Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Raptor on February 24, 2005, 01:26:24 AM
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I was looking at German planes and these caught my interest. How do you think they would perform in AH?
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/do335a.jpg)
Dornier Do-335A-1 Pfeil "Arrow" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=99)
Number Produced: unknown
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/he162.jpg)
Heinkel He-162A-2 "Salamander" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=87)
Number Produced: 125
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/he219.jpg)
Heinkel He-219A-7 "Uhu" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=88)
Number Produced: 288
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/hs129b2.jpg)
Henschel Hs-129B-2 (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=44)
Number Produced: 843
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/do17z.jpg)
Dornier Do-17Z-2 (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=33)
Number Produced: 500
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/he111p4.jpg)
Heinkel He-111P-4 (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=43)
Number Produced: 400+
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/fw200c.jpg)
Focke-Wulf Fw-200C-3 "Condor" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=95)
Number Produced: 276
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/ju87g1.jpg)
Junkers Ju-87G-1 "Stuka" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=48)
Number Produced: 500+
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Cannon fodder for the latter part of your list, and we have potential jet and rocket fighters already. Of course they would have use in scenarios.
I'd like to see ME410, Beufighter or even Whirlwind instead. Well, on the other hand that Stuka would be nice...
-C+
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(http://nasaui.ited.uidaho.edu/nasaspark/safety/types/p51h.jpg)
P-51H 555 produced
(http://rwebs.net/ghostsqd/images/F8F.jpg)
F8F 654 produced
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/p-80.jpg)
P-80 Shooting Star, 5691 produced
(http://webdbnasm.si.edu/images/300/SI2003-29268-5_300h.jpg)
B-29 2400 produced
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well below the way they performed in reality, just as the other axis planes do now in AH. :D
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Originally posted by storch
well below the way they performed in reality, just as the other axis planes do now in AH. :D
And the F4U climbs too slow (just ask F4UDOA), and the Hellcat is much too slow (Just ask Widewing), and the P-38 is porked by the auto-retracting flaps (bunches like this one).
I can't believe how slow the T-34's ROF is.
Too bad HTC has it in for Allied planes and tanks.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
And the F4U climbs too slow (just ask F4UDOA), and the Hellcat is much too slow (Just ask Widewing), and the P-38 is porked by the auto-retracting flaps (bunches like this one).
I can't believe how slow the T-34's ROF is.
Too bad HTC has it in for Allied planes and tanks.
-Sik
:D
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Hi Raptor,
>How do you think they would perform in AH?
>Dornier Do-335A-1 Pfeil "Arrow" (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_aircraft_adv.php?op=getplanes&planesX=99)
Hm, I had a look at the Do 335A-0 with DB603A engines. My impression:
Speed noticably superior to P-51D below 7 km, inferior above.
Climb rate similar to Fw 190A-8 or P-51D, but climbs at shallower angle.
Turn rate on par with Fw 190A-8, slightly smaller radius.
Good firepower: 1 x MK103, 2 x MG151/20 centrally mounted.
Visibility to the rear a bit troublesome.
Good control at all speeds. I just found out that it does not have hydraulically powered controls, but a hydraulically powered control gain selection - weird.
The A-1 was the same aircraft, but with DB603E engines. Speed was great at low and medium altitudes (I'd reckon 650 km/h @ 0 km, 750 km/h @ 6.7 km), but above 10 km the lighter Mustang still was superior.
Turn and climb rates of course would benefit from the more powerful engines.
The actual fighter versions would have been the Do 335B aircraft, adding some weight and drag over the A variants, for example for a GM-1 installation and wing cannon.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Raptor,
Speed noticably superior to P-51D below 7 km, inferior above.
Good firepower: 1 x MK103, 2 x MG151/20 centrally mounted.
Visibility to the rear a bit troublesome.
speed was alot faster
and it was 2x MG151/15 thats a 15mm not a 20mm
and who need rear view when u were in the fastest prop plane made during WWII
but the first test flight took place about a week before the war ended.
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I was looking at a list of WW2 planes (they are missing alot of japanese planes though) and only took the german planes from the list that I thought would add something to the game that current versions cant already do. Im not the biggest expert on german aircraft and not sure what is different about a 190a3 and a5 as far as performance goes.
there were quite a few other planes as well. (staying away from the american planes cause i know someone somewhere will say "there are enough US planes as it is")
Early war planes for Russia (1939-1942)
Polikarpov I-16 Type 24 "Rata"
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/i16.jpg)
Entered service in April 1939
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/mig3.jpg)
Entered service in March 1941
Yakovlev Yak-1
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/yak1.jpg)
Entered service in February 1942
Lavochkin LaGG-3
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/lagg3.jpg)
Entered service in September 1939
Ilyushin Il-4
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/il4.jpg)
Entered service in 1939
Petlyakov Pe-2
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/pe2.jpg)
Entered service October 1940
Petlyakov Pe-8
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/pe8.jpg)
Entered service in May 1940
hope HTC gets around to doing more planes from other countries soon. As far as performance and preferance goes I like the US planes, but they are so different in compareson to other countries planes. I want something totally new just to mess around with.
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The DO-335 ARROW would be fun to try. But it is the same as the F8F BEARCAT - didn't see service in WW2 - shouldn't be in the game. Sorry.
DO-17 & HE-111 would be nice for the CT and Scenario's but basically the JU-88 we have can do everything better. Would like to see a better bomber like DO-217 or HE-177.
The HS-129 & JU87G would be EXTREMELY useful to the Axis side. The G Model Stuka is basicly the same as the G model with the 37mm gun pods attached - should be an easy conversion.
HE-162 & P-80 saw limited service - who knows - maybe. The 162 got one kill during the war if I am not mistaken.
HE-219 is a cool plane but with no darkness, radar or bombers to chase - would be pretty much a sitting duck in daytime. Same for the FW-200.
Add all of Raptors list :D and the OSCAR, TOJO, GRACE, BETTY, JUDY, NICK would make a better plane set to wish for IMO.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
speed was alot faster
and it was 2x MG151/15 thats a 15mm not a 20mm
and who need rear view when u were in the fastest prop plane made during WWII
but the first test flight took place about a week before the war ended.
WRONG
It was MG151/20s. The MG151s were out of production.
The Do 335V1 W.Nr. 230001, CP+UA, made its maiden flight on Oct 26 1943
You should by this book.
(http://www.monogramaviation.com/52-9.jpg)
Author: By J. Richard Smith, Eddie J. Creek & Thomas H. Hitchcock
ISBN#: 0-914144-52-9
Summary: 184 printed page hardcover
Price: US$ 49.95
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Originally posted by Jester
JUDY
just Sayin'
-Sik
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Hi Truekill,
>and it was 2x MG151/15 thats a 15mm not a 20mm
Hm, the Dornier Einbauzeichnung (installation drawing) actually makes no mention of the exact calibres. Karl-Heinz Regnat in his book on the type quotes the Baubeschreibung 3.5.1944 (type description) as allowing both, with 200 rounds regardless of the calibre.
This actually makes sense as the gun was the same and just the barrel was differnt. The 20 mm barrel actually was shorter, so anywhere the MG151/15 fit, the MG151/20 would fit, too.
>and who need rear view when u were in the fastest prop plane made during WWII
Hm, some people might be unsporting enough to attack me while I climb :-)
>but the first test flight took place about a week before the war ended.
Actually, when the war ended, series production was already underway.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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DO335 from every book i have read it was the fastest prop plane made in WWII... and for quite a time after.
i always wanted the condor for the torpedo runs.. which i have yet to find a mention of it being from below 200 feet. mostly much higher or in a real fast dive. also they had a plan for it to bomb the panama canal, that's range baby.
the he111 is truly needed.
the g stuka will never be implemented, been talked about so much is it almost as tired as the "perk the la7" debate
the salamander from many accounts was actually faster than the 262, and more manueverable.
i mentioned a few of these in this thread back in 2003
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76714
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Originally posted by JB73
the g stuka will never be implemented, been talked about so much is it almost as tired as the "perk the la7" debate
I dissagree. The same thing could have been said about the Ki-84 prior to this Fall. I think that someday we'll see the Ju-87G and the IL-2M3. I imagine it will be later on after some more Tanks are tossed in there.
-Sik
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Salamander's much smaller, however. Much more compact. Has half the guns and probably only 60 rounds per fun. The compact space and the small wing/fuselage makes me think it would have half the range of the 262 (more of an interceptor, than a long range fighter)
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I imagine it will be later on after some more Tanks are tossed in there.
-Sik
Like Kurt maybe? :rofl
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Originally posted by Krusty
Salamander's much smaller, however. Much more compact. Has half the guns and probably only 60 rounds per fun. The compact space and the small wing/fuselage makes me think it would have half the range of the 262 (more of an interceptor, than a long range fighter)
first aircraft to use an ejection seat, about 60 pilots used it when shot down
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Originally posted by Raptor01
I was looking at a list of WW2 planes (they are missing alot of japanese planes though) and only took the german planes from the list that I thought would add something to the game that current versions cant already do. Im not the biggest expert on german aircraft and not sure what is different about a 190a3 and a5 as far as performance goes.
there were quite a few other planes as well. (staying away from the american planes cause i know someone somewhere will say "there are enough US planes as it is")
Early war planes for Russia (1939-1942)
Polikarpov I-16 Type 24 "Rata"
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/i16.jpg)
Entered service in April 1939
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/mig3.jpg)
Entered service in March 1941
Yakovlev Yak-1
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/yak1.jpg)
Entered service in February 1942
Lavochkin LaGG-3
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/lagg3.jpg)
Entered service in September 1939
Ilyushin Il-4
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/il4.jpg)
Entered service in 1939
Petlyakov Pe-2
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/pe2.jpg)
Entered service October 1940
Petlyakov Pe-8
(http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/img/techs/pe8.jpg)
Entered service in May 1940
hope HTC gets around to doing more planes from other countries soon. As far as performance and preferance goes I like the US planes, but they are so different in compareson to other countries planes. I want something totally new just to mess around with.
Now that would be one hell of an update!
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Originally posted by Raptor01
first aircraft to use an ejection seat, about 60 pilots used it when shot down
Not the first. The Do 335 was given that honor because you can't bail out of a pusher/puller prop setup (meat grinder, anyone?)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not the first. The Do 335 was given that honor because you can't bail out of a pusher/puller prop setup (meat grinder, anyone?)
Try the He 219 as being first.
The Do335 explosives that blew away the prop.
................
Raptor01, careful with yor claims or you will have to join that club a few others here are in, a couple just recently.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
WRONG
It was MG151/20s. The MG151s were out of production.
The Do 335V1 W.Nr. 230001, CP+UA, made its maiden flight on Oct 26 1943
You should by this book.
(http://www.monogramaviation.com/52-9.jpg)
Author: By J. Richard Smith, Eddie J. Creek & Thomas H. Hitchcock
ISBN#: 0-914144-52-9
Summary: 184 printed page hardcover
Price: US$ 49.95
Role : Fighter
In-Service Date : November 1944
Manufacturer : Dornier-Werke G.m.b.H.
Number Produced : Unknown
Crew : 1
Length : 13.85 meters
Height : 5.00 meters
Empty Weight : 7400 kilograms
Operational Weight : 9600 kilograms
Wing Span : 13.80 meters
Wing Aspect Ratio : Unknown
Wing Area : 38.50 square meters
Engine : 2x Damlier-Benz DB 603A-2 (1750 hp)
Max Speed : 770 kph @ 6400 meters
Cruising Speed : 685 kph @ 7100 meters
Climb : 552m per minute
Service Ceiling : 11400 meters
Range : 1380 kilometers
Fuel Capacity : Unknown liters
Machinegun Armament : None
Cannon Armament : 1x 30mm MK 103 (Propeller Hub - 70 rounds)
2x 15mm MG 151/15 (Nose - 200 rounds each)
Payload : 500kg (Internal)
Gunsight : Revi C/120
Avionics : Fug 25a IFF
Pilot Armor : Yes
Self-Sealing Fuel Tanks : Yes
Armored Windscreen : Yes
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while it's true that the russians were innovators in ejection seat technology it took the west to perfect them. the russians couldn't quite get the sequence correct. step 1 ignite ejection seat charges. step 2. eject can..o..py..... oops. demetri, igor doesn't look so good. :D
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Sure, what ever you say. You were wrong on the date of the first flight and you are wrong on the MG151/15.
Answer me this: why would, at that stage of the war, would the Germans mount a weaker weapon that was out of production? Don't think too hard now.
No Do335 got over 750kph in testing. There is a graph on pg 171. > another error by your source :)
In service date? What unit?
It had 2 DB603 engines but the front was an A-2 and the rear one was a QA-2. > another error by your source :).
There was also the DB601E-1 and 603QE-1 fitted. > another error by your source :)
What is a Revi C/120? > another error by your source? :)
I bet you believe the 109K-4 had cowl mounted Mg151 weapons as well.
You need to find better reference sources, TK.
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aw heck it doesn't matter anyway...
we all agree the 335 is one of the coolest looking planes out there hehehehehehhe
or should i say evil looking muhahahaha
the salamander was smurfy, but like i said, if i read right fast as all git out. pilots were deathly afraid to fly it though, because in the test flights there was no ejection seat, hence no way to bail withough getting sucked into the turbine.
IIRC it wasn't until the 3rd or 4th prototype the ejector seat was installed.
funny thing is i have found very little in the books i have about the salamander.
anyone have any good online resources? (im too poor to go buy a book)
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Answer me this: why would, at that stage of the war, would the Germans mount a weaker weapon that was out of production?
I dont know if MG151 was still in production, but on very good reason to mount it in the Do335 would be to closely match the balistics of the MK103, something the MG151/20 could not do.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Sure, what ever you say. You were wrong on the date of the first flight and you are wrong on the MG151/15.
Answer me this: why would, at that stage of the war, would the Germans mount a weaker weapon that was out of production? Don't think too hard now.
No Do335 got over 750kph in testing. There is a graph on pg 171. > another error by your source :)
In service date? What unit?
It had 2 DB603 engines but the front was an A-2 and the rear one was a QA-2. > another error by your source :).
There was also the DB601E-1 and 603QE-1 fitted. > another error by your source :)
What is a Revi C/120? > another error by your source? :)
I bet you believe the 109K-4 had cowl mounted Mg151 weapons as well.
You need to find better reference sources, TK.
the gun type and everything else is on the frinkin website thats under the plane so thats what i beleave and that flight thing i saw it on the history ch. and they also said that it was the fastest prop plane that was built in WW2 so if u wanna get b1tchy at anyone get B1tchy at them cuz im not the one wrong i guess they are if its not true. and the Revi C/120 looks like a miss type for the ReviC/12D
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Originally posted by TrueKill
thats what i beleave and that flight thing i saw it on the history ch. /B]
TK, don't quote the History Channel "too" closely. They are notorious about getting the facts wrong on a lot of stuff if it makes for a good story.
The F8F Bearcat would most likely have been a better fighter.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
the gun type and everything else is on the frinkin website thats under the plane so thats what i beleave and that flight thing i saw it on the history ch. and they also said that it was the fastest prop plane that was built in WW2 so if u wanna get b1tchy at anyone get B1tchy at them cuz im not the one wrong i guess they are if its not true.
You believe what is said on the HC.:rofl :rofl :rofl
Every hear of the XP-47J?
Every hear of the P-51H? > 783kph@25,000ft
Ever hear of the Spiteful? Its top speed, 483 mph (777 km/h) at 21,000ft (6,400 m).
Since you like using web sites for a reference here is what another one says, "It's weapons bay was replaced by an additional fuel tank, and the two 15 mm MG151 cannon in the nose replaced by 20 mm MG151s."
Here is a webpage on the ONLY Do-335 left in the world. Note the weapons fitted. http://cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~vernalek/Do335/welcome.html
Also notice that it is an A-0.
The only one getting B1tchy is you TK.:) I bet if you lived at the North Pole, anyone could sell you a fridge.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
and who need rear view when u were in the fastest prop plane made during WWII
Just as long as it's not being chased by a P-51H, or the P-47M.
Republic's P-47M was in front-line service with the 56th FG before the war ended in Europe. NAA's P-51H was in front-line service when Japan surrendered.
P47M: 475 mph with underwing pylons, 480+ mph without.
P-51H: 487 mph.
XP-47J: 507 mph (development ceased to pursue XP-72)
XP-72: 499 mph (not even using WEP).
My regards,
Widewing
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Yep widewing is correct, the Do335 was merely one of the new class of 470+ mph prop fighters late in the war. Personally I dont think it would compete all that well against scores of more nimble single engine fighters of the same performance class. It could have been a great nightfighter though.
All of that was kinda pointless considering the 540mph Me262 and 580mpg P80 let alone the new German fighters in the 600mph class - including some modified 262s. It was a new age for fighters.
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Hi Grünherz,
>Yep widewing is correct, the Do335 was merely one of the new class of 470+ mph prop fighters late in the war. Personally I dont think it would compete all that well against scores of more nimble single engine fighters of the same performance class.
Well, the thing about the Do 335 is that it achieved very high speeds at low to medium altitudes. Other high-speed fighters were really fast only at very high altitude.
It's all about engines anyway - replace the DB603E by the DB603L, and watch the Dornier gain yet more speed.
Still, jets were the way to go - there were actually plans on the drawing board to convert the Do 335 into a hybrid prop/jet :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Bah they're all immitators of the true great Aeronautical Engineer Kurt Tank!
:D
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Grünherz,
>Yep widewing is correct, the Do335 was merely one of the new class of 470+ mph prop fighters late in the war. Personally I dont think it would compete all that well against scores of more nimble single engine fighters of the same performance class.
Well, the thing about the Do 335 is that it achieved very high speeds at low to medium altitudes. Other high-speed fighters were really fast only at very high altitude.
It's all about engines anyway - replace the DB603E by the DB603L, and watch the Dornier gain yet more speed.
Still, jets were the way to go - there were actually plans on the drawing board to convert the Do 335 into a hybrid prop/jet :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I thought of that and there is some truth there but then again the Spiteful was faster at the same alt, the P51H did 440mph at a ridicoulsly low alt like 5k or spomehing so it wasnt much of a slouch anywhere. There was also an even more powerful P51H class on the way too. (L model I think)
I had always wondered about the prop/jet petential of Do335 - good to hear someody was thinking of doing it.
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Originally posted by HoHun
It's all about engines anyway - replace the DB603E by the DB603L, and watch the Dornier gain yet more speed.
Still, jets were the way to go - there were actually plans on the drawing board to convert the Do 335 into a hybrid prop/jet :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Yes the Do P232/3-06. There was also the Do P254 which was to be produced as the He 535.
There was also proposals for a twin , ala 109Z. Junkers was to produce it as the Ju 635.
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Don't forget the Austrailian entry. The Commonwealth CL-15 which was built around the mighty Griffon-61 and was a brilliant and totally homegrown project.
The English and Canadians had some logical and potent extrapolations of existing designs also.
The Hawker Seafury, deHavilland Hornet.
Had the war lasted all combatant nations had piston engined aircraft that were pushing the technological limits of these designs.
The United States had a piston/turbojet hybrid in the works also
in the form of the Ryan FR-1 Fireball for the US Navy. Grumman had the excellent F8F Bearcat in service and deployed at the end of hostilities with the F7F Tigercat ready to go.
Even the backwards soviets had interesting stuff based on stolen allied advances.
Germany and Japan would have kept up, but barely.
:D
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Hi Grunherz,
>I thought of that and there is some truth there but then again the Spiteful was faster at the same alt, the P51H did 440mph at a ridicoulsly low alt like 5k or spomehing so it wasnt much of a slouch anywhere.
Do you have actual speed data of the kind we have for most WW2 planes for any of the post-war monsters? That would be intersting to compare. Usually, I only find single figures that are not very informative by themselves.
About the only one for which I have seen a detailed speed breakdown is the F4U-4 (for which a BuAer data set exists), but apparently, this is not thought be be representative for service aircraft for some reason - or at least not for WW2 examples. I'm somewhat puzzled by that.
>I had always wondered about the prop/jet petential of Do335 - good to hear someody was thinking of doing it.
The interesting thing about the Do 335 is that it started out as high-speed bomber, and Major Schreiweis, the leader of the service trials unit was a bomber pilot. He considered the Do 335 obsolete from the moment he heard it was to be a propeller aircraft He considered the Ar 234 the much better aircraft, especially as the Do 335 was getting further and further delayed while the Arado was already in service.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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There is some data about the P51H bearking down the speed by alt, I dont know where it is.
The Spiteful numbers I saw also quated a deck speed of 410mph or so.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Try the He 219 as being first.
The Do335 explosives that blew away the prop.
................
Raptor01, careful with yor claims or you will have to join that club a few others here are in, a couple just recently.
Don't know about the first seat used, but I always thought
the Saab J-21 was the first to mount one. First flight 7/30/43.
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Damn Widwing beat me to it with the P47M. Well. I can still.....
MMMMMmmmmmmmMMMMMmmmmm
(http://www.dbmueller.com/warbirds/images/gabby2.jpg)