bf109G-10 or Fw190D-9.
At least if there are free F4U-4s, we'd be seeing a lot of F4U-4s fighting a lot of La-7s too(if, the F4U-4 also comes that popular).
Same results, but a little more variation.
That's good enough for me.
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Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H
all these planes in most cases can out climb alot of others, or out turn, are you baseing your conclusions on just speed or are you takeing other factors in consideration as well?
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Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H
all these planes in most cases can out climb alot of others, or out turn, are you baseing your conclusions on just speed or are you takeing other factors in consideration as well?
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I hate to disagree with my squadmates who are quite inflamed about this .......
I think it is a good idea. I dont see the harm in it at all.
I have to admit that almost all of the time when I see a post by Kweassa I simply ignore it and move on to the next post. This is due to its almost always obsene length and due to Kweassa always comming off to me as "Look how smart I am..... My post is huge"
Not this time. I think his arguement is well thought out, well presented and should at least be given a try.
I also give him props for keeping his cool while taking some fairly personal attacks in this thread.
More planes are a good thing. I dont think that anyone really belives that the TA152/Spit14/F4U4 will unbalance the arena.
If they do so be it. Go back to some perks on those rides. All he is asking for is a try..... I dont see the harm.
I for one am tired of the same birds always being perked. The system could use a shake up. Again more planes to choose from is a good thing not a bad thing.
Kweassa
c yas up.... Dave
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Originally posted by Nomak
I hate to disagree with my squadmates who are quite inflamed about this .......
I think it is a good idea. I dont see the harm in it at all.
I have to admit that almost all of the time when I see a post by Kwessa I simply ignore it and move on to the next post. This is due to its almost always obsene length and due to Kwessa always comming off to me as "Look how smart I am..... My post is huge"
Not this time. I think his arguement is well thought out, well presented and should at least be given a try.
I also give him props for keeping his cool while taking some fairly personal attacks in this thread.
More planes are a good thing. I dont think that anyone really belives that the TA152/Spit14/F4U4 will unbalance the arena.
If they do so be it. Go back to some perks on those rides. All he is asking for is a try..... I dont see the harm.
I for one am tired of the same birds always being perked. The system could use a shake up. Again more planes to choose from is a good thing not a bad thing.
Kwessa
c yas up.... Dave
:aok Nice Response Nomak, and I am in agreement with every bit of it, including how cool headed Kweassa has remained with all the garbage / flaming type post people have throwed at him. Seems everytime he post someone is trying to figure out a way to slam his ideas or hijack his thread with flamebait.............